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	<title>Comments on: In the beginning man created God&#8230;..</title>
	<atom:link href="http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: Pop Hicken</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-36566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pop Hicken]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Sep 2009 05:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-36566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the idea, but it&#039;s all just myth isn&#039;t it?  It&#039;s disturbing to me that people treat it as if it were historical fact, in this time period.  However, we don&#039;t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater on ANY myth.  
For instance, 
just throwing this out as theory, 
but what if the Adam/Eve creation story, and other similar ones (change the names) come from a central myth, oral, and much older than anything written. This story portrays a time when man WAS animal: driven by instinct and environment.  As such it is a much more peaceful time, a time in the garden, until, when they become &#039;like us&#039; (the God(s)) they are forced into a world of opposites &#039;knowledge of good and evil&#039; and the basic necessity of societal survival instead, right to the first moment of noticing each other&#039;s differences (see Men Mars Women Venus, lol).  &quot;We&#039;re NAKED!!!&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea, but it&#8217;s all just myth isn&#8217;t it?  It&#8217;s disturbing to me that people treat it as if it were historical fact, in this time period.  However, we don&#8217;t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater on ANY myth.<br />
For instance,<br />
just throwing this out as theory,<br />
but what if the Adam/Eve creation story, and other similar ones (change the names) come from a central myth, oral, and much older than anything written. This story portrays a time when man WAS animal: driven by instinct and environment.  As such it is a much more peaceful time, a time in the garden, until, when they become &#8216;like us&#8217; (the God(s)) they are forced into a world of opposites &#8216;knowledge of good and evil&#8217; and the basic necessity of societal survival instead, right to the first moment of noticing each other&#8217;s differences (see Men Mars Women Venus, lol).  &#8220;We&#8217;re NAKED!!!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: And man said, let there be God &#171; Agnostic Atheism</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-1180</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[And man said, let there be God &#171; Agnostic Atheism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2007 04:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-1180</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Many religions hold to the belief that God created man but the reality is man was the one who probably created God.   Here&#8217;s my version of the Creation story. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Many religions hold to the belief that God created man but the reality is man was the one who probably created God.   Here&#8217;s my version of the Creation story. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: skywhale</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skywhale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 05:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-68</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just FYI, I&#039;ve never really done this before.  Normally, Pathwork spreads by word-of mouth among New Age type people who self-describe as spiritual seekers.  Often, they&#039;ve done some or a lot of therapy before they come to Pathwork, and Pathwork integrates that growth path with a spiritual aspect.  I just had this sense that maybe it would be a healing thing for people struggling with traditional Christianity to be exposed to, so I decided to reality-test that assumption.

As to the number of Pathworkers (we don&#039;t refer to them as &quot;followers&quot; -- it&#039;s a basic concept that everyone is responsible for themselves), there are about 4000 in Latin America and there it&#039;s growing fast.  Elsewhere, it&#039;s not in very good shape.  Probably 1000 total.

The main &quot;authority&quot; is the Pathwork Foundation, which has copyright to the Lectures and a trademark in the word, &quot;Pathwork.&quot;  They&#039;re a small group of nice people who, unfortunately, don&#039;t seem to be able to DO very much.  The organization is heavily dominated by women, who stress the passive acceptance aspects of the teachings, and as a result there&#039;s a vital energy component missing.  I&#039;m hoping that over time, I&#039;ll be able to bring some healthy male energy into the organization in a way that doesn&#039;t threaten and raise defenses.

Local centers all have their own authority dynamics, most likely more related to people&#039;s unfinished business with their parents than the teachings.

The good part is that any serious Pathworker understands that most people in the movement are struggling to assimilate the teachings.  It&#039;s very challenging stuff, and you can think you &quot;get&quot; it only to discover 5 years later that you were only &quot;getting&quot; what you were ready for at the time.  And, like any other teaching, it&#039;s susceptible to distortion.  Some people like to try to encapsulate it in the term &quot;self-responsibility,&quot; and then make sure everyone ELSE is owning their negative contributions to their lives.  Some people like to be as loving as they can be all the time, to the point of not confronting situations that really need to be confronted because they don&#039;t want to rock the boat.  My philosophy is &quot;get it all out in the open so we can really look at what we&#039;re really doing,&quot; but some of the &quot;old guard&quot; are afraid to put everything out on the table.  So -- it&#039;s in its early stages on the planet, and it&#039;s in flux.  When we all mature a little further, we may be able to put together a more functional way of delegating responsibilities and holding ourselves accountable.  I hope so, anyway.

BUT . . . none of that really matters, because in the final analysis, there&#039;s this voice speaking to us through the Lectures offering this unbelievable wealth of practical insight about life, and if you click with that -- if you&#039;re amazed by it, then the primary goal becomes trying to integrate as much of it as you can in this lifetime.

So that&#039;s why I suggest going to the Pathwork Foundation&#039;s list of Lectures (http://www.pathwork.org/lecturesObtaining.html) and just picking one that calls to you.  Just see what effect the Guide&#039;s voice has on you.  If it doesn&#039;t speak to you, end of story . . . If it does, beginning of story . . .

sw]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just FYI, I&#8217;ve never really done this before.  Normally, Pathwork spreads by word-of mouth among New Age type people who self-describe as spiritual seekers.  Often, they&#8217;ve done some or a lot of therapy before they come to Pathwork, and Pathwork integrates that growth path with a spiritual aspect.  I just had this sense that maybe it would be a healing thing for people struggling with traditional Christianity to be exposed to, so I decided to reality-test that assumption.</p>
<p>As to the number of Pathworkers (we don&#8217;t refer to them as &#8220;followers&#8221; &#8212; it&#8217;s a basic concept that everyone is responsible for themselves), there are about 4000 in Latin America and there it&#8217;s growing fast.  Elsewhere, it&#8217;s not in very good shape.  Probably 1000 total.</p>
<p>The main &#8220;authority&#8221; is the Pathwork Foundation, which has copyright to the Lectures and a trademark in the word, &#8220;Pathwork.&#8221;  They&#8217;re a small group of nice people who, unfortunately, don&#8217;t seem to be able to DO very much.  The organization is heavily dominated by women, who stress the passive acceptance aspects of the teachings, and as a result there&#8217;s a vital energy component missing.  I&#8217;m hoping that over time, I&#8217;ll be able to bring some healthy male energy into the organization in a way that doesn&#8217;t threaten and raise defenses.</p>
<p>Local centers all have their own authority dynamics, most likely more related to people&#8217;s unfinished business with their parents than the teachings.</p>
<p>The good part is that any serious Pathworker understands that most people in the movement are struggling to assimilate the teachings.  It&#8217;s very challenging stuff, and you can think you &#8220;get&#8221; it only to discover 5 years later that you were only &#8220;getting&#8221; what you were ready for at the time.  And, like any other teaching, it&#8217;s susceptible to distortion.  Some people like to try to encapsulate it in the term &#8220;self-responsibility,&#8221; and then make sure everyone ELSE is owning their negative contributions to their lives.  Some people like to be as loving as they can be all the time, to the point of not confronting situations that really need to be confronted because they don&#8217;t want to rock the boat.  My philosophy is &#8220;get it all out in the open so we can really look at what we&#8217;re really doing,&#8221; but some of the &#8220;old guard&#8221; are afraid to put everything out on the table.  So &#8212; it&#8217;s in its early stages on the planet, and it&#8217;s in flux.  When we all mature a little further, we may be able to put together a more functional way of delegating responsibilities and holding ourselves accountable.  I hope so, anyway.</p>
<p>BUT . . . none of that really matters, because in the final analysis, there&#8217;s this voice speaking to us through the Lectures offering this unbelievable wealth of practical insight about life, and if you click with that &#8212; if you&#8217;re amazed by it, then the primary goal becomes trying to integrate as much of it as you can in this lifetime.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s why I suggest going to the Pathwork Foundation&#8217;s list of Lectures (<a href="http://www.pathwork.org/lecturesObtaining.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.pathwork.org/lecturesObtaining.html</a>) and just picking one that calls to you.  Just see what effect the Guide&#8217;s voice has on you.  If it doesn&#8217;t speak to you, end of story . . . If it does, beginning of story . . .</p>
<p>sw</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: agnosticatheist</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[agnosticatheist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 02:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-66</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sw,

As I said, you&#039;re quite the web-evangelist for your &#039;pathway&#039;

BTW, how many followers do you all have?  What&#039;s your authority structure look like?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sw,</p>
<p>As I said, you&#8217;re quite the web-evangelist for your &#8216;pathway&#8217;</p>
<p>BTW, how many followers do you all have?  What&#8217;s your authority structure look like?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skywhale</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skywhale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-64</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry -- a &quot;model&quot; of how Pathworkers would interact.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry &#8212; a &#8220;model&#8221; of how Pathworkers would interact.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skywhale</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skywhale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 16:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-63</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[agnosticatheist,

Christians may tell you there&#039;s no contradiction but in my judgment, the concept of a God who discards his children if they don&#039;t believe what they&#039;re supposed to believe and the concept of a loving God can only coexist in a person who has a very immature understanding of love.  Pathwork is not going to be attractive to people who don&#039;t see an obvious contradiction there.

I also understand that all sorts of people offer the changes in their life as some kind of proof of what they believe.  So lewt&#039;s not dwell on that . . .

As far as the core beliefs, I&#039;ve laid out the core of the cosmology in post 7 and in the Wikipedia entry for Pathwork,  The remainder of the 3500 pages of material is about how to integrate the unconscious misconceptions and negative energies we carry and align them with Truth and Love.  A few core principles:

•  Through the law of attraction, we create all of our suffering as aresult of unconscious misalignments with Truth and Love.
•  All of our misalignments with Truth and Love are grounded in pride, selfwill and fear -- all of which are consequences of the Fall -- the corruption of our consciousness by the virus of contact with the negative life force.
•  A main process by which we grow is being rigorously honest, without shaming ourselves, about the motivations and attitudes we tend to hide from ourselves out of pride.
•  Another main process is by allowing ourselves to feel all our feelings without fixing or suppressing them.
•  If we ask for divine help in carrying out these two processes, we will receive it
•  It&#039;s hard work and it takes time.  For instance, the Guide says we ought not to expect significant improvements in our lives for at least two years after we begin the work.

So here&#039;s a small example of the process at work:  Along with my genuine desire to offer these teachings in the spirit of love, there are intertwined slight tendrils of a desire to prove myself superior -- to prove this both to you and to myself.  I recognize that if I fail to stay aware of this, it will provoke a rejecting response from you and other readers, no matter how I try to cover up that energy.  So I admit it to myself and you, to give my awareness a chance to integrate it -- to compare it with what else I know about the Universe -- and to give it less influence in our interactions.  That&#039;s a mode of how people who are really doing the work would relate to each other.

sw]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>agnosticatheist,</p>
<p>Christians may tell you there&#8217;s no contradiction but in my judgment, the concept of a God who discards his children if they don&#8217;t believe what they&#8217;re supposed to believe and the concept of a loving God can only coexist in a person who has a very immature understanding of love.  Pathwork is not going to be attractive to people who don&#8217;t see an obvious contradiction there.</p>
<p>I also understand that all sorts of people offer the changes in their life as some kind of proof of what they believe.  So lewt&#8217;s not dwell on that . . .</p>
<p>As far as the core beliefs, I&#8217;ve laid out the core of the cosmology in post 7 and in the Wikipedia entry for Pathwork,  The remainder of the 3500 pages of material is about how to integrate the unconscious misconceptions and negative energies we carry and align them with Truth and Love.  A few core principles:</p>
<p>•  Through the law of attraction, we create all of our suffering as aresult of unconscious misalignments with Truth and Love.<br />
•  All of our misalignments with Truth and Love are grounded in pride, selfwill and fear &#8212; all of which are consequences of the Fall &#8212; the corruption of our consciousness by the virus of contact with the negative life force.<br />
•  A main process by which we grow is being rigorously honest, without shaming ourselves, about the motivations and attitudes we tend to hide from ourselves out of pride.<br />
•  Another main process is by allowing ourselves to feel all our feelings without fixing or suppressing them.<br />
•  If we ask for divine help in carrying out these two processes, we will receive it<br />
•  It&#8217;s hard work and it takes time.  For instance, the Guide says we ought not to expect significant improvements in our lives for at least two years after we begin the work.</p>
<p>So here&#8217;s a small example of the process at work:  Along with my genuine desire to offer these teachings in the spirit of love, there are intertwined slight tendrils of a desire to prove myself superior &#8212; to prove this both to you and to myself.  I recognize that if I fail to stay aware of this, it will provoke a rejecting response from you and other readers, no matter how I try to cover up that energy.  So I admit it to myself and you, to give my awareness a chance to integrate it &#8212; to compare it with what else I know about the Universe &#8212; and to give it less influence in our interactions.  That&#8217;s a mode of how people who are really doing the work would relate to each other.</p>
<p>sw</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: agnosticatheist</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-61</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[agnosticatheist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 14:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-61</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sw,

If you talk to most Christians, they will tell you that the Bible and their beliefs are w/o contradiction.

I do appreciate the fact that &quot;the Path&quot; changed your life &quot;in a lot of wonderful ways.&quot;  I blogged about this issue in my most recent blog.  However, all religions can make this claim.

Since I probably won&#039;t take the time to read the guide, please give me a short summary in bullet points of the core beliefs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sw,</p>
<p>If you talk to most Christians, they will tell you that the Bible and their beliefs are w/o contradiction.</p>
<p>I do appreciate the fact that &#8220;the Path&#8221; changed your life &#8220;in a lot of wonderful ways.&#8221;  I blogged about this issue in my most recent blog.  However, all religions can make this claim.</p>
<p>Since I probably won&#8217;t take the time to read the guide, please give me a short summary in bullet points of the core beliefs.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: skywhale</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skywhale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 10:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-57</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, first of all, it&#039;s not really about Eva, it&#039;s about the Guide.  Eva&#039;s personality didn&#039;t operate at the level of the Lectures  -- the Guide actually said once that if people doubted the Lectures were channeled, they ought to just consider the difference between Eva in her normal state and the consciousness expressed in the teachings.

Secondly, I&#039;m not going to take on the burden of &quot;proving&quot; Pathwork.  I will say that I find it to be utterly and completely consistent internally, and that I and my life have changed in a lot of wonderful ways since I started walking the Path.  What I&#039;m saying to you and to anyone else reading is, consider not wasting your time knocking down the religions that obviously don&#039;t make sense, and instead taking the time to study this material a little bit.  I don&#039;t think you&#039;ll find anything contradictory or absurd in it, and I&#039;m willing to engage in a dialogue with you should you happen to come away with a different first impression.

If that invitation speaks to you or anyone else, great.  If it doesn&#039;t, then it doesn&#039;t.  Are you all right with that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, first of all, it&#8217;s not really about Eva, it&#8217;s about the Guide.  Eva&#8217;s personality didn&#8217;t operate at the level of the Lectures  &#8212; the Guide actually said once that if people doubted the Lectures were channeled, they ought to just consider the difference between Eva in her normal state and the consciousness expressed in the teachings.</p>
<p>Secondly, I&#8217;m not going to take on the burden of &#8220;proving&#8221; Pathwork.  I will say that I find it to be utterly and completely consistent internally, and that I and my life have changed in a lot of wonderful ways since I started walking the Path.  What I&#8217;m saying to you and to anyone else reading is, consider not wasting your time knocking down the religions that obviously don&#8217;t make sense, and instead taking the time to study this material a little bit.  I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;ll find anything contradictory or absurd in it, and I&#8217;m willing to engage in a dialogue with you should you happen to come away with a different first impression.</p>
<p>If that invitation speaks to you or anyone else, great.  If it doesn&#8217;t, then it doesn&#8217;t.  Are you all right with that?</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: agnosticatheist</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[agnosticatheist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Mar 2007 04:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-47</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[sw,

It goes back to how would you prove any of what you&#039;re saying?  You feel that you have a system that makes sense.  So does the Christians, the Muslims, the Mormans, etc.  Even within those groups you have sub-systems that makes sense to those who believe them.  In Christianity, you have Calvinism and Arminianism.  They each explain difficulties to the satisfaction of those who believe them.

What makes your system of belief any different than theirs?  What makes Eva Pierrakos different than Joseph Smith or Mohamed or Paul?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sw,</p>
<p>It goes back to how would you prove any of what you&#8217;re saying?  You feel that you have a system that makes sense.  So does the Christians, the Muslims, the Mormans, etc.  Even within those groups you have sub-systems that makes sense to those who believe them.  In Christianity, you have Calvinism and Arminianism.  They each explain difficulties to the satisfaction of those who believe them.</p>
<p>What makes your system of belief any different than theirs?  What makes Eva Pierrakos different than Joseph Smith or Mohamed or Paul?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: skywhale</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/03/04/creation/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[skywhale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Mar 2007 03:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/creation/#comment-37</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, an interesting reverse angle on that is that we didn&#039;t &quot;evolve&quot; into humans -- we &quot;devolved&quot; into humans.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, an interesting reverse angle on that is that we didn&#8217;t &#8220;evolve&#8221; into humans &#8212; we &#8220;devolved&#8221; into humans.</p>
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