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	<title>Comments on: C.S. Lewis’ Trilemma &#8211; Liar, Lunatic or Divine?</title>
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		<title>By: ubi dubium</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-62956</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ubi dubium]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 12:08:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-62956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ammara,

What are you talking about, and who is this Bill?  This thread is about C.S. Lewis.

You sound like all the other money-grubbing preachers out there.  You say you believe in a god who supposedly could poof the whole universe out of nothing, and yet this god always seems to need money.  Why does an all-powerful god who can do anything need money?  I think it&#039;s you who needs money.  What a scam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ammara,</p>
<p>What are you talking about, and who is this Bill?  This thread is about C.S. Lewis.</p>
<p>You sound like all the other money-grubbing preachers out there.  You say you believe in a god who supposedly could poof the whole universe out of nothing, and yet this god always seems to need money.  Why does an all-powerful god who can do anything need money?  I think it&#8217;s you who needs money.  What a scam.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ammara</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-62876</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ammara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 04:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-62876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill, what a great post  This is one of my favorite acntocus in the Gospels. The story of Jesus’ miracle of the loaves and fishes is a story of hope and encouragement; a story we must hear and cling to in our current world situation.  It seems like we don’t have much to offer in the face of all our problems.  We are like the disciples, facing some big problems with not very much in our hands.  But with Jesus, what we have to give will be enough.  Compared to the magnitude of the need, our gifts are indeed small, but they will be enough.  The one who made 5 loaves and 2 fish feed 5000 people will take what we offer and multiply it.  He will take what we give and make it more.  It’s easy to think that we don’t have anything to give, or what we could give is so insignificant as to not be worth bothering with. But if one little boy’s gift of bread and fish made so much difference, certainly what we have to offer can make a difference too.Really great post Brother Ian]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, what a great post  This is one of my favorite acntocus in the Gospels. The story of Jesus’ miracle of the loaves and fishes is a story of hope and encouragement; a story we must hear and cling to in our current world situation.  It seems like we don’t have much to offer in the face of all our problems.  We are like the disciples, facing some big problems with not very much in our hands.  But with Jesus, what we have to give will be enough.  Compared to the magnitude of the need, our gifts are indeed small, but they will be enough.  The one who made 5 loaves and 2 fish feed 5000 people will take what we offer and multiply it.  He will take what we give and make it more.  It’s easy to think that we don’t have anything to give, or what we could give is so insignificant as to not be worth bothering with. But if one little boy’s gift of bread and fish made so much difference, certainly what we have to offer can make a difference too.Really great post Brother Ian</p>
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		<title>By: Ubi Dubium</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50191</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ubi Dubium]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 16:20:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50191</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah, Catholic.  That gives me a little more insight as to where you are arguing from.

While the evangelicals (who are the most frequent people to appear on this board in an attenpt to &quot;save&quot; us) argue for the infallibiliy of their text, my understanding is that the Catholic Chruch&#039;s position is that they accept the imperfection of their text and so insist that the apostolic tradition must accompany it for proper understanding.  I find this position a bit more consistent, but it still does not get around the whole problem.  For Catholicism, then, the apostolic tradition must be infallible.or the whole thing still falls apart.  We still have the &quot;telephone&quot; problem.  In the absence of copies carved in stone, printing presses, or xerox machines, we are relying on each generation to correctly transmit information to the next, either orally, or by hand copying it, neither of which is very reliable.

Of course, I suppose your god could just tell the pope which interpretation is 100% correct.  But he could also just tell the pope which ancient text is the correct one.  Or hey, since we are talking about an omnipotent god here, he could just poof the original manusctipts into the Vatican Library!  That would neatly solve the whole accuracy of transmission problem.  I&#039;m not holding my breath on that one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Catholic.  That gives me a little more insight as to where you are arguing from.</p>
<p>While the evangelicals (who are the most frequent people to appear on this board in an attenpt to &#8220;save&#8221; us) argue for the infallibiliy of their text, my understanding is that the Catholic Chruch&#8217;s position is that they accept the imperfection of their text and so insist that the apostolic tradition must accompany it for proper understanding.  I find this position a bit more consistent, but it still does not get around the whole problem.  For Catholicism, then, the apostolic tradition must be infallible.or the whole thing still falls apart.  We still have the &#8220;telephone&#8221; problem.  In the absence of copies carved in stone, printing presses, or xerox machines, we are relying on each generation to correctly transmit information to the next, either orally, or by hand copying it, neither of which is very reliable.</p>
<p>Of course, I suppose your god could just tell the pope which interpretation is 100% correct.  But he could also just tell the pope which ancient text is the correct one.  Or hey, since we are talking about an omnipotent god here, he could just poof the original manusctipts into the Vatican Library!  That would neatly solve the whole accuracy of transmission problem.  I&#8217;m not holding my breath on that one.</p>
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		<title>By: Simen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 12:22:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d absolutely advice a few weeks to fully grasp the fact that theology and science aren&#039;t equally valid methods for gaining knowledge, if that&#039;s truly a foreign concept to you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d absolutely advice a few weeks to fully grasp the fact that theology and science aren&#8217;t equally valid methods for gaining knowledge, if that&#8217;s truly a foreign concept to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50189</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 07:20:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50189</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Simen,
How profound, what a well-reasoned argument.  Please give me a few weeks to reflect on your statement before we continue dialectics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Simen,<br />
How profound, what a well-reasoned argument.  Please give me a few weeks to reflect on your statement before we continue dialectics.</p>
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		<title>By: Julian</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50188</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Julian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 07:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50188</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ubi et Orbi,

Yes, copies of copies might be the case in the complete texts of the Gospels, I agree.  The originals were written on scrolls or codices of papyrus. The Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans alone would have required a scroll about four yards long. As these papyri were sent from one community to another, one could hardly expect this fragile material to come down to us.  But we do possess a number of fragments of such papyri, mostly found in Egyptian tombs, over 120 have actually come to light and new ones are not infrequently discovered.  

A comparison of these venerable fragments with later manuscripts enables us to establish a common relationship which is highly important as evidence of the solidity of the Christian texts as we have them.  About the third century it probably became customary to transfer these writings on to parchment to preserve them from destruction. Bound into volumes these parchments took on appearance something like our present books. These codices, in particular the Codex Vaticanus and the Codes Sinaiticus are the most important bases of our knowledge of the New Testament.

Let us consider the number of manuscripts involved. If we posess only one copy of a book by an author there is nothing to tell us whether the book is imperfect or incorrect.  Only by comparison with others can light be cast.  All the ancient writers are known to us through a small number of imperfect manuscripts, in the case of the New Testament, we have almost an unimaginable number of manuscripts.  
A comparison of these copies is highly instructive. It goes without saying that being made by so many different hands a number of faults have crept in, sometimes even intentional ones.  Frequently a copyist has modified the spelling, misplaced a word or added an explanation of his own, or forgotten a phrase. If these &quot;variants&quot; are added to the number of manuscripts we have a swarm of them. The number has been put as high as 250,000.  Yet, and this is the essential fact, the &quot;variants&quot; do not amount to an eighth part of the total, and the &quot;substantial variants&quot; are barely a thousandth part.

The task of the critic in establishing a definitive text was to choose among the variants those which were the oldest and most consistent. It can be confidently stated that no other text has come down to us from antiquity in such exemplary condition.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, instituted by Christ, given divine protection by the Holy Spirit, and guaranteed indefectibility regarding Orthodoxy.
Any pastor can say anything, it does not matter, there are 40,000 protestant denominations.  My point is I do not follow what some pastor says and the manuscripts we have show no evidence of significant corruption from the originals.  I believe in the integrity of the Gospels because the Church guarantees so.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ubi et Orbi,</p>
<p>Yes, copies of copies might be the case in the complete texts of the Gospels, I agree.  The originals were written on scrolls or codices of papyrus. The Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans alone would have required a scroll about four yards long. As these papyri were sent from one community to another, one could hardly expect this fragile material to come down to us.  But we do possess a number of fragments of such papyri, mostly found in Egyptian tombs, over 120 have actually come to light and new ones are not infrequently discovered.  </p>
<p>A comparison of these venerable fragments with later manuscripts enables us to establish a common relationship which is highly important as evidence of the solidity of the Christian texts as we have them.  About the third century it probably became customary to transfer these writings on to parchment to preserve them from destruction. Bound into volumes these parchments took on appearance something like our present books. These codices, in particular the Codex Vaticanus and the Codes Sinaiticus are the most important bases of our knowledge of the New Testament.</p>
<p>Let us consider the number of manuscripts involved. If we posess only one copy of a book by an author there is nothing to tell us whether the book is imperfect or incorrect.  Only by comparison with others can light be cast.  All the ancient writers are known to us through a small number of imperfect manuscripts, in the case of the New Testament, we have almost an unimaginable number of manuscripts.<br />
A comparison of these copies is highly instructive. It goes without saying that being made by so many different hands a number of faults have crept in, sometimes even intentional ones.  Frequently a copyist has modified the spelling, misplaced a word or added an explanation of his own, or forgotten a phrase. If these &#8220;variants&#8221; are added to the number of manuscripts we have a swarm of them. The number has been put as high as 250,000.  Yet, and this is the essential fact, the &#8220;variants&#8221; do not amount to an eighth part of the total, and the &#8220;substantial variants&#8221; are barely a thousandth part.</p>
<p>The task of the critic in establishing a definitive text was to choose among the variants those which were the oldest and most consistent. It can be confidently stated that no other text has come down to us from antiquity in such exemplary condition.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
I follow the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, instituted by Christ, given divine protection by the Holy Spirit, and guaranteed indefectibility regarding Orthodoxy.<br />
Any pastor can say anything, it does not matter, there are 40,000 protestant denominations.  My point is I do not follow what some pastor says and the manuscripts we have show no evidence of significant corruption from the originals.  I believe in the integrity of the Gospels because the Church guarantees so.</p>
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		<title>By: ACN</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50187</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ACN]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Oct 2010 04:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50187</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As an addendum to what Ubi said, the wonderful thing about seminaries, is that even among the most conservative, most evangelical seminarians, it is nearly impossible to find a dishonest professor of bible studies.  If your pastor went to a reputable seminary he/she WILL know about these issues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an addendum to what Ubi said, the wonderful thing about seminaries, is that even among the most conservative, most evangelical seminarians, it is nearly impossible to find a dishonest professor of bible studies.  If your pastor went to a reputable seminary he/she WILL know about these issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Ubi Dubium</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50179</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ubi Dubium]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 21:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50179</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Julian, copies of copies of copies.  Enormous numbers of differing manuscripts.  Try this link to begin actually seeing the magnitde of the dilemma: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament
You&#039;ve probably been told your book is &quot;perfect&quot;, and that there is only one authoritative text, and that text is 100% true.  That&#039;s the everyday easy version that the evangelical churches will tell you, but it&#039;s not actually the truth. You don&#039;t have to trust me on this.  Go ask your pastor.  Go ask him specifically which perfect ancient manuscript your bible is a translation of, and how old it is.  If he&#039;s studied the history of the bible at all, he ought to know that there are no surviving original manuscripts.  Ask him where the perfect original copy of &quot;Mark&quot; is kept, for example.  We don&#039;t have the original gospels or Paul&#039;s writings, we have handwritten copies of copies of copies, all of which contain different copying errors.  You don&#039;t have to believe me, just go ask some real questions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Julian, copies of copies of copies.  Enormous numbers of differing manuscripts.  Try this link to begin actually seeing the magnitde of the dilemma: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament</a><br />
You&#8217;ve probably been told your book is &#8220;perfect&#8221;, and that there is only one authoritative text, and that text is 100% true.  That&#8217;s the everyday easy version that the evangelical churches will tell you, but it&#8217;s not actually the truth. You don&#8217;t have to trust me on this.  Go ask your pastor.  Go ask him specifically which perfect ancient manuscript your bible is a translation of, and how old it is.  If he&#8217;s studied the history of the bible at all, he ought to know that there are no surviving original manuscripts.  Ask him where the perfect original copy of &#8220;Mark&#8221; is kept, for example.  We don&#8217;t have the original gospels or Paul&#8217;s writings, we have handwritten copies of copies of copies, all of which contain different copying errors.  You don&#8217;t have to believe me, just go ask some real questions.</p>
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		<title>By: Simen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50155</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 08:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50155</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you can&#039;t prove atoms theologically, that&#039;s a weakness of theology. If you can&#039;t prove God scientiically, that&#039;s a weakness of God.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you can&#8217;t prove atoms theologically, that&#8217;s a weakness of theology. If you can&#8217;t prove God scientiically, that&#8217;s a weakness of God.</p>
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		<title>By: julian</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[julian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Oct 2010 00:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/07/19/cs-lewis-trilemma-liar-lunatic-or-divine/#comment-50139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So Simen, 
Since you bring up other religions, can you please site some reasons I should consider them or why you think the evidence for them is as strong as Christianity? From my study of religions, I have not found anyone with any strong basis other than Christianity. Hinduism does not even have a founder. Buddhism does not claim divine power. Islam?, study the life of Mohammad.  Just because many religions exist does not mean that none of them are true. That is a false conclusion.  Maye none, but maybe one, what cannot be is contradictory religions being true.  Maybe those are all ways people are trying to reach God, while one of them is where God has set a path for us to follow, which Christianity claims.  Which other religions claim exclusivity? Islam  only, and the evidence for it being true is relatively weak, particularly by the life of Muhammad and the fact that his only miracle was the Quran.  

Also, I think you seem to try to answer the question of God scientifically. I remember an anecdote, forgot all the details, but it was asked if you could prove God scientifically, and the man replied if he could prove atoms theologically? They are completely different methods of analysis, both involving logic.  The scientific method cannot be used for all things, particularly God.  But look at the evidence and the most logical conclusion t what we have is the Christian interpretation of Christ.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So Simen,<br />
Since you bring up other religions, can you please site some reasons I should consider them or why you think the evidence for them is as strong as Christianity? From my study of religions, I have not found anyone with any strong basis other than Christianity. Hinduism does not even have a founder. Buddhism does not claim divine power. Islam?, study the life of Mohammad.  Just because many religions exist does not mean that none of them are true. That is a false conclusion.  Maye none, but maybe one, what cannot be is contradictory religions being true.  Maybe those are all ways people are trying to reach God, while one of them is where God has set a path for us to follow, which Christianity claims.  Which other religions claim exclusivity? Islam  only, and the evidence for it being true is relatively weak, particularly by the life of Muhammad and the fact that his only miracle was the Quran.  </p>
<p>Also, I think you seem to try to answer the question of God scientifically. I remember an anecdote, forgot all the details, but it was asked if you could prove God scientifically, and the man replied if he could prove atoms theologically? They are completely different methods of analysis, both involving logic.  The scientific method cannot be used for all things, particularly God.  But look at the evidence and the most logical conclusion t what we have is the Christian interpretation of Christ.</p>
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