What’s the Point with Prayer?
June 4, 2007
Why pray to an omniscient god? After all, it by definition knows whatever you’re about to say already. There is absolutely nothing you can tell an omniscient god. There is no point in communicating your desires to it, because it knows already, even before you yourself are aware of them.
Rather, prayer must be a sort of recognition. By praying to a god, you recognize it as your god and show your devotion. But why this empty gesture? Surely an omniscient god would know this too? If a god knows everything there is to know, it most certainly knows your true feelings, and no amount of prayer will ever fool such a god into thinking you’re really devout when you’re actually not. God will shine through all your attempts at hiding your true self. If you think that your god values honesty, it would be best not to try, lest you be punished for your lies and dishonesty. So either prayer is an empty gesture, or it must be neither communication of desires nor recognition.
Perhaps it’s helpful to look at the circumstances in which ordinary people pray. The most devout pray every day, even several times a day. However, most ordinary believers do not. They are way to busy with their daily lives. Perhaps their interest in their god is not so great, or perhaps in their perception they do not constantly need to suck up to God. Rather, they turn to God in troubled times. When accident has chanced upon them, or when they’re about to go down a fork in the road and don’t know which to choose, or when a loved one dies, or other dramatic and defining events in their lives. This seems to suggest that prayer is more of an egoistic action, a call for help when an one feels like one is unable to help oneself. But isn’t prayer supposed to be about God, too? If prayer is purely for humans, what’s the point? Is God some kind of make-me-feel-good-machine, a happiness whore whom Jesus or another savior paid the ultimate price for, so that you don’t have to reach into your own pocket to pay for some comfort?
This has me genuinely puzzled. I haven’t thought much about this before, mainly because my family is pretty areligious (as in, no religious services, no prayer, even though I’ve many relatives that are theists). So I have not really been surrounded by praying believers much.
But there’s one further complication. Let’s pretend, for a moment, that there was some information that a god didn’t know that you could communicate to it through prayer. Recall that gods, at least the common monotheistic varieties, are not only omniscient and omnipotent but also omnibenevolent, meaning that they’re perfectly good or inclined to act in such a way as to bring about the maximum possible good. Now, pretend that there are things God can only know through prayer. So, in a weak moment you pray to God and communicate something to it that it didn’t know. Wouldn’t it be obliged to act on it? Given that it has an inclination for the perfectly good, this god, given this new information, would have to act on it unless this information was of such a kind that it didn’t at all alter God’s perception of the state of the world and how to make it better, which is unlikely. Given that people regularly confess crimes or dishonesty to God, if this was new to God it would be obliged to act on this new information for it to be omnibenevolent.
I’ve looked at this from several angles, and so far I can’t see what the purpose of prayer might be. I can’t find any purpose that would render prayer anything but an empty gesture. If any theists would like to enlighten me, please feel free.
- Simen
Entry Filed under: Simen. Tags: agnostic, atheism, christianity, faith, freethinking, prayer, religion, skepticism, spirituality.
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1.
HeIsSailing | June 4, 2007 at 10:53 pm
A common, and I think recent, excuse for prayer is that it helps align the believer with the will of God. I have heard that from the pulpit several times.
Translation: No matter how hard you pray, God will do nothing different then before. Accept what he is doing and deal with it.
2.
HeIsSailing | June 4, 2007 at 11:04 pm
My old Christian self would have said there are several purposes to prayer. Prayer is a way of humbling yourself to God (Deut 9:14, 2Chr 7:14), a way to thank God for all your blessings (all through Psalms), and to intervene with God for your needs (Luke 11:9).
My ex-Christian self says that it was a form of self meditation. Without prayer, the faithful fall away because they loose that concentration on the divine. There were many times when I prayed and pleaded to God for specific needs. After many repititions of asking God for help, I often felt that after a while I was merely reciting old creeds and talking to myself.
3.
Matt | June 4, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Heh. Oddly enough, I made a similar piece of writing just a few days ago. I also don’t understand the point of prayer.
http://mattcbr.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/prayer-whats-the-point/
4.
theconfusedchristian | June 5, 2007 at 12:52 am
Weird. This is the first blog I’ve read since also writting on prayer. It discusses a few of the same things you talk about and might answer some of your questions. Or, it might just tell you that as a Christian I question prayer as well.
http://www.theconfusedchristian.wordpress.com
5.
HeIsSailing | June 5, 2007 at 6:26 am
and I wrote a similar article on praying for miracles, and posted it only 2 minutes after simon posted this one. I took mine off when I saw Simen’s - I’ll post it later today I guess.
We all must have the *Power of Prayer* on our minds!
6.
Simen | June 5, 2007 at 9:09 am
People seem to have prayer on their minds, indeed. To be fair, this was written in early April for my blog. Here are some responses I got from Christians then:
In this commenter’s mind, prayer is a way to restrict one’s free will so as to think the same thoughts as God. It strikes me that if God intended humans to think the same thoughts as he does, he’d have created people without free will in the first place.
This sounds like some kind of mutual comforting: you reassure God, and God reassures you, in a kind of feedback loop. Since God knows all this already, it does sound kind of selfish.
This commenter prays to get God to help him get closer to God. Isn’t salvation supposed to be a challenge? If God wanted to help you more than he does, he would have done it without you praying for it.
7.
Radec | June 5, 2007 at 9:35 am
**HeIsSailing said “We all must have the *Power of Prayer* on our minds!”**
That’s funny, that statement, the “Power of Prayer” changed my life about 2 years ago, but not the way I think it was meant to. It was a pretty difficult time in my life, lots of prayer on my part, not many answers. I remember sitting in the pew listening to my minister tell our church about a bad car accident a member of ours was involved in. It was pretty serious, but after a few days she was recovering and how this is a great example of the “power of Prayer”. I remember thinking how CRAZY that was!! It wasn’t prayer, it was statistics! It was the car she was in, it was the medical attention she received..etc. Someone out there that day who didn’t get any “blessings” probably survived a similar crash, while another may have died! I always prayed thinking it was doing some good, and it was at that point I realized it wasn’t. Basically I asked the same question Simen asked, what’s the point.
8.
Heather | June 5, 2007 at 11:13 am
I think the response of prayer allowing one to have the same mind as God is the only one that makes sense, because prayer in an attempt to ask God to do something doesn’t. God does what He wants regardless of human input, and if He were influenced by prayer, that kind of makes Him like a candy machine. If you pray hard enough or sincere enough, God might be inclined to give you a hand, and that can lead to a lot of guilt of not praying hard enough (which probably happens anyway). Of course, praying to align one’s self with God’s will really only means that you’re trying to make yourself happy with the outcome — for it’ll happen regardless. And this only works if one works under the assumption that God is all-good and no matter what happens, it works out for the best (even if the ‘best’ is never apparent).
Or like the car accident example for the power of prayer — was it really prayer that did it? Does that mean God wouldn’t have made the healing ‘faster’ if there wasn’t prayer?
9.
cragar | June 5, 2007 at 11:26 am
As I often do, I went with my wife to a barbeque after her Sunday meeting with a number of JW guests. As always, someone does a prayer before we eat thanking Jehovah (God) for our food and for the companionship. I bow my head when this is going on and usually wonder, why aren’t we thanking the farmers that raised the chickens and plowed the fields for the vegetables we are about to eat? Or the truck drivers that got the food from the farm to our grocer? Or the grocer for putting chicken on sale this week?
My mind tends to wander while others are praying….
10.
Justin | June 5, 2007 at 11:42 am
The thing with prayer is that when people ask for a change in circumstances, they are assuming that they know what is best for themselves, when in reality, any Christian/Muslim/Jew would acknowledge that trust should be put in God.
There is a very therapeutic quality in such a realization.
11.
agnosticatheist | June 5, 2007 at 1:28 pm
BTW, here’s an earlier piece on this subject written by MysteryOfIniquity:
Prayer: Communion with yourself
aA
12.
Karen | June 5, 2007 at 1:41 pm
A common, and I think recent, excuse for prayer is that it helps align the believer with the will of God. I have heard that from the pulpit several times.
I agree, that seems to be the current interpretation. Interesting how different we think about prayer now, than believers did centuries ago when they really were “begging” for indulgences from on high. It’s almost like modern believers acknowledge that prayer doesn’t “work” in the traditional sense and so they have to come up with a different way to look at it.
This sounds like some kind of mutual comforting: you reassure God, and God reassures you, in a kind of feedback loop.
I had several emotional experiences involving prayer when I was a Christian. As I re-evaluated my belief, I went back and examined them to try and figure out - if this wasn’t a supernatural encounter - what was really happening?
I realized that the comfort and calm I felt after certain prayer times was a manifestation of what psychologists call “self-talk” - it’s almost like meditation, where you clear your mind and focus on something in a peaceful state. Doing that can bring about excellent results that have nothing to do with magic or god. I think that’s why people believe in the “power of prayer” - not because they may sometimes get “the right” answers to what they’re wishing for.
I bow my head when this is going on and usually wonder, why aren’t we thanking the farmers that raised the chickens and plowed the fields for the vegetables we are about to eat? Or the truck drivers that got the food from the farm to our grocer? Or the grocer for putting chicken on sale this week?
This really is a pet peeve of mine. Particularly when someone recovers from an illness or injury and people thank god! for a miracle without acknowledging that it took medical personnel and modern facilities and public investment in the scientific method to “create” that miracle. I hate it when credit is not given where it’s really due, because then we lose out on the greater good of establishing support for funding of research, etc.
13.
cragar | June 5, 2007 at 2:36 pm
This really is a pet peeve of mine. Particularly when someone recovers from an illness or injury and people thank god! for a miracle without acknowledging that it took medical personnel and modern facilities and public investment in the scientific method to “create” that miracle.
I am the same. And don’t even get started on the sports figures that constantly thank God or Allah or whomever, as if they had a rooting interest in the event going on.
I realized that the comfort and calm I felt after certain prayer times was a manifestation of what psychologists call “self-talk” - it’s almost like meditation, where you clear your mind and focus on something in a peaceful state
I used to be in sales, and occasionally an objection againt buying my product was they would want to “pray about it.” Now I don’t think they would end up getting a message from above giving them advice on how to spend their money. Most likely they would go over their budget, do the pros and cons and make an educated decision rather than a rash one.
14.
Simen | June 5, 2007 at 3:01 pm
Thanking gods for surviving an accident is the epitome of hypocrisy. It’s like thanking someone for deciding to stop beating you, while refusing to blame them for starting in the first place.
15.
Karen | June 5, 2007 at 3:41 pm
they would want to “pray about it.” Now I don’t think they would end up getting a message from above giving them advice on how to spend their money. Most likely they would go over their budget, do the pros and cons and make an educated decision rather than a rash one.
Well, in that case I guess “pray about it” was an effective euphemism!
Thanking gods for surviving an accident is the epitome of hypocrisy. It’s like thanking someone for deciding to stop beating you, while refusing to blame them for starting in the first place.
I once talked to a woman who swore that she prayed and god changed the path of a tornado so it avoided her house. She had a marvelous testimony about how her life was spared through the power of prayer.
What no one seemed to question was why god hated her neighbors so much that he drove the tornado through their houses like a bulldozer! I guess none of them were “righteous” or the answer would’ve been “god works in mysterious ways, and it’s not our place to question him” - ugh.
16.
Intergalactic Hussy | June 5, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Luckily I was raised Jewish and we never prayed like Xians do. So the idea was always quite silly. Some theists (or might I say deists) don’t pray, which at least makes sense within that realm of “logic”.
Anyone who gets on their knees and it’s not for some sexual pleasure (for any gender)…its just not necessary. Unless, of course, you’re re-tiling your kitchen.
17.
Intergalactic Hussy | June 5, 2007 at 7:45 pm
But reform Jewish.
18.
Simen | June 5, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Some theists (or might I say deists) don’t pray, which at least makes sense within that realm of “logic”.
No need to call them deists. Not praying is of course quite compatible with the idea of a personal god. A god that knows all doesn’t need explicit communcation either; it knows your every thought and has known since the dawn of time, billions of years before you thought it, so it has had all the time in the world to consider whether or not to oblige your selfish wishes or grant you some enlightenment.
19.
j scott wissman | June 5, 2007 at 9:43 pm
“I once talked to a woman who swore that she prayed and god changed the path of a tornado so it avoided her house. She had a marvelous testimony about how her life was spared through the power of prayer.
What no one seemed to question was why god hated her neighbors so much that he drove the tornado through their houses like a bulldozer! ”
I have heard this example too. (Echoing Kafka here
I suppose it turns Arrogance into a universal principle.
20.
Karen | June 5, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Not praying is of course quite compatible with the idea of a personal god. A god that knows all doesn’t need explicit communcation either; it knows your every thought and has known since the dawn of time, billions of years before you thought it, so it has had all the time in the world to consider whether or not to oblige your selfish wishes or grant you some enlightenment.
Hoo boy, try getting that one past a fundy. I got guilt-tripped about prayer continuously for 30 years. No matter how often I prayed, it was never enough.
Pray without ceasing! the verse goes, so we were admonished to “make our lives a concert of prayer,’ whatever that means.
I guess if I’d taken it to the extreme, I would’ve turned into one of those people who goes around muttering under her breath all the time. Someone probably would have committed me!
21.
God doesn’t deserve&hellip | June 6, 2007 at 10:58 pm
[...] 6th, 2007 In response to Simen’s post “What’s the Point with Prayer?” crager, from the blog “A Varitable Plethora,” said: As I often do, I went with [...]
22.
“G-d - Imaginary Fr&hellip | August 1, 2007 at 1:41 pm
[...] From What’s the Point with Prayer? [...]
23.
mathew | January 26, 2008 at 10:34 am
Would you like to read my poston the ‘Logic of Prayer’ and leave a comment, please.
What would you think of some of my experiences in prayer? I’d like to listen to your response, if you will.
thanks.
24.
Prayer: Why do it Anyway?&hellip | May 11, 2008 at 5:52 pm
[...] over the years. We’ve discussed this topic on several occasions including Simen’s What’s the Point with Prayer?, MysteryOfIniquity’s Prayer: Communion with yourself, and LeoPardus’ Praying my way to [...]