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	<title>Comments on: Science&#8217;s Overlooked Problem</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: curtis</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-5832</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:48:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-5832</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Noogatiger said:
---------------------------
Why did God make arbitrary moral laws based upon the whims of his likes and dislikes and decide to punish forever those who don’t see it his way?
-----------------------------

I&#039;m seriously SO SORRY that your experiences with Christians have shaped this opinion of yours...  there is clearly a lot of history, and pain, in that statement.  I wish that I could undo that somehow, but unfortunately I can&#039;t.

All I can say is this:
The way I read my Bible, that&#039;s not what God&#039;s about at all.  He doesn&#039;t have arbitrary rules that are unknown to people, and then eternally punishes them for not following them.  He created this amazing perfect world, and all of us, but it unfortunately got botched up along the way when we decided that we could figure stuff out better on our own, and that we didn&#039;t need God.  But He&#039;s been continually seeking after us all, to join Him in making the world a beautiful place again; to put things back to the way they were always supposed to be...

It&#039;s not so much &quot;Do this and that, or else you&#039;re going to a bad place when you die&quot; as it is &quot;This place is pretty messed up right now, don&#039;t you want to be a part of the solution here and now, and work alongside a God that cares deeply for you and for everyone and for the whole universe?&quot;

I hope that in some way, this helps you see that not everyone believes the same narrow, fatalistic explanations of Christianity that you have unfortunately been told...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noogatiger said:<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Why did God make arbitrary moral laws based upon the whims of his likes and dislikes and decide to punish forever those who don’t see it his way?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m seriously SO SORRY that your experiences with Christians have shaped this opinion of yours&#8230;  there is clearly a lot of history, and pain, in that statement.  I wish that I could undo that somehow, but unfortunately I can&#8217;t.</p>
<p>All I can say is this:<br />
The way I read my Bible, that&#8217;s not what God&#8217;s about at all.  He doesn&#8217;t have arbitrary rules that are unknown to people, and then eternally punishes them for not following them.  He created this amazing perfect world, and all of us, but it unfortunately got botched up along the way when we decided that we could figure stuff out better on our own, and that we didn&#8217;t need God.  But He&#8217;s been continually seeking after us all, to join Him in making the world a beautiful place again; to put things back to the way they were always supposed to be&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not so much &#8220;Do this and that, or else you&#8217;re going to a bad place when you die&#8221; as it is &#8220;This place is pretty messed up right now, don&#8217;t you want to be a part of the solution here and now, and work alongside a God that cares deeply for you and for everyone and for the whole universe?&#8221;</p>
<p>I hope that in some way, this helps you see that not everyone believes the same narrow, fatalistic explanations of Christianity that you have unfortunately been told&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Barnett</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4080</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Barnett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4080</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey it did it for me!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey it did it for me!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dan Barnett</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4079</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Barnett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4079</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I just found this article that made me think about the agument of creation vs. evolution.  I don&#039;t know how to link in comments, so copy and paste it.  
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp
It&#039;s by Ken Ham.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just found this article that made me think about the agument of creation vs. evolution.  I don&#8217;t know how to link in comments, so copy and paste it.<br />
<a href="http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp</a><br />
It&#8217;s by Ken Ham.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Barnett</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4078</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Barnett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jul 2007 23:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-4078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I personally think that some day we will understand science enough(since we are discovering more and more), that creation and science explain each other.  That sentence isn&#039;t an agument just an opinion.  My question is the Bang.  For the Big Bang believers here, I&#039;m curious if you&#039;d ever thought about this fact.  I haven&#039;t stdied it in detail but found it intersting.  Dr. Kent Hovend is who I leaned this from(yeah he&#039;s in jail, don&#039;t start :-)  ). 
Thee is a theory in physics, not sure of the name, conservation of (maybe) momentum that, as an illustration, if you and I were on a merry-go-round(the old hand pushed platform), with no friction or outside forces acting against us, and we are spinning, then a force instantaneously forces us all of at the same time, we will continue spinning the direction we were as we fly from the platform.  How does this support that the planets do not spin or revolve around the sun the same direction?  Like I said, just curious on this one.  If someone else knows the name and actual definition of this theory please add it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally think that some day we will understand science enough(since we are discovering more and more), that creation and science explain each other.  That sentence isn&#8217;t an agument just an opinion.  My question is the Bang.  For the Big Bang believers here, I&#8217;m curious if you&#8217;d ever thought about this fact.  I haven&#8217;t stdied it in detail but found it intersting.  Dr. Kent Hovend is who I leaned this from(yeah he&#8217;s in jail, don&#8217;t start <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   ).<br />
Thee is a theory in physics, not sure of the name, conservation of (maybe) momentum that, as an illustration, if you and I were on a merry-go-round(the old hand pushed platform), with no friction or outside forces acting against us, and we are spinning, then a force instantaneously forces us all of at the same time, we will continue spinning the direction we were as we fly from the platform.  How does this support that the planets do not spin or revolve around the sun the same direction?  Like I said, just curious on this one.  If someone else knows the name and actual definition of this theory please add it.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3764</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 00:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3764</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Stephen,
yes, our writings are part of the physical world - the point is trivial really.  I&#039;ve read and heard utterances that don&#039;t impinge on the physical world from great minds.  I have heard philisophical and theological considerations...and okay, I&#039;ll concede that they physically cause my eardrums to move.  The stretch you are attempting to make is ambitious to say the least.

I will end by syaing that we will not see eye-to-eye on this.  I still hold by my claim that &quot;science cannot, and does not, provide ample explanation for things such as life’s purpose or God&quot;...because well, it just really doesn&#039;t. 

God Bless,
-Justin]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stephen,<br />
yes, our writings are part of the physical world &#8211; the point is trivial really.  I&#8217;ve read and heard utterances that don&#8217;t impinge on the physical world from great minds.  I have heard philisophical and theological considerations&#8230;and okay, I&#8217;ll concede that they physically cause my eardrums to move.  The stretch you are attempting to make is ambitious to say the least.</p>
<p>I will end by syaing that we will not see eye-to-eye on this.  I still hold by my claim that &#8220;science cannot, and does not, provide ample explanation for things such as life’s purpose or God&#8221;&#8230;because well, it just really doesn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>God Bless,<br />
-Justin</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 18:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin: I&#039;m afraid you are still missing the point entirely. I will have one last try.

Since our utterances and writings are part of the physical world, anything we can talk or write about &lt;i&gt;must necessarily&lt;/i&gt; impinge on the physical world at some point. There is no &quot;perhaps&quot;.

If it still isn&#039;t clear, then try reading the essay I recommended in a previous comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin: I&#8217;m afraid you are still missing the point entirely. I will have one last try.</p>
<p>Since our utterances and writings are part of the physical world, anything we can talk or write about <i>must necessarily</i> impinge on the physical world at some point. There is no &#8220;perhaps&#8221;.</p>
<p>If it still isn&#8217;t clear, then try reading the essay I recommended in a previous comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Noogatiger</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3730</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Noogatiger]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 17:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3730</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Why does God exist?
Why did God create?
Why did God make arbitrary moral laws based upon the whims of his likes and dislikes and decide to punish forever those who don&#039;t see it his way?

Even faith in a God doesn&#039;t answer those questions either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does God exist?<br />
Why did God create?<br />
Why did God make arbitrary moral laws based upon the whims of his likes and dislikes and decide to punish forever those who don&#8217;t see it his way?</p>
<p>Even faith in a God doesn&#8217;t answer those questions either.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 13:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi Stephen,
I went ahead and re-read your post.  I understand your view about analyzing something &quot;deeper&quot; than the physical.

Does it impinge on the physical world?  Perhaps.  However, if it doesn&#039;t, then it doesnt make theological/philosophical considerations irrelevant as I would contend the scientific method isn&#039;t the end all of man&#039;s methodology to  understanding.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Stephen,<br />
I went ahead and re-read your post.  I understand your view about analyzing something &#8220;deeper&#8221; than the physical.</p>
<p>Does it impinge on the physical world?  Perhaps.  However, if it doesn&#8217;t, then it doesnt make theological/philosophical considerations irrelevant as I would contend the scientific method isn&#8217;t the end all of man&#8217;s methodology to  understanding.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 08:24:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Justin: perhaps you could re-read my comment, as you don&#039;t appear to have understood it.

That the entities I mentioned (books, utterances, electrical impulses) differ greatly is obvious and trivial.  But this &quot;deeper&quot; something that you want us to look at: does it impinge on the physical world or not? If so: have you considered the consequences? (i.e. it is not beyond the reach of science). If not: have you considered the consequences? (i.e. you cannot tell us anything about it, and cannot reasonably ask us to look at it).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Justin: perhaps you could re-read my comment, as you don&#8217;t appear to have understood it.</p>
<p>That the entities I mentioned (books, utterances, electrical impulses) differ greatly is obvious and trivial.  But this &#8220;deeper&#8221; something that you want us to look at: does it impinge on the physical world or not? If so: have you considered the consequences? (i.e. it is not beyond the reach of science). If not: have you considered the consequences? (i.e. you cannot tell us anything about it, and cannot reasonably ask us to look at it).</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3698</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jun 2007 02:26:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.com/2007/06/25/sciences-overlooked-problem/#comment-3698</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi HIS,
I think you are right on your assessment of Smith&#039;s argument about &#039;why&#039; complexity increases.  I read it as science does not, nor cannot, explain why things such as water’s electro-magnetic properties exist in the first place - and why they happen to go in the direction of complexity.

I believe that Smith isn&#039;t trying to say that this is a fault with science, but rather that it is a domain for theology (as Steelman indirectly concedes).

On a side note - Smith has been often asked about his views regarding the findings of science.  He addresses the issue head on and has really expressed the need for both science and religion in a manner that eliminates conflict.  I admit that you lose some of his earnest appreciation for the sciences when reading my post (as context is lost in general when relaying quotes).

Stephen P says, &quot;the words we utter, the books we write, and the electrical impulses that travel telecommunications networks are all indubitably part of the physical world.&quot;

in the most basic sense - yes that is true.  But in the effort to move beyond surface considerations we should look deeper than that.  It is like saying, &quot;we are all animals on this planet&quot; (a true statement) but everyone knows that animals differ so greatly that a broad characterization doesn&#039;t do the animal kingdom justice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi HIS,<br />
I think you are right on your assessment of Smith&#8217;s argument about &#8216;why&#8217; complexity increases.  I read it as science does not, nor cannot, explain why things such as water’s electro-magnetic properties exist in the first place &#8211; and why they happen to go in the direction of complexity.</p>
<p>I believe that Smith isn&#8217;t trying to say that this is a fault with science, but rather that it is a domain for theology (as Steelman indirectly concedes).</p>
<p>On a side note &#8211; Smith has been often asked about his views regarding the findings of science.  He addresses the issue head on and has really expressed the need for both science and religion in a manner that eliminates conflict.  I admit that you lose some of his earnest appreciation for the sciences when reading my post (as context is lost in general when relaying quotes).</p>
<p>Stephen P says, &#8220;the words we utter, the books we write, and the electrical impulses that travel telecommunications networks are all indubitably part of the physical world.&#8221;</p>
<p>in the most basic sense &#8211; yes that is true.  But in the effort to move beyond surface considerations we should look deeper than that.  It is like saying, &#8220;we are all animals on this planet&#8221; (a true statement) but everyone knows that animals differ so greatly that a broad characterization doesn&#8217;t do the animal kingdom justice.</p>
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