Yes, the Bible claiming its own legitimacy is circular reasoning. What about all of the historical, archaeological and textual analysis evidence that supports the Bible? If you only point out problems that appear with accepting the validity of Scripture, but ignore all other forms of supporting its claim, then you’re only looking at half the picture. Assuming the Bible does have its flaws (and I’m not saying it does, but let’s assume your claims are correct), then by what other means can one hope to find the truth about God? For better or worse, when God revealed himself, he gave us a book.

Just a couple weeks ago there was a documentary on TV about Kathryn Kuhlman, it was really fascinating. My aunt used to listen to her radio broadcasts, and I’ve seen the Angelus Temple but I’ve never been inside.

Check out the documentary on Lonnie that I linked to, above. He was at Calvary Costa Mesa just before my time there - mid-70s to mid-80s. Turns out that despite all the “miracles” he performed, and his devoutness, he was a deeply closeted gay man and died of AIDS. He was instrumental in birthing both the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard movements, but in the official histories of those churches/denominations, his name has been totally erased. At his funeral at the Crystal Cathedral, Chuck Smith got up and disrespected him, saying how he’d wasted his potential for god because of disobedience.

I went to see the documentary a few years ago at a Newport Beach film festival, and pretty much the whole audience were current or former hard-core Calvary attendees. By the end of the production, there was hardly a dry eye in the house. It was kind of amazing.

I met Chuck Smith … I think maybe 3 or 4 times. Is he still around? He has got to be in his 80s by now.

He is and last I heard (six months ago) he was still preaching and refusing to step down as head pastor, despite some feelings that it was long past time (this is what I got from a friend who still attends there). He was so totally certain that he and his congregation would be raptured 15 or 20 years ago, he may be hanging on, stubbornly refusing to believe he was wrong about the End Times occurring during his tenure in the pulpit.

His son, Chuck Jr., was being groomed to take over Big Calvary but he got involved in the postmodern movement many years ago and took his church (south Orange County Calvary) into some areas that Chuck Sr. firmly believes are apostasy. They finally took the church away from Chuck Jr., who has long struggled with serious depression. So, I guess there’s no “logical” successor to Chuck Sr.

**However, God is not human. God was before all, and holds all in his hands. I understand the view of who would want to follow this creep(I’m paraphrasing of course). But if you really take an honest look at his own nature and character, he is well within who he is to do what he does. ** If God is not human, and thus that far above us, it would be near impossible to look at His character. My sense of justice and morality tell me that it is wrong to make people eternally suffer, and if God finds both moral and just, then I have no grounds on which to understand Him.

** So to answer your ending question, it doesn’t appeal to most people by our nature.** That doesn’t answer my question at all, given my question’s context. Again, how is a jealous, narcisstic deity who punishes those who don’t believe in Him supposed to appeal to anyone? That comes too close to an abusive relationship (especially if you’re going to say most come to God to avoid punishment), and of course it doesn’t appeal to anyone’s nature. It has nothing to do with selfishness and pride. I wouldn’t follow a human who displayed those characteristics.

Heather, an honest and learned Christian does not know the age of the earth. Many try to go through geneology and find the 6ooo years. In all honesty, it could be millions of years old.

I agree that McDowell’s books are geared toward believers. They are a tool to understand and uphold our faith.

To apply my statements to a human would indeed label them as you’ve said. However, God is not human. God was before all, and holds all in his hands. I understand the view of who would want to follow this creep(I’m paraphrasing of course). But if you really take an honest look at his own nature and character, he is well within who he is to do what he does. 2Peter says he desires none to persish. But in Ephesians we see that he has a perfect will to be done. In this will he has made decisions to do things against his immediate desire(i.e. Israel’s constant defeat((when they turn from him)), Jesus’ crucifixion, present day persecution, etc.). It is all one big “story” in a sense. But in the end it should turn us back to him.
Appealing? Sure, a lot of times Christianity seems quite the opposite. Why would anyone join a group where molestations seem to be normal(false)? Why would anyone follow a being who allows them to experience suffering? I’m sure there are even more questions as well. Jesus made it clear that the Christian life would not be all fun and games. “Asthe world hated me, so it wil hate you.” Paul talks about a Christian training like an athlete who buffits his body and makes it his slave. Unfortunately most evangelism is geared to make it look like an easy ticket through life. And to avoid punishment, uh yeah partly. Most people come to Christ for that reason. They realize they can do nothing to save themselves, and therefore trust in him to be their savior. This should lead to the right reasons for following him as their lord. This is not to avoid suffering or punishment. It is a response to what he has called us to do, and an act of worship for who he is and what he has done. So to answer your ending question, it doesn’t appeal to most people by our nature. We are naturally selfish and prideful. Naturally, I don’t want to submit to any authority, let alone one who I’ve never visibly seen. Really take time to study who God is and his Character and where he has the right and authority to do what he does, and it will be clearer. “Desiring God” really helps with this. You cam read it and accept it or reject it, but it’s a tool that’s out there.

**First, on John 1. Jesus is the Word. It isn;t referring to the Bible. If your “logic” holds then I, as a Christian, should be worshipping lambs too** Everyone here would agree that John 1 isn’t referring to the Bible. Or at least most. But take the Christians who say that Genesis 1-3 is literal truth, or that the Earth is only 6,000 years old. Those are the Christians that come across as worshiping the Bible. These are the same people who are horrified if you question one word in the Bible, because it’s ‘The Word of God.’

**Second, on McDowell, you all seem to think the majority of Christians who step back and examine their faith abandon it.** The reaction to McDowell is a reaction to fundamentalists. I know many Christians who do not hold the Bible as inerrent, yet are very firm in their faith. Based on what I’ve read by him, and what others have said, his books are written for those who already believe.

** He is a jealous god and with every right. He will stop at nothing to be glorified** Apply that description to a human, and the person comes across as narcisstic.

**May God show himself to you before it’s too late. ** And can you understand that this attitude is exactly why most do reject Christianity? Because that’s saying accept God to avoid hell, and then it’s all about avoiding punishment.

In those two paragraphs alone, look at how you’ve described God: Jealous, His glory above all else, and punishing those who don’t accept Him. How is that supposed to appeal to most people?

Wow, now I see! God is not simply a petty vindictive crybaby but a sociopathic, narcissistic, completely horrific beast as Dan Barnett has so clearly explained.

Sorry, I will never accept moral instructions from beasts or from their supporters.

Sheesh! I have true pity for any child who is abused by being subjected to the disgraceful beliefs of those like Dan Barnett.

What is it about these hyper”religious” whack jobs that they completely ignore the messages of peace and brotherhood in their own New Testament?

And how do they manage to steal all the media attention and political support from the many rational and benevolent believers?

No, I never went to Costa Mesa. I attended Calvary Chapel in Albuquerque, New Mexico between about 1984 and 1993. Around 1990 or so it was billed as the fastest growing church in the United States - and I believe it. It just got too huge too fast, and I left for another Church.
Yes, I remember Lonnie Frisbee, but I don’t think I ever met him. He was from the Jesus Hippie movement of the early 1970s when Chuck Smith was rounding up young hippie outcasts. Maybe he did come to town, I remember seeing Kathryn Kulhman several times when she came to town on a miracle crusade, and she always seemed to have a hippie entourage with her. That’s the crowd I was wrapped up in, but I was nowhere near California at the time. I met Chuck Smith … I think maybe 3 or 4 times. Is he still around? He has got to be in his 80s by now.