We humans chose sin over God. God gave Adam and Eve the choice between eternal life with Him, and knowledge born out of disobedience (forbidden fruit). In the beginning, man had God by his side, and sin (the world as we know it; the world Adam and Eve chose to enter) was beyond our grasp- at least, that’s how it was supposed to be. God told us not to do it and we did it anyway.

Now you can say that a truly benevolent God would not have created man in this way. He would not have given man curiosity, desire, the capacity to be disobedient, etc. But can any of us imagine ourselves without that power of choice?

I am aware that it sounds like I’m claiming that knowledge is sin. That’s not what I’m trying to say. I like knowledge. But our desire for knowledge BEYOND God separated us from God. The more we know, the more choices we get to make in life, and the easier it is to grow more and more distant from God.

God forgives us for that distance. When Jesus was raised on the cross he cried out, “Father, why have you forsaken me?” He felt the pain of our sinful world- not just one person’s sin, but EVERYONE’S sin. In essence, he became sin. He bore the cry of everyone’s heart, everyone who ever asked, “why have you forsaken me?” It killed him- he died for our sins.

As a Christian, I sin against God everyday. When I’m around non-Christian friends I very rarely have the courage to bring up the subject of God. Even deciding to make this post was a difficult decision for me, because I’m a very shy, not-confident person. But the indescribable joy of following Christ, which all true Christians experience, gives me the courage to speak up about my beliefs.

“If there is a God, and I dont beleve, then this is the way he made me, who are you to change his plans for me?”

Something many people tend to forget is the fact that this is not a one-way relationship. God loves us, and if we want to experience his love, we have to try our best to love him back. The bible tells us to put God over everything in our lives. Christianity as a whole is obviously failing in that. It’s so easy to fall in this world, to trust finances and ambition over God’s plan, to focus on doubt instead of faith. If we stray too far we forget what it’s like to live by God’s word.

But the joy of God’s grace keeps us strong. It gives Christians capacity for faith, something that completely defies the logic and science that we’re all so attached to. It gives them the courage to enter non-Christian communities such as this one, just for the opportunity to try to express our feelings.

God created us to be by His side. Humanity chose to leave it, but he’s giving us a second chance. The role of the Christian is not to change anyone’s path, but to encourage them to seek God’s path on their own. It’s completely up to the individual to take that leap of faith, just as it was completely up to the first man to defy God. Choice! It’s a bitch, but we can’t live without it.

Looks like your a “glass is half empty” kind of person eh? When you make a list of things to be thankful/unthankful for, the negative side must be huge. :>)

Infect1truth

If there is a “god,” then the christian / judeo / islam “god” loves you with …

abscesses, acne, addictions, adenitis, adenoids, AIDS, albinism, allergies, ALS (Lou Gehrig’s disease), Alzheimer’s disease, amnesia, anemia, aneurysms, angina, anorexia nervosa, anthrax, anxiety attacks, aphasia, appendicitis, apoplexy, arteriosclerosis, arthritis, asphyxia, asthma, astigmatism, athlete’s foot, attention deficit disorder (ADD), autism, avalanches, back aches, bedsores, Bell’s palsy, beriberi, bipolar disorder (manic-depression), birth defects, blackouts, bladder infections, blemishes, blindness, blisters, blizzards, bloating, boils, bone cancer, bone spurs, botulism, bowlegs, breast cancer, brain cancer, breech presentations, Bright’s disease, brittle bone disease, broken bones, bronchitis, bruises, bulimia, bunions, bursitis, calcinosis, canker sores, cardiac dysrhythmia, cardiomyopathy, carpal tunnel syndrome, cataracts, cellulitis, cerebral palsy, cervical cancer, cervicitis, chapped lips, chickenpox, chlamydia, choking, cholera, cleft lips and palates, clubfoot (talipes), cold sores, colic, colitis, colon cancer, color blindness, comas, common cold, concussions, congestion, congestive heart failure, conjunctivitis, constipation, convulsions, coronary occlusions, coughs, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, cyclones, cystic fibrosis, cystitis, cysts, dandruff, dangerous plants and animals, deafness, deformities, dehydration, delirium, delirium tremens, delusions, dementia, dental problems, depression, dermatitis, detached retinas, deviated septums, diabetes, diaper rash, diarrhea, diphtheria, dislocated joints, dizziness, Down’s syndrome, droughts, dysentery, dyslexia, dysphagia, dysphasia, dysuria, ear infections, earthquakes, Ebola virus, ectopic pregnancies, eczema, edema, elephantiasis, embolisms, emphysema, encephalitis, endocarditis, endometriosis, enteritis, epidemics, epididymitis, epilepsy, Epstein-Barr virus, erectile dysfunction (ED), excessive ear wax, fainting, fallen arches (flat foot), farsightedness (hyperopia), fevers, fibrillation, fibromyalgia, fibrosis, fistulas, flatulence, floods, frostbite, gallstones, ganglions, gangrene, gastrinomas, gastritis, gastroenteritis, germs, gingivitis, glaucoma, goiter, gonorrhea, gout, granuloma, Graves’ disease, halitosis, hallucinations, hay fever, headaches, heart attacks, heartburn, heart murmurs, hematomas, hemiplegia, hemophilia, hemorrhages, hemorrhagic fever, hemorrhoids, hepatitis (A,B&C), hernias, herniated and slipped disks, herpes, hiccups, high blood pressure (hypertension), HIV, hives, Hodgkin’s disease, humpbacks (kyphosis), Huntington’s chorea, hurricanes, hydrocephalus, hyperactivity, hypercholesterolemia, hyperemia, hyperglycemia, hyperthermia, hyperthyroidism, hypertonicity, hyperuricemia, hypochondria, hypoglycemia, hypothermia, hypothyroidism, impacted teeth, incontinence, indigestion (dyspepsia), infarctions, infections, infertility, infestations, inflammations, influenza, insanity, insomnia, iritis, irritable bowels, ischemia, itches, jaundice, Karposi’s sarcoma, keratitis, keratosis, kidney failure, kidney stones, knock-knees, labor pains, laryngitis, Legionnaires’ disease, leprosy, lesions, lethargy, leukemia, lice, lipidosis, lipomas, liposarcoma, liver cancer, lockjaw/tetanus, lordosis, low blood pressure (hypotension), lumbago, lung cancer, lupus, Lyme disease, lymphangitis, lymphedema, lymphocytosis, lymphomas, macular degeneration, malaria, malocclusions, manias, mastitis, measles, melancholia, melanomas, meningitis, menorrhagia, menstrual cramps, mental illnesses, mental retardation, migraines, miscarriages (spontaneous abortions), mononucleosis, monsoons, morning sickness, multiple personality disorder, multiple sclerosis, multiple system atrophy, mumps, muscle cramps and spasms, muscular dystrophy, myalgia, myasthenia gravis, myelitis, narcolepsy, nausea, nearsightedness (myopia), necrosis, nephritis, nephrosis, nervous breakdowns, nervous tics, neuralgia, neuritis, neuroses, night blindness, nosebleeds, obesity, osteitis, osteodystrophy, osteoporosis, otitis, ovarian cancer, Paget’s disease, pain, palsy, pancreatic cancer, paralysis, paranoia, parasitosis, Parkinson’s disease, pericarditis, periodontitis, peritonitis, phantom pain, pharyngitis, phlebitis, phobias, pimples, pinched nerves, plagues, pleurisy, pneumonia, poisons, polio, Pott’s disease, premature births, premenstrual syndrome (PMS), prions, prostate cancer, psoriasis, psychoses, psychosomatic illnesses, ptomaine poisoning, pulled muscles, quicksand, rabies, rashes, Raynaud’s disease, resistance to curative drugs, retinitis, retinitis pigmentosa, retroviruses, Reye’s syndrome, Rh incompatibility, rheumatic fever, rheumatism, rhinoviruses, rickets, riptides, Rocky Mountain spotted fever, rubella, ruptures, salmonella poisoning, sandstorms, sarcomas, scabies, scarlet fever, schizophrenia, sclerosis, scoliosis, scurvy, seizures, senility, septicemia, severe thunder storms, shingles, shock, sickle-cell anemia, skin cancer, sleep apnea, smallpox, sneezes, sore throats, sores, spastic colons, speech disorders, spina bifida, sprains, stillbirths, stomach cancer, strep throats, strokes, styes, sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), sunburn, sunstroke, swelling, syphilis, tabes, tardive dyskinesia, Tay-Sachs disease, teething pains, temper tantrums, tartar, tendinitis, testicular cancer, thrombosis, tidal waves, tinnitus, TMJ, tonsillitis, tooth decay, torn cartilage, tornadoes, Tourette’s syndrome, toxemia, toxic shock syndrome, transplant rejection, trauma, tremors, trench foot, trichinosis, tropical storms, tuberculosis, tumors, tunnel vision, typhoid fever, typhoons, typhus, ulcers, uremia, urethritis, uterine cancer, vaginitis, varicose veins, vertigo, viruses, vomiting, warts, whooping cough, wounds, yeast infections, yellow fever…

Hitler was a Catholic, not an atheist. I suggest reading Mein Kampf, where he speaks on how God had commanded him to do what he did. Also, while you accuse someone else of intellectual dishonesty, you seem to be falling into that trap yourself. You estimate that the Crusaders killed “only” a few thousand people, and continue on to say that these people were simply “calling” themselves Christians, which smells to me of the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. However…

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#European

According to that link, the estimates of the number of people killed in the Crusades is in the millions, not the “few thousands”. Not only that, but Stalin and especially Mao didn’t “systematically murder and torture” as Hitler did, deaths on their parts, especially under Mao, where due to starvation. Not to “soften up” these deaths, but those are the facts.

Oh, and keep in mind that you have to add the millions of Native Americans, Asians and Africans that were killed by Christians in their process of “Christianizing” the entire world. It was either “convert or die”, and you can rest assured that the numbers who did the later reside in the millions, as European colonialization went on for a period of about 400 years.

I think the comparison is somewhat true. In our history, namely in the Conquest of Canaan, the Israelites were repeatedly ordered by God to kill every man, woman, child, and infant of entire people groups. So its not like we are a religion of peace that is against genocide, its just that God hasn’t asked us to do it recently.

This is untrue. You should be more intellectually honest when posting such slander on other people’s beliefs, etc.
Not very nice.

Also more murder and human suffering has resulted in the past 100 years from atheistic totalitarian regimes than in the past 2000 years of Christendom.

p.s.
the salem witch trials were horrible, but involved only about 20 people killed by loonies calling themselves Christens. The crusades were horrible but went on for countless years and involved only a few thousand people killed by various loonies calling themselves Christian.
Compare that to the countless millions upon millions of people systematically murdered and tortured under Stalin, Mao and Hitler, and I’ll take religion any day.

If there is a God, and I dont beleve, then this is the way he made me, who are you to change his plans for me?

Nothing like bible logic to fight bible logic.

It’s not that I deny god, I just havent accepted any of them. -me.

“with all the isogesis, exegesis, I’m-a-Jesus, you’re-a-Jesus…”

Love that. I’ve got the Dr Pepper tune in my head now.

Glad that my output is resonating with you, and giving you things to think about. That is, more than anything, what I want to happen. I’m not looking to convert anyone to/from anything. And I’m very happy if anyone stays in the faith, albeit with a better grounding for having questioned it deeply.

If you do happen on absolute truth, do share. Meanwhile, keep up the inquiries.

I also wanted to mention here that reading your thoughts brings ab out echoes of various things that I have thought, and frequently continue to consider. Clearly, I’m not “deconverted” or immersed (could I say “baptised”? ) in the deconversion process. At the same time, my father’s constant reminder to me to always be searching for truth comes back to me again and again.

Thanks for forcing me to dust off my thinking cap, and examine and re-examine not just what it is that I believe, but why I believe it. – Tim

P.S. On the odd chance that I ever happen to stumble upon absolute truth, I’ll do my best to stop by and drop it off for everyone’s benefit. Until then, I’m more likely to ask more questions and read more from others than to try to teach anyone here anything about a theological position.