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	<title>Comments on: God&#8217;s Secret Handshake</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: HeIsSailing</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-7139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HeIsSailing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 00:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-7139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the link Thomas!  According to the London Baptist Confession of 1689, I am eternally doomed.  Thanks for the information!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link Thomas!  According to the London Baptist Confession of 1689, I am eternally doomed.  Thanks for the information!!</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-7137</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 22:46:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-7137</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no salvation whatsoever outside of the catholic faith. This means if you deny the trinity you are not a believer. Read this post http://baptistsolascriptura.wordpress.com/tag/trinity/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no salvation whatsoever outside of the catholic faith. This means if you deny the trinity you are not a believer. Read this post <a href="http://baptistsolascriptura.wordpress.com/tag/trinity/" rel="nofollow">http://baptistsolascriptura.wordpress.com/tag/trinity/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-6765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-6765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I would have just heard from people like you 50 years ago I would have blown my own brains out. You are without a doubt the most unqualified person to be making the statements that you do. You must love listening to your own words. I have been a Christian longer then you are old. I have found none of the problems that you seem to think are there. I bet you believe man descended from apes? That is the most stupid piece of drivel that has been ever foisted on man kind. Did not happen and could not have happened.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I would have just heard from people like you 50 years ago I would have blown my own brains out. You are without a doubt the most unqualified person to be making the statements that you do. You must love listening to your own words. I have been a Christian longer then you are old. I have found none of the problems that you seem to think are there. I bet you believe man descended from apes? That is the most stupid piece of drivel that has been ever foisted on man kind. Did not happen and could not have happened.</p>
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		<title>By: God’s Secret Handshake « de-conversion &#171; Jon&#8217;s Post-Church Journey</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-5855</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[God’s Secret Handshake « de-conversion &#171; Jon&#8217;s Post-Church Journey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-5855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Here it is right here: God’s Secret Handshake « de-conversion [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here it is right here: God’s Secret Handshake « de-conversion [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4597</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4597</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know it is wikipedia, but here is a great start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah

The references at the bottom seem to be legit, and should provide a foundation for further specifics and research.

I have a criminal justice background myself, so I am pretty familiar with Loftus&#039; work.  The key difference, and why this may not be so applicable, is that there were multiple people (hundreds even) who memorized the same material at the same time.  Having multiple people to link up to and be accountable to in remembering helped them keep it straight.

This process started as early as 5, and at 10 the best of those children would go on to more challenging material.  At 15, the process would be repeated, and the best of them would be accepted as Temple priests.

That is a good start, but I will see about doing some more digging too.  I have a jewish friend who has educated me on most of this, and he will know more than I.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know it is wikipedia, but here is a great start:<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_Torah</a></p>
<p>The references at the bottom seem to be legit, and should provide a foundation for further specifics and research.</p>
<p>I have a criminal justice background myself, so I am pretty familiar with Loftus&#8217; work.  The key difference, and why this may not be so applicable, is that there were multiple people (hundreds even) who memorized the same material at the same time.  Having multiple people to link up to and be accountable to in remembering helped them keep it straight.</p>
<p>This process started as early as 5, and at 10 the best of those children would go on to more challenging material.  At 15, the process would be repeated, and the best of them would be accepted as Temple priests.</p>
<p>That is a good start, but I will see about doing some more digging too.  I have a jewish friend who has educated me on most of this, and he will know more than I.</p>
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		<title>By: Slapdash</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4574</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Slapdash]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 03:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4574</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brad, I would appreciate specific references when you get the chance. I wrote a blog entry recently about oral tradition and the &quot;malleability of memory&quot;. UC-Irvine psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has done a lot of writing on the fallibility of our memory - she&#039;s especially interested in legal applications and the (un)reliability of eye witness testimony. It made me wonder about how accurate the gospels are, if they hung out there in &quot;oral tradition&quot; space for decades before being committed to writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, I would appreciate specific references when you get the chance. I wrote a blog entry recently about oral tradition and the &#8220;malleability of memory&#8221;. UC-Irvine psychologist Elizabeth Loftus has done a lot of writing on the fallibility of our memory &#8211; she&#8217;s especially interested in legal applications and the (un)reliability of eye witness testimony. It made me wonder about how accurate the gospels are, if they hung out there in &#8220;oral tradition&#8221; space for decades before being committed to writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4562</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4562</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I will have to find a specific citation for you (no time now, but remind me and I will), but it is a logical conclusion from the Hebrew tradition.

1.) Before the OT was written, it was passed down and memorized word for word.  This is why it is often lyrical and rythmic, it aids in memorization.

2.) Even after it was written, the time and tediousness of making copies by hand meant that it was more practical to memorize rather than pay the high cost of having one made.

3.) Since the first Christians were Jews, it just made sense that it would continue in this way.  Today it is easy to see the distinction between the two (for many cultural reasons), but the lines barely existed back then.

Again, I cannot remember off the top of my head, unfortunately, but I will try and get back to you for a specific source.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will have to find a specific citation for you (no time now, but remind me and I will), but it is a logical conclusion from the Hebrew tradition.</p>
<p>1.) Before the OT was written, it was passed down and memorized word for word.  This is why it is often lyrical and rythmic, it aids in memorization.</p>
<p>2.) Even after it was written, the time and tediousness of making copies by hand meant that it was more practical to memorize rather than pay the high cost of having one made.</p>
<p>3.) Since the first Christians were Jews, it just made sense that it would continue in this way.  Today it is easy to see the distinction between the two (for many cultural reasons), but the lines barely existed back then.</p>
<p>Again, I cannot remember off the top of my head, unfortunately, but I will try and get back to you for a specific source.</p>
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		<title>By: Slapdash</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Slapdash]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[***Not necessarily. The gospel, as has already been pointed out, was first proclaimed orally “among the nations” before it was written down. Many people were given the same message at the same time and could help keep each other accountable. The Hebrew oral tradition, in particular, helped with this, as most Jews regular memorized scripture (OT), and were practiced in recalling the exact words of evangelists like Paul.***

Could you please source this for me? I am curious about oral tradition and the role it played between the events of Jesus&#039;s life and when it all got written down.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>***Not necessarily. The gospel, as has already been pointed out, was first proclaimed orally “among the nations” before it was written down. Many people were given the same message at the same time and could help keep each other accountable. The Hebrew oral tradition, in particular, helped with this, as most Jews regular memorized scripture (OT), and were practiced in recalling the exact words of evangelists like Paul.***</p>
<p>Could you please source this for me? I am curious about oral tradition and the role it played between the events of Jesus&#8217;s life and when it all got written down.</p>
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		<title>By: HeIsSailing</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4554</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HeIsSailing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stephen sez:
“The means of salvation is perfectly clear to anyone who reads the New Testament with an open mind.”

Paul speaks of grace – but let’s get the plan of Salvation from the words of Jesus.  I am reading the words of Jesus with an open mind, and I gotta tell you, there is not much grace spoken of by Jesus in the Synoptics.  

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says that many will be turned away – with Jesus proclaiming, “I never knew you, depart from me, ye worker of iniquity”.  Iniquity is anomia – literally ‘lawlessness’.  The NKJV and NASB go ahead and translate it that way.  Jesus is saying that those who do not keep the Law, which I take to mean Torah, will be rejected by Jesus Christ.  

I have taken this simple example from Christ’s sermon on the mount, which is a saying attributed to Jesus without any context.  There it is.  It is opposed to any Pauline doctrine of Grace.  I can think of many more examples from the Synoptic Gospels, especially Matthew.  

So who is right?  Paul or Jesus?   Tell me again just how simple it is to gain a plan of salvation by reading Scripture?

Stephen:
“The only issue where you have a point is the question of faith vs. works. The early Church was much divided on what role the Law of Moses should play in the life of a Christian. But, again, this is not a threat to Christianity per se, but to a fundamentalism that must have last every wrinkle smoothed over.”

No, it is a threat.  Paul’s entire letter to the Galatians focuses on this threat to his Gospel, which apparently Peter was associated with.  Consider Gal 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Based on this, these competing Gospels sound pretty serious to me.  It seems even the earliest Christians could not agree on God’s Secret Handshake.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen sez:<br />
“The means of salvation is perfectly clear to anyone who reads the New Testament with an open mind.”</p>
<p>Paul speaks of grace – but let’s get the plan of Salvation from the words of Jesus.  I am reading the words of Jesus with an open mind, and I gotta tell you, there is not much grace spoken of by Jesus in the Synoptics.  </p>
<p>In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus says that many will be turned away – with Jesus proclaiming, “I never knew you, depart from me, ye worker of iniquity”.  Iniquity is anomia – literally ‘lawlessness’.  The NKJV and NASB go ahead and translate it that way.  Jesus is saying that those who do not keep the Law, which I take to mean Torah, will be rejected by Jesus Christ.  </p>
<p>I have taken this simple example from Christ’s sermon on the mount, which is a saying attributed to Jesus without any context.  There it is.  It is opposed to any Pauline doctrine of Grace.  I can think of many more examples from the Synoptic Gospels, especially Matthew.  </p>
<p>So who is right?  Paul or Jesus?   Tell me again just how simple it is to gain a plan of salvation by reading Scripture?</p>
<p>Stephen:<br />
“The only issue where you have a point is the question of faith vs. works. The early Church was much divided on what role the Law of Moses should play in the life of a Christian. But, again, this is not a threat to Christianity per se, but to a fundamentalism that must have last every wrinkle smoothed over.”</p>
<p>No, it is a threat.  Paul’s entire letter to the Galatians focuses on this threat to his Gospel, which apparently Peter was associated with.  Consider Gal 1:8 &#8211; But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.</p>
<p>Based on this, these competing Gospels sound pretty serious to me.  It seems even the earliest Christians could not agree on God’s Secret Handshake.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4548</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/03/gods-secret-handshake/#comment-4548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, considering that the disciples ministered in Jerusalem first, and that their &quot;scriptures&quot; that pointed to the coming of the Messiah was actually the Old Testament, I&#039;d say they were VERY familiar with it.  That is kind of the point.  Paul didn&#039;t have a monopoly on it.  :-)

Also, is widely accepted and agreed upon that James was writing to the church in Jerusalem, where he was the pastor (or elder of you want to be exact).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, considering that the disciples ministered in Jerusalem first, and that their &#8220;scriptures&#8221; that pointed to the coming of the Messiah was actually the Old Testament, I&#8217;d say they were VERY familiar with it.  That is kind of the point.  Paul didn&#8217;t have a monopoly on it.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Also, is widely accepted and agreed upon that James was writing to the church in Jerusalem, where he was the pastor (or elder of you want to be exact).</p>
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