Comments on: What’s the Point with Prayer? http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/ Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians...... Thu, 29 Jul 2010 14:44:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Joe http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40921 Joe Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:04:58 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40921 Sorry about that--I am the anonymous---name dropped off somehow. Sorry about that–I am the anonymous—name dropped off somehow.

]]> By: CheezChoc http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40920 CheezChoc Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:30:27 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40920 I still can't see any kind of context or ultimate result or reason that will make us all understand and accept everything that has happened here. I still can’t see any kind of context or ultimate result or reason that will make us all understand and accept everything that has happened here.

]]> By: Anonymous http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40919 Anonymous Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:04:03 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40919 milehigh--- I'm sure you will consider this a "cop-out" or that I am coming to "God's defense" becauset he question is too tough. And I see where you would have a right to do that too. But I have to mention that there are many things we do not understand. Apparently, from what we read in scripture, God put someone in authority over this planet---and even though he has fallen, he still appears to have that authority, Note that he offered Jesus "all the Kingdoms of the world if He would worship him"---and as we know, Jesus declined. But this person DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THE OFFER. So, in a mystery we do not understand, God has limited what he can do on this planet. He does do miracles----but as we all know they are few and far between. We ALL ask "God, why do you allow little children to be murdered? Why do you allow old people to be mistreated, and ripped-off, etc. etc." and it is a very valid question. But the Bible seems to imply there is something happening that we cannot fully understand, and that it will all will be made clear to us one day. I don't believe God is helping people find their car keys---we are perfectly able to find them ourselves----some people may CALL that prayer----but that isn't prayer at all--- that is pure stupidity. So would asking God to help me not burn the rice when I'm cooking. :) There is much more to the story that we cannot see--I truly believe this. Again, sounds like a "cop-out" I suppose, but that's what I read and I really do think one day we will all clearly see what has happened here on this earth----and most importantly, why. milehigh—

I’m sure you will consider this a “cop-out” or that I am coming to “God’s defense” becauset he question is too tough. And I see where you would have a right to do that too.

But I have to mention that there are many things we do not understand. Apparently, from what we read in scripture, God put someone in authority over this planet—and even though he has fallen, he still appears to have that authority,

Note that he offered Jesus “all the Kingdoms of the world if He would worship him”—and as we know, Jesus declined. But this person DID HAVE THE RIGHT TO MAKE THE OFFER.

So, in a mystery we do not understand, God has limited what he can do on this planet. He does do miracles—-but as we all know they are few and far between. We ALL ask “God, why do you allow little children to be murdered? Why do you allow old people to be mistreated, and ripped-off, etc. etc.” and it is a very valid question.

But the Bible seems to imply there is something happening that we cannot fully understand, and that it will all will be made clear to us one day. I don’t believe God is helping people find their car keys—we are perfectly able to find them ourselves—-some people may CALL that prayer—-but that isn’t prayer at all— that is pure stupidity. So would asking God to help me not burn the rice when I’m cooking. :)

There is much more to the story that we cannot see–I truly believe this. Again, sounds like a “cop-out” I suppose, but that’s what I read and I really do think one day we will all clearly see what has happened here on this earth—-and most importantly, why.

]]> By: milehigh http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40918 milehigh Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:15:36 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40918 I know a pastor serving in the third world whose home burned down while he was off teaching a Bible study last year. It soon came out his three children had lit a candle and were then burned alive in the home. Was it too much for God to just help these screaming kids out the door or simply blow the fire out? I'm sorry my children, I know it is painful, but I have to let you burn alive to further my will. It's the only way to reach your family and friends. Soon you will be with me in heaven and we can watch your grandparents burning in hell together. I know a pastor serving in the third world whose home burned down while he was off teaching a Bible study last year. It soon came out his three children had lit a candle and were then burned alive in the home. Was it too much for God to just help these screaming kids out the door or simply blow the fire out? I’m sorry my children, I know it is painful, but I have to let you burn alive to further my will. It’s the only way to reach your family and friends. Soon you will be with me in heaven and we can watch your grandparents burning in hell together.

]]> By: milehigh http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40917 milehigh Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:04:35 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40917 It's just funny what we pray about. "God please help me find my keys", meanwhile a child is being raped down the street and God does nothing to stop it. Jesus loves the little children, at least the ones who pray to him. Wait, that doesn't explain the little girl who was raped, tortured & murdered, then thrown in a suitcase by her sunday school teacher last year. I'm sure her parents prayed for her that day. The girl probably prayed for God's help too. Maybe even the Sunday school teacher asked for forgiveness before she committed the murder. What about when the girl screamed out to Jesus for help when unspeakable acts were committed against her? What if you had thousands of TV monitors all around, each showing a live feed of every murder, rape, abuse, torture happening at that moment. Would you not be horrified and do whatever you could to stop at least one? What if you could stop all of them instantly but refused to lift a finger? This is the position in which God sits, too busy helping us find our keys or choose the right used car. It’s just funny what we pray about. “God please help me find my keys”, meanwhile a child is being raped down the street and God does nothing to stop it. Jesus loves the little children, at least the ones who pray to him. Wait, that doesn’t explain the little girl who was raped, tortured & murdered, then thrown in a suitcase by her sunday school teacher last year. I’m sure her parents prayed for her that day. The girl probably prayed for God’s help too. Maybe even the Sunday school teacher asked for forgiveness before she committed the murder. What about when the girl screamed out to Jesus for help when unspeakable acts were committed against her?
What if you had thousands of TV monitors all around, each showing a live feed of every murder, rape, abuse, torture happening at that moment. Would you not be horrified and do whatever you could to stop at least one? What if you could stop all of them instantly but refused to lift a finger?
This is the position in which God sits, too busy helping us find our keys or choose the right used car.

]]> By: DSimon http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40905 DSimon Sat, 13 Feb 2010 14:25:02 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40905 Joe, the problem with relying on "purely subjective" evidence to prove the existence of things that are supposed to exist in objective reality is that your conclusions are quite likely to be wrong. Falsifiability and verifiable evidence is <b>important</b>. As I said earlier, if your standards of belief would just as easily support things that are obviously nonsense, like astrology, why should you use them? Joe, the problem with relying on “purely subjective” evidence to prove the existence of things that are supposed to exist in objective reality is that your conclusions are quite likely to be wrong.

Falsifiability and verifiable evidence is important. As I said earlier, if your standards of belief would just as easily support things that are obviously nonsense, like astrology, why should you use them?

]]> By: CheezChoc http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40901 CheezChoc Sat, 13 Feb 2010 06:32:27 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40901 Hail Mary full of grace, help me find a parking space. Sorry--that just came to mind all of a sudden. :) Hail Mary full of grace,
help me find a parking space.

Sorry–that just came to mind all of a sudden.
:)

]]> By: Simen http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40900 Simen Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:59:32 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40900 Joe: "keep on seeking and you shall find." There you have it. Keep looking for "answered prayers" and you shall find them. There's no shortage of "miraculous" events in the world. So long as you define miracles as extremely improbable, you will find them. This is exactly what you'd expect in a universe governed by natural laws and chance, but no creator: every day, an almost unimaginably large number of events occur: it would be remarkable if improbable events never happened, since "highly unlikely" is more probable than "impossible". What all these miracles have in common is that they're not impossible. There have never been any documented <em>impossible</em> miracles, i.e., true miracles. There are plenty of false miracles, unlikely events that happen every once in a while because that's just how chance goes, and those who seek miracles shall happily find them. But since they are exactly what you'd expect in a universe without a creator, there is no need to attribute them to God. That is wishful thinking. As for the incomprehensibility of God, it seems to me that if you've first said God is fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, you can make no rational assessment of God's actions or commands. After all, you don't understand God's motives, God's methods of acquiring knowledge, God's anything, really. God is defined as impossible to understand. If God cannot be understood, he cannot be rationally trusted. You can't say God is incomprehensible and then say you comprehend God's commands or motives or attributes. You don't get to "understand" God as far as God's supposed attributes match those you'd like God to have, and then claim God incomprehensible when something happens that could be interpreted as contradicting your idea of what or who God is. Either God is beyond human understanding, or he isn't. Selective comprehensibility sounds suspiciously like selective belief, i.e., wishful thinking. The same goes for the "feelings prove God" non-argument. Joe: “keep on seeking and you shall find.” There you have it. Keep looking for “answered prayers” and you shall find them. There’s no shortage of “miraculous” events in the world. So long as you define miracles as extremely improbable, you will find them. This is exactly what you’d expect in a universe governed by natural laws and chance, but no creator: every day, an almost unimaginably large number of events occur: it would be remarkable if improbable events never happened, since “highly unlikely” is more probable than “impossible”. What all these miracles have in common is that they’re not impossible. There have never been any documented impossible miracles, i.e., true miracles. There are plenty of false miracles, unlikely events that happen every once in a while because that’s just how chance goes, and those who seek miracles shall happily find them. But since they are exactly what you’d expect in a universe without a creator, there is no need to attribute them to God. That is wishful thinking.

As for the incomprehensibility of God, it seems to me that if you’ve first said God is fundamentally incomprehensible to humans, you can make no rational assessment of God’s actions or commands. After all, you don’t understand God’s motives, God’s methods of acquiring knowledge, God’s anything, really. God is defined as impossible to understand. If God cannot be understood, he cannot be rationally trusted. You can’t say God is incomprehensible and then say you comprehend God’s commands or motives or attributes. You don’t get to “understand” God as far as God’s supposed attributes match those you’d like God to have, and then claim God incomprehensible when something happens that could be interpreted as contradicting your idea of what or who God is. Either God is beyond human understanding, or he isn’t. Selective comprehensibility sounds suspiciously like selective belief, i.e., wishful thinking.

The same goes for the “feelings prove God” non-argument.

]]> By: Joe http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40899 Joe Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:00:04 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40899 Snuggly --- "Once you start arguing that God is beyond our comprehension you have given up the ability to say anything about him".(#47) That would be true if he never revealed anything about himself. He is an INFINITE being---so of course we cannot fully comprehend him. I think that is the mistake many make in thinking because they in their finite minds cannot comprehend God, He therefore must not exist. God does say his thoughts are far above our thoughts---but He also says "I know the thoughts I think towards you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end". So though his thoughts are vastly and infinitely beyond our finite thoughts, he still explains HOW he thinks about us, and that they are thoughts of love. I admit completely that part of being a "believer" is admitting that there is no way you can fully understand or comprehend God. Much of believing is "trusting" that He knows what is best for us, and accepting that we are finite and will one day know far more than we understand at the present time. Snuggly —

“Once you start arguing that God is beyond our comprehension you have given up the ability to say anything about him”.(#47)

That would be true if he never revealed anything about himself. He is an INFINITE being—so of course we cannot fully comprehend him. I think that is the mistake many make in thinking because they in their finite minds cannot comprehend God, He therefore must not exist.

God does say his thoughts are far above our thoughts—but He also says “I know the thoughts I think towards you, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you an expected end”. So though his thoughts are vastly and infinitely beyond our finite thoughts, he still explains HOW he thinks about us, and that they are thoughts of love.

I admit completely that part of being a “believer” is admitting that there is no way you can fully understand or comprehend God. Much of believing is “trusting” that He knows what is best for us, and accepting that we are finite and will one day know far more than we understand at the present time.

]]> By: Joe http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40898 Joe Sat, 13 Feb 2010 00:46:56 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/2007/06/04/whats-the-point-with-prayer/#comment-40898 Outsider---(#46) Please read post #41 again. I admitted there, and in a couple of other posts that prayer is very subjective. I never stated I could speak for the mind of God---on the contrary I mentioned that it says his ways are not our ways, or his thoughts our thoughts--that they are high above ours according to scripture. Not sure what you mean about "illogical claims" when I freely admit that answered or unanswered prayers are both highly subjective---you cannot prove or disprove them either way---except by one's personal experience. It is basically the same argument as the existence of God is----you can spend many posts arguing the point, but in the end it will be subjective, as it always will be. Outsider—(#46)

Please read post #41 again. I admitted there, and in a couple of other posts that prayer is very subjective. I never stated I could speak for the mind of God—on the contrary I mentioned that it says his ways are not our ways, or his thoughts our thoughts–that they are high above ours according to scripture.

Not sure what you mean about “illogical claims” when I freely admit that answered or unanswered prayers are both highly subjective—you cannot prove or disprove them either way—except by one’s personal experience. It is basically the same argument as the existence of God is—-you can spend many posts arguing the point, but in the end it will be subjective, as it always will be.

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