Tithing: The Church’s Greatest Lie?

June 9, 2007 at 7:09 am 135 comments

Christianity as a whole is based on myths and rituals of a nomadic Middle Eastern tribe who wandered around in a desert a few years too many so it’s difficult to classify what is truth. However, even within this construct, is an embedded lie called tithing (giving 10% of your income to “God”). Even if we assume for a moment the Bible is truth, it would still be illogical to say tithing is a requirement for the church.

Preacher with the moneyIn Matthew 23:23, Jesus referred to tithing as a part of the law. In the book of Galatians, Paul the Apostle makes the case that Christians are no longer to follow the law. In Acts 15, the council at Jerusalem listed 3 things from the law that should be followed. The rest – not so much. Tithing was NOT included in this list.

However, many churches insist that Christians are required to tithe. There are even petty arguments on whether it should be on gross or net pay. In certain churches, a person cannot hold a leadership position if they are not a tither.

This teaching is one of the most hypocritical tenants of the church. To openly preach freedom from the law on one hand then require Christians to tithe on the other is negating the very gospel they believe (per Paul in Galatians).

One of the funniest reasons I’ve heard to justify tithing is that Abraham tithe before the law therefore tithing is above the law. Huh? First of all Abraham didn’t even tithe from his own possession but he gave 10% of his conquests. Abraham also made animal sacrifices, practiced polygamy, and a host of other things before the law. Should Christians be required to follow those practices also?

I should also point out that Paul, in writing letters to young churches, NEVER once instructed them on tithing. Instead, he said:

“You must each make up your own mind as to how much you should give. Don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. For God loves the person who gives cheerfully.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)

Why then are so many Christians duped into thinking, even within the construct of their own religious teachings, that they are suppose to tithe?

Even if Christians are not willing to walk away from their faith, they should at least stop allowing themselves to be controlled, manipulated, and ripped off by their spiritual leaders. It’s such a shame that so many allow themselves to be slaves to these evil environments where they are threatened:

“Giva your 10% or God is gonna send Tony and Guido to breakka your legs” (Malachi 3:11, dC version).

- The de-Convert

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Bible Literalism ala The West Wing The Bible’s Object Lessons in Church Fund Raising

135 Comments Add your own

  • 1. agnosticatheist  |  June 9, 2007 at 12:22 am

    This is in line with a comment by neo on a previous entry:

    Hi guys and gals I am very impressed with the demeanor of this site. Christians and non-Christians having a nice civilized discussiion, who would have thought.

    I am currently in the process of deconversion from the fundamentalist independent Baptist church, it may even cost me my marriage. I have attented this denomination for nearly 7 years. I had adhered to all the Baptist do’s and don’ts during this time. I witnessed to everyone, gave my 10% no matter what, gave specialing offerings, help do work at the church, believed in an all powerfull God and was only concerned about pleasing him. Then I woke up! I become tired of making my family do without while I continued to give money to the church. We could not afford to go here or there or to do this or that but we could right a check every week without thinking twice. Then it dawned on me along with many other untruths that I had been feed. As a husband it is my job to take care of my family, how can I be taking care of my family if we cannot afford to do anything but can constantly give money to the church.

    The people at church really did not care about me and my family. They did not care if I could not pay my bills or if my house got repossed as long as they got their 10%. My wife and I work for a living and do not waste our money. We were always told as long as you give God will take care of it, yeah right. I know people that give money like crazy and believe 100% in their faith in God, yet bad things happen to them. The truth is that bad things and good things will happen to people wether they are a Christian or not. I thought if you loved God with all you heart and did whatever he wanted you to do that you would be blessed. I am not talking about living in a mansion or driving a Porsche. I am tlalking about just being able to live like a normal human being liking setting up a retirement fund, having money in the bank to cover unexpected problems that arise, living in a normal adequate housing and so forth. Of course I was told that I am materlistic and not where I need to be with God. All they really care about is making sure that I continue to think as they do. I will now be ostercized and be looked down on by my loving Christian bretheren because I now longer accept all their ways, I actually think. My wife has left the church for the sake of our marriage even though she is still 100% Baptist. It’s great to have your spouse see you as a lost and unsaved sinner just becuase you are trying to help your family.

    Basically because I want to have a decent house, adequate transportation, a savings account, a retirement package and actually be able to enjog life a little I am label as unsaved or a backslidder. I guess that makes me a horrible person because I want to be able to provide for my family. I lived this so called Christian life and really did not ever feel all they great emotions and happiness that was my rewared, actually I was miserable the whole time and felt that it was my falult that I did not have this great Christian ride. At the end the problem was not me, it was them. If all these so called Christians were really honest they would admit that they don’t have all these great glorious expierences either, but if they did that they might have to consider the foundation of their life may not be true.

  • 2. agnosticatheist  |  June 9, 2007 at 12:27 am

    Here’s another comment by Radec on a previous blog:

    Story time-about 6 years ago we had a deacon ask my wife and I about our “giving back to God” (Since he was the one in charge of collecting the contribution, my guess is he felt my check wasn’t as big as it should be). My wife and I at the time chose to give most of what we set aside to organizations outside of the church as we felt a greater percentage of our money was spent on people in need. I told the deacon this, and he told me he wasn’t sure “if that counted since it wasn’t given to the church”.

  • 3. HeIsSailing  |  June 9, 2007 at 1:50 am

    I had a similar experience as Radec. I got fed up with giving to the Church when I realized most of the money was going to some dopey church building fund. I don’t mind giving where there is legitimate need, in fact I still do give plenty of money to some very worthy causes. About 2 or 3 years before I even left Christianity, I stopped tithing in the church, and instead used that money where I felt it would do more good, and I did it with prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. I confessed this to a church leader, and was told that we were to give our money to the house of the Lord and to trust the church leaders they were doing what was right with the money. I searched the Scriptures myself, and saw no reason not to instead tithe to secular organizations who feed and house the truly poor and needy. Hey, that is what Jesus commanded, isn’t it? I don’t think Jesus ever told us to expand the childrens’ playroom across from the main sanctuary.

    Now that church was fairly large and could do without my meager tithing. But I have also attended plenty of small, rural churches where literally every penny counted just to keep the electric bills paid. And they kept the community intact, and hosted some pretty mean potlucks, so I did not mind giving when I attended there either. It is all a matter of perspective, I guess.

  • 4. Matt  |  June 9, 2007 at 5:17 am

    Don’t forget the related (thankfully now former act) of the church known as the selling of indulgences.

    Organised churches, generally speaking, have a very poor record of responsibly handling money.

  • 5. beepbeepitsme  |  June 9, 2007 at 6:51 am

    When I think of organized religion and money, it reminds me of this George Carlin quote.

    “Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money.”

  • 6. stellar1  |  June 9, 2007 at 7:21 am

    Matt,

    I had forgot about indulgences. It seemed like a win/win situation. The christian got a “get out of hell” free card and the church got lots of money. I always wonder what God thought about selling sin? :-)

  • 7. Epiphanist  |  June 9, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Oh dear, this is a big can of worms aA. Forget about indulgences though. Martin Luther used them to successfully start the Reformation in 1517. However, Luther was not very keen on Jews and won’t stand up as any sort of hero. HIS is correct, the gospel message is to give to the poor. My reading of the gospels doesn’t leave much room for priests or temples either. Yes, aA, the point of the New Testament was to replace the old law based one, tithing should have been thrown out. “Curiouser and curiouser” cried Alice. Paul writes to Timothy that the love of money is the root of all evils, but the context is of people leaving the church to save money. There doesn’t seem to be any good reason not to apply the same principle to church leaders who take big bucks from the faithful, whether it be for themselves or to build monuments to themselves. But, genuine religious practitioners deserve a living, same as anyone else. Many churches are the last refuge of the desperate, and care deeply and sincerely for the poor. For what it’s worth to you, my opinion is that giving is a very healthy habit. To be meaningful, giving needs to be done freely, without any expectation of reward. I am not comfortable with this discussion taking place in immensely rich, unsustainable western societies, the perspective seems very wrong. Which takes me back to my last comment on this site, the obvious signs of the times are greed and apathy.

  • 8. agnosticatheist  |  June 9, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    This whole issue of money manipulation has even increased in today’s charismatic/WOF churches with the “Prosperity Gospel” message – which states give your money to “God” (i.e. whoever is doing the preaching at the time) and God will bless you in return.

    I agree that we should all help the poor and needy. Christians need to cut out the middle man (or woman) and give directly to those in need. Giving your money to the Joyce Meyer/Creflo Dollar/etc. also supports their million dollar ministries and lifestyles and very few of the dollars actually make it to the poor.

    Jesus himself is quoted as saying if you do it for the least of these, you do it for him. Why are Christians buying the lie that these preachers are somehow their God’s representatives.

    BTW, that’s not to say that I’m against supporting community churches in their endeavors when there’s accountability and low overhead. The issue isn’t that – it’s the manipulative way the money is collected and the lavish lifestyles some of these evil preachers live…. (now you’re seeing a bit of my anger :) )

    aA

  • 9. marie  |  June 9, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    Wow–great post. HIS, that is such a good point about putting the money towards things that Jesus actually preached about.

    when I was in college, I attended (for a VERY short while) McLean Bible Church in McLean, VA. (Look up their website if you are curious to see a church that is as big as a mall). Well, I went to the college group and one night they had a “fun night” which consisted of the college group fund spending about $500 on candy and pizza and popcorn, $200 on electricity, and tons on other expenses….but anyway, I showed up and milled around, and then I suddenly found myself in the High School ministry room. HOLY SHIT. They had at LEAST $50,000 worth of video games in there–a wall of 16 televisions for students to play HALO on, 10 video game stations with x-boxes, playstations, etc. and then they had a full-blown arcade with about 20 stand-up arcade games, air hockey, glow-in-the-dark pool table, blasting music and leather couches. I was appalled and immediately left the building and never went back.

    It is SO disgusting that people like Neo(referred to in above post) can break their bank to give to the church, people can go hungry, take out second mortgages, make huge sacrifices–and then some churches just take the cash and spend it on useless shit. The people who tithe can be so genuinely faithful and caring, yet their hard earned living is cast away. That is pure injustice. Not to mention all of the actually needy causes who are not receiving that $200 when a church buys an xbox.

    It is amazing how much of an abuser some churches can be–and how religion is probably the most near perfect manipulating power scheme.

  • 10. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 9, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    Marie,
    OH MY I had no idea! I mean, I had some idea of the waste, but are you shittin’ me? Video games and playstations? I really do live in a backwater!!

  • 11. HeIsSailing  |  June 9, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Me too! Dang, I have never been to a church like describe, Marie! The biggest I had ever been to was Calvary Chapel in Albuquerque, which I left after the attendence grew to a couple of thousand. Way too big for my tastes! Marie, I just cannot believe Christians don’t stand back and look at 50K worth of games in their own church and get thoroughly disgusted with it. I mean, come on!

    Well, on a similar note, my wife and I spent 2 weeks in New York City last year for a holiday. We decided to attend mass at St Patricks Cathedral one Sunday morning, and neither of us had ever seen anything like it –

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick%27s_Cathedral_%28New_York%29

    Hard to explain, but we were both shocked and disturbed by the gross ostentation of that place. I could not help wondering if this all come from old indulgence money that was suckered out of people who could not know any better. All the congregants were tourists, which was evident when the priest concluded the mass by saying, “this mass has ended, you may now take photographs”. Neither my wife nor I felt very good after attending. It was just too much to be believed.

  • 12. Sue Ann Edwards  |  June 9, 2007 at 2:58 pm

    A God that needs? rofl.

  • 13. agnosticatheist  |  June 9, 2007 at 3:05 pm

    MOI/HIS,

    You all definitely have to expand your church going experiences… Check out any of the large charismatic or Bible Churches. It’s a great marketing tool… get the kids loving “church” and the parents come and give their money :)

    You could also just watch some of the TBN shows for great entertainment. Creflo Dollar is my favorite. Hard to believe anyone with a brain would give that guy any of their money but they do.

    It’s fun to watch but it also breaks your heart when you think of the people giving their electric bill money to “God” hoping for a blessing. I believe Joyce Meyer had a campaign a couple years ago encouraging people to give their down payments they were saving for buying a house and God would bless them with an even bigger house.

    My thought about these people is this – If God will bless me if I give them my money so they can do God’s work, why don’t they give all their money to God and he’ll bless them and they won’t need my money. If it will work for me, it should work for them – right?

    aA

  • 14. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 9, 2007 at 4:13 pm

    aA, :-) Heck, I might have stayed in church longer if I knew they had such game rooms! No wonder my kids thought church was boring. Who could blame them.

  • 15. marie  |  June 9, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    If you want to read about the church for yourself–here is the student ministry home page–describing the 16 ft xbox playing screen, latest video consoles, skate park, etc.

    here is the website: http://www.rockdc.com/indexrock.htm

  • 16. HeIsSailing  |  June 9, 2007 at 7:44 pm

    marie,
    After seeing that, I have to wonder why churches in this country still get away with this without a losing a single penny to taxes.

    “With over 20,000 square feet, the new “Rock” facility offers a diverse blend of activities and a meaningful worship experience. Offering X-Box and PS2 systems, 16-foot overhead X-Box 360 systems, an indoor skate ramp, pool, ping-pong and air hockey tables, the latest arcade games, Imac internet stations, basketball, and cafe and lounge areas to relax and connect, you won’t be lookingn for “something to do”.

    All in the name of Jesus, of course. This is the stuff that just killed me, even back when I was a Christian. I would never give a penny to a church like this. I agree, why not illiminate the middle-man of the Church and just give directly to the homeless shelter? I hear they could use a new 16 foot screen down at the soup kitchen.

  • […] we are on the subject of tithing from the last article on de-conversion, I would like to bring up one of my favorite examples of fund raising tactics […]

  • 18. societyvs  |  June 10, 2007 at 2:10 pm

    Tithing – such a strange idea in some senses. The idea was actually used within Jewish communities (from the Torah) as a somewhat tax-based system (10%) in order to help out the land with balancing issues (concerning the poor). It’s quite ridiculous how this idea has been screwed up by the church to help finance some of the most iditotic thing I have ever seen – ex: certian ministers getting rich and lack of programming for the poorer communities. It’s a middle class church – from what I can tell – that’s where the this money caters to.

  • 19. agnosticatheist  |  June 10, 2007 at 2:30 pm

    svs,

    I agree. We pay out tithes to Uncle Sam every paycheck…. Wish they were Bible literalists and kept it at 10% :)

    aA

  • 20. Stephen  |  June 22, 2007 at 2:55 am

    I think it is in Genesis 31 or there abouts. It is the first place where God mentions the tithe in the first person. He mentions the oath that Jacob made. Jacob’s oath was primarily “I will give a tenth of all you give me”. God had promised to give him land. So Jacob gives a vow. Well later on God mentions this. YOu know what Jacob’s wives said about that………’Let’s go, our father just wants our money’.

    So the first place God mentions tithe it gives inspiration to those who were having money extorted from them to leave.

  • 21. Luther  |  June 22, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    I hate to burst your bubble, but Pope John Paul II reinstated the selling of indulgences before he died. Martin Luther must be rolling in his grave about now.

  • 22. muluken yosef  |  June 23, 2007 at 12:24 pm

    iam need toknow about chiristanity

  • 23. salman  |  July 11, 2007 at 6:12 am

    i think the people who r the biggest enemy’s off ISLAM r the people who believe in church’s fathers words

  • 24. Anonymous  |  May 31, 2008 at 12:56 am

    the best thing my father ever thought me was to think for myself and take from church what was best for me. i learned at a young age that preachers will tell you anything. it’s up to you to believe either the preacher, who is man or the word of god. read the word for your own understanding and believe that you are making the choice of your own to tithe or not. most of my family is deeply religious and they believe that titheding brings blessings from god. i was asked once if i gave my 10% to god every sunday. i told them no. i need to eat, make sure day care is paid and that i have a roof over my head. if god was unhappy with that decision then i would find out when i meet my maker. the decision’s you make to tithes is between you and god.

  • 25. Pablo  |  May 31, 2008 at 7:23 am

    First of all Jesus himself said I came to fulfill the law not to destroy it and secondly God gave all mankind free will. There are thousands of churches out there floundering because their people don’t give and soon they will be closed. They are still responsible for keeping the lights on and the water running. I have a friend whose father has a church and he works everyday and on Sunday preaches. I can’t believe that he can be effective giving a spiritual message if he is wondering if the lights will be on when he gets there. I have found that when I was doing whatever I wanted to do out in the streets no one dared to second guess me for fear of the outcome but as soon as I entered the church everyone has an opinion. My suggestion is you do what you like and don’t worry about me. I am a free thinker and tithing was something I determined I would do because I wanted to. When I started, I had nothing and I was homeless. Now I have a house, a business and I am debt free. So you do what you believe works best for you and don’t worry about everyone else. Time will tell if you are right or wrong.

  • 26. LRoy  |  May 31, 2008 at 9:30 am

    I was truly encouraged to read Pablo’s remarks, tithing is an outgrowth of your relationship with God and you personal convictions of how he is honored in your life. I think it’s fascinating how much money gets spent on everything else but the tithe gets bad press. You deride the church for video games and sound equipment but pay 100 bucks for a concert no questions asked, and whenever there is something held at church you want it to be free. Well I’m a tither and have always been blessed to make ends meet plus some, even when I didn’t know where it was coming from. The bible says God uses foolish things to puzzle the wise, so as Pablo said only time will tell if you’re as wise as you think you are. God Bless you.

  • 27. denise  |  May 31, 2008 at 9:41 am

    For those of you skeptics. The bible is intended to forthe spiritual minded not the carnal. In Malachi God talks about bringing your tithes inthe storehouse. You must read the bible with the understanding that God intended or you will always come out with you own interpertations. God loves us so much we have frewill to chose everyday who we will serve. The first question is do you believe in God. If you do do you believe in his written word and last do you believe that you alone are responsible for providing your needs without the help of a omni presensence. If you do God have mercy on you.

  • 28. Georgen  |  May 31, 2008 at 10:17 am

    we have to contribute to the upkeep of the churches , utilities, staffing, etc , but this should be done by everybody contributing, whether time , services, or Money, the Idea of tiding is just a Ploy, some churches use today, tiding was an instrument of the state at that time,so was also the Religion, you seperate chuch and state there goes Tiding,

  • 29. CheezChoc  |  May 31, 2008 at 12:12 pm

    denise,

    Well, we all come out with our own interpretations of the Bible. Who doesn’t? How can any of us know what understanding of it God intends for us?

  • 30. LeeBee  |  May 31, 2008 at 3:43 pm

    We are all GOD’s( who else created us?) people, black, white, Jew, Gentile, Muslim, Buddist, whoever. If you give to help anyone if you just let God use you for the betterment of his people wheather through chruch, charity, or whatever GOD WILL BLESS YOU. AMEN

  • 31. carl smith  |  May 31, 2008 at 6:56 pm

    It is ashame that people fall for this cheap trick. You don’t have to pay to go to heaven. That money you give to the church go to the preacher so he can by expensive cars and homes why you live poor everyday. And also they take care of their women on the side. They don’t never halp the community in protests. What a bunch of pimps. Some Church people are weak and stupid.

  • 32. carl smith  |  May 31, 2008 at 7:01 pm

    #27 Denise, what does storehouse mean? I think it would mean you would put something away in time of need. But when most people go to the church and ask them for money, they don’t have anything. Keep your money in your pocket. Don’t be a fool.

  • 33. Cheryl  |  June 1, 2008 at 7:59 am

    God’s word says to be a good steward over everything he has given you. If the church that you are in isn’t doing the right thing with the tithes and offering I suggest you leave or try to make changes. The church does need money to operate. If you feel they are wasteful leave. But realize just as you have bills to pay so do they. Nothing is free but God’s love grace and mercy you can’t buy it. And yes we do have freewill. The scripture that says give and it shall be given to you pressed down and shaken together will men give to your busom doesn’t necessarily mean money. And your tithe doesn’t necessarily mean money you can give 10% of your time, money talent. God’s purpose can use it all. Notice I said God’s purpose I didn’t say God because God doesn’t need your money. Do you go to a club, a play, a store the gym? None of these things would exist if they were not funded same with the church. Like I said if your church isn’t doing the right thing with the money don’t support it financially. Pray and ask the Lord what you should do with your money. After all it is a personal relationship with you that He is looking for. yes some ministries are scams but don’t lump all of Christianity in the same boat. There is good and bad in everything.

  • 34. Michelle  |  June 1, 2008 at 10:46 am

    I believe tithing is the least we can do to show our gratitude to God. Can we give back .10 for every dollar we make to the One that gave and continues to give us life, food, shelter and other things? Do unto others as you would have them do to you. If you give, God will give back to you. Call it the Golden Rule or Karma!! Its all the same and God is no exception, now He doesn’t need it by all means, don’t get it twisted, He deserves it. You want recognition and praise/appreication for the things you have done for others, do you deserve it? In your mind, you sure do!!! If you did not receive the thanks and praise, would you be apt to do anything else for anyone? I think not. Tithing/giving back grudgingly or not at all means you are not appreciative. BOTTOM LINE. Take the other 90% and budget!!! God Bless.

  • 35. Anonymous  |  June 1, 2008 at 8:18 pm

    I am a firm believer in tithing and I know for a fact tithing is a blessing. I have experienced it. If God said 10 percent then that settles it. I pay my tithes faithfully and God blesses me. When I tithe I don’t always have enough money to make ends meet but by God’s grace and mercy a blessing always comes through and I never fall short unless I miss paying my tithes. God has proved Himself time after time. Faith without work is dead and I step out on my faith time after time believing that God is going to do what he said he would do. He hasn’t failed me yet.

  • 36. Quinn  |  June 2, 2008 at 8:37 am

    I think it’s a bit harsh at times for those who are believers to have to give up 10% of their earnings, when they hardly are making ends meet. Do they get anything back for living expenses? Not too mention that the ones who makes the most and thus contributes the most in tithes are the ones who hold the positions of leadership in the church. Another example of the rich controlling the poor and dictating who the church should and should not help in crisis, iif they help at all.

  • 37. stringhead  |  June 2, 2008 at 9:22 am

    Tithing is a personal thing between you and God, NO MAN can dictate what or when you are suppose to give. There is no where in the bible that it says that your tithes are suppose to go to the church. Your 10% can go where ever the Lord guides you to give.

  • 38. personalCFO  |  June 2, 2008 at 10:05 am

    I will say that there is a lot of truth in the initial comment from The de-Convert, however you must give the whole story and not just leave it half told. Yes, he is right about the tithe being an old testament law, and that today’s Christians no longer live under the law

  • 39. personalCFO  |  June 2, 2008 at 10:18 am

    … Oops. I’ll continue. I will say that there is a lot of truth in the initial comment from The de-Convert, however you must give the whole story and not just leave it half told. Yes, he is right about the tithe being an old testament law, and that today’s Christians no longer live under the law. The tithe was in place to support the Levites who ran the church and did not work. The tithe was also in place to support widow and orphans. There were also special offerings for large celebrations as well every so many years. Now fast forward to the new testament. Again, there is some accuracy in giving what you feel, and giving cheerfully, but the key is that you are giving with God’s guidance. We are still supposed to be taking care of the church, the widows, the orphans, and paying our taxes (render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar’s). I believe the church has been a bit lazy when it comes to preaching about giving. It is something that most churches have not really moved into the new testament teachings. However, I do feel that if everyone practiced ‘grace giving’ that we would be well above the 10% that we talk about when tithing.

    I think the main problem with most people is that our money mangement is all messed up or nonexistent is some cases. We need to prioritize where our money goes. From our income we must plan to put enough money into a retirement account, emergency account, and give away to charities and church. Only after each of these buckets has been filled should we determine what our current lifestyle should be. The problem is we choose our lifestyle FIRST then we start allocating funds to our churches, charities, and retirement. And generally when we run out of money who is the first to get cut THE CHURCH, then emergency accounts, then retirement. So the problem isn’t the church and us giving too much, but that, in general, we have a money management and priority problem. We all think we should be living above a level that we should really be living at.

  • 40. Marie  |  June 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm

    Jesus said not to let the left hand know what the right hand was doing, and not to trumpet what you do for God. I’ve given to people who I know can never pay me back, and I don’t expect them to. Give in secret! I’ve been very blessed in so doing! I also give to my church and to other charities where I see the need. God has proven to me over and over again that you can never outgive him. Giving to the poor is lending to the Lord. What I find ironic is the richest churches out there are always asking for more money and demanding tithes. Sorry guys but you aren’t the poor if you’re collecting half a million of those ‘tithes’ in salaries.

  • 41. Kim  |  June 2, 2008 at 3:56 pm

    When it comes to tithing, according to the Bible you give your 10%, whatever that is. Now, if you are going to go into the bible to talk about tithing you need to talk about all the scriptures concerning tithing not just one or two scriptures. When it comes to any topic in the bible you need to have someone on your show who knows the bible and can explain it better than the guest you had on that show. Although there are churches out there who are money hunger just like regular people.

    Still love to listen to you. Keep doing whatcha doing.

  • 42. Rell  |  June 2, 2008 at 4:36 pm

    All churches are not money hungry and only out to get your money. Those type of churches you should stay away from. My church continues to give to the community and we have scholarship funds for our children and if you should ever come short on a bill, you can go to the church and my pastor will give to you with no problem nor ask for the money back. During the summer, we make sure our youth are not bored and has something to do as well as throughout the school year. Our graduates and any accomplishments that are made, you are recognized and rewarded. The church isn’t standing there alone, utilities need to paid, rent or mortgage and to keep that building going. When you pay your tithes, you should do this willing and freely not to expect something in return, when you do that, you will see a blessing. Tithing is between you and GOD only and if that church isn’t doing right with your tithes, then you go elsewhere but you should never give as if its a burden but because you want to and if you don’t then don’t. Thats all between you and GOD and in regards to the church having PS2 and xbox, at least you see its giong into the church and not at the pastor house, if this will get our young kids coming to church to hear the word of GOD then by all means, nothing wrong with that. These activities are at the church and for the students, they don’t have to be hanging out in the street but in the church where everything is at their leisure, I see nothing wrong with that.

  • 43. The de-Convert  |  June 2, 2008 at 6:04 pm

    Michelle,

    I believe tithing is the least we can do to show our gratitude to God. Can we give back .10 for every dollar we make to the One that gave and continues to give us life, food, shelter and other things?

    If I could get my 10% directly to god, I’d gladly give it. However, until I get heaven’s banking info, I’ll give to those in need, etc. What I won’t do is give money to feed a beast men created (church) or to support lavish lifestyles (tv evangelists), etc.

    Paul

  • 44. The de-Convert  |  June 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm

    personalCFO,

    The tithe was in place to support the Levites who ran the church and did not work. The tithe was also in place to support widow and orphans.

    Actually it wasn’t the “church” they ran, but really the community in general including supporting those in need, etc. The reality is, I’ll be happy to give 10% since Uncle Sam makes me tithe about 30%.

    Paul

  • 45. michael  |  June 2, 2008 at 6:45 pm

    You are understanding this whole thing wrong. The problem is, you are selfish and want to spend all your money and do nothing for God but hoard that which he created anyway and then come up with a line to back whatever you come up with. Son if you left the Christen faith, then you are already LOST. The Bible says not to be fooled by other messages of other faith. Face it you are WEAK. Nothing is going to make me turn my back on Jesus Christ. Brother you believe what you want and with this you will only get other weak minds like yourself to believe this bull you came up with. God needs soilders anyway so let any and everyone who are lost like you leave with you and you all can spend forever in HELL. “” See yah, won’t want to be yah”.

  • 46. The de-Convert  |  June 2, 2008 at 7:02 pm

    Michael,

    Me selfish? Wow, I would wager that I do more for others than you do but that’s not the point here. The point is that even within the context of the Bible, tithing is NOT a New Testament principle and if you’re being sold that, you’re being deceived (well the deception is actually a lot bigger but let’s stop there for now).

    God doesn’t need soldiers. If he needs anything is people who are compassionate and kind – traits you are severly lacking.

    Want to her what’s really sad – it’s folks like me who are no longer a part of your faith that are better “Christians” than folks like you who still cling to the dogma. How does that make sense?

    Paul

  • 47. mark  |  July 28, 2008 at 9:43 pm

    Your right for New Testament Christians tithing should not be taught. Generosity is the new standard. Everything is Gods. Stewardship or I guess you could say responsible handling of all resources is expected. It is expected because following Christ is a voluntary decision. I believe we should all cling lightly to our possessions so we are not possessed. This is easy for me to preach because I don’t have much. We should want to be a giving person with time talents, money etc. just like CHrist was. He didn’t calculate the minimum he just gave and gave and gave. We should follow Christ and not the church. To much human error in the church. My opinion is that if the church was really the embodiment of Christ a real gathering of people to discuss the treachingsof Christ and try to live by those teachings and help each other work that out, it would be a joy to be a part of that family. Unfortunately we have to build structures around everything and it muddies things up so much. The result is when I go to church all I hear about is the programs of the churcha nd what that church is about. The church has become an organization and a place to go rather than the people of God. That sucks and it has affected our concept of gving. I am a follower of Christ who has not been a part of an organized church for 3 years but I still try to meet with other Christians to share life.

  • 48. mark  |  July 28, 2008 at 11:07 pm

    This is a great although long e-book on tithing. It also gives much needed background on what a Christian is, his/her relationship to money and the church. WARNNG this is only for serious research. it is about 40 pages long but well worth it.

    http://www.freelygive-n.com/uploads/No_Tithe_Plus_-_Imbed_Link.pdf

  • 49. finallyhappy  |  July 29, 2008 at 6:40 am

    I’ll just say…my parents gave their $$ “above and beyond” for 30 years and struggled financially every single day of that time. I fail to understand a god that requires your rigid 10% when your family doesn’t have adequate food on the table and your bills can not be paid.
    It’s only after they left the church that they have started keeping their head above water and using some sense concerning $$. Sad to think of all that money they washed down the drain.

  • 50. john t.  |  July 29, 2008 at 8:47 am

    Michael
    #45
    “God needs soilders anyway so let any and everyone who are lost like you leave with you and you all can spend forever in HELL”

    I remember hearing those words on the nightly news, problem was they were coming out of Osama Bin Ladens mouth. So much for the Love of Christ eh?

  • 51. john t.  |  July 29, 2008 at 8:48 am

    The de-Convert.

    Have you ever read Pagan Christianity?

  • 52. Grant Dexter  |  July 29, 2008 at 10:31 am

    This teaching is one of the most hypocritical tenants of the church. To openly preach freedom from the law on one hand then require Christians to tithe on the other is negating the very gospel they believe (per Paul in Galatians).

    :APPLAUSE:

  • 53. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 11:03 am

    DIdn’t Jesus state in Matthew 5:17-18 that the law still stood?

    Matthew 5:17-18, “ 17″Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    Seems that way to me. That means the tithe as well as the slaughter of unbelievers/rebellious children/homosexuals still sits well with God. Mhmm.

  • 54. Grant Dexter  |  July 29, 2008 at 12:24 pm

    Yes, Obi, Jesus operated under the law. It wasn’t until Paul came along that God changed the rules.

  • 55. Bobbi Jo  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:08 pm

    I have given to my church on occasion, but I ususally give to the homeless shelter downtown instead. I also don’t keep any reciepts of any of these transactions to get money back on my taxes. This is my gift when I give. So far, the people I have told in my church are in line with this. They don’t tell me to give to the church, they are just happy that I have given my time or money to help those in need.

  • 56. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:14 pm

    Grant Dexter said, “Yes, Obi, Jesus operated under the law. It wasn’t until Paul came along that God changed the rules.

    I really can’t tell if you’re kidding or not, but I chuckled a little anyway.
    ;)

  • 57. BigHouse  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:15 pm

    Bobbi:

    I also don’t keep any reciepts of any of these transactions to get money back on my taxes. This is my gift when I give.

    You realize this ‘gift’ you speak of iis to our behemoth government?

  • 58. Bobbi Jo  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:18 pm

    Big house, how is it a gift to my government? I give to the homeless shelter and they give me a reciept to put on my tax returns that I gave them $. I just don’t add this deduction when I do my returns.

  • 59. Bobbi Jo  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:22 pm

    atually, I was thinking about it, and if I added the deductions and got more back because of it, I could give that extra back to the shelter. so I see what you are saying. Maybe I’ll change my practice. Thanks.

  • 60. Grant Dexter  |  July 29, 2008 at 1:50 pm

    Obi – I’m not kidding, but I’m glad you got a laugh.

    I’m probably not going to like the reason why you’re laughing, but as long as you’re happy .. that’s all that matter, right?
    ;)

  • 61. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 2:01 pm

    Grant —

    Oh, I actually did think you were kidding about the law being changed during Paul’s time because of what Jesus said about the subject, as I quoted before, “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

    Seems like a solid answer to me.

  • 62. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:12 pm

    Grant –

    Oh, I actually did think you were kidding about the law being changed during Paul’s time because of what Jesus said about the subject, as I quoted before, “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

    Seems like a solid answer to me.

    Note though at the end of the above verse he says “until everything is accomplished”. What did he mean by “accomplished”? It seems to refer to someone actually being able to live by the law completely without failing in any point, then it would be accomplished. Jesus actually did this in that he “kept the law” and never sinned. When He died on the cross he said “It is finished” (or “It is accomplished”).

    This brought in the New Testament and the age of Grace. Jesus fulfilled the Law. This is open to discussion of course, but that is how many interpret it.

  • 63. Rover  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:12 pm

    Christ’s point was that he did not come to dispose of the Law as a useless “thing”, but he came to fulfill the Law, ie, He came to be the ultimate sacrifice. The Law was established as a schoolmaster, to teach men about their sin and their inability to satisfy God’s Law without a propitiation for sin. Christ was that propitiation. Paul is clear in Romans and Ephesians that we are no longer under the Law; not because Christ abolished it but because He fulfilled it on our behalf.

  • 64. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:16 pm

    Sorry—meant to add that tithing is not a requirement in the New Testament, and is usually brought up by those teachers trying to rake in a few bucks. They will usually say “give your tithes and offerings, and above this your love gifts”—definition: “I need new leather seats in my Lexus”.

  • 65. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:17 pm

    Paul is clear in Romans and Ephesians that we are no longer under the Law; not because Christ abolished it but because He fulfilled it on our behalf.

    Rover–I agree.

  • 66. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:32 pm

    Mudshark and Rover —

    I’d think Jesus would have more authority on this issue than Paul, eh? Saying that “until everything is accomplished” meant “until I die” is an extreme stretch, because in that verse it seems that it would mean “until the end of the world”, because he talks about heaven and earth disappearing, which sounds quite apocalyptic. “Until I die” seems like an interpretation one would take because of certain ulterior motives, and not necessarily because it’s the meaning meant to be taken from reading the text.

    Furthermore, his (Jesus) mention of “not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen” disappearing from the law seems to strongly imply that he’s stating that he did not come to abolish the law (especially since he stated this in the verse prior) and institute another system, as the two of you propose.

  • 67. SnugglyBuffalo  |  July 29, 2008 at 4:39 pm

    Even if we assume that Paul was in error in saying we no longer live under the law, tithing makes little sense. Given that tithing was really more of a tax to the Israelite’s government, I would say it really doesn’t apply to churches anyway.

  • 68. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm

    Obi—

    Rover is correct in the way he put it actually. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it. He is the only man ever to have kept the whole Law without sin. Jesus definitely stated though that there would be a “new” covenant:

    While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
    Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. (Matt. 26:15,16)

    Jesus “fulfilled” the Law in himself–therefore all that receive him receive what he accomplished on behalf of them. They are justified in him by receiving his sacrifice for their sins. Don’t mean to be preaching—-just trying to explain. Probably not doing a very good job though.

  • 69. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 29, 2008 at 6:20 pm

    The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD.
    But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer. 31: 31-34)

    These verses from Jeremiah definitely state that there will be a New Covenant to “replace” the Law—not abolish it. Instead of trying to follow rules, this law will be “written upon their hearts”.

    Jesus also said “you cannot put new wine into old bottles, otherwise the old bottles will break”. This was referring to a New Covenant to replace the old—but again, it does not say the Old would be abolished though. So Jesus did know that a New Covenant would replace the Old.

  • 70. Rover  |  July 29, 2008 at 7:51 pm

    Obi,

    Generaly I would agree with your superior intellect, but on this issue I must disagree. Jesus seems merely to be saying that He has come to compete the Law and IT’S heart, meaning the heart of the Law will never pass away. He is speaking in a Midrash type of style. The Law as a code of life was completely fulfilled when he died on the cross as a sacrifice thereby fulfilling the sacrificial system, yet the heart of the law will live on, ie, Love the Lord your God with all your heart…. and your neighbor as yourself. this is true even in the new covenant. The Law, or knowledge of it, has not passed away, yet it has been fulfilled. It can still be used to point men to Christ, though they are know to make “grace” their standard for living.

  • 71. Rover  |  July 29, 2008 at 7:52 pm

    sorry for all of the mispells – too much of a hurry.

  • 72. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    Mudshark —

    Nice explanation, mate. That actually seems to resolve it quite nicely.

    Still, I find it strange that he would emphasize all of those points about the law passing away only to then effectively abolish it, so what do you think of those verses in Matthew that I was speaking of?

  • 73. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 9:12 pm

    By the way, I was just thinking of something and I think there may have been a misunderstanding here. When I say that Jesus stated that the law still stood, I meant all of the rules under the law were carried over to the “new covenant” — I wasn’t stating that the grace/salvation aspect was void.

    Just to make sure we’re clear.

  • 74. Grant Dexter  |  July 29, 2008 at 9:19 pm

    Obi – the law did not change. The rules did. Subtle difference in semantics – big difference in meaning.

  • 75. The Apostate  |  July 29, 2008 at 10:19 pm

    The only thing that changed was Paul’s schizophrenic mind. Paul’s view on the law: now you see it, now you don’t… now you see it… now you’d don’t.

  • 76. Obi  |  July 29, 2008 at 11:31 pm

    Would you care to explain the big difference in meaning, Grant? In normal English vocabulary, “law” and “rule” are extremely close synonyms, so you can understand where the point might be getting lost here. We’ve already covered the “covenant” part regarding grace and all of that, but let’s get down to brass tacks. Why do most modern Christians condemn those who follow the more inhumane and cruel commands of God in the Bible as being “un-Christianlike” when from what I see from reading the Bible, they should still be following those commands?

    Is there something I’m missing?

  • 77. Grant Dexter  |  July 30, 2008 at 2:33 am

    Yes, you are missing the mystery of the bible’s message.

    The law hasn’t changed. It is still God’s law that people be circumsized, eat accoding to a diet, tithe and observe certain rituals. The difference is that we are (since Paul explained the mystery) not required to keep that law in order to be saved.

    Up until Paul began his ministry the law was a requirement. The law is still righteous, but it is no longer a requirement. God changed the rules on how people are saved.

    Thus those laws can become a means by which people today are blinded from the truth. The truth is they have no power to save even if it is still perfectly OK to observe them in different forms.

  • 78. The Apostate  |  July 30, 2008 at 3:04 am

    The difference is that we are (since Paul explained the mystery) not required to keep that law in order to be saved.

    Funny how Jesus forgot to mention that little tidbit about the salvation of our souls, eh? Thank God that Paul could take over and straighten out that whole mess.

  • 79. Mudshark in your Mythology  |  July 30, 2008 at 11:38 am

    Apostate—-

    Not sure what you mean. If you read the Gospel of John Jesus speaks over and over again about the salvation of one’s soul. In the other Gospel’s he says “What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul”? A may be misunderstanding where you are coming from though. If so, could you elaborate?

    Thanks.

  • 80. notcalvin  |  July 30, 2008 at 11:48 am

    I think it is very clear in the gospels that Jesus saw himself as the sacrifical lamb of God. His agony in the garden tells that he knew that God was going to use him as the final ceremonial lamb. He would satisfy the Law and take the sins of the world upon himself.

  • 81. The Apostate  |  July 30, 2008 at 6:21 pm

    Mudshark,

    Not sure what you mean. If you read the Gospel of John…

    …And hence the inclusion of the Johannine gospel into the canon. There is nothing historical about the gospel, other than the fact that it was written in history – most likely a century after Jesus died. The gospel of John has nothing in common with the earlier synoptic gospels and explicitly contradicts the already problematic time-line given in the earlier gospels. This is the beauty of the mangled compilation we call the Bible – if one theology from one book doesn’t mesh with what you want to believe, you either ignore it or you warp it to fit the theology of another book. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all agree, on differing parts of the theological spectrum, that Jesus was a revolutionary Jewish teacher touched in some special way by the Jewish God, bringing a great new interpretation of the law. He did not come to save any one’s soul. To believe this concept is a perversion of what Jesus could have even fathomed and it is blatantly anti-Jewish. It is an obvious creation based on apocalypticism and contemporary Hellenistic religious philosophy. Try reading the Gospel of John through Jewish eyes – if you can.

  • 82. Mudshark  |  July 30, 2008 at 7:17 pm

    Apostate–

    In Matthew, Mark and Luke Jesus says things such as “the son of man came to give his life as a ransom for many”–he makes much reference to his death on the cross. I’d have to do some reading for specific verses, but he does mention dying to redeem the lost. One example would be the thief on the cross in Luke where he asks “Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom” and Jesus says “Behold, I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise”. The thief had no chance to follow the Law to obtain righteousness–all he could do was put faith in Jesus—and Jesus told him he was saved. Again though, I may be misunderstanding where you are coming from, and if so, my apologies.

  • 83. The Apostate  |  July 30, 2008 at 8:08 pm

    Mudsark, you will have to give specific passages in make you case. The one you gave only suggests that Jesus belived in an afterlife and that, according to Jesus’ teachings, this thief could make it there – this was not about being “buddies with Jesus.” If you want to read scripture with any integrity, read it from the point of view of the author – not a 20th century Gentile.

  • 84. dangerouschristian  |  July 31, 2008 at 10:55 am

    Once upon a time, I was a big cheerleader of tithing and would be quick to cite the same answers you mentioned in your post. But things have changed…

    Beside the fact that tithing’s no longer required in the church (and there are many Christian authors to back me up), today’s economic situation makes it very challenging. Like neo in the first post, I am a husband and father trying to provide for his family. With rising energy costs, killer property taxes, and our sliding from a recession into a depression what’s more important: tithing or keeping a roof over my family’s head? Tithing or keeping the lights and heat on? Tithing or groceries? Tithing or just trying to live?

    As our economic downslide continues, you’ll see more and more preachers emphasizing tithing. And like many of us with responsibilities, you’ll see less and less in the tithe box.

    Those are my “two cents”. Peace!

  • 85. LeoPardus  |  July 31, 2008 at 11:05 am

    Just a note here, 85 posts into the thread, that I disagree with the title of the article. I think tithing is not the church’s greatest lie. The biggest/greatest one is “There is a God” and to make it worse “There is a God who reeeeaaaalllyyyy loves you”

  • 86. Walter  |  August 4, 2008 at 6:05 pm

    Tithing was a covenant between the jewish land owners and the Levites. Money was not a Tithable commodity. It was only from the land. Fishermen didn’t tithe, boat builders didn’t tithe, tent makers didn’t tithe, carpenters didn’t tithe it was only from the land. Preachers are always quoting Malachi 3-8 – 3-12, they never quote before or after these verses. The Jews married out of their faith and worshiped pagen gods, offered up blind and sick and lame animals. They broke the covenant with the levites.

  • 87. john t.  |  August 4, 2008 at 9:04 pm

    #85

    Leo the lie may be that people have tried to quantify(Name) the energy that gives life to our Universe. As of yet we are not able to do that. But Im sure its just a matter of time. So for the time being I will rely on my intuition. ;)

  • 88. thenonconformer  |  August 5, 2008 at 8:32 am

    NOW I already DO UNDERSTAND muslims ARE NOT JEWS OR CHRISTIANS, BUT MUSLIMS DO CLAIM TO FOLLOW THE GOOD EXAMPLE SET FORTH BY their great great grandfather ABRAHAM, who had voluntarily given his tithe of 10 percent of all his income to God? THE SAME FOUNDING FATHER IN THE MUSLIM, JEWS AND GENTILES RELIGION NOW TOO.

    And Muslims clearly using the tithe to help pay serve the poor people is more in line with the tithe obligations practiced in the Old testament, and In the new testament, and is very unlike the tithe being practiced in the Christian Churches today. Although the old testament had a minimum of 1/7 of the tithe, of the 10 percent of the income, of the profits, or about 1.5 % TO THE POOR PEOPLE , WHILE the new testament had no limit AS TO how much one could give TO THE POOR PEOPLE.

    Is this not so?

    Some people would say that oaf all the religions in the world, I would have to say that the Christian and Mormon cult are the richest because of forced tithing. But yet they are not known for helping the poor people still.. Makes one wonder doesn’t it?

    http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/05/29/the-ttihe/

    From: kirsten johnston
    Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:39 AM
    Subject: Tithes

    As muslims we are requested to pay a yearly tith or zakat with is about 2.25% on our profits. This is usually paid before the end of Ramadan and is then distributed to the needy only. If every one would do this, there would be no poor, but many of those who can pay easily do not.

    the pastors— or Imams who lead the congregation in prayers and give lecturs or sermons especially before the Friday prayers, are payed from a different account. This is determined if the mosque is publically or privately owned. If it is private than the owner pays out of his own pocket. If it is public, the those who attend donate to a “box” weekly, or others donate a monthly amount towards the upkeep of the building and paying the Imam which in some countries is around $500-800 a month.

    In some cases the amount will not be enough and then the community leader will have to go around and try to do fundraisers.

    Hope this helps answer your question.

    Every child is

    A work of art
    K. Hanin Nakhal
    Educational Consultant ADHD/ADD
    Washington State University
    P.O.Box 340 * Riyadh 11351 * Saudi Arabia
    966-1-249-0440 x 491
    966-502423949

    http://www.islamzpeace.wordpress.com

  • 89. thenonconformer  |  August 5, 2008 at 8:40 am

    (Heb 7:1 KJV) For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
    3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
    5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

    (Heb 7:11 KJV) If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    (Heb 7:13 KJV) For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
    15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
    19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. 20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: 21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with

    THE NEW TESTAMENT TITHING VERSES NO ONE SEEMS TO REFER TO AND WHY?

  • 90. thenonconformer  |  August 5, 2008 at 8:51 am

    (Gen 14:18 KJV) And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. 19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: 20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. 21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

    (Lev 27:26 KJV) Only the firstling of the beasts, which should be the LORD’S firstling, no man shall sanctify it; whether it be ox, or sheep: it is the LORD’S.
    (Lev 27:28 KJV) Notwithstanding no devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the LORD of all that he hath, both of man and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the LORD.
    (Lev 27:30 KJV) And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.
    (Lev 27:31 KJV) And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. 34 These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

    THE OLD TESTAMENT TITHING VERSES NO ONE SEEMS TO REFER TO AND WHY?

  • 91. Laacey  |  October 21, 2008 at 8:53 pm

    Amen! This article was well written.

  • 92. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  October 23, 2008 at 3:07 pm

    Tithing is a farce and a lie from the pits of hell, we are no longer required to tithe a matter fact in 1 Corinthians it states not to give with grudging heart but give as your heart desire…God loves a cheerful giver. some manipulative preachers clouded so many minds, that folks don’t know how to think for themselves. “the least we can do is give a little back to God” Are you serious. God is all powerful, he doesn’t need anything from us, but he does want us to show our neihbors (Fellow Man) the same love he show’s us. Think people Think!!! God gave us a brain, if you don’t know what your being told as undeniable truth, then question it!!! Folks will tell you anything to control you and take your money. You don’t get to know God by going to Church, but by being real with yourself and others. Remeber that you are the chuch, not some building or organization. the Modern church is decieved and the church organization is decieving many.

  • 93. BigHouse  |  October 23, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Think people Think!!! God gave us a brain, if you don’t know what your being told as undeniable truth, then question it!!!

    Does this also count for questioning God existence?

  • 94. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  October 24, 2008 at 5:36 pm

    Think people Think!!! God gave us a brain, if you don’t know what your being told as undeniable truth, then question it!!!

    Does this also count for questioning God existence?

    Big House,Yes it does, and that the facinating thing about it, when you question, most of the time you tend to seek. And when you seek you tend to find. Somethings you find can be disturbing, but that’s the beauty and sometimes curse of seeking truth. The Bible references that the Earth is 6200 odd years old, but scientist have found fossil evendence and rock evidence to show that the earth is much more older…right there you can question if the bible is literally true? Fundamental Christianity will tell you the bible is literally true, but you have to go into the history of bible and how it came to be, to come up with your own conclusion. From my standpoint I believe the bible is spiritual truth,and I believe there is a God/Intellegent and I believe that through the teachings of Christ you can find and obtain truth and heaven.
    We come into this world knowing nothing, but leave this world knowing what we learned from our parent, Friends, experience, etc, but what if we were isolated and our parents never knew of God or christianity or any type of religion, but just knew and was aware that you was alive. Wouldn’t you question your existence or how everything came to be? You may think the Wind or Trees are Gods…my point is as Christ pointed out in the bible, we must become like children if you are to obtain heaven, that is to un-learn what you learned and seek truth.

  • 95. Rover  |  October 24, 2008 at 7:43 pm

    Not a church anymore,

    I disagree with your statement that the church is not an organization. Yes the church is described as the invisible body of Christ but it also described as on organization. It has leadership, Elders, it has rules, it practices discipline, it is said to be located in certain places, it practices sacriments, etc…

  • 96. Aussie Ali  |  October 24, 2008 at 10:20 pm

    Not a Church Goer said:
    “as Christ pointed out in the bible, we must become like children if you are to obtain heaven, that is to un-learn what you learned and seek truth.”

    The phrase “to become like children” is often used to portray the ideal way to seek God. But when you really start thinking about it I’m not sure what the benefit is.
    Not a Church said it is to unlearn what you learned.. that doesn’t seem to be childlike to me. Children are expected to do as they are told not to question and unlearn what they were taught. That’s what adults do.
    For an adult to become child-like they must throw away doubt, disbelief, experience, knowledge and wisdom. That sounds like an impossible task for many and would create a pretty empty headed Christian.

  • 97. Anonymous  |  October 24, 2008 at 10:25 pm

    Rover, you’re right, the church system that man created is a organization; methadist, cathalics, baptist, epicastal, penecastal, 7 day, etc…that’s not what God intended, so many folks are confused and God is not the aurthur of confusion, read the Gospels of Matthew, mark, luke and john, Christ ain’t about an organization, Paul probably is, but when you read his epistles and research the history of the early church, no man had a greater status than another man who believed in Christ. Organized reliegion is a farce and a avenue to idolotry, folks worship the pastor and preachers and don’t even know it.

  • 98. Anonymous  |  October 25, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Aussie Ali, I guess in didn’t go into more detail…think about all the traditions we practice, why do we practice or hold certain traditions? how do traditions go on year after year? Many Christians practice easter and Christmas and really don’t know the reason why, easter and christmas, both based off of pagan religions became christian holidays and tradition. That’s the whole aspect of being reborn, the world gave us experiences as we grew up knowing nothing, but what Christ was saying as far as becoming child like was in reference to being re-born. in order to obtain heaven and truth we must unlearn what we learned spirtually. I grew up in a cathalic household, I did first communion, I honored the Pope, I did confession, but as I grew older, I questioned all that, not because of rebellion but because there was no consistancy with catholocism and the teachings of Jesus…From that point I knew nothing and sought truth in the matter. If you reference I believe the book of Mark, Jesus says he spoke to the people in parables, because if he would of flat out told them the bottom line, they would of been saved (paraphrasing). Why didn’t Jesus just flat out tell them the bottom line instead of a parable?? I’ll leave you with that…We have our Earthly Wisdom, Knowledge, and experience. But this thing is from a spiritual aspect. Seek and you shall find.

  • 99. Karl  |  June 9, 2009 at 10:13 pm

    To everyone on this site who has rejected God because of a bad church experience – including the deception of the tithe:

    The 21st century church is truly the harlot spoken about in the book of Revelation. There is so much about the modern “church” which is in complete contradiction to the New Testament church. It is no wonder that people turn away.

    But please remember: the true Gospel is about the coming Kingdom of God. The true Gospel is about the fact that as sinners we have no hope other than eternal damnation and condemnation without a Savior. Jesus Christ died on the cross to rescue us from the seemingly inevitable consequence of our disobedience. We are all sinners. And we are all in need of the Savior, Jesus Christ, to lead us to the hope of our eternity: Jesus – who died in our place so that we could live.

    My guess, for those of you who have rejected religion, you have done so because you have been promised a good life on this earth that never materialized through the Christian practices that you were taught. But most of this teaching is complete heresy. And a majority of churches are teaching this heresy. Jesus never promised that our lives here would be easy. The church has lied to you – leaving you to think that if you just believe in God and receive Jesus as your Savior and make the appropriate amount of sacrifice, your life will be rosy. If you just contribute the right amount of your money and time and effort and talent, God will bless you – no questions asked.

    That is NOT the Gospel. The Gospel message is simply to save you from the ultimate eternal death we all deserve because of our sin, and lead you into life everlasting. That means that our goal is not to build up our treasure here on earth, or to measure our success by what we accomplish in terms of man’s ideals, but rather to store up treasures in heaven, that is, by living a holy life – no matter how easy or difficult that life may be – that is pleasing to God.

    The Gospel is about your soul for eternity, not about your needs for today. God WILL supply your needs, but your focus must not be on living the ultimate life here and now, but rather on directing your attention on the life to come when Christ returns and establishes a Kingdom of peace, purity, love and power that we cannot even begin to comprehend.

    I pray that you will return to the faith, and that God will lead you to a fellowship of believers – it will probably be a small group! – that believes the true Gospel and that uses its resources to help the needy and has a desire to spread the real Gospel – the Good News of eternal life – nothing more, nothing less.

    The Scriptures are very clear about the false prophets and false doctrine that would dominate the church in the final days. It seems that most of us have experienced it. Return to the fundamental truth of your salvation – the real Gospel. Your eternity is depending on it!!

    Love in Christ!

  • 100. Quester  |  June 9, 2009 at 11:13 pm

    Karl,

    You don’t have to guess why we don’t believe in any gods. A little looking around would have shown you some of the reasons- http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/07/inconvenient-categories-the-really-real-reasons-de-cons-left-the-faith/

  • 101. oh boy  |  August 4, 2009 at 11:01 am

    I used to give all my money to the church; left me penniless and broke and without electricity in my apartment. Went to the megachurch I had been tithing to and they wouldn’t give me eighty dollars to turn my electricity and heat back on. I was very hurt and discouraged.

    I learned over the years that the american church has drifted from the bible. They have changed the gospel and added to it. You won’t know this if you don’t study and read the bible for yourself.

    Being a Christian is good; being a religious follower of deceit is bad. Stick with Jesus, even if you don’t go to church. We are called to follow Him alone.

  • 102. paleale  |  August 4, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    oh boy

    I learned over the years that the american church has drifted from the bible. They have changed the gospel and added to it. You won’t know this if you don’t study and read the bible for yourself.

    I guess you never put 2 and 2 together to realize that people ‘read[ing] and studying the bible for [themselves]’ is what caused the drift.

    Being a Christian is good; being a religious follower of deceit is bad. Stick with Jesus, even if you don’t go to church. We are called to follow Him alone.

    Which version of Jesus are we to stick with? The hippy, happy Jesus who just wants to love and forgive everybody? The Calvinist Jesus who predetermines who will or will not be saved before they are even born? The Mormon Jesus who visited the Native Americans (who were apparently a lost tribe of Jews)? How do you know your version which you have gleaned from your reading of Scripture is the correct one and not just a product of your own desire for who you want Jesus to be, assuming that he exists.

    Please go back and take some time to examine your statement and your life and all your reasons for believing what you do.

  • 103. thenonconformer  |  August 23, 2009 at 7:17 am

    I liked this page http://banpreachergreed.tripod.com/id11.html

  • 104. Lorraine  |  December 12, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    I came into the truth about tithing some years ago when a friend told me about a book entitled “The Truth about Tithes & Offerings”. I am saddened by how the churches, even some of the ministers, I admire and respect stick to this principal and ignore what Christ taught. Walking away from a church or organization is one thing but walking away from a personal relationship with your saviour is something totally different – the church was not designed to save us it is for fellowship – accepting Jesus Christ as your savior is where salvation is – there are churches like the Church of God in Christ that do not believe in tithing – but watch out they may have other red flags like – no music in the church?????
    Bottom line – rest in God not man.

  • 105. Quester  |  December 13, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    For me, the biggest red flag is if they tell us what a supernatural being wants us to do, without any evidence that the being even exists, let alone how it communicates to them.

  • 106. Anon  |  September 20, 2010 at 1:25 am

    In Matthew 23:23 Jesus placed mercy faithfulness and truth before tithing but Jesus was speaking to Jews still under the law because he had not yet died on the cross. By fulfilling the law for us we have been set free from any charge against us Romans 8:32. Hebrew 8:6 & 7

  • 107. BigHouse  |  September 20, 2010 at 4:29 pm

    So much for a constant standard for us human, eh Anon?

  • 108. Suz  |  December 10, 2010 at 5:19 am

    When in doubt refer to the verses in the Holy Text (Bible) KJV

    Galatians 3:13 “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, by being made a curse for us, for it is written cursed is anyone who hangeth on a tree”

    Galatians 3:14 ” That the blessings of Abraham may come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ that we may recieve the promise through faith.

    Galatians 3:24 ” So The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ so that we might be justified by faith”

    Galatians 3:25 ” But now that faith has come we are no longer under a Schoolmaster

    Galatians 5:4 ” Christ is become of no effect to you whosoever of you who are justified by the law, ye have fallen from Grace.

    James 2:10 ” For whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles at one point is guilty of them all.

    There were 613 Jewish laws and seven Jewish Feast.

    ALL Feast and Levitical laws had to be kept according to the terms and condition of the Old Covenant Contract, including Sabbath Observance which started Friday night to Saturday night, no work or activity at all on the Sabbath, Circumcision of all Jewish males on the eight day of their life, keeping all Jewish holidays such as Pass Over, Feast of Tabernacles, Day of Atonement, Animal Sacrifices etc.

    This is gross inconsistency to pick out one law out of many to keep when all had to be kept?

    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law or he didn’t!

    He said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. When Jesus said “it is finished, as in Paid in full” he fulfilled the law in our place.

    Give Jesus the credit and not the your tithe payments. No one has the right to steal the glory of the payment Jesus made and replace it with their own!

    After Jesus died on the Cross there is no mandate to keep any Old Covenant law to gain favor from God. You cannot find one requirement to keep the law for justification and right standing with God after Jesus died on the Cross. The word tithe is not mentioned after the Cross.

    Our favor is a result of the payment Jesus made on the Cross! Sadly few people are being taught that Grace means unmerited favor and Paid in full gives us the right to go to God in Jesus name free of charge. So if tithing was before the law so was circumcision yet they do not demand all males be circumcised. Jesus placed mercy, faith and honesty before tithing but he said to not leave it undone in Matthew 23:23 but he was speaking to Jews still under the law because he had not yet died on the Cross to fulfill the law. The Holy Spirit is our guide and teacher and will lead us into all truth unless we resist Him and hold on to manmade rules, rituals and traditions.
    Give freely and voluntarily but I pray that Pastors would stop teaching that blood bought redeemed people can still be cursed for not keeping the law. We are not Jews under the Old Covenant but we have been grafted into a NEW Covenant and Dispensation of Grace (unearned favor)!

  • 109. Suz  |  December 10, 2010 at 5:26 am

    Other Scriptures in Hebrews 8:6 & 7, mention Jesus as our Better Covenant under better promises.

    I agree that voluntary Tithing in principle is an act of worship and thanksgiving but it is not because of fear of being cursed when Jesus gook our curse on the Cross!

  • 110. Ubi Dubium  |  December 10, 2010 at 9:52 am

    OK, there’s my laugh for the day. You quote your ancient book that’s full of rules for enforcing monetary/material support of a parasitical priesthood. You say that other parts in your book say that you don’t have to to that anymore (ignoring still other parts that say that you do). But then you turn around and say it’s still a really good idea.

    If you are going to donate boatloads of your hard-earned cash, maybe you should send it directly to organiztions that will spend it on feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, providing medical care to those who lack it, and any of the hundred other worthwhile things you could support. Just don’t give it to a church that will spend it on building ostentatious buildings, buying expensive luxuries for the clergy and sending religious books to the starving, sick and homeless.

  • 111. Tim  |  January 4, 2011 at 11:04 pm

    I came to know Jesus reading the bible and I believe it is the record of the true and living God. I don’t have all the answers, but…WHAT I DO NOT KNOW, DOES NOT NEGATE WHAT I DO KNOW.
    Re: Tithing. If you want to give 10% of your income to the church and you do that in faith, ( whatever is not from faith is sin.
    Romans 14:23 ), then do it.
    Jesus said give and it will be given to you. One day, as the bible states, Jesus will have a reward, to give to each according to their works. But without faith it is impossible to please God (Revelation 22:12 Hebrews 11:6 ) We should give in faith, as we purpose in our hearts, trusting God.
    Tithing was clearly part of Jewish law and they were required to do so, out of love to provide for others, and in the New testament we are told to give as we purpose in our hearts, not grudgingly, but cheerfully. (Hebrews 7:5 and 2 Corinthians 9:7 ) Certainly giving is exercising our faith.
    My favorite response from a Pastor was this, ” I personally believe in tithing, but I understand those who believe otherwise, as long as you live a life of giving. I don’t make it a source of division or discord.” Amen!

  • 112. Ubi Dubium  |  January 5, 2011 at 12:43 am

    BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

    (Rats! Now I have to dry off my keyboard!)

    So your all-powerful creator god who can do anything and work miracles and will grant all your prayers needs money? He works in mysterious ways, except he wants your cash?

    It’s pastors who delight in cheerful givers. What’s a flock for, except to be fleeced?

  • 113. cag  |  January 5, 2011 at 1:47 am

    I came to know Kermit reading the Muppets and I believe it is the record of the true and living Frog. I don’t have all the answers, but…WHAT I DO NOT KNOW, DOES NOT NEGATE WHAT I DO KNOW.

  • 114. Suz  |  January 21, 2011 at 6:16 pm

    Romans 6:14
    For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

    Matthew 23:23 was to Jews still under the law because Jesus had not yet died on the Cross to fulfill the law in our place.

    Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law for as the scriptures say cursed is anyone who hangs on a tree,

    Galatians 3:14 so that THE BLESSING of Abraham would fall on the Gentiies through faith … Note it does not say through tithing!
    I want the tithe Propandist to tell me how can you be cursed for not keeping the Mal. 3:8- and redeemed from the curse of the law at the same time? Galatians 3:13 was written last!

    Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

    Finally Galatians 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen from Grace, you are cut off!

    said you may not even be saved if you are trying to gain your righteous by keeping the law.

  • 115. Guest  |  January 21, 2011 at 6:21 pm

    When Jesus said in John 19:30 It is finished as in Paid in full,
    notice he did not say it is partially finished only 80 percent and you pay the other ten. He fulfilled the whole of the law for us, all
    613 Jewish Ordinances of the law.

    Romans 8:32 God did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all surely he will with him (Jesus) FREELY GIVE US ALL THINGS. Note it did not say after you pay your tithes he will freely give us all things.
    I wish God’s redeemed understood Grace vs. Law. Old Covenant vs New Covenant but there is none so blind as those who refuse to see.

  • 116. Guest  |  January 21, 2011 at 6:30 pm

    Bible Illiteracy is the real reason people become brainwashed cult followers who parrot their Pastors or Elders and not the bible!
    Pew Research polled Christians on bible knowledge and it’s no surprise they scored at the bottom of the barrel below Mormons and atheist. True story look it up.. Only one out of ten Christians icould explain God’s Plan of Salvation, only one in 3 could tell you what the Four Gospels are (as in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) few could tell you the difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant.

    .Many Chrisitans do not know the meaning of the word Eschatology (study of Revelation and the end times). The shocker of all is not knowing that Genesis is the first book of the bible and what the blessed Hope is (Christ return).
    Sad truly sad!

  • 117. Guest  |  January 21, 2011 at 6:45 pm

    Speaking of end times check out the book by Paul McGuire
    “Are you ready to recieve the Microchip? This could very well be Revelation unfolding before our eyes.

    The Beast appears to be a system of Government.
    What seemed crazy a hundred yrs ago is now a possiblilty
    of a one world currency, one world bank and one world government. Revelation is the unveiling of the end times and the return of Christ second appearance. It was laughable to say a chip as small as a rice could be imbedded in your hand but now animals have that chip. It was crazy to say: the whole world would see at one time the Anti-Christ now we have internet, television, etc. It was crazy yrs ago to say a world system called the Beast and Anti-Christ could track your every move. OH HAPPY DAY JESUS IS REALLY COMING BACK!
    STAY TUNED! Keep studying Eschatology all you mockers and scorners of Christ.
    Revelation 13:17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.

  • 118. BigHouse  |  January 22, 2011 at 4:21 pm

    I wish God’s redeemed understood Grace vs. Law. Old Covenant vs New Covenant but there is none so blind as those who refuse to see.

    I think I’m willing to cut people slack given how cryptic the Bible is written and given God is apparently not interested in giving us more direct and current information.

    OH HAPPY DAY JESUS IS REALLY COMING BACK!
    STAY TUNED!

    Just curious, but how much time would have to pass before this belief wouldn’t be relaistic anymore to you?

  • 119. Eve's Apple  |  January 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm

    Ok, Guest, I have a few questions for you. I have heard this kind of talk about the Mark of the Beast, chips and so forth since the 1970’s. What I would like to know is how folks like you are preparing.

    If it is true that in the very near future we will not be able to buy or sell anything without the Mark of the Beast, then how do you and your loved ones plan to survive? Yes, you could probably grow some of your own food, but rent, mortgages, taxes, they will all have to be paid–and I doubt the authorities will take barter. What if either you or someone in your family needs the kind of medical care that homegrown herbal medicines can’t take care of? How about fuel for your vehicles?

    Like I said, I have heard this kind of talk for 40 years now, and the only folks I can think of that are even beginning to plan for this type of scenario are the Peak Oil folks with their Transition Town communities. At least they are trying to do something.
    But I have yet to hear anyone talk about setting up an alternate economy to counteract the New World Order and the Antichrist. Is it because you don’t think it will be necessary because you will all be raptured beforehand? I am just wondering.

  • 120. Ubi Dubium  |  January 24, 2011 at 10:16 am

    You know, the Amish have done a pretty good job keeping their alternate economy. But I don’t see the end-timers rushing to join them. For all their big talk, few of the rapture-believers actually act like they truly believe it.

    Today’s Tree Lobsters cartoon puts it perfectly: http://www.treelobsters.com/ (cartoon #226, if you are tuning in later)

  • 121. Guest  |  February 15, 2011 at 3:57 pm

    What is so odd about the Christian Tithe Police (PASTOR THAT TEACH MANDATORY TITHING), is that they are Not even teaching the correct way to tithe. Tithes were paid with food and animal sacrifices.

    God never asked for money ( silver or gold coins), which they did have back then.

    Jesus said tithing was not even the most important (weightier) matter of the law and it was still in effect because Jesus had not yet gone to the Cross! in Matthew 23:23

    Why is tithing the only law the Tithe Police promote? What about keeping the Sabbath on Frid night to Sat. night do nothing but sit and rest!

    Why don’t they teach to stop eating Pork? Why no instruction to circumcise all male babie on the 8th day after their birith?
    Why aren’t we stoning Christians for Adultery? That was a law too. No grace was given they were under the law, not Grace!

    I am convinced that a majority of Christians have no clue as to what Jesus meant by Grace vs Law and Jesus declaration that “It is fiinished” He fulfilled the law! He said Heaven and Earht would not pass away from one jot of the law but the tithe Police forget the words “UNTIL” all has been fulfilled!

    2nd Corinthians 9:7 “Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

    John 1:16 “For of his fullness we all received, and grace for grace.”

    John 1: 17 “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ

    John 19:30………. It is finished means

    Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, through the law we become conscious of sin.

    Roman 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace

    Acts 20:33 (Apostle Paul Speaking) I have coveted no ones gold, silver or apparel

    Acts 20:34 You yourselves know I have work for everything me and my companions needed

    Acts 13:39 ..and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

    Galatians 3:24 “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith”

    Galatians 3:25 ” But after faith is come we are no longer under a School master.

    John 19:30 “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, “It is finished,” and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit”

    Acts 15: 5 “But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

    Apostle Peter Speaking:
    Acts 15:8 “God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us”.

    Acts 15:9 “and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith”.
    (not law keeping)

    Acts 15:10 ” Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?”

    Acts 15:19 “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God”,

    Acts 15:24 “Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions”, (on keeping the laws of Moses/ circumcisions)

    Acts 15:28 “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements”:

    Acts 15:29 “that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

    (Important to Note: There was no instruction to the Gentiles from the Apostles to tithe and keep the law of Moses as mandatory)

    Galatians 2:21 “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

    Galatians 3:1 “O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified.

    Galatians 3:2 “This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

    Galatians 3:3 “Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?”

    Galatians 3:5 “Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—

    Acts 15:19 “Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God”,

    Acts 15:24 “Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions”, (on keeping the laws of Moses/ circumcisions)

    Acts 15:28 “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements”:

    Acts 15:29 “that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell

    Galatians 3:11 “Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”

    Galatians 3:12 “However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.”

    Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us– for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE “–

    Galatians 3:14 “so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith” (note: we have the blessing by faith, not works)

    Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    Galatians 5:2 “Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

    Galatians 5:3 “And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law”.

    Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace”.

    Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

    Ephesians 2:15 “by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace”

    Colossians 2 :14 “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

    Colossians 2:15 “When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed
    over them through Him.

    Hebrews 8:6 ” But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

    Hebrews 8:7 “For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second”.

    Colossians 2 :14 “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

    Hebrews 8:13 “When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear”.

    Hebrews 7:28 “For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever”.

    Dear Tithe Police Officers:
    No one is saying to not tithe just saying we are not under the Covenant of law and are free to cheerfully give voluntarily not by a lying mandate. We Give not pay cause we realize Jesus did our paying! It is finished.

  • 122. Guest  |  February 15, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Jesus said in John 19:30 “IT IS FINISHED”.

    This means i”Paid in full”

    Not half way, or 80 percent but Paid in full !

  • 123. Guest  |  February 15, 2011 at 4:07 pm

    Yes I voluntary give a tenth when the Lord puts it on my heart to give this way, but I am not paying for what Jesus already paid to give me….God’s free Gift of ( unmerited) favor.
    Wish tithe enforcers would stop glorying in their own tithe payments and boast in the payment Jesus made.
    Will the real God robbers stand up? I mean the ones robbing the Lord of the credit due him for dying on the Cross which is the only reason God freely give us all things.
    Romans 8;32

  • 124. Ubi Dubium  |  February 15, 2011 at 8:24 pm

    tl;dr:

    “Bible thump, bible thump, bible thump. All those Christians out there aren’t real Christians, but I know the real Truth (TM). More bible thumping.”

    Sheesh.

  • 125. Eve's Apple  |  February 16, 2011 at 6:46 pm

    Has anyone considered the possibility that “Guest” and others like him/her/it might not be human? Think about it. “Guest” shows no sign of responding to our conversations but keeps on rambling. In other words, would “Guest” be able to pass a Turing test? I don’t think so. So I am thinking that this particular troll is a computer program.

    Don’t laugh. I am serious. It’s commonplace now to pick up the phone and make an airline reservation for example and have a perfectly normal conversation with the machine at the other end. Some of these programs are so good that it’s hard to tell that you are not talking to a human who might have a little difficulty understanding English because it is not his or her first language.

    I suspect that DC is being invaded for some reason; I don’t know why, but ever since all that gibberish started showing up last year I began to think that someone was behind it for a malicious reason. Any computer shop can tell you that there are a lot of people out there who have nothing better to do with their lives than to think up ways of screwing up other people’s computers. So it is not beyond reason to think that “Guest” is not what he/she/it appears to be on the surface. I have noticed that many websites, such as the Weather Channel, require you to type in a scrambled word or two in order to prove that you are not a machine. It would be very interesting to see what would happen if DC adopted this policy.

    Just a thought.

  • 126. Guest  |  March 2, 2011 at 3:22 am

    Eve’s apple has no good argument for tithing but those who object are not human, yes we are real and you may be the fake!

  • 127. BigHouse  |  March 3, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    “Eve’s apple has no good argument for tithing ..”

    Because there is NO good argument FOR tithing.

    Hoisted by thy own petard!!

  • 128. Eve's Apple  |  March 3, 2011 at 9:32 pm

    Interesting. I wasn’t making an argument for or against tithing. In fact, I don’t recall using the word tithe at all. Which only increases my conviction that we are dealing with a cleverly pre-programmed machine, one that is incapable of a real conversation.

    I may indeed be a fake, but I at least can pass a Turing test!

  • 129. Ann  |  June 5, 2011 at 5:46 am

    To Eve’s Apple don’t knock the Guest that bring the word of God. The final authority is the Bible for any good Christian would know this. People need to know what the bible says regarding this subject, esp. since they obviously don’t study enough to keep from getting mislead by the tithe legalist. Quit using the excuses that Guest may not be real! That makes you sound .. well …kind of sorry but like an idiot. We need the truth after being lied to for so long!

  • 130. Ubi Dubium  |  June 6, 2011 at 7:45 am

    Ann-
    “Any good Christian”??? Did you even look at the website where you are? Apparently not.

  • 131. nwa chi  |  June 8, 2011 at 2:15 am

    plz if u don’t have better thing to introduce to the world ,u better sit down.dont make your self enemy of God,this your planting is seed of backsliding ,proverb 6v16,said about that ur publishing here,and God hate it with passion.make sure you ask for forgiveness …..

  • 132. cag  |  June 8, 2011 at 4:06 pm

    nwa chi #131 – In order to hate, your god has to exist. Like all the other thousands of gods, yours is non existent. Imaginary enemies are no threat to anyone who has moved beyond the monster under the bed.

    Quoting your proverb

    16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    Your wicked imagination has gotten away from you – belief in the imaginary sky monster is, I will aver, an abomination. Superstitious beliefs, such as in a deity, come from a lying tongue. You come here and expect us to accept your lies, the same lies that were told to you as an all believing child. It is now time to grow up and realise that passing on lies is far from noble.

    If I do something wrong, it would be totally useless to ask your imaginary friend for forgiveness. Your god, your jesus and your holy ghost have one thing in common – never existed, don’t exist, never will exist. Grow up.

  • 133. Church of One  |  September 24, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    I have had full membership in three major Christian based churches in my lifetime. They all want money. They all justify their wants by thumping a bible. They all spend a majority of the money collected on real estate investment. I have been a Catholic (20 yrs.) , a Baptist (8 yrs.) ,and a Mormon (12 yrs.) The most important thing I have learned is that I don’t ever need to bother with a church again. The churches want you to believe that they have the authority to sell you Salvation. You can be saved without them. Talk to your God, not theirs. Maybe it is your imaginary friend, maybe not. A real God or an imaginary friend will not ask/tell you to hurt someone or to give money to a real estate developer/money launderer/tax evader/child molester/organized crime syndicate, etc. One would be wise to know that Christianity is not the only religion with a claim of being the only true Church. With so many people laying out the claim “I am right and everyone else is wrong!”, why would an intelligent being listen at all anymore? It simply is not possible for all of the conflicting ideologies to be true. It is, however very possible for every single one of them to be wrong. I am not suggesting that you abandon your Faith, but make sure that your Faith lies with your God, not the church and the people running it. Stop giving your money to them. If you need to talk to God, do it. It doesn’t cost anything. If you believe in your Bible, read it. It shouldn’t need interpretation. Were you given a brain and commanded not to use it?

  • 134. Guest  |  November 11, 2011 at 1:47 am

    The comment against the mandate of paying Tithes and the scriptures to show Tithing is not a mandate for New Covenant Christians was for Christians who come on this site out of curiosity.

  • 135. Guest  |  June 16, 2014 at 4:15 am

    U folks who asked how is Guest to survive the Anti Christ. Hello out there, look up the word Rapture or taken up in relations to the Bible.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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