slapdash, I think the text of Genesis is even weirder than that. I think Genesis implies that the Tree had supernatural powers, not Adam or Eve. If not, why was YHVH so concerned about them eating of the Tree of Life – which would cause them to live forever?

slapdash continues:
“God had to be the author and creator of everything that is ‘fallen’ in this world. ”

Proponents of ID have created a great escape hatch for God in this instance. IDers will look at the beauty and complexity of the world and say that such an amazing universe is obvious testamony of a loving designer. When obvious flaws in this design are pointed out, like hurricanes, rogue asteroids, birth defects (an endless list, really), the IDer will pull out the trump card – the Fallen world due to Adam’s Sin.

In other words, the IDer is having cake and eating it too.

I am genuinely curious about how Adam’s and Eve’s sin of eating fruit was transmitted through to all other living creatures, creating parasites, cancers, tornadoes, and earthquakes, and every other ‘bad’ thing in this world that we shrug off and attribute to living in a “fallen world”?

Quite literally, what was the mechanism? One act of disobedience somehow, magically or supernaturally, sent the *entire* system into convulsive death throes?

How could Adam and Eve have done this unless they had supernatural powers?

This has become such a “duh!” moment for me that I can’t believe I used to blithely accept the fallen world argument. I was never willing to consider that God himself created cells that could become cancerous. Weather patterns that could kill people. Creatures whose survival depends on the death of another living creature, etc.

God had to be the author and creator of everything that is ‘fallen’ in this world. I don’t see any other way around this.

Oh, I didn’t have to look it up. I already knew it. I only asked to see if you could learn.

As to Jesus’ existence (let alone divinity) I don’t confuse textual criticism with historicity or higher criticism. While they can overlap, they are much different fields with much different questions.

So now with this additional information that you looked up, you are ready to admit that in terms of history that Jesus Christ is divine and Holy Deity? That history does recognize Jesus and he did what he said he did by documentation and history accounts of his existence.

Rose Red said : “Dan, with all due respect…calm down! it makes people immediately defensive-not a good situation in which to debate about the Bible.” So that is a bad thing?

They are claiming there is no God or no such thing as Jesus and such. They better be ready to defend that position. I don’t understand when you say that I am shouting on a keyboard. That doesn’t make sense.

When someone in a public forum is in“debate” about the Bible’s validity they are literally declaring war against God. They are storing up the wrath of God. We are held accountable for our actions. They are blaspheming when they speak against him, Luke 22:65. Breaking the third commandment is not wise for us to do. So do you hug a pedophile that has no remorse?

Rose Red, I will let you know how to preach: law to the proud and grace to the humble. That is the exact reason for Matthew 7:6 “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” If you just talk about Gods mercy then you will not reach people that need the savior. You will just get a bunch of people to “invite Jesus into their heart” and not get any true repentant souls.

Is this shouting? The Bible refers to the fate of the unsaved with such fearful words as the following: Shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), Everlasting punishment” (Matthew 25:46), Weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51), Fire unquenchable” (Luke 3:17), Indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish” (Romans 2:8,9), Everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), Eternal fire…the blackness of darkness for ever” (Jude 1:7,13) Revelation 14:10,11 tells us the final, eternal destiny of the sinner: “He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone…the smoke of their torment ascended up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day or night.”

Martin Luther King Jr. said “Christians should not be thermometers that merely record and reflect the temperature of popular opinion. Christians should be like thermostats, responsible for transforming and setting the temperature or standards of society.”

God is teaching me all things when I continue my walk in life 1 john 2:27. I am very humble and grateful that I was chosen and I want to tell every one of you that I found something wonderful and God loves you this much. I truly wish you all the best in life and hold no ill will towards you at all. Without repentance and Jesus forgiveness of all your sinning, then you will perish. I will shout that from every mountain top until we are all saved.

Rose, it takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation, perfect love is a constant confronter. Acceptance and conformity are not Christian priorities. Romans 12:2

For Him,
Dan

I was being deliberately brief with Dan. It has been my (sad) experience that people of that mindset are more interested in telling than in learning. All I can do ask a question and hope that they go out and research on their own and discover. (They certainly will NEVER believe it if an atheist provides the information, no matter how founded it is.)

I secretly always hope they come back with an open-mind and say, “Hey, you were right, and I learned what I previously said was complete bollocks. Who knew that the McDowells of the world would be so disingenuous in their writing?”

But in order to be clearer–I was questioning Dan’s following claims:

1) The New Testament in fragments or partials within 25 years of the events;
2) 5,400 partial or complete manuscripts within 40 years of the events;
3) That the 5,400 manuscripts were in 19,000 languages.

Taking the first claim. The last record of history would be at the end of Acts, which has Paul headed off to Rome. Maybe 62-63 C.E. (We could also claim that the Revelation of the Apocalypse of John was the last recorded event, but I would leave it up to the various apologist as to what possible date that could be.)

So to be safe, say 64 C.E. This would mean we would need the New Testament in fragments or partials by 89-90 C.E.

Obviously, the first claim is untrue. No manuscripts are dated that early. (Although I am aware of Theide’s very questionable work, and the almost ridiculous claim of a sentence of Mark in the DSS.) I was looking for support for this claim by Dan.

I didn’t expect any. I didn’t get any.

Or, take it the other way, dating back from the earliest manuscript, P52. Which is dated to 150 C.E., +/- 25 years, or 125-175 C.E. This is a few partial words from the Gospel of John. A Book that the most judicious claim would place the last date of 36 C.E. Taking the latest date of John (36 C.E.) comparing to the earliest date for P52 (125 C.E.) we are still talking a period of 89 years. Nowhere near 25 years, of course.

Taking the second claim of 5,400 manuscripts within 40 years. As we can see above, we don’t have one (1) manuscript within twice that period, let alone 500 or 5000. I was looking for support for this claim by Dan.

I didn’t expect any. I didn’t get any.

As to the 19,000 languages for these non-existent manuscripts—well, I don’t think anything more needs be said.

As far as the last count I was aware was in use was 33,000 manuscripts. But the question, of course, is over what period of time. I think (but don’t quote me) this would be from the 13th or 14th Century back.

Look, by 100 C.E. we have none. By 200 C.E. we have 4 or 5. By 300 maybe a dozen. By 400 up to 120 or so. According to Aland, 230 by 600 C.E. (Dating is a range, so I am being non-specific.) Certainly, at some point we can say, “We have 5400 manuscripts,” although what date they use, I am uncertain. If they continue on in time, eventually they can say, “We have 33000 manuscripts.” All depends what the final date one wants to use.

Dan, the only thing I found close to your claim was here:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran3.htm

If you are truly looking for resources, I suggest Metzger’s “The Text of the New Testament.” (Never fear—a Christian.) If you are looking for on-line resources:

http://www.kchanson.com/ANCDOCS/greek/johnpap.html
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/bbl/rylands.htm
http://www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/ManuscriptsPapyri.html
http://www.cob-net.org/compare_uncials.htm

Oh, and if you want to learn of buildings named after atheists, here in Michigan we have

1) The Henry Ford
2) Henry Ford Hospital.

Now you know two. If you want places, we have “Disneyland” and “Disneyworld.” (And the irony of your mentioning “Lincoln Memorial” and not knowing a building named after an atheist is too funny. Lincoln was very probably an atheist who made very cryptic references to an “Almighty” to pacify theists in order to unite the country.)

From a two years worth of debating about things like this, i have learned that one of the best ways (so far) to talk about things is to ask questions and really listen to the answers. Of course I am not perfect, and so I don’t always do this myself, but I usually get the best debates when using this method.

And before you say that I am a luke-warm cup of water, let me say that I consider myself to be a fundamentalist Christian, albeit one who is interested in others view points. I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, full stop. However MANY people, including a few of my friends don’t think so, and thats fine. If God wants to convict them (and I am personally persuaded that He does) then He will do so, in His own time and in His own way.

From what I have seen, heard and read, people are not convinced of God’s existence by shouting.

I am not saying to back down, just to be slightly more calm, and you might get further…..or you might not, but at least you would have learned something!

Personally I would love to debate this subject with the people on this forum, but I have restricted internet acess and plenty of other things to do.

Shalom

~*RR

Funny I didn’t read that. Heather, Do you have proof of this claim you and Dagoods is making? I couldn’t find that part of the info. I have been looking though and there is nothing that I can find that says this at all. Can you or Dagoods point me in that direction?

“Those that say Jesus didn’t exist” Are you a part of this group Heather?

Heather are you here to try to induce doubt. Are you trying to defend the other side without stating your position because you believe that sitting on the fence, you will not get hurt? I have news for you, God says he will spew you out if you are lukewarm. Heather are you lukewarm? Do you believe in Jesus?