Standing for Jesus or Demonstrating Bigotry?

July 13, 2007 at 7:39 am 39 comments

U.S. CapitolI’m sure the three individuals who protested the prayer delivered by Rajan Zed, a Hindu chaplain from Nevada, to open the Senate on July 12th thought they were “defending their faith” but in reality, they were simply letting their bigotry and intolerance show.

According to a press release from Operation Save America:

Ante Pavkovic, Kathy Pavkovic, and Kristen Sugar were all arrested in the chambers of the United States Senate as that chamber was violated by a false Hindu god. The Senate was opened with a Hindu prayer placing the false god of Hinduism on a level playing field with the One True God, Jesus Christ. This would never have been allowed by our Founding Fathers.

Their Director, Rev. Flip Benham, is quoted as saying:

“Not one Senator had the backbone to stand as our Founding Fathers stood. They stood on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! There were three in the audience with the courage to stand and proclaim, ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before me.’ They were immediately removed from the chambers, arrested, and are in jail now. God bless those who stand for Jesus as we know that He stands for them.”

- The de-Convert

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On The Edge Purity Balls promote unrealistic expectations

39 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Chris  |  July 13, 2007 at 8:36 am

    I only wish I could say that was surprising at all. *sigh* Who wants to place bets on what happens to the people arrested? How long do you think until they’re released and charges dropped? I give it a week at most.

  • 2. superhappyjen  |  July 13, 2007 at 8:40 am

    This reminds me of elementary school, when the teacher had to put some kids in the hall because they were snickering during somebody’s presentation. So childish and rude.

  • 3. Heather  |  July 13, 2007 at 11:15 am

    It’s obvious that those who protested feel that their way is the only way to God, and all other forms of worship are false. But if they truly desire to save those they were protesting at, what makes them think that behavior is the key to doing so? If anything, it’s going to make people that much more unlikely to investigate Christianity, because they wouldn’t want to be like the protesters.

    And if you want your religion respected, shouldn’t you in turn do the same for other religions? Shouldn’t your behavior, if your way is the only way, make the behavior of all others pale in comparison? (Although, this behavior kind of did, only in a negative way).

  • 4. The de-Convert  |  July 13, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    What I find interesting is that these very people would protest the formation if Islamic states in the Middle East and believe there should be democracy in those country. Yet they want to apply their own version of fundamentalism to the U.S.

    Paul

  • 5. Lyall Abbott  |  July 13, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    Since it is an election year for President, why not write in Jesus Christ or Jehovah as our on and only True and Living God as our President and leave out the Senate, the Supreme Court etc.. etc…
    and end once and for all time all false god’s and religions, no more taxes, no more IRS, no more Federal Reserve. We have to make the choice individually. We individually can make that choice only when we have the truth. We can only find the truth in God’s word the Holy Bible. True Christians are being a living Bible to be read by all. Let us learn and know, have a working knowledge of the Heavenly Kingdom of God, intelligently and realistically in principle works applied in todays world. The Kingdom of God is being established. Are you and I studying to show ourselves approved?
    All the government agencies and non government agencies mentioned above that are thought to be a part of our government are all filled to the brim with those who are controlled by the powers of darkness, and who will stop at nothing, even appearing to be Christians””, to accomplish what the Bible has foretold. We are all set up for the total collapse of the United States, and Christianity, and True freedom as found in the one and only Tue Witness, the one and only Tue God. We don’t need just a New World Order””, we need a Universal government. God’s government is Universal. We have to be willing to change to accept the love of God, to accept the Agape of God. We have to be transformed, born again, a new creation. Humanity has to be joined with Divinity. That is what it means to be like Christ to be a Christian. Truth is what will unite, as well as divide. Light/Darkness.

  • 6. Heather  |  July 13, 2007 at 1:56 pm

    And here’s another question: by false, they mean that the Hindu got does not exist. So how exactly can something be violated by an entity that doesn’t even exist?

  • 7. Heather  |  July 13, 2007 at 1:57 pm

    At least, that’s how I’d interpret false. If their God is the One True God that does exist, and truth correlates with existence, then when reversed, the Hindu God would be the false, non-existent God.

  • 8. Thinking Ape  |  July 13, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Lyall Abbott says, “[Scary stuff]”

    Help.
    When you have people like this. And people who believe the same thing, but on another side of the coin (i.e. Jihadists) – it appears only a matter of time before the majority of the world population will die. Armageddon and the end of the world is a self-fulfilling prophecy – it will only happen because people want it.

  • 9. Brad  |  July 13, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    “I’m sure these three individuals thought they were “defending the faith” but in reality, they were simply letting their bigotry and intolerance show”

    I think you said it best right there. You are dead on.

  • 10. mysteryofiniquity  |  July 13, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    Last I checked, there was no requirement that members of the House or Senate must be of the Christian faith, nor was there a clause that said all prayers must be Christian. This video reveals that either all faiths should be allowed to voice the opening prayer or an opening prayer should be dispensed with altogether. That’ll level the playing field, don’t ya’ think?

  • 11. karen  |  July 13, 2007 at 7:39 pm

    Since it is an election year for President, why not write in Jesus Christ or Jehovah as our on and only True and Living God as our President and leave out the Senate, the Supreme Court etc.. etc…
    and end once and for all time all false god’s and religions, no more taxes, no more IRS, no more Federal Reserve.

    Okay, I read this much of your post, Lyall, and I thought for sure you were joking. Please tell me this is sarcasm … (she says, unreasonably hoping for the best).

    Last I checked, there was no requirement that members of the House or Senate must be of the Christian faith, nor was there a clause that said all prayers must be Christian.

    I’ve never heard of a Christian requirement, but several states do apparently have antiquated laws still on the books saying that elected officials must believe in god. They’re not strictly enforced, but given how strongly opposed public opinion is to atheism, they’re pretty much informally enforced. :-(

  • 12. karen  |  July 13, 2007 at 7:41 pm

    At least, that’s how I’d interpret false. If their God is the One True God that does exist, and truth correlates with existence, then when reversed, the Hindu God would be the false, non-existent God.

    Heather, the churches I attended taught that other gods were actually Satan, “disguised as an angel of light” and other religions were run by demons who deceived people into believing falsehoods. So, other religions and other gods were not looked on as benign and neutral, they were looked on as direct threats to Christianity.

  • 13. Heather  |  July 13, 2007 at 8:02 pm

    Karen,

    ** the churches I attended taught that other gods were actually Satan, “disguised as an angel of light” and other religions were run by demons who deceived people into believing falsehoods. **

    Ah, yes. The ol Satan argument. :) I must say, Satan is *really* busy then.

    I think the flaw I would find in that argument is that under Christian standards, those who are under Satan’s “spell” display certain characteristics: like bad behavior, hurting others, lack of compassion and so on. But many devout Muslims and Hindus do in fact display many of the “fruits of the Spirit.” ANd yet the churches you attended said that was the result of Satan? Because the fruits of the Spirit are the the opposite of sinful behavior.

    Which then reduces everything to you can only tell who follows Christ based on belief. Except Jesus was clear that one could tell who followed him based on actions and behavior.

  • 14. karen  |  July 14, 2007 at 12:23 am

    Ah, yes. The ol Satan argument. :) I must say, Satan is *really* busy then.

    OH yes! He’s a busy, busy little fellow, continuously looking to do mischief, doncha know? :-) The operative verse here was 1 Peter 5:8:

    Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour. ;-)

    I think the flaw I would find in that argument is that under Christian standards, those who are under Satan’s “spell” display certain characteristics: like bad behavior, hurting others, lack of compassion and so on. But many devout Muslims and Hindus do in fact display many of the “fruits of the Spirit.” ANd yet the churches you attended said that was the result of Satan? Because the fruits of the Spirit are the the opposite of sinful behavior.

    Yes, that was definitely a problem with that doctrine, and it was never really satisfactorily answered. The standard explanation was that these people might be doing good works – which was fine – but they weren’t “laying up their treasure in heaven” because they weren’t saved. So any mere nice behavior they displayed here on earth was all going to burn and didn’t count in the kingdom anyway.

    It wasn’t so much an explanation as it was an arrogant dismissal and a sort of “neener-neener-you-don’t-count” response.

    But then again, a whole lot of Christians weren’t displaying much in the way of fruit of the spirit, and that didn’t get talked about either. Very selective reasoning going on, there.

  • 15. Silly Old Bear's Grins and Grumps  |  July 14, 2007 at 2:45 am

    Xtians Disgrace themselves - Again…

    “I’m sure the three individuals who protested the prayer delivered by Rajan Zed, a Hindu chaplain from Nevada, to open the Senate on July 12th thought they were “defending their faith” but in reality, they were simply letting their bigotry…

  • 16. Dan Barnett  |  July 15, 2007 at 8:18 am

    I told my wife about this video. My comment to her was that it disgusts me how people like these three push for religious freedom, but that doesn’t include anu religion but their own.

    Also, Heather, by the Hindu god, which one do you mean? They’ve created like 3 million of them.

    I believe my way to God is the only one, but if someone decides to worship false gods, what can I do? Pretty close to nothing.

  • 17. HeIsSailing  |  July 15, 2007 at 2:50 pm

    If you want to read some maddening thoughts on this same video, check out some of the comments from this politically conservative blog:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/12/video-three-arrested-after-disrupting-hindu-prayer-in-senate/

    A few choice nuggets pulled at random:

    “this is the sort of multi-culti spectacle we get under democrat leadership. Expect wiccan high priestess chants at some point if Harry Reid remains the Senate Majority Leader.”

    “A Muslim offered the opening prayer in 93. My main beef (there goes that word again) with a Hindu opening the session in prayer has to do with the idea that we were a nation founded under one God. That being the God who started with Abraham and then sent His Son to live among us to teach us first hand how to live.”

    “As for tolerance, we Christians are as tolerant as they come. We had to tolerate separation of church and state being in the constitution when it is not.”

    “As I see it, the issue really isn’t even about Hinduism, it’s about honoring false gods in the Senate chamber. Something that sets a very dangerous precedent for this nation”

    etc.. etc.. etc…
    but not to disparage them all – there are a few wise words in there:
    “Perhaps they should stop formal prayers at the Senate? What is the problem for people if they want taking a moment of silence and do what they wish with it before the Senate starts?”

  • 18. WhatWouldJeffersonDo  |  July 16, 2007 at 6:22 am

    Using our Founding Fathers to promote and/or defend religion by implying it was the foundation in the formation of this country is plain ignorance. I think the rev. needs a history lesson.

  • 19. Maestroh  |  July 21, 2007 at 6:59 pm

    Ante Pavkovic is an idiot. Check out my own blog or Light After Darkness’ website where he posts as Servetus to see a real guy in desperate need of an encounter with the biblical Jesus.

    His wife sent me an email a few days before their arrest and said that when her husband called somebody a ‘liar’ (his favorite term) who is lying that was not name-calling but the use of biblical language.

    I wrote her back and told her that using biblical language, her husband is an ass.

  • 20. Thinking Ape  |  July 22, 2007 at 12:56 am

    Dan Barnett says, “Also, Heather, by the Hindu god, which one do you mean? They’ve created like 3 million of them.”

    Dan, the “gods” of hinduism are more or less irrelevant as factual truths.When one speaks of the “one hindu god” it is usually in reference to the Brahman. Hinduism, in all practicality for scholars, is more of a henotheistic than pantheistic religious system. They didn’t “create” gods, they merely accepted the addition of tribal gods as their dharmic religion became part of the political landscape of the indian subcontinent.

  • 21. Ezra  |  August 10, 2007 at 11:39 pm

    maestroh, you ARE a liar, and a hateful little snipe as well. Your blog reveals this quite clearly, as it does that it is all about YOU and slandering others. The Biblical Jesus is nowhere to be found on your blog, forum or the spirit you write in.

  • 22. Maestroh  |  September 8, 2007 at 8:40 pm

    Dear Ezra,

    When you make an ACCUSATION against somebody, it is expected that you SUBSTANTIATE that accusation. As you have accused me of lying, can you tell me ONE place that I lied?

    A ‘hateful little snipe?’

    It is quite obvious to me that you never read the FIRST post nor the reason the ‘debate’ was posted there.

    I’d appreciate either a substantation or an apology – otherwise, you’re not exactly showing the biblical Jesus yourself, are you?

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  • 24. Kat  |  May 31, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    There is no mention of Jesus Christ in the Constitution of the United States of America. This is a common misinterpretation by Christians because they think Jesus was God. Jesus was a man of the highest consciousness possible in the human domain. There have been more people in history at this level of consciousness….Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, and recently someone who resided here in the United States. But of course zealots of any religion deny this because their ego/mind would rather fight, die or kill than to accept the Truth.

  • 25. Alban  |  May 31, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    Kat, I agree…once someone wants to differentiate genuine desire from ego identification- which isn’t easy on the surface. That desire is from the core of a human being not from Jesus knocking on the outside. The ‘feeling’ (the word rubs a lot of Christians the wrong way) is stronger than the lattice in which it seems to be meshed. It comes from deep within almost like it is foreign in nature, which is ironic if it were not tragic.

    Then looking for and finding/accepting Truth is completely enjoyable but with resistance always lurking in the shadows- parallel in some respects to outward religion. An inner journey within the outward journey of life.

    Once the help to find the inner sanctum is discovered then utilized on a daily basis, it is a no brainer, obvious as the nose on your face which is easier to see in a mirror. That is part of turning the senses within.

    For those interested, google “Basilidian Gnosis”. It gives a fascinating overview (only) of the levels of subtlety in approach to the divine. The most subtle is the hardest and that is why a living breathing master is of proficient help.

    Unfortunately we deify that person who has the gift to show, making that individual central to perceiving and knowing vs understanding that the perceiving and knowing are actually the central part. Religion cements that misunderstanding. Gotta join the exclusive club.

    As bad and inaccurate as religious history is, the core element of the value of human life is still touched however subtle or not subtle you want to get in learning. I get in conversations with skeptics and atheists that there is a driving force that compels them as well. They have in most cases put in their time to find answers and unlike the religious they do not rest on laurels. The leadership of religions hang too much on those laurels.

    Bottom line it is an individual work in progress that we are all a part of – to find and keep finding the source of inspiration in this subject matter.

    The Founding Fathers in my opinion were a healthy mix of differing views on God and in that day it wasn’t socially acceptable to publically voice opinions on atheism…certainly did not contribute to longevity. But somehow their ability to accept one another in the common theme of freedom inspired possibly the most freedom oriented country ever devised.

    Where the source of that inspiration came from is still also a work in progress and in my own experience just the tip of a discovery that shines more brightly in its subtlety to individuals who want to know more, with each passing day. And the day will come for each one in human existence when there is no more mystery. Subtlety however, continues in a way of becoming less so- like a glorious endless project.

    But do not take my word for it- I am hearsay. Find out for yourselves. And believe me on one thing- opinions will always be as diverse as we all are. That’s why working together is more about acceptance of ourselves than concession to others… which can turn into true art forum and possibly a whole new world.

  • 26. Kat  |  June 3, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    The ego/mind is inherantly the one thing that keeps us from the Realization of Allness and the Totality of Self. This realization takes place not in the mind but within the Totality of Self. The process is so ineffably simple that is is missed by the mind…..for there is no thought that can wrap itself around the Reality of Isness. Our thoughts are not even our own to claim. They come to us through consciousness (where every thought and spoken word has been recorded in eternity) in which each person karmically finds/chooses their place. Of course there are different levels of consciousness…each no better or worse than the other…it’s all an illusion…the better and worseness. These “thoughts” are then fueled by the ego’s emotionalism at any given level (of consciousness) and provide more “juice” for the ego/mind to feed off of. So you see it becomes a vicious cycle.
    Consider this….each person is truly doing their best at any given moment. This statement is true. When one realizes the very nature of humanness and that as humans we all have our place karmically and consciously, the doors for empathy open to us. In further contemplation one sees that one cannot change the world or change minds….not even our own. One can only be that which they are.
    The path to enlightenment is so straight and narrow that it is invisible to the eye/mind. One may start by simply being kind to every living thing, without exception…including oneself. When this path is adhered to with one’s heart, it starts to clear the obstacles to enlightenment and the path unfolds naturally.

  • 27. cag  |  June 5, 2013 at 12:40 am

    Kat, whose course of “enlightenment” have you bought? When I was on the farm, one of the jobs was running the manure spreader behind the tractor. You have managed to do it with a computer. Much cleaner, I admit.

  • 28. Kat  |  June 5, 2013 at 12:56 pm

    Let us take note of what a wonderful fertilizer manure is, but is it irony that it only reaches the seeds that are ready for growth?

  • 29. cag  |  June 5, 2013 at 6:57 pm

    Kat, if people swallowed manure the way you “swallow” nonsense then we would all die of pathogens.

  • 30. Kat  |  June 5, 2013 at 10:55 pm

    God bless you

  • 31. cag  |  June 6, 2013 at 12:29 am

    Kat, newsflash: there is no god. If you disagree, be the first in history to provide evidence for any god. The bible is not evidence, it is just an unproven claim with arguments so childish that only an indoctrinated individual would read more than the first 10 words and still believe that it is anything but ancient fiction.

    You do realize that your message #30 is an insult to a certain portion of the populace, yes?

  • 32. Kat  |  June 6, 2013 at 9:36 am

    The fact that you are breathing is evidence enough. Your ego is responsible for the fire you breath.

  • 33. cag  |  June 6, 2013 at 1:54 pm

    Ebola virus, smallpox virus, malaria, cancer, blindness, the list of blessings goes on and on.

    The fact that you are breathing is evidence enough.

    So you have no evidence for god, just that humans exist. Not very convincing.

  • 34. Kat  |  June 7, 2013 at 11:39 pm

    Each of us is doing the the best we can right now…unfortunately you are stellar proof of this fact.

  • 35. cag  |  June 8, 2013 at 12:27 am

    Kat, fortunately I don’t believe in silly superstitions and imaginary friends. Your god is the same as all the other over 2000 gods, the product of imagination. Belief in fairy tales may be cute in a 3 year old but rather disgusting in an adult. Read the bible thoroughly and critically, comparing everything in it to what we now know. The earth was not created before the universe.

  • 36. Alban  |  June 8, 2013 at 4:02 am

    cag, life is the only constant on this planet. Human life appeared after dinosaurs with expression entirely different from that largely carnivore population. So we as a race more affect our environment than any animal. And not just by a more developed brain. An aspect of our superiority thru decision making comes from our natural composite of the divine with essentially dust and water.(called hu-man) So our nature is connected to all other life. In the ignorant use of free will however, we created disease. More than the unsanitary processing of our meat, it is our destructive expression that sets the PATTERN for animals to kill each other and insects to be carriers of disease(with no sanitation). Throw in sitting bodies of water and there is an environment ripe for disease. But heavily influencing that is our diss-ease as the governing body here. We still shirk our responsibility to ourselves and to our planet by ignoring the potential benefits of utilizing our complete individual human composition.

    Cannot blame the divine if we are aware of only fables about it and would not blame it if we were aware of its presence in each of us. At that point blame will be n/a.

  • 37. cag  |  June 8, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    Alban, if your imaginary friend created all life, it also created all disease. Humans did not create germs or viruses. I, however, do not blame the “divine” as the divine does not exist.

    Animals were eating each other well before humans came on the scene. The biblical lies do not change reality, we are the result of evolution, not the cause. Your message is of zero value.

  • 38. Alban  |  June 8, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    Just to clarify before the piranha begin feeding…in theory only but guessing it’s not too astray, animals are affected by our energy. It’s not a question of imitation obviously. The pattern that we establish upsets what was once at least, a natural order. All species like our own bodies have to compensate when the balance gets out of whack.

    We humans set precedents by our overall position at the top of the food chain. All creatures are animated by the same energy but we are the only species that can intimately know and use that unique supreme energy. As most at this point( I think that is slowly changing) are not aware of their intimate connection, (not belief) the use of the energy tips the balance of the scale heavily toward destructiveness. Thankfully it didn’t hit bottom, but it came close.

    The pattern then that we established for this world including the animals has been negative, resulting in fear, mistrust, hate, manipulation and bloodshed. I’m not contending that wild animals will want to get chummy with us or lions won’t occasionally snipe and dine on a zebra if we as individuals can get a better handle on why someone once called us “the crown of creation”. Gradually though the intimate recognition of our sustaining energy will naturally turn the momentum of ‘being’ and that creativity, to a positive charge. Hopefully then WE will begin to restore that balance.

    Maybe one of those legendary seers captured a future camera snapshot of a lion laying down with a lamb not realizing it was just a photo op or shop. In the same vain I’m thinking about the “end of time” world Mayan calendar phenomena. Disaster outcomes however they are prophesied do not include the variable of the wise use of free will or its origin..

  • 39. Alban  |  June 8, 2013 at 1:42 pm

    ‘A day late, a dollar short’, cag…for me. Alas, that’s why I mentioned the dinosaurs. Seems like we didn’t show up until after the ice age eradicated most of those carnivores.

    There isn’t a lot that is clear and confirmed about our first appearance but by any of the propositions- the wild theory the apes (or the Yeti?) were inseminated and colonized by a superior race, we just evolved or God manifested us, the fact remains, we have either a conscious or unconscious control of our creativity.

    Choosing the former not as an ideology but as a practical and enjoyable pursuit seems priceless even to the objective observer relative to the mess we have created up to this point.

    So again, I’m ‘not feelin’ (as the youth likes to say) this dead end declaration either. Maybe those declarations should have a “to me” tag on the end.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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