I too have issues with my beliefs such as blood atonement, hell, original sin, “one way” to God/Heaven myself. Even now, I’m having my own spiritual depression that’s shaking the very core of my beliefs.

It’s a tough one, my brother. But you’re one of those few who is facing the abyss instead of running from it like so many of us.

Peace.

I would agree that John 21 is a strong indication Peter died a martyr’s death. (Of course, John being a late gospel was written after his death, making the “prediction” not so remarkable.) 2 Peter is even stronger support. The person who wrote that certainly knew Peter was dead, and wrote in such a fashion.

But if you had read the articles linked, dying as a martyr is not enough for the claim “die for a lie.” Many, many people have died as martyrs. What you need is a person who claims to have seen a physically resurrected Jesus, AND was given the opportunity to recant in order to avoid death.

Since we don’t have a clue as to how Peter died (and I previously pointed out, even the early church writers provide conflicting tales in that regard) simply knowing he did die is not enough to bolster “die for a lie.”

Just to add. When one drifts from “believing is seeing” to “seeing is believing” as a Christian, one has become blind as Peter notes in 2 Peter 1:

If these are yours and increase in abundance, they will keep you from being idle or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anyone who lacks them is blind and shortsighted, forgetful of the cleansing of his past sins.

Peter is talking about increasing Grace, and one’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. When one fails to do so they become “short-sighted”, using human reason and logic to try to understand God, rather than the Spirit of God within. This shift is from “believing is seeing” to “seeing is believing”, and one is walking in the “natural man”, rather than the “new man”, and has become utterly blind to spiritual things, because he is pursuing the supernatural through natural means.

You are correct. I did not become a Christian from apologetics—I think that is a rare occurrence—C.S. Lewis being an example of a person lead to Christ through that form of persuasion (to begin with—it wasn’t the sole factor in his conversion).

That is why, as I state in this article, I wish I could believe. But I just cannot. I have found that there is just no good reason to.

This is the whole reason that neither of us could ever come to an agreement. You want to “see in order to believe”, but Jesus says “did I not tell you that if you believe you would see…” I believe Peter was martyred, not due to church fathers, but because of John 21 where Jesus tells Peter that when he is old others will take him where he does not want to go, “thus showing him what manner of death he should suffer…” jesus himself says Peter will be martyred, but John will not. That is good enough for me. But of course, that is because I believe the Bible. I should not take the time to try to “prove” anything, because it basically just cannot be done.

“Jake, I am very familiar with 1 Corinthians 15. Can you explain to me how this claim of 500 unknown eyewitnesses can be verified? Can you explain to me why I should take it at face value?”

That’s the point I made after I cited the verse. No, I can’t verify it. I can’t verify that the great flood happened, but it does make good scientific sense, at least in terms of a conclusion that can be drawn from the equivocal evidence.

I also cannot cite eyewitness accounts of the Buddha achieving enlightenment. This does not change the fact that following Buddha’s teachings will lead to a very, very happy and fulfilling life. Obviously, there is some reason to follow Buddha. Obviously, there is some reason to follow Jesus.

I will say, it takes a long, long time for a myth to develop, or a religion for that matter. The Jesus movement sprang up immediately, from a monotheistic belief system (unique in that day).

Also, the bible does not embellish any crazy, hyper-emphatic details of the resurrection. Even though the pure idea of a man rising from the dead, appearing to his followers, and ascending into heaven is quite extraordinary, there’s nothing more listed in the scriptures than what’s necessary to state the “facts”, as we’d call them if we believe. Nothing more than reiterations of what the scriptures had prophesied.

I do not believe you should take the scriptures at face value. I’m in agreement with Paul the Apostle about that. I’m so very glad that you don’t, because doing so is what has gotten Christianity this terrible reputation – this black dog that follows us around. It’s refreshing to run into people who know what they’re talking about, and wrestle with the word – or “The Word”.

Please don’t stop. Continue. I hope I can experience more of it with you, and people like you.

Grace and Peace. -jake

The problem with relying upon the church fathers for verification of the tradition on how the disciples died is that the church fathers contradict. By what method do we choose which portions to believe, and which portions to not? (In fact, they contradict as to the disciple’s travels, and ways in which they died.)

Christian apologists pick and choose only those few words or phrases which support their position. They ignore the problems of all the phrases and words which contradict their position. They are lying to you by not telling you the whole truth. (Quite ironic when the argument is premised on people not dying for a lie, isn’t it?)

Take the merry-go-round of Clement, Peter, Tertullian and James. Clement was one of the first Popes in Rome (the lists of the Church fathers vary as to which number he was.) His papacy started sometime in 88 – 92 CE and ended in 99 CE. During that time he is credited with writing 1 Clement.

An important document (especially in this argument) since it states Peter and Paul were martyrs. (Note: It is possible that “martyrs” meant people who suffered for their faith and held strong confessions, but for our purposes, let’s presume it meant death.)

Therefore we have Clement saying Peter died sometime before writing 1 Clement. However, Tertullian indicates Peter was still alive and ordained Clement as Pope (88 – 92 CE) This flies in the face of Peter being killed during a Neronian persecution (have to be 64-68 CE). (The Acts of Peter and Paul.)

Worse, Church tradition has the letter of Clement written to James on behalf of Peter. But according to Church Tradition, James died in 63 CE at the hands of Ananus. Why would Peter be writing to James in the 90’s CE, when James was allegedly killed in 63 CE and Peter in 64 CE?

So what Church father do you use to set a date for Peter’s death? Tertullian? (post 90 CE), The author of “The Acts of Peter and Paul”? (64-68 CE)? The Author of Clement’s Epistle to James (Pre-63 CE)?

What you will find, if you start studying the tradition of the Church Fathers, is that they disagree quite a bit.

HeIsSailing is correct – this apologetic never works on those of us who have studied it.

(P.S. Nice choice of articles, HeIsSailing. I especially like that first one. *grin*)

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/05/die-for-lie-wont-fly.html

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/how-did-the-apostles-die.html

Because I know these arguments did not convince you to become a Christian – just as they did not convince me to become a Chrisitian – just as they do not convince anybody to be a Christian. I am willing to bet you were a Christian long before you heard the ‘die for a lie’ apologetic, or any other apologetic argument.

As a Christian, I looked at this ‘die for a lie’ argument as an apologetic, and I asked the same questions of it that I asked you. I heard this argument from the pulpit and from Evangelistic books for years, but I finally started to do my own investigating. I asked myself if the assumptions behind the argument had any validity, and after researching, I concluded they did not. The fact is, nobody knows how/when/where or under what circumstances any of the Apostles of Jesus died. They’re supposed martyrdom for the Faith is pure legend.

The ‘die for a lie’ argument simply has no basis.

I critiqued countless apologetic arguments just like this one – all your favorites – I examined them as thoroughly as I could.

In the end, I am convinced that nobody ever converts because of Christian apologetic arguments. People convert because of Faith or conditioning. They learn apologetic arguments later to somehow justify their beliefs. But those apologetics are not why Christians believe. Neither will those apologetics convince people who do not already believe.

That is why, as I state in this article, I wish I could believe. But I just cannot. I have found that there is just no good reason to.

I have to take the word of ancient church fathers like Origen as to how the Apostles were martyred of course.

OK, just what did the ancient church fathers say about the circumstances under which the Apostles died? Do you know? You are bringing up the ‘Die for a Lie’ argument. Can you back it up? Or are you going to take the word of your favorite Christian apologist, unchallenged?

do have to say this though—when I hear of someone saying “Jesus never really existed”–

Joe, you are moving the goalposts. Nobody here is arguing that Jesus never existed.

I have to take the word of ancient church fathers like Origen as to how the Apostles were martyred of course.

No you don’t. You can easily investigate this stuff yourself. Origen and Turtullian spoke of Peter’s martyrdom in Rome. What was thier source of information? They referred to legends that you can read about yourself. You can check out the same legends that they did and see for yourself if they are reliable sources of history. The Acts of Peter, The Acts of Peter and Paul, The Acts of Paul and Thecla, etc.. are all available online.

These non-canonical works are the earliest references that we have to the martyrdoms of Peter and Paul. Again, I urge you to read them before you claim that they died as martyrs rather than deny their faith in the resurrection of Jesus.

That is just the alleged martyrdom of Peter. I will leave it to you to find out information on your assumed martyrdoms of Thomas, Barthalomew, Matthew, Andrew, Nathaniel, etc…