Calvinism reconciles the character of the God of the Bible

June 29, 2007 at 7:33 am 79 comments

Fork in roadAs a fundamentalist Christian, I was never a true Calvinist. However, I did flirt with Reform Theology as one of my steps in the de-converting process. I remember being totally captivated by the book “The Potter’s Freedom” by James R. White. Now I have come to the conclusion that the only Christian belief system that has any hope of being consistent in their view of God is Calvinism. Inconsistencies in the beliefs of Christianity was one of the primary reasons for my de-conversion journey. The majority of Christians are perfectly comfortable believing mutually exclusive concepts.

We’ve discussed Richard’s Dawkins’ discription of God which lines up with my conclusion and one of the catalysts for my de-conversion:

Jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

However, this is not a problem for Calvinist. God has mercy on who he chooses to have mercy on (Romans 9:15) and can be a total prick to the rest of the world and still be classed as “loving, compassionate, and kind.” It’s quite interesting how that works. It was such a struggle for me to reconcile the God who caused disasters and ignored starving children but since those people were created for those purposes, it saves God from being unjust and unkind. Those were simply not the ones to whom he chose to show his compassion and kindness. Of course, the issue of genocidal-God vs. loving-God was not my only reason for my de-conversion journey.

For those Christians who are struggling with this view of God, maybe you should check out Calvinism if you have not done so already. It won’t answer all your questions but it’s a rational step on your journey.

- The de-Convert

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Preaching Atheism This one is for the ladies

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  • 1. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 29, 2007 at 7:56 am

    The de-Convert,

    At heart I agree. Calvinism was the only doctrine that made any sense. All predetermined, preordained, and prepackaged. Of course some strict Calvinists will come here and take issue with this view, but basically it’s ALL in the hands of God. There’s nothing we can or can’t do that hasn’t already been foreknown or determined. Believe it or not, I found some comfort in this. Odd, I know.

  • 2. Heather  |  June 29, 2007 at 8:24 am

    This is eerie, because I was just thinking along these lines for the past few weeks. Calvinism removes the whole loving and just God allow disasters, the unanswered prayers concept. And it gives a sense of security, because God is in complete control.

    Of course, it also makes God an entity that I’d want nothing to do with, as why create all those people just to torture them?

    However — it seems to only make sense in regards to the New Testament. There are a lot of verses in the Old Testament where God is telling the Israelites to turn to him and they will be saved/lived/ and so forth, implying that the people are in control in that aspect. So maybe it’s Judaism that gives the choice?

  • 3. Slapdash  |  June 29, 2007 at 9:54 am

    What does Calvinism do with the free will side of the equation? Is it completely absent from TULIP (that’s the acronym, right? for the 5-point Calvinists out there)?

  • 4. Slapdash  |  June 29, 2007 at 9:55 am

    Oh, by the way, I’ve started thinking that maybe God just isn’t omnipotent. That would solve a lot of problems, particularly those of suffering. Then it’s not that cold, heartless God just won’t step in because he sooooo values our free will, it’s that God literally can’t prevent or stop the bad stuff that happens in the world.

  • 5. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 29, 2007 at 10:23 am

    Slapdash,

    In a sense, there is no free will in Calvinism (despite what some may claim) because whether you believe or don’t believe, it is up to God. Scientifically, I believe we are genetically coded to be a certain way as well and in that sense no one really has complete “free will” whether God exists or not. I too tend to think that if God exists, God isn’t able to stop the processes of nature because if God could and didn’t God would be arbitrarily capricious, which fits the Old Testament to a tee. Therefore Deism and Calvinism seem to make the most sense.

  • 6. Heather  |  June 29, 2007 at 10:23 am

    Calvinism essentally says that we aren’t free to choose or reject God. God decides who will be saved and damned, and then changes the person accordingly. That’s what the whole ‘elect’ is about: you’re predestined for heaven or hell. Man is not free to choose to love God — God decides if you’ll love him or not.

    It does have a ‘free will’ concept, but in that man is free to choose what kind of sin to use, or something like that.

  • 7. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 29, 2007 at 10:37 am

    Heather,

    Once again, it’s the same old concept that we are “free” to sin, but not to be good. That just occurred to me, interesting. It seems that religionists only recognize that human beings have a will to sin not a will to good. I knew this, but it so prevalent in the thinking that all the evil comes from humans and all the good comes from God. NEVER would they acknowledge evil coming from God, but you would have to acknowledge that to have a balanced view of the universe with God in it. Of course we humans will always get blamed when bad things happen. This is why Christians always say that if it’s good thank God, if it’s bad, it’s your fault.

  • 8. Heather  |  June 29, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    **I knew this, but it so prevalent in the thinking that all the evil comes from humans and all the good comes from God.**

    Yup. Someone once said that it’s like convincing people that they’re sick, and then saying that only you have the cure. Humans are capable of both great good and great evil, and yet fundamentalism says that all our good works are like dirty rags to God. If God sees everything in that light, what’s the appeal?

  • 9. mysteryofiniquity  |  June 29, 2007 at 3:55 pm

    Heather,

    And if God sees everything in that light…what’s the point?

  • 10. Heather  |  June 29, 2007 at 4:34 pm

    Moi,

    I have no idea. And that’s what I don’t understand about Calvinism. They’re very on fire for God, love God, look forward to God displaying his glory … and yet that display involves a lot of negativity and destruction. It involves most of the world being damned, most of the suffering orchastrated by God, and yet that’s a good thing. With that viewpoint, why bother fighting for justice? Why bother fighting for anything that’s wrong? It just seems very self-absorbed, and making it all about the person, and a very dark outlook on life. Plus, I have no idea how that viewpoint can define good and evil or even know that God is good.

  • 11. karen  |  June 29, 2007 at 7:53 pm

    I always found it rather amusing that Calvinists always think that THEY are “the elect” and most everyone else is going to hell.

    Real compassionate viewpoint, huh? (sarcasm)

  • 12. Heather  |  June 29, 2007 at 8:36 pm

    Karen,

    ** always found it rather amusing that Calvinists always think that THEY are “the elect” and most everyone else is going to hell. ** Yes. There’s never someone who goes around proclaiming that they are non-elect, so what happens is that the ‘elect’ end up looking superior. I also have a hard time seeing the humility in that position, because it’s saying that the grand, infinite creator of the universe (of which the earth is just a spec, and people even smaller specs) somehow cares about you above all else. That’s arrogance, to me. Oh, and only the elect understand the matters of salvation. That just smacks of convenience.

    Does this mean, though, that Universalists are Calvinists, but in reverse? I’d kind of say no, because Calvinists say it’s this life, and then heaven/hell and you have no choice. Universalists do go along with the choice, they just believe that God’s love is stronger than anything and everyone will choose God in the end.

  • 13. agnosticatheist  |  June 30, 2007 at 2:00 am

    Heather,

    Of course, it also makes God an entity that I’d want nothing to do with, as why create all those people just to torture them?

    If you are one of the predestined ones, you’ll get over your issues and fall right in line :)

    aA

  • 14. agnosticatheist  |  June 30, 2007 at 2:05 am

    Slapdash,

    Oh, by the way, I’ve started thinking that maybe God just isn’t omnipotent. That would solve a lot of problems, particularly those of suffering. Then it’s not that cold, heartless God just won’t step in because he sooooo values our free will, it’s that God literally can’t prevent or stop the bad stuff that happens in the world.

    This is one of the many possibilities. However, this “God” would not be the God of Judaism, Christianity, & Islam and would make those religions null & void – the same way believing there is no God does.

    aA

  • 15. Heather  |  June 30, 2007 at 1:27 pm

    aA,

    I think we can all be safely assured that if I am one of the presdestined ones, it certainly hasn’t kicked in yet. :)

  • 16. Dan Barnett  |  July 1, 2007 at 10:14 pm

    It’s been awhile, but this topic is really intriguing to me. I am a Calvinist. I found this out a few months ago as I examined my beliefs and realized where they fit. First, let me say that the TULIP points were never the original outline of Calvins beliefs. Arminius went after some aspects of Calvin’s beliefs that he didn’t like and drafted his Arminianism, so Calvin argued these popints with what we have today as the five points of Calvinism. ANyway, that sounds boring, but this also goes with what some do to the Christian faith. They disagree with it and find specific points to attack(which is fine. To each his own.). What this does is make Christianity a faith of defenses.
    There is no actual free will. Here we go right? This will be the most quoted sentence in any responses to my comment I’m sure. :-)
    Here’s the difference on how many of you understand these aspects of Christianity and how I do. You will look at Calvinism and see that God is so unfair to elect some for salvation and others for destruction. I look at it and say what is unfair is that any of us ae chosen at all. God created everything in perfection. Man screwed it up. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God doesn’t will any to perish but all to have eternal life. The bottom line in all of this is what is the purpose of it. God designed for things to happen against his own “desires” in order that He would be more glorified through it. I know many of you don’t accept this, and will call me a nut job for it. But listen. I can only share this truth with you. The filter you read it through will determine how you take it. I see God as Holy, Righteous, and Just. When I see Him for all he has done and how holy he is, I see how unclean and how much of a loser I am, but for him to choose me shows his great mercy. I hope I haven’t rambled.

  • 17. Dan Barnett  |  July 1, 2007 at 10:20 pm

    Sorry, I forgot to agree with the post that Calvinism is the best explanation for things, because Calvinism is right. :-)

  • 18. Thinking Ape  |  July 2, 2007 at 2:33 am

    Dan Barnett: “I look at it and say what is unfair is that any of us ae chosen at all. God created everything in perfection. Man screwed it up.”

    Somehow, for some reason, this gives me no comfort. I’m sorry Dan, but your worldview has me condemned before I even have a chance. “Man” did not screw it up – “a” man screwed it up, and now we must bind ourselves under the yoke of a god that, according to calvinists, would see most of his own creation burn in hell. Lovely. How do people sleep at night?

  • 19. The de-Convert  |  July 2, 2007 at 2:45 am

    Sorry, I forgot to agree with the post that Calvinism is the best explanation for things, because Calvinism is right.

    Dan,

    I think you first have to believe that the Bible is right and that the God of the Bible exist in order to say that Calvinism is right. If you do not believe the Bible to be the Word of God and that the God of the Bible exists, then Calvinism being right is still wrong since it would be based on false premises :)

    Paul

  • 20. Dan Barnett  |  July 2, 2007 at 5:05 am

    Paul, sorry that was assumed in my comment. You’re right about that.

    TA, ” your worldview has me condemned before I even have a chance. “Man” did not screw it up – “a” man screwed it up’

    This is what the Bible teaches. The sinful natue was passed on through the seed of “a” man. So yes we are dead in our sins from birth. I do believe that God makes provisions for children who do not yet understand, according to what’s said when David loses his baby. But the fact is that the Bible teaches this. The choice is to accept or reject it. Unless God opens our eyes, we are blind to what the truth is. I understand how it seems to bring no comfort. Many of you have found reason to completely wipe out any chance of this being truth. I on the othe hand have seen the opposite. I see how it works together as is taugh in scripture.

  • 21. Heather  |  July 2, 2007 at 10:01 am

    ** I do believe that God makes provisions for children who do not yet understand, according to what’s said when David loses his baby. But the fact is that the Bible teaches this.**

    The biggest drawback I would see to calling this truth is that it’s only been truth since about the 16th century or so? Or whenever Calvinism was first developed. More than anything, that speaks to it being a man-made truth, to me. That, and it re-interprets a few Bible verses, but all branches of Christianity seem to do that.

    And it’s not a choice to accept or reject. The only way you accepted it is because “God opened your eyes,” which eliminates the choice aspect.

  • 22. Thinking Ape  |  July 2, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    “I understand how it seems to bring no comfort. Many of you have found reason to completely wipe out any chance of this being truth.”

    Yes, but most of us have probably not rejected this truth based on discomfort. For myself, it came down to the lack of any “fruit of the spirit” that was to be found in Christians combined with the unreasonable assertion that Scripture is first, infallible, and second, god-breathed.

    So when someone argues that “this is what the Bible teaches,” that is really all it is saying – thats what the Bible says. I don’t doubt that. I know what the Bible teaches. It teaches a lot. Of course, I find it interesting that this death from birth finds root in Jewish scripture, yet is completely a Pauline invention. Tangent. My point is, one has to give good reason to believe WHY the Scripture = Truth. If we can establish that, I will poke out my left eye and cut off my right hand, sell everything I own, and start condemning the gossips and homosexuals… and the ladies that wear jewelry and braids in church.

  • 23. Noogatiger  |  July 2, 2007 at 3:07 pm

    Dan, you are not a Calvinist!
    You said God created everything in perfection and that man messed it up.
    Ah, excuse me there Dan, but if God created everything in perfection, how could man screw it up, how? Wouldn’t man also be perfect? Wouldn’t having choices to mess something up indicate free will? Wouldn’t in fact sin itself be perfect also, because God created that too you know? Sin did not pre-exist with God did it?

    So if you are a true Calvinist Dan, you know that God created everything, good and evil, perfect and imperfect. He decides who he is going to take to heaven, by his rules, and who is going to go to hell, again by his rules, nothing else. We humans didn’t mess anything up, we are just playing out God’s little plan. We aren’t going to hell because we screwed up, we are going to hell because we are fulfilling God’s plan and he just decided to send some of us there, plain and simple. He could elect everyone if he wanted to, now couldn’t he? Of course he could they are his rules.

    The dilemma: Is something evil or sin because God just decided on a whim one day that he didn’t like it, or is something evil and a sin because of some pre-existing law which was around before God even came around? If it is the later we could figure it out ourselves without God. If it is the former, then we are just at the mercy and whims of whatever he decides anyway. We are either screwed or saved and there is nothing we can do about it……that’s Calvinism.

  • 24. Dan Barnett  |  July 2, 2007 at 5:56 pm

    Heather, yes Calvinism is man-made, but based on scripture. I agree with the post that is the best explanation since it’s the right one.

    TA, yeah I know that most have rejected it based on other factors othe than discomfort. I didn’t mean to make that assumption.

    TA, I’m not as schooled on apologetics as I hope to be some day. My reason for accepting it as truth is that it has proven itself many times over in my own life.
    1. Left Eye, Right Hand: This is Jesus teaching to get rid of whatever it is in your life that is causing you to sin.
    2. Condemnation: We are nowhere in scripture instructed to condemn gossips, homosexuals, prostitutes, murderers, robbers, braid wearers, etc. We are taught to love these people as Jesus loved them. These are the people he hung out with in order to show himself to them. It was the power-hungry Jewish leaders and others like them that condemned them. So, of needing to do this or ct off anything is what’s holding you back. Come back! (kidding with you. I know it isn’t.)
    3. Fruit being absent in Christians, and inerrancy: Christians are instructed to live righteously. Unfortunately we don’t, at least as we should. When you look at imperfect Christians to see God, although it should work that way, Christians fail, and you’ll never see a true image of Christ.The Bible is inerrant in its original text. Many times we assume inerrancy refers to the modern-day translations we have. I believe they are extremely close to the original, but are not perfect.

    Noogtiger:
    I guess I failed to explain it correctly. But, yes I am. When we talk about free will. We think about choices. On the surface, we do make choices, as did Adam and Eve. We make choices every second of the day. Free will is deeper than a physical choice made on the surface. Going deeper, there is no true free will, because God holds every choice in his hand. He directs every action and choice. He orchestrates everything to bring you to the choice you will make. Are you a de-convert? Did you at once believe with all your heart that Christ died and rose for your sins? Did you at one point trust completely in him for your salvation? Then you are a child of God! This whole Pentecostal, Assembly. 4-square teaching that you can lose or forfeit your salvation is completely unbiblical and makes Jesus a liar, when he said, “My father who is greater than all has given them to me and noone can snatch them out of my hand.” I’m not going to argue with whether you are a christian or not, because that would go absolutely nowhere.

    Again though, I agree with the point of the post that this is the best explanation, because I believe it is the right one based on scripture. I don’t think it misinterprets scripture. Look at Ephesians 1. It’s as clear as day there. According to scripture, this is the truth.

  • 25. Dan Barnett  |  July 2, 2007 at 5:58 pm

    Sorry, I misread the name, Noogatiger.

  • 26. Heather  |  July 2, 2007 at 6:45 pm

    Dan,

    **Calvinism is man-made, but based on scripture.** This just comes across as a contradiction to me. Anything man-made is based on something else, yes. But it’s a particular interpretation of how one reads the Bible. I agree that it accounts for a lot of problems given an all-powerful, all-loving God. But it also ignores a few other Biblical passages.

    **The Bible is inerrant in its original text.** I don’t believe we have any of the original texts in completion. We only have copies.

    **My reason for accepting it as truth is that it has proven itself many times over in my own life.** But this leaves no objective standard on which to verify the truth. Catholics could say the same on their theology, and Muslims could say the same on theirs.

    **When you look at imperfect Christians to see God, although it should work that way, Christians fail, and you’ll never see a true image of Christ.** But that’s just it to many on this board. We should be able to do just that, consistently, as the Bible flat-out claims. We should be able to determine the effects of God on the lives of others, as the Bible claims. If we are holding the Bible up to the claims it makes in order to verify it’s truth, what would be the logical course if those claims don’t pan out?

  • 27. Dan Barnett  |  July 2, 2007 at 7:24 pm

    I know that’s the issue with many on this board. It’s too bad that the church has failed in this area. The logical course is to ask God to reveal himself to you. I know that sounds all Christiany, but if someone Really wants to find truth whether it is the Bible or not, then they should be Completely open and expecting an outcome. If the outcome doesn’t happen after a true desie to know, then I don’t know what to tell you. If I could have your permission and the others on this board, I would like to pray for you continuously that you would find what the truth is.

  • 28. Heather  |  July 2, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Dan,

    **If the outcome doesn’t happen after a true desie to know, then I don’t know what to tell you. If I could have your permission and the others on this board, I would like to pray for you continuously that you would find what the truth is.**

    I wanted to thank you for saying both of these. Now, you may believe that those who say they haven’t found the truth simply hven’t searched that hard, or don’t like the answer — but at least you are acknowledging what others have said. You listened. :)

    And also thank you for asking if you could pray, rather than telling us all you’d pray. You have mine.

    Truly, both do say much about your character.

  • 29. dehvknull  |  July 3, 2007 at 7:23 am

    @heather: The problem is that we don’t know! Christianity is obviously just mythology, but we really only know what “God” isn’t, not what “God” is. For all we know, “God” could be absolutely anything.

  • 30. alvin matias  |  July 5, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    You said “It was such a struggle for me to reconcile the God who caused disasters and ignored starving children but since those people were created for those purposes, it saves God from being unjust and unkind. ”

    As I read this statement, I remember a post in another wordpress site that could clear this accusation to a loving God.

    As the saying says “The world has enough for man’s need but not enough for man’s greed.” But to you, starvation of the people is directed to God, but not to man. If God created a beautiful river, but the man polluted it, would you rather curse those people who have caused it rather that direct your blame to God? Is it logical? Yes it is. A little amount of thinking would make you choke on your post.

    But anyway this is the post I was telling entitled Feeding the Spiritually Starving People with God’s Word from the Bible…

    http://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/20/feeding-the-spiritually-starving-people-with-god%e2%80%99s-word-from-the-bible/

    It has a precise answer on your reckless accusations..

  • 31. HeIsSailing  |  July 5, 2007 at 11:40 pm

    alvin,
    I read the article. I especially liked this quote:

    “The richest man on earth, or even the second richest man, if he acts in compliance with God’s commandment can alleviate the sufferings of all poor people on earth!”

    Cool. So now we can blame the greed of Bill Gates or even Warren Buffett for the world’s poverty! Personally, I think there is a clear distinction with human induced suffering, so the whole argument is a little silly. But if you think that these two men, even combined, can illiminate world’s poverty, you are crazy.

  • 32. alvin matias  |  July 8, 2007 at 7:45 pm

    HelsSailing says:

    But if you think that these two men, even combined, can illiminate world’s poverty, you are crazy.

    The answer is quite sound in the first glance, but you are pulling tricks on us. The article says:

    “The richest man on earth, or even the second richest man, if he acts in compliance with God’s commandment can alleviate the sufferings of all poor people on earth!”

    Alleviate not illiminate (as you spell it) Alleviate means

    lessen something: to make something such as pain or hardship more bearable or less severe

    Microsoft® Encarta® 2007. © 1993-2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

    But you are deceiving us by telling us that those rich people can eliminate.. You are putting words in the author’s mouth that he did not say. (www.esoriano.wordpress.com)

    and hey, in the Bible, satan is the deceiver

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Don’t be like satan…

  • 33. Thinking Ape  |  July 9, 2007 at 12:42 am

    “and hey, in the Bible, satan is the deceiver”

    1 Kings 22:23
    “Now consequently, look, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you. ”

    Ezekial 14:9
    “And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.”

    2 Thess 2:11
    “And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: ”

    Don’t be like god…

  • 34. The de-Convert  |  July 9, 2007 at 12:52 am

    :) I’ll have to add those to the list for my Bible blog:

    http://literalbible.blogspot.com/search/label/God%20and%20evil

    Paul

  • 35. alvin matias  |  July 9, 2007 at 4:16 pm

    Non Thinking Ape cited:

    1 Kings 22:23
    “Now consequently, look, Jehovah has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and Jehovah has spoken evil concerning you. ”

    Ezekiel 14:9
    “And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, Jehovah, have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.”

    There were no clear explanations, only verses that seems correct at first glance…

    Yet, who is Jehovah? Is he the God mention in the Bible?

    According to the book of the JW or Jehovah’s witnesses

    “While inclining to view the pronounciation “Yah-weh” as the more correct way, we have retained the form “Jehovah” because of people’s familiarity with it since the 14th century.”

    According to them, the form Jehovah was only used in the 14th century. If you will let me defend the verse you cited. First, learn the history of the word you are using. Because I won’t defend the word Jehovah because it doesn’t conform with the real gospel.

    Then you cited:

    2 Thess 2:11
    “And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: ”

    Be aware that you are using the verse that start with the word AND. Let us take a peek, with what APE blatantly disregard in his citation…

    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    because they received not the love of the truth…

    These people don’t have any will to be corrected, or I might guess these people are atheist in a sense…

    and in 11

    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    God will give you the dose of your own medicine. You don’t want the truth, then believe a lie (like atheist do). You want to know the truth then God will show you. What verse can I support with what I say?

    Revelation 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    See?

    Don’t think like an ape. It is very shameful for you brother…

    visit this site and learn more…

    http://www.esoriano.wordpress.com

  • 36. Thinking Ape  |  July 9, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    Your ad hominems are quaint, but if you feel that you are deserving of an intelligent conversation I would recommend that you exclude them.

    You obviously have no sense of humour, for as anyone with any sense of humour could tell I was not making a legitimate argument, but rather replying to your own humourous example of Satan as deceiver.

    Also, if you would like to engage in a debate, I need to know whether you consider yourself an orthodox (non-heretical) Christian or not. The two OT examples were references to the god of the Israelites in the tradition of the desert-wandering Hebrews. If you deny that this is the same god which Christians consider part of the holy trinity, then we have a very different theological issue – one that really doesn’t matter to me. If you have a problem with the ASV, then that really is not my problem – insert whatever translation for YHWH you would like.

    Come to think of it, it appears this was your issue. I copy and pasted passages from the ASV and you decided not to defend it based on a version that you don’t agree with. Granted, I believe that the usage of Jehovah is inaccurate, but don’t be silly – look up the verses in your own preferred Bible.

    As for the context of the Thessalonian correspondance, you can quote the passages before and after, it simply does not matter. 2 Thess 2:10 simply states WHY god sent such a deceiving spirit, 2 Thess 2:11 says THAT he did.

    Again, I will continue to say this. If you want to use Biblical passages as a basis for belief or, more importantly on this site, as a basis of argument, you must give a reason for your presupposition that the Bible is worth quoting.

  • 37. alvin matias  |  July 10, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    The Ape says:

    “but rather replying to your own humourous example of Satan as deceiver.”

    It was not intended to be a humour. Sorry.

    The Ape says:

    Also, if you would like to engage in a debate, I need to know whether you consider yourself an orthodox (non-heretical) Christian or not.

    To you? A debate? Are you in a rush? Are you going somewhere? Huuhh I’m scared, my legs are shaking. The noisiest can are the cans with nothing in it. Don’t showoff in a very early time. I just accidentally browse the site and commented in it. There is a time for everything

    Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    But don’t lose hope, We(christians) maybe your worst nightmare. It is an obligation of a christian to defend his faith when needed and in the proper venue. Even Apostle Paul looks straight in the eye of the one filled with evil spirit and said

    Act 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

    10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    The verse is very pure and exact. You can even associate something on it. THOU ATHEIST, thou child of the devil, Thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou (ape) not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

    And the APE says:

    If you deny that this is the same god which Christians consider part of the holy trinity,

    OOoops…

    Trinity is not a christian belief and not based on the bible. It is no biblico amigo. Trinity was only taught by the Catholic in later centuries after the Bible was written..

    (People see this link and let ape choke on his banana)

    Learn first what you are saying, Learning God’s will and teaching is not as easy as eating a banana and admiring Darwin.

    I’m sorry. I need to establish to you the basics of faith first. Good luck bro.

    http://www.esoriano.wordpress.com (you can see me there I am always there commenting)

  • 38. Thinking Ape  |  July 10, 2007 at 7:47 pm

    Alvin says, “”To you? A debate? Are you in a rush? Are you going somewhere? Huuhh I’m scared, my legs are shaking.”

    One, your maturity astounds me. Two, How does anything I said imply I was in a rush? Three, there are basic ground rules for civilized discourse – calling someone names generally isn’t one of them.

    “Trinity is not a christian belief and not based on the bible. ”

    Yes, the trinitarian doctrine is a CHRISTIAN doctrine. No, it is not found in the Bible. What are you trying to say exactly? That you are not a trinitarian Christian? Hey, me neither! The troubling fact is that you are in small company if you aren’t. But again, this really has nothing to do with what I said.

    Your post seems somewhat silly as you did not really answer anything I said. You appear not to be able to read past one sentence at a time.

    “I’m sorry. I need to establish to you the basics of faith first. ”

    Right. Can you define faith for me?

    “[www.wasteofmytime.com] you can see me there I am always there commenting)”

    Why would I follow you around? You are wholly incapable of following a line of reasoning nor do you really care what anyone but yourself has to say.

  • 39. Chito  |  July 10, 2007 at 11:51 pm

    To Mr. Ape:

    Mr. alvin answered you with many verses in his post Mr. Ape, you are just ignoring his clear answers.

  • 40. alvin matias  |  July 10, 2007 at 11:55 pm

    Wow! It seems like you missed me. I just posted a few minutes ago, eat some food then your reply was like a speeding bullet. Are you a 24/7 Bible basher?

    you said:

    there are basic ground rules for civilized discourse – calling someone names generally isn’t one of them.

    I wasn’t really aiming to call you names when I called you APE, it was your nick in this blog. And I thought you were an Ape admirer from the very beginning and a loyal disciple of a man named Darwin. So I’ll stick with it because it is your nick right?

    Ok, Ape says:

    Yes, the trinitarian doctrine is a CHRISTIAN doctrine. No, it is not found in the Bible. What are you trying to say exactly? That you are not a trinitarian Christian?

    ok let me analyze what you said…

    “Yes, the trinitarian doctrine is a CHRISTIAN doctrine”

    then…

    “No, it is not found in the Bible.”

    Ok let me repeat what you said..

    “Yes, the trinitarian doctrine is a CHRISTIAN doctrine” then “No, it is not found in the Bible.”

    Ok now I see it, you are not just rushing for a debate, but for your own shame too. Christian based their belief on what the Bible says then you say some statement that trinity is a Doctrina Cristiana and not found in the Bible at the same time?

    Ape said:

    What are you trying to say exactly? That you are not a trinitarian Christian?

    Yes of course I am not. That is an illogical and impertinent question. Why would I disprove trinity if I am a trinitarian?

    And you followed it with this:

    “The troubling fact is that you are in small company if you aren’t.”

    What? Is there any trouble with that? Or are you pushing me to believe on what you perceive is biblical from the very beginning. And maybe because you have realized that it was indeed a catholic teaching (The Faith of Our Fathers by James Cardinal Gibbons) as I have posted in a link and I will post it again for other reader’s convenience.

    Now, you just give me such an obligation. Not only will I establish to you the basics of faith, but the basics of logic and common sense. Sorry I need to start from ABC.. As you ask:

    “Can you define faith for me?”

    Ok. I will with God’s help. But please open your mind. It’s never too late to admit that there is a God. I’m really sorry if you have been offended but as it is written, the word of God is a two-edged sword:

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    Until then bro.

    http://www.esoriano.wordpress.com (you can see me there I am always there commenting)

  • 41. Thinking Ape  |  July 11, 2007 at 2:42 am

    “I wasn’t really aiming to call you names when I called you APE, it was your nick in this blog. And I thought you were an Ape admirer from the very beginning and a loyal disciple of a man named Darwin.”

    No. Assumptions – ass. u. me…

    “Non Thinking Ape cited:”

    “Don’t think like an ape. It is very shameful for you brother…”

    “THOU ATHEIST” (Not really an insult, but its not true).

    “Christian based their belief on what the Bible says then you say some statement that trinity is a Doctrina Cristiana and not found in the Bible at the same time?”

    Yes, you read me fine and no these are not contradictory statements. There are things found in the Bible. There are things not found in the Bible that many Christians believe. As you may know, the Trinity doctrine IS NOT FOUND in the Bible, but it is BASED on the Bible. IS that really so hard to understand?

    “Yes of course I am not. That is an illogical and impertinent question. Why would I disprove trinity if I am a trinitarian?…What? Is there any trouble with that? Or are you pushing me to believe on what you perceive is biblical from the very beginning.”

    Umm… okay. So we both believe the same thing here? Why are we arguing about the Trinity? I stated it was troubling only because it is not orthodox – not because it is untrue. I’m not pushing any belief on you, its just simply has been the orthodox doctrine of Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, and Anabaptists – perhaps maybe not unitarians, arians, or christadelphians, but like i said, a minority.

    “Ok. I will with God’s help. But please open your mind. It’s never too late to admit that there is a God. ”

    Okay, the random verses are cute, but can answer the question. I was a fundamentalist for the majority of my life, so can we seriously cut the belittlement crap and stop being an ass.

  • 42. Chito  |  July 11, 2007 at 5:01 am

    Mr. Ape,

    As you said:
    “Okay, the random verses are cute, but can answer the question. I was a fundamentalist for the majority of my life, so can we seriously cut the belittlement crap and stop being an ass.”

    You are confused yourself Mr. Ape…
    Try to understand. Why do you exist? What is your purpose in life? Do you exist to eat, work and sleep? Think again Mr. Ape…

  • 43. Thinking Ape  |  July 11, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    Chito, non sequitor. How am I confused?

    Am I confused because I don’t follow your brand of religion? Hmmm… Even if I do only exist to live (which entails a whole lot more than eating, sleeping, and working), there is no inherent argument that this is not the case. If my life really has no purpose, this is not an argument for god.

    But are you actually asking me those questions or were they meant to be rhetorical?

  • 44. alvin matias  |  July 11, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    Ape says:

    There are things not found in the Bible that many Christians believe. As you may know, the Trinity doctrine IS NOT FOUND in the Bible, but it is BASED on the Bible. IS that really so hard to understand?..

    Not that I don’t understand, but it is no biblico to tell that there are things not found in the Bible that Christians believe. Unbiblical and untrue. If you are a christian you should purely based your belief regarding faith on what the Bible says. What verse?

    1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

    That ye(Ape) might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written(Biblia). Not to think above that which is written. No one has the right to teach anyone regarding faith if it is not written in the Bible. Even angels

    GALATIANS 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

    Even angels, have no right to teach anything against the Bible, even the writers themselves don’t have any right to teach other than what they have preached. Even Apostle Paul.

    Much more with the Catholics, Protestant, Anglicans, Anabaptists. Much more that they don’t have any right. So Trinity is not taught in the Bible nor would you need to add it.

    And by the way, don’t use the word orthodox, non-orthodox, fundamentalist, and trinity as a defense. Those are not written in the Bible and assuming that it is while it is not make an ass.u.me. No Assumptions amigo. We are restricted by the Bible.

    Until then Bro. May God enlighten your way.

    http://www.esoriano.wordpress.com (you can see me there I am always there commenting)

  • 45. The Meaning of Life: Part I of II « de-conversion  |  August 16, 2007 at 1:52 pm

    [...] power: the meaninglessness of life. Amongst the fury of passionate arguments in the responses to one of The de-Convert’s posts, one commenter (#42) randomly proclaimed, “You are confused yourself Mr. Ape… Try to [...]

  • 46. Melanie Stephan  |  January 12, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    This is one small piece of proof that God talked to me:

    Like I said earlier, the Holy Spirit talked to me, besides his message about First is Last and Last is First, he had something to say about “Who Killed JFK”. Christ tells me that the man who shot JFK is a policeman. He also tells me the name of the shooter, but it is in a jumbled word. The word is “Fritters”. I see the name F. Ritter right off so I think that is the name of the killer. Now God has lots of other messages for me to figure out, so I put “who Killed JFK” on the back burner for over a year. A year or more later , just recently, I have more time to look for F. Ritter. I can’t find a policeman with that name who lived in Dallas, Texas in 1963. So I am searching for information about who killed JFK and there is a picture of a policeman by the name of J D Tippit. Now Tippit kind of looks like Ritter. Now I unjumble the letters of Ritter to get TIRRET. Now TIRRET looks more like TIPPIT. Now I make the R’s stand at attention, I get TIPPET. One problem is that the I and the E are not the same. So I do some research on the family name TIPPIT. Turns out that in the late 1800’s JD Tippit’s grandfather changed their name from Tippett to Tippit. So the next step I change the E to I. So Tippet is now Tippit.
    Now I have FS Tippit and JD Tippit. The first two initials are not the same. Next I go to Wikipedia there I find; “Some thought that J D stood for “Jefferson Davis” however JD does not stand for anything”. That means his name is just J D. So the initials F S , do not stand for anything. I just have two initials that do not stand for anything. Are you following me?

    Next what does “FRITTERS” mean. If your following my thinking here, God is going to tell you what happened to JD Tippit after he was shot. Fritters are a dough that is deep fried. Bread also means body, like in the last super Christ takes the bread and says this is my body. Look in the dictionary, PIT means HELL. TIP means money paid, gratuity. There are other meanings to. These meanings tell a story.

    JD Tippits body (dough) is placed in the deep fryer (lake of fire). Now I think this clue (Fritters) was ingenius. After all God came up with it. I think he does have a sense of humor too. Kids now have a new game to play. They can play God. Pillsbury dough boy fry’s in the lake of fire. You get HELL! fry baby fry!

    If you think this is just crazy. Remember I am just the messenger. Jesus is the one that had to talk about JFK. So he had a reason for doing that. Only God knows who the killer is. This is proof that Christ talked to me and that is the reason he told me “Who killed JFK”. It is proof. I had forgotten about the case years ago. This is a cold case now, it been 45 years since the shooting.

    I also read the part about giving false prophesy. God says false prophets go to Hell or something like that. I only repeat what God told me. Now what I wrote above is from God. He told me who killed JFK in 2006. The above is not a lie or a joke and I am going to HEAVEN without fear.

    Before I forget. Gods messeges usually have more than one meaning. F S could also stand for “Fence Shooter”.

    Who are the co-conspirators? Turns out that there are two policemen named Tippit, and one Tippett working in the Dallas police Department that same year(1963). Back to the clue word Fritters. That is plural, you know about plural. We have two fritters. The co-conspirators name is Gayle M. Tippit.

    Now the Dallas Police Department obviously covered up and framed Oswald. He was the Patsy. They did it cause it is very possible that one of the other police officers rushing to the scene saw Tippet fleeing the scene carrying a rifle. They covered it up because of the embarrassment of one of their own was the man that killed JFK? And the Warren commission must have also figured that out so they stuck with the Dallas Dept. story saying that it was Oswald. It could have been a National embarrassment. Now if you look at the evidence like I did. It is easy to see that the DAllas Police Dept tampered with the evidence over and over again. And they did a very bad job of it too.

    Now this is my opinion, not Gods. I think God is behind the creation of the Internet. I could never have been able to figure out a lot of his messages without the use of the Internet. People on the Net have been a big help to me. God talks to other people too, they just don’t know it. God let me know it was him.

    Now I just made solving the case of “Who shot JFK?”, look easy. I also gave you proof here. Did you see it? You ask where’s the proof. The proof is that it is impossible for anyone to repeat what I just did above. I mean try it. And I do that over and over again in all of God’s messages.
    See if you can make up a word that is a fried food (like fritters). Unjumble the letters to reveal the name of the killer (Tippit). Then divide the word Tippit into words that describe what happened. Tip- means that JD Tippit was paid for the job and the presidency was over turned. Pit – means that he went to Hell for what he did. Pit means the worst Hell.

    See if you can prove me wrong. Show me how easy it is to make up a name like “Fritters” that solves the crime. This clue is ingenious. God came up with the name “FRITTERS”. God is a genius, not me. I am only the messenger.

    Then the two remaining letters F. S. stands for Fence Shooter. It’s INGENIUS!

    Then on top of that it just so happens that there are two Tippit’s working in the Dallas Police Department in 1963. Fritters (plural) means we have more than one Fritter going in the deep fryer . The other shooter is Gayle M. Tippit. He goes to Hell too. Now I did some research on Gayle M Tippit. There is very little information on him unlike JD Tippit. In my search I found two Gayle Tippit’s still in Dallas. One died in 1967 and the other is married and still lives in Texas. So the other conspirator could still be alive and has managed to avoid detection.

    This is where it gets intesting. Does Gayle M. Tippit come forward and ask God to forgive him? I think he also has to ask the American people to forgive him for his part in the murder of the president or he gets the worst Hell just like JD did. God told me that waiting until the 11th hour is too late. God is forgiving, but you can’t wait until your on your death bed to ask to be forgiven.

    Now if Gayle M. Tippit wants to save himself from the deep fryer. (This could be a long fry, not a quick dip.) He has to come forward and ask to be forgiven. He still gets death or Hell but it won’t be the worst Hell. Just like the worst death is being crucified.

    Gods Messenger, Melanie

  • 47. orDover  |  January 12, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    Wow! I mean….I’m absolutely dumbfound. This deserves to be preserved in the annals of inane thinking forever and ever.

  • 48. BigHouse  |  January 12, 2009 at 10:47 pm

    Melanie has one act that she replays periodically here. She also is semmingly running low on meds again..

  • 49. Jeffrey  |  January 12, 2009 at 11:03 pm

    Wow… It’s really sad when I think someone is so crazy that it’s got to be parody … and then I decide it’s not parody …

  • 50. orDover  |  January 12, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    I was wondering if this was the same Melanie…

  • 51. orDover  |  January 12, 2009 at 11:45 pm

    I just did a quick search back to her other postings. Obviously I stopped reading her drivel, so I ignored this on the go-around a few months ago. Does this constitute spamming yet?

  • 52. Jeffrey  |  January 13, 2009 at 3:03 am

    >Does this constitute spamming yet?

    One of the factors leading to my deconversion was the fact that as a moderate Christian, I had to share discussion board space with people who were … uh … less moderate. So for shamelessly partisan reasons, I’m all for letting stuff like this through – for a while at least.

  • 53. Melanie Stephan  |  January 16, 2009 at 8:44 pm

    The meaning of First is Last and Last is First is this:
    In the morning I go to Heaven.
    In the afternoon I live my life.
    In the evening I die, death.

    What does this mean? It means that Birth is Last and Birth is First.

    Gods Messenger, Melanie

  • 54. Yurka  |  January 17, 2009 at 11:51 am

    When atheists go insane they put on tinfoil hats and obsess about government conspiracy theories or aliens.

    You can’t use anecdotal evidence like this (if indeed it is not a parody) to disprove a world view.

    Just a friendly warning.

  • 55. Blue  |  April 26, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    I like this article. Understanding calvinism is what started me wavering from the Christian faith.

  • 56. Melanie Stephan  |  November 25, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    There is nothing better than a good conspiracy theory that has been solved. Now you can check this out for your selves. Google a picture of the badge man then compare it to a picture of JD Tippit. The hair line is exactly the same. We all have different hair lines. Tippits hair line is not like most people.

    If you don’t know who the badge man is he is the man in the back ground at the wall. The picture was taken the very instant JFK was shot. The picture was blown up to see details in the background. You can see the blast flash of the gun fire. And you can see the badge on his shirt. Now a lot of other people have already come to the conclusion that Tippit was the killer. So if I said God told me that Tippit was the killer wouldn’t have been proof that the other messages were from God. Others have already come to that conclusion. This is not new news.

    God came up with a very clever clue word. The clue word is “Fritters”.

    Who’s Calvin anyway?

  • 57. Melanie Stephan  |  November 25, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    God says that the Church is built on a foundation of fiction. Even though Richard Dawkins is an Athiest, God is very fond of Richard. God says the Richard is going to Heaven.

  • 58. Melanie Stephan  |  November 25, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    I quess I already told you about the meaning of ‘First is Last and Last is First’. That message came in the Spring of 2006.

    The next year, 2007, God had another message. This is what God said word for word:
    ‘We each die in sucession, then we are born of the same day.”

    Note God said that your life is one day long in his 2006 message. One day has not yet passed. We are all still in the same day. Also God uses the word ‘We”, that means a group of people, not just me or you.

  • 59. Melanie Stephan  |  November 25, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    Oh, I made a mistake. This is the correct message.

    “We each die in sucession, then we are born on the same day.”

    Sorry that was a typo. See that is how the word of God gets changed. Some one makes a typo.

    The disciples wrote in Hebrew, not Greek. Now who wrote in Greek? That’s right kids, the Romans did. So who really wrote the NT? That’s right kids, Constantine wrote the NT.

  • 60. Blue  |  November 25, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    So I take it you haven’t started those meds yet have you Melanie? They’ll really help with the voices.

  • 61. Melanie Stephan  |  November 25, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    I forgot about the word TIRRET in solving who killed JFK? Before I started solving anything God tells me that everything has meaning right down to the very last detail. Now I see the word tirret is very close to the word turret. They also sound the same. Now I go back and research if there was a turret anywhere at Daly Plaza. Turns out there is a turret in the parking lot right behind the book depository. The guys name is Bill something, he was in the turret. I can’t remember his last name now but I think it was Bill Bouls. Turns out that Bill saw and heard everything from his high up position. He even saw the killer drive in and park. Bill also testifies that he heard 3 shots that came from the front of the book depository. Shortly after Bills testamony he is driven off the road by another car and dies. The witness is murdered.

  • 62. Roy  |  November 25, 2009 at 11:55 pm

    You been dropping acid Melanie?

  • 63. Melanie Stephan  |  November 26, 2009 at 12:18 pm

    Hi Roy,

    No, I haven’t been dropping acid lately. I was wrong about the name of the man in the TURRET behind the School Depository. His name is Lee E. Bowers, not Bill. I looked it up this morning. You can find his testimony on the web by googling his name. ‘Lee Bowers Testimony’.

    When I went looking for a tirret at Daly Plaza it wasn’t hard to find. I think it came up right away when I Googled pictures of Daly Plaza. Just about anything your interested in is on the web. Some one was interested enough about the case in ‘Who shot JFK’ that they took the time to take a picture of the Tower and posted it on the Internet. Just about all of the research that I did in trying to figure out the clues God was giving me came up right away. It was like God had other people doing work for him in putting information of the Internet. The other people that were doing work for him had no idea that God was behind it. They probably thought it was their idea.

    Another thing about JD TIPPIT. I also found a site that did some geneology on his family history. The story starts with a twin great-great grandfather. Money was squandered and most all of the children died for some unknown cause. I suspect that the great grandfather spent all the money on himself. The kids were a burden and he killed them. The family split into two lines, the ‘Good Tippetts’ and the ‘Damned Tippits’. I also have some information that says that JD was damned at birth. God hates the Tippit’s. Not only is JD damned but so is his seed and his grandparents. God hates the Tippit seed. Now I didn’t think that was right of God, but if you really want to punish some one, punish their children first. I think that’s worse than taking the punishment yourself. I don’t know how the Tippit’s can undo the curse. I think a start would be to confess like E. Howard Hunt did on his death bed. I think Howard may have saved himself and his son from damnation. One of the shooters is still alive and so is his son. Something to think about for the one surviving shooter.

    Melanie on a Mission.

  • 64. Blue  |  November 26, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    So Melanie is madness fun? Do you get pretty lights and sounds to go along with the delusions?

  • 65. Melanie Stephan  |  November 26, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    Hi Blue,
    When I saw you weigh in my first thought was I bet he has something negative to say. Sure enough I was right.

    You think this is madness because it is delusional for God to talk to anyone. The way I deal with God talking to me is that it is no big deal, it’s just Dad. Now if God knocked on your door you would probably go mad. I have found a way to deal with it.

    You probably think God is all mighty and powerful. Turns out God himself does not know how life began. He just has a box that works for him. Just like you have a box that works for you. See it is no big deal that God is talking to me cause God doesn’t know everything. Just like you don’t.

    Have a Happy Thanksgiving.
    Melanie on a Mission

  • 66. Ubi Dubium  |  November 26, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Melanie has been here before, and still seems to be off her medication. She seems locked in her own world, and uninterested in ours.

  • 67. Melanie Stephan  |  November 26, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Hi Ubi,
    That’s not true, I read what everyone else had to say. I didn’t come here to convert anyone. You can believe in God or not believe, God does not care. Like I said Richard Dawkins, the atheist goes to Heaven, kicking and screaming all the way. Then there are people like Jerry Falwell, TV evangelist, that does not go to Heaven. Just believing in God does not necessarily get you into Heaven either.

    I have heard all the insults too like your on drugs, what are you smoking, sandwich short of a picnic, fundi, crazy, get medical help, Ha Ha Ha I am laughing at you, da da da da da. I went to one site where there was a whole group of people that hated anyone who talked about God. They all had an insult to add to a long list for me to read. I think the title of the blog was Fundies say the darndest things. When I started out blogging I had no idea what a fundi or a fundamentalist was. I still don’t know what a fundi is?

    So you can see there aren’t any rewards for going on line saying that God had a conversation with you. There were a few sites however where I was welcomed. Some people even opened an entire page just for me. I think there are only 3 of those. I would say that at least 90% were negative where people just said something like get medical help. Then the Christian sites were the worst, they just politily deleted everything I wrote, like I was a false prophet. The truth is just about every religion has a false prophet. Then the Roman Catholic Church is really a newly revised pagan religion. At first I was surprised that so many people had mean things to say to me. Now I just don’t care. I will continue to tell people about First is Last and Last is First whether they understand it or not. There just might be a few that get it then it is worth my time. And it is not about me getting through to you. It is about God got his message out and I helped him get it to you.

    This is God’s big issue. You have issues and God has issues. Gods simple message is that you have yet to be born. Now I think there are lots of people that wonder if there is anything after death. God is telling you that there is. There is Life after Death. That is God’s big message. Now he really drilled me on this so I understand it better than anyone.

    Melanie

  • 68. Ubi Dubium  |  November 26, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Melanie,

    You are making long posts about god on a blog specifically for supporting those who have realized that religion is rubbish. Not all de-converts become atheists, but many of us are. This analogy has been used before, but you sound like a liquor salesman at an alcoholics anonymous meeting.

    We don’t want to hear about your supreme being, or prophets, or conspiracy theories. We want to help each other get over the religion addiction, and figure out how to deal with a world where many of our friends and family are still addicted. And talk about reality, which is much more awe-inpiring than any human-invented deity could ever be.

    You will make no converts here to whatever it is you are trying to preach.

  • 69. Melanie Stephan  |  November 26, 2009 at 8:11 pm

    Hi Ubi,

    I didn’t come here to convert or change anyones views. I would like to be one of the group here and join in the conversation. I like reading what everyone has to say and yes I like to share my thoughts too. If I am not welcome, I will leave.

    Melanie

  • 70. BigHouse  |  November 26, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    Melanie, YOU are welcome, but a lot of your posting is quite frankly, not. Particularly, at least for me, your repetitive re-hashing of a supposed private conversation you had with a dubious god over a supposed conspiracy 40 years ago. It serves no purpose but to drag the conversation way way down.

    On that note, Happy Thanksgiving, all!

  • 71. Melanie Stephan  |  November 27, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Thank you for the Welcome BigHouse. I am not going to talk about JFK anymore. I think I said everything I had to say anyway. I have to think about buying computer equipment today. I really hate having to do this but I have been putting it off for months now. It has gotten to the point that I am having nightmares about it. So I have to get it done. Today is Black Friday so I have to do it now.

    One thing that the Church does to people is that they will throw you out for disagreeing with the doctrine. Now I cann’t go into a Church cause I know I’m going to be Excommunicated before I get one foot in the door. Now I disagree with just about everybody on everything. There might be a handfull of people that see things like I do. Now I can see other peoples point of views here. Like no longer being accepted for not sharing the same faith.

    Do I get tossed out if I disagree with someone else’s point of view?

  • 72. Ubi Dubium  |  November 27, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    Disagree all you like. You’re unhappy with your church because they tell you what to think. You are in the right place as long as you are not trying to convert anybody.

  • 73. Melanie Stephan  |  November 28, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    Ubi, I will try not to disagree to much, at least I will do it in a respectful way since I am a guest here.

    Yesturday I bought my new Hp printer. I bought an HP, because I am a loyal customer and I trust HP. My old printer finally gave out and I have been going without the use of a printer for months. The young man at the store was very helpful. He told me that there was one left. I got the last one for $90 off. I was worried about after spending lots of money setting it up that it might not work. He assured me that it would work after I set it up. So I trusted him. This is why I have put off buying a new printer, fear it that it might not work, after having to read all of the set up instructions. I waited until today to set it up. I didn’t want to do it right after I bought it. I just hate setting up new equipment.

    As I opened the box I memorized how everything was packed in case I had to return it to the store. I even thought of opening the bottom of the box so it would look like the box had never been opened when I took it back. I followed the instructions carefully. When I got to the point where it says plug in the USB cable I did that. Then it said make sure that the printer is off first. It was too late. the cable was in and the printer was on. Farther done It said the the printer could be damaged. I paniced, fear, I did something wrong. Anyway I got to the finish and it printed a test page. Joy! It printed a lot faster than my old printer, and this one was so much cheaper. I am just amazed at how computers work. HP is my computer God. I don’t understand how computers work but they do. I love my computer. I can get on it and find anything that interests me. Then there is the software. Software is like the intelligence(brain) for my computer body. I see Bill Gates as the software God. There are two parts to my computer, the hardware (body) and the software (the brains). They both work together well even though they were both made in two different places.

    Anyway even though I had to go through a lot of fear about getting a new printer I am happy with my new one. I feel OK now about throwing away my old printer. I loved my old printer . It had so many features that I enjoyed, it was like an old friend. I just hope I get lots of years out of my new one. I am no longer afraid of getting new equipment and throwing away the old. My new one is so much better.

    Sorry for being off the subject again. Melanie

  • 74. Blue  |  November 28, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    Wow, that was inane, off topic and incredibly boring. I’m starting to think Melanie’s a poe, a prankster or missing out on some incredibly strong meds.

  • 75. Melanie Stephan  |  November 28, 2009 at 7:59 pm

    Blue, That was a good story I wrote. I thought this was a support group for those that have been disappointed with the Church. I have a lot of complaints with the Church.

    Your statement’s isn’t very supportive.
    Melanie’s a poe, a prankster or missing out on some incredibly strong meds.

    Blue, Why don’t you plug your UBS cable in your rear end and see if your printer still works. We call that a remote connection in the field of electronics. I heard it can also repair software on your head.

    Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean there isn’t a Hell for mean people. Now I think there are other members of the group here who are intelligent and worth talking to. Maybe your the one that doesn’t belong in the group.

  • 76. Blue  |  November 28, 2009 at 8:23 pm

    Yawn. A crazy person says what?

    By all means keep posting Melanie. You make me and everyone else smile. Insanity can be cute and amusing, and you just keep churning it out.

  • 77. Melanie  |  November 28, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    Blue,

    I found an excellent artical on Evolution and Ethics and this is exactly how you think, Blue.

    “In the absence of God, everything is allowed.”
    What that means is that whatever you choose to do is right; “… you can never choose evil.

    Ethics generally is viewed as the system or code by which attitudes and actions are determined to be either right or wrong. But the truth of the matter is that if evolution is correct, and there is no God, man exists in an environment where “anything goes.”

    Jean Paul Sartre, wrote:

    Everything is indeed permitted if God does not exist, and man is in consequence forlorn, for he cannot find anything to depend upon either within or outside himself…. Nor, on the other hand, if God does not exist, are we provided with any values or commands that could legitimize our behavior.

    Agnostic philosopher Bertrand Russell observed:
    These men are correct about one thing. If evolution is true and there is no God, “anything goes” is the name of the game. Thus, it is impossible to formulate a system of ethics by which one objectively can differentiate “right” from “wrong.”

    What all that means Blue is that you don’t have any ethics and it stands out in your comments. There are other people on this blog that are educated and have made excellent comments. I also agree with their views on the Bible. It was written by man.

  • 78. Melanie  |  November 29, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Blue,
    In the few sentences you wrote tells even more about you. You wrote:
    You make me and everyone else smile.

    That sounds like you and everyone else in he group are laughing at me. That sounds like bullying to me. Now what is gang bullying?

    “Gang bullying is a serial bully with colleagues. Gangs can occur anywhere, but flourish in corporate bullying climates. If the bully is an extrovert, they are likely to be leading from the front; they may also be a shouter and screamer, and thus easily identifiable (and recordable on tape and video-able). If the bully is an introvert, that person will be in the background initiating the mayhem but probably not taking an active part, and may thus be harder to identify. A common tactic of this type of bully is to tell everybody a different story – usually about what others are alleged to have said about that person – and encourage each person to think they are the only one with the correct story. Introvert bullies are the most dangerous bullies.
    Half the people in the gang are happy for the opportunity to behave badly, they gain gratification from the feeling of power and control, and enjoy the patronage, protection and reward from the serial bully. The other half of the gang are coerced into joining in, usually through fear of being the next target if they don’t. If anything backfires, one of these coercees will be the scapegoat and sacrificial lamb on whom enraged targets will be encouraged to vent their anger. The serial bully watches from a safe distance. Serial bullies gain a great deal of gratification from encouraging and watching others engage in conflict, especially those who might otherwise pool negative information about them.
    Gang bullying or group bullying is often called mobbing and usually involves scapegoating and victimisation.”

    Now I grabbed that information from bullying in the work place. I can also go to a site about high school bullies if that is more appropriate Blue. Blue, you also wrote, “and you just keep churning it out”. That sentence tells me your age. My quess is High School or just out of School. Not that there is anything wrong with being young.

    Now I want to be a member of the group too, but I don’t want sit with the bullies in order to fit in. I also don’t want to sit with the group that says the everything in the Bible is the word of God, because God being all mighty would have prevented anyone from tinkering or tampering with the Holy Word of God.

    Melanie

    Remember I was given the go ahead to argue. Blue started it.

  • 79. Blue  |  November 29, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Pop psychology, hokey religions and conspiracy theories? Melanie you are the gift that keeps on giving.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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