Noah’s Ark – FOUND!!

September 3, 2007 at 6:31 am 67 comments

Well…. maybe…not.

From livescience.com:

Noah’s ArkHunt for Noah’s Ark Takes on New Dimension

Posted on September 2, 2007 @ 09:47:27 EDT

Author Leonard David

The hunt for evidence that a 980-foot long feature on Mt. Ararat in Turkey might be the remains of Noah’s Ark has taken on a new dimension, quite literally.

Satellite Imaging Corporation of Houston, Texas has created a 3D terrain model of the so-called “Mt. Ararat anomaly” – making use of stereo IKONOS satellite image data to create a flyover of the site in remote northeastern Turkey.

The high-tech effort involves GeoEye, INTA Space Turk, along with the talents of Satellite Imaging Corporation.

Porcher Taylor, an associate professor at the University of Richmond’s School of Continuing Studies, has been at the forefront of utilizing Earth orbiting remote sensing spacecraft to study the Ararat Anomaly from on-high. In a press statement, he explained: “To be best of my knowledge, to date, only 2D satellite missions had been flown over the anomaly, not stereo missions.”

Taylor notes that GeoEye’s IKONOS satellite serves as a “space-based Indiana Jones” over the anomaly. Furthermore, the GeoEye-1 — to be launched early next year — will make the controversial anomaly almost twice as visible due to that spacecraft’s ultra-powerful 0.4 meter resolution.

The purported anomaly lies surrounded by rugged strato-volcanic rock at the northwestern corner of Mt. Ararat’s western plateau. It sits mostly buried underneath a permanent glacier and drew attention because of its relatively smooth surface texture and unusual physical composition, according to some interpretations. The site occupied by the anomaly is located at 15,300 feet above sea level.

To take your own flyover of the site courtesy of Satellite Imaging Corporation, go to:

http://www.satimagingcorp.com/gallery/quicktime-mt-ararat-low.html

Also, check out:

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2007/9/prweb550721.htm

So has a 5000 year old barge been found atop the mountains of Ararat? Make sure to watch the digital Quicktime 3D animation of the anomalous features. Confused about what to look for? Here is some help.

Do you see an ark there? The conservative Christian folks over at HotAir, where I read the weekly Blogging the Quran series, are quick to take this as another historical verification of God’s Word! They are so far quite excited about it. I am too tired right now to make sensible replies – but I did anyway.

My opinion is that we have seen this all before. What are your opinions?

-HeIsSailing

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Is the Bible Historically Accurate? Atheist Feelings Toward Death

67 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Jim  |  September 3, 2007 at 1:52 am

    HeIsSailing!

    As a Christian, I of course find this intriguing, but am not ready to jump on the bandwagon yet and raise up the victory flag to claim that Noah’s Ark is found. I’d say a large majority of Christians would feel the same way, HotAir folks nonwithstanding. I don’t know jack crap about this imaging stuff, but it sounds like something launched early next year will give us more info than we have now.

    I’m curious to see of how this further develops.

    Thanks for posting this!

  • 2. HeIsSailing  |  September 3, 2007 at 2:00 am

    I know quite a bit about remote sensing from my work in astronomy. What I have seen of the images proves nothing one way or the other. An infrared spectral scan of that area ought to settle the question of artificiality quickly enough though. But if you clicked on my link that led to the Face on Mars article, you should remember from that that people love unexplained phenomena. I guess it is a chance for imaginations to run wild.

    I also find it quite telling that the main guy spearheading this remote sensing campaign is not a scientist, but an associate professor of paralegal studes.

  • 3. Chip  |  September 3, 2007 at 8:31 am

    I for one know that I am re-converting right now…

    Seriously, this convinced me. They found Noah’s Ark.

  • 4. Jim  |  September 3, 2007 at 10:05 am

    HeIsSailing!

    Here is the full bio of Prof. Porcher Taylor from his university.

    His lack of being a scientist doesn’t mean much one way or the other in this instance. It sounds like he has a broad background in studying satellite photos.

    This article from space.com refers to him as “an expert on satellite intelligence gathering and diplomacy.” Another article from MSNBC about this stuff notes “Taylor has been a national security analyst for more than 30 years, also serving as a senior associate for five years at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.”

    Whatever this is on the mountain could be nothing, could be something. Who knows? At the very least, this professor seems to have a background with this stuff, and isn’t some crackpot.

  • 5. Nando  |  September 3, 2007 at 11:22 am

    How could the ark get on top of a 14,000 foot mountain when the Bible says the flood was just about 400 foot?
    40 days and 40 nights…and the waters rose 10 feet a day…?
    I love the anomolous research field, but feel when there is nothing there we should move on. The images don’t look like anything to me anyway. The face on Mars was more intriguing whether or not if it was artificial.

  • 6. Alláh Fubar  |  September 3, 2007 at 11:32 am

    Until the anomaly is fully explored, it could be nothing more than a prehistoric structure on a mountain. Our ancestors built plenty of them, you know. (Mesa Verde instantly comes to mind).

    Masada is another example of mountaintop building by our ancestors.

    Obviously, the Government Bureaucracy will continue to prevent full exploration of the anomaly, at least in MY lifetime.

    Another big Hoohum from a continuing skeptic…

  • 7. Jim  |  September 3, 2007 at 11:41 am

    Nando,

    Good questions. I’m curious, where are you seeing the Bible says the flood was just about 400 feet? I checked ESV, NASB, NIV and NKJV translations of the story in Genesis. Most said something about some measurement above the tops of the mountains. Couldn’t find 400 feet.

    Help?

  • 8. American Scot  |  September 3, 2007 at 1:42 pm

    Uh…. looked like a natural formation to me.

  • 9. lovesleftovers  |  September 3, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    If there is a god he probably should have had someone in New Orleans build one, since no one else gave a crap.

  • 10. Stephen  |  September 3, 2007 at 3:22 pm

    The KJV has “fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail”. Given that the ark was 300 cubits long, this is not terribly impressive, and doesn’t tie up very well with covering mountains.

  • 11. Jim  |  September 3, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    That probably means 15 cubits upward from the tops of the mountains, since the mountains are discussed in Genesis 7:19-20. The text doesn’t indicate at all that this is measured from sea level, or from the lowest point in the valleys.

    It’s not terribly impressive by whose standards? One cubit is about 18 inches. This would indicate more than 20 feet of water.

  • 12. Stephen P  |  September 3, 2007 at 3:51 pm

    Well it’s not terribly impressive compared to the average mountain. Coupled with the previous verses it reads to me more like a total water depth of 15 cubits, but it isn’t clear.

    There could well be translation issues. Remember that this story is based on the story of Gilgamesh, which comes from the area of the lower Euphrates/Tigris, which is flat. In the equally flat Netherlands there is a geographical feature called the “Hoge Berg” (in modern Dutch this is literally “high mountain”) which is all of 15 metres above sea-level, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all if something similar has happened to the wording here.

  • 13. HeIsSailing  |  September 3, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    If the total water depth is 15 cubits, the story does not make much sense, even if you view this story as pure myth, which I do. In that sense, I think Jim is closer to the interpretation intended by the original authors of this story.

    But Stephen may be correct also, in that is a transmission error between competing mythologies. But I personally think Jim is closer to the true meaning here.

  • 14. Jim  |  September 3, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    Good points! I forgot about translation issues. The ESV or the NASB render more accurate translations of the original text than the KJV.

    ESV: “And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.”

    NASB: “The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered. The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.”

  • 15. Stephen P  |  September 3, 2007 at 4:43 pm

    Fair enough Jim, I see now that the RSV also agrees with your reading.

  • 16. Anonymous  |  September 3, 2007 at 4:59 pm

    Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

  • 17. jaredandloni  |  September 3, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    you should check out answersingenesis.com they have some really cool information on Noah’s Ark

  • 18. legoless  |  September 3, 2007 at 5:11 pm

    Wow!

  • 19. Lyndon  |  September 3, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    Why don’t we all lay out in the grass in the afternoon and play spot the anomaly with the clouds. Hey, look! It’s Jesus! and there’s the Virgin Mary! and Carrot Top?! wtf?

  • 20. Bradley R Johnson  |  September 3, 2007 at 5:48 pm

    Nando; Please read the passage in the book of Genesis again, and you’ll see that it says 15 cubits above the mountains!

    Genesis 7:19-20 reads…
    …19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole of heaven, were covered.
    …20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the MOUNTAINS were covered.

    A cubit is roughly 18 inches, so 15 x 18 = 270 feet above the mountain tops. So it’s very easy to see that Noah’s Ark could come to rest on the top of a 14,000 foot mountain.

    Where in bible do you find the 400 foot reference? I haven’t found it. The verses above are out of a King James version.

    Godspeed; through Christ our Risen Lord.

  • 21. HeIsSailing  |  September 3, 2007 at 11:27 pm

    Jim:

    Here is the full bio of Prof. Porcher Taylor from his university.

    From that bio, here are Prof Taylor’s areas of expertise: Business Ethics Lessons from National Security Policy Successes and Failures, Satellite Diplomacy, National Security Policy, Paralegal Studies. Trust me, he may be a smart guy, but none of this means he knows anything about remote sensing.

    Jim:

    His lack of being a scientist doesn’t mean much one way or the other in this instance. It sounds like he has a broad background in studying satellite photos.

    No. I see nothing in his resume that indicates any qualification in this field. His specialty is in satellite diplomacy, which has nothing to do with image analysis. Jim, I am a scientist who works closely in a related field. It is much more difficult than just looking at a picture and guessing what is there. It takes a lot of scientific education and experience to properly apply, calibrate, analyze and interpret this type of imagery. And there are lots of different kinds of imagery tools, instruments and analysis available! It is not just a matter of snapping a photo and saying, “it looks like something artificial may be down there”. There are ways to tell with more certainty that, from what I can tell from reading these articles, are not being applied. This fact alone raises my suspicion.

    The fact that he is not a scientist matters – very much!

    Jim:

    Whatever this is on the mountain could be nothing, could be something. Who knows? At the very least, this professor seems to have a background with this stuff, and isn’t some crackpot.

    He may not be a crackpot, but again, from what I have seen, he has no background except about 15 years of tenacity in a field he has no training in. Consider the following:

    1) All we have to go on is an anomalous shape on a ridge high up on Ararat. The only reason that this object is anomalous, based on the pictures I have seen, is because there is a Biblical legend of a barge up there, and there is a feature of roughly the same size or shape. Therefore Bingo! We have an anomolous feature.

    2) Some of the other commentors on this article are absolutely correct when they say the debunked “Face on Mars” from a few years ago is more intriguing than the Ararat anomoly. I mean, you really have to use your imagination to see anything in any of those photos!

    3) The article you cited is dated from 2002, and discusses photos and other data which will hopefully ‘soon be declassified’. Do you see any articles or updates more recent then this? I sure don’t, which again raises my suspicions. There is another lesson from the past. Back in the 80’s and 90’s, there were many hoaxers who claimed that the government was withholding data, photos and other information that together would give conclusive proof that the Face on Mars was an artificial structure. Whole books were published on this subject! Now it is claimed that the Ararat anomoly also contains classified data with incriminating evidence. Is this beginning to look like your classic conspiracy theory to you? It sure is to me.

    4) Consider his collegue as cited in the article. Farouk El-Baz is indeed a legend in the remote sensing, and archeological remote sensing fields. Here is his extensive bio and Curriculum Vitae:

    http://www.bu.edu/remotesensing/Faculty/El-Baz/FEBcurriculum.html

    which contains not one word of deciphering photos of an Ararat Anomoly, or working with Prof Porcher Taylor (yes, I did click on all those links and scan his giant resume). Why not? Because there is nothing up there. Take his word for it, not mine:

    “There is absolutely nothing in all the pictures that we have seen up to now that is questionable in my mind. I can explain each and everything as a natural snow bank shadow. There is nothing,” El-Baz said.

    Compare scientific resumes, and see who has more credibility in the remote sensing field.

    Sorry Jim, but my conclusion after reading as many releveant links that I could in under an hour, is that this Ararat anomaly is no different than the Face on Mars. It is all smoke and no fire, and worthy of nothing more than a couple of interviews by Art Bell.

  • 22. HeIsSailing  |  September 4, 2007 at 12:04 am

    Just to beat this dead horse some more, here is part 1 of 3 from a history channel special:

    I don’t know how old this program is, but our friend Porcher Taylor features heavily in parts 2 and 3. Lots of anectdotal evidence, and claims of classified documents. Take a good look at his existing photographic evidence. I find it wholly unconvincing.

  • 23. Jim  |  September 4, 2007 at 12:06 am

    HeIsSailing!

    Well spoken.

    The MSNBC article I cited was within the past three years or so. Interestingly enough, all these stories are written by the same guy, Leonard David. Weird.

    You have convinced me about Taylor’s creds. In re-reading the article from 2006 on http://www.space.com, I noticed that Taylor is hedging his role.

    “Taylor said his goal is straightforward: Combining this imagery to make the Ararat anomaly transparent to the public, as well as to the discerning, dispassionate eyes of scientists, imagery analysts, and other experts.

    ‘I had no preconceived notions or agendas when I began this in 1993 as to what I was looking for,’ Taylor said.”

    Given his lack of expertise in this specific field, I’m pleased to see his goal is to increase the visual on this area to have experts check it out further.

  • 24. bueller  |  September 4, 2007 at 1:14 am

    what, this is nonsense, check out the stoopid ark for real here

    www,drunkenpanda.com

  • 25. bueller  |  September 4, 2007 at 1:16 am

    http://www.drunkenpanda.com

  • 26. Jon F  |  September 4, 2007 at 6:22 am

    ESV: “And the waters prevailed so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered. The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.”

    Let me get this straight. The whole earth was covered in water, and the waters covered the highest mountain (Everest?) by 15 cubits. If that is true, I wonder how the writer of Genesis knew that? Without the aid of GPS navigation and a depth-sounder, Noah was able to position the ark (an unpowered vessel!) right over the exact spot in the vast expanse of water (196940400 square miles), drop down a rope with a weight and feel it hit the peak of Everest 15 cubits down! Astonishing! Truly astonishing.

  • 27. HeIsSailing  |  September 4, 2007 at 6:49 am

    JonF sez:

    If that is true, I wonder how the writer of Genesis knew that?

    Here is what I used to believe. When it came to third person stuff like this, where the writer acted as an omniscient storyteller, God more or less dictated the story. In this case, Moses wrote the story, with all the fine details based on the direction of God. Same goes for the creation story, Adam & Eve, etc.

    Most of the Prophetic books are that way too. Not a detail is out of place since they were speaking as direct oracles of God.

    The history books (Judges – Chronicles) are never read in church, but I guess they would have to have been directly inspired too. Except when Chronicles contradicts Kings. Then we have scribal and copyist errors.

    The Psalms, Proverbs and Poetical books were written by man, and included lots of bad theology from a passionate human perspective. That is okay though, because that bad stuff was also inspired by God to show us how *not* to think of God. Uh.. yeah, that’s the ticket.

    The trouble comes when we hit the Gospels (and Acts for that matter). For some reason, the 4 accounts of Jesus’ life always seem to be written by 4 different eyewitness, with 4 different agendas to 4 different audiences. So it is claimed that the Gospels were written as investigative reports based on heresay, not the direct revelation of God. So for instance, when all 4 Gospels contradict each other by each having a different ‘last saying’ of Jesus on the Cross, we have to remember that the Crucifixion scene was noisy and chaotic, so each author likely heard something different uttered by Jesus as he died. So the authors of the Gospels were not acting as omniscient narrators, nor as divine oracles, and could not have told you the depth of the flood waters since they were more investigative journalists. How they then knew what Jesus prayed at Gethsemane is a little confusing with that model of inspiration, but don’t bother me with the details.

    The epistles of Paul and Peter and the rest were always the odd ones out for me. It seemed that the impassioned letters of Christian theology were written, and somehow God just had them write 100% correct stuff. So when one guy, Paul, wrote about the atonement of Jesus, God made sure that his letters were correct – somehow. But the epistle writers sometimes could become omniscient oracles also. When Jude speaks about Enoch prophesying about the coming of the Lord, this must be direct revelation from God, not a quote from the pseudepigraphical book of 1st Enoch.

    So, JonF I guess to answer your question, the Bible was written as dictated or devined by God. Except where there are differing accounts of one event. Then the authors are investigative journalists. Or writing poetry. Then they are passionate human beings whose errant thinking is inerrantly used by God. Somehow. I hope that helps.

    Well, that is what I used to believe. I no longer have to justify this, nor force myself to believe obvious mythology.

  • 28. Jon F  |  September 4, 2007 at 7:07 am

    HiS,
    LOL. That’s quite a story! It has helped me to replace the word “mythology” with the word “model”. Each section of the OT and NT uses a model of man and god that is appropraite for that time in history and for that people. Having said that, “all models are wrong, some models are useful.” As for me, I have moved on to better and later models!
    Jon

  • 29. marie  |  September 4, 2007 at 12:39 pm

    I have a question too–John F gave me the idea when he wondered how the author of the Bible knew for sure this happened when there was so much water…

    Can you imagine that the ark was stuck on a mountaintop , but still at the time (presumably only like a few thousand years ago) all the animals that were on the ark (presumably representative of almost ALL species) were able to walk or fly down the mountain and disperse throughout the entire earth??

    Here is what the Bible Says in Genesis 8
    15 Then God said to Noah, 16 “Come out of the ark, you and your wife and your sons and their wives. 17 Bring out every kind of living creature that is with you—the birds, the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground—so they can multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it.”

    18 So Noah came out, together with his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives. 19 All the animals and all the creatures that move along the ground and all the birds—everything that moves on the earth—came out of the ark, one kind after another.

    I don’t get it. Do people literally believe this? How did Noah lead them all down and then in a matter of a few thousand years, they spread to all places on the earth–including the depths of the oceans and caves, etc

  • 30. Radec  |  September 4, 2007 at 1:02 pm

    Something I never understood (even when I believed the story was true) was why people think that Noah and his family would have left the Ark intact where it landed? Why waste already semi-processed lumber when rebuilding houses, smaller boats, etc. Heck, if anything there’s some firewood for you to use as you rebuild. Just a thought…
    R

  • 31. LYNN  |  September 4, 2007 at 2:07 pm

    FAITH PEOPLE—FAITH. BELIEVE IN THE LORD’S WORD AND YOU WILL LOSE ALL THESE DOUBTS AND QUESTIONS. IT’S AS EASY AS ASKING THE LORD TO HELP YOU BELIEVE. SEE HOW SIMPLE THAT WAS???

  • 32. rickl  |  September 4, 2007 at 7:59 pm

    I’ve been studying the Noah’s Ark matter intensively since 2000, and been in personal contact with people who have actually been on Ararat trying to find the Ark. There have been enough supposed eyewitness accounts from American, Armenian and Russian sources to make a scientific search on Ararat a reasonable effort. But Porcher Taylor’s “anomaly” is an unlikely candidate, as seen by comparing photos of the area taken by people at different times. The most likely place for the ark is under the ice in the upper reaches of the Araxes glacier, but the Turks won’t let anyone go there to check it out with ground-penetrating radar. Wonder why??

  • 33. rickl  |  September 4, 2007 at 8:28 pm

    A couple of comments prompted by other posts. The early world was probably one of fairly low hills and plains, along with relatively shallow seas, compared to today. There have been seashells found high on Everest, too. It’s reasonable to infer that today’s high mountains only rose to their present heights from later earth movements after the Flood (mabbul is the unique Hebrew word used in Genesis that is never used for any other kind of “ordinary” flood). So there isn’t a real problem to get all the mountains covered by water.

    As for the animals, nowhere does it say Noah led them out. Instinctive migrations happen today, why not then? I don’t see anything unreasonable with believing this. And the mountain was probably lower back then, too.

  • 34. bipolar2  |  September 4, 2007 at 8:30 pm

    Silly Rabbits,

    The building of a great ship and weathering a “universal” deluge was accomplished by Unapishtim and his family, as told in The Epic of Gilgamesh.

    The myth in the so-called sacred texts of Judaism is nothing but a corrupted understanding of far earlier Sumerian texts.

    And by the logic of faith-based pseudo-reasoning, Enki, Inanna, Utu are among the real gods. The gods of Sumer. (Inanna is a far better object of reverence than some androcentric, paternalistic, misogynist God.)

    Really, if you don’t know the great epic myths of Gilgamesh and his friend Enkidu; then, you’ll never see how derivative later religions, like Xianity and Judaism are.

    Nor will you read about a world so much healthier than the one inhabited by sin-soaked Xian puritans, slum-dwellers of the Eastern Roman Empire.

    bipolar2
    copyright asserted 2007

  • 35. Heather  |  September 4, 2007 at 8:57 pm

    I think the biggest difficulty I had with the Ark is given the size, how could every single animal (well, two pairs — or seven, I think? Depending on the version?) fit into it, if the flood was global. If the authors of the story were going on this just based on the animals they were familiar with, that would make more sense. But if this were a global flood, wiping out everything except Noah and Company, then it didn’t work for me.

    That, and there’d be the matter of feeding all the carnivores.

  • 36. epicurus  |  September 4, 2007 at 11:22 pm

    Is this guy lazy or what? 13 years and he’s never bothered to go to Mt Ararat and check for himself?

  • 37. fairbanksd  |  September 5, 2007 at 7:25 am

    Does everyone assume the mountains have always been that high to begin with? Is this why we find seashells at the tops of many ranges and hill tops.

  • 38. HeIsSailing  |  September 5, 2007 at 7:29 am

    fairbanksd:

    Is this why we find seashells at the tops of many ranges and hill tops.

    Is plate tectonics taught in school anymore?

  • 39. rickl  |  September 5, 2007 at 3:52 pm

    bipolar2,

    The Epic of Gilgamesh is a corrupted version of a more ancient original account. It features a cube-shaped ark, an obviously unseaworthy fabrication, and could never be the original. See http://www.worldwideflood.com/ark/gilgamesh/gilgamesh.htm, “Comparing the Arks of Utnapishtim and Noah.”

    That Sumerian stories gave rise to those of Judaism and Christianity is only a liberal “just-so” story for which there is not a shred of objective proof. The only thing earlier about the Sumerian texts is the surviving copies. Baked clay tablets are highly durable, compared to other means of keeping records. “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” applies here. The greatest civilization of the ancient world was not Sumer but Egypt, and it was there that Moses had access to records that have since been lost. (Interestingly, Genesis 5:1 notes that even Adam had WRITTEN records, not oral tradition.)

    As the referenced website notes, “It is popular to report Noah’s Ark as an embellished tale of a local flood, claiming it came from stories like the Epic of Gilgamesh. This assertion makes no sense, and requires the Jewish storytellers to bend the yarn into a description of a vessel designed by a modern naval architect. (Unlike Noah, the Jews were never known for their prowess as shipbuilders.)”

  • 40. rickl  |  September 5, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    Heather,

    The problem of the number of animals on the ark only exists if we are locked into thinking of what modern science calls species. Genesis, though, speaks of “kinds”, of which there are far fewer. There’s lots of varieties of dogs, from Chihuahuas to Great Danes, but a single dog kind. Going back to Noah’s day, there likely was only a single doglike representative on the ark which was the ancestor of not only today’s dogs, but wolves, foxes and the like. Same for the big cats and cattle. That REALLY cuts down the number of animals needed to a manageable number.

    As for carnivores, that dietary specialization need not have existed until inbreeding took place in isolated populations after the Flood. Since dogs (and people!) are omnivores, it is not unreasonable to think other kinds of animals used to be like this.

  • 41. Heather  |  September 5, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    Or did they all come from the same ‘kind’, and they all evolved into the different species from there?

    Not only that, but my understanding of evolutionary biology is that from the flood until now is simply not enough time to produce that variety — it goes against all evidence we currently have. And I’m sure that skeletons and such have been found of dogs and antelopes prior to when the flood was to occur, and of different varieties. So which kind would’ve been chosen?

  • 42. rickl  |  September 6, 2007 at 7:35 pm

    HelsSailing,

    Re the “modern naval architect” (not my words, BTW, but quoted): What is being pointed out is that modern engineers, in trying to design large, stable boats, came up scientifically with relative proportions of length to width that “just happen” to have been very closely approximated by ostensibly primitive Noah (or at least ancient Jewish writers, if you don’t want to believe Noah was historical).

    And yeah, anyone TODAY, including 10 year olds and coloring-book artists, can imagine such proportions because they are conditioned to think that way. Noah did not have that advantage. Why didn’t he build a cube instead, like Utnapishtim? Or an upside-down pyramid? The point: If the Bible had Noah sailing in a boat build like a Borg ship, supposedly directly derived from the Gilgamesh Epic, I’d join you in deconstructing. But he didn’t – the boat of this primitive guy reflected proportions modern engineers would agree with. Chalk it up to chance if you want, but the fact remains.

  • 43. rickl  |  September 6, 2007 at 8:41 pm

    HelsSailing,

    Re “kinds”: No one can break down the Hebrew word MIN (“kind”) into an exact analog in modern taxonomy. But we don’t need to. It’s enough to know that MIN simply designated animals that were distinct and could not interbreed from the earliest days.

    In getting hung up on dogs and jumping all over my admittedly not scientifically rigorous illustration, you overlooked a key point I made immediately afterwards – that wolves and foxes, presently distinct species, were probably part of the original “dog” MIN. If you don’t need to get several modern species of wolves, red foxes, Arctic foxes, and other examples of doggishness on board the ark, then hey, presto – you have fewer animals to deal with! Simple logic. Same for horsey sorts and elephantines. Fewer animals to put on the ark (to return to the main theme!) with much more robust genomes, which later speciated as inbreeding and adaption to post-Flood environmental niches caused original genetic information to be lost (devolution, the loss of genetic information, not the creation of new stuff). I believe in devolution, which can be scientifically demonstrated. Pasteur proved you don’t get life from nonlife, and thermodynamics proves you don’t get more complex stuff from simpler stuff; just adding scads of time to the mix is so much hand waving. People should just accept that and get on with their lives, leaving Darwin in the dustbin of history.

  • 44. epicurus  |  September 7, 2007 at 1:14 am

    It must take a lot of work to stay that ignorant.

  • 45. rickl  |  September 7, 2007 at 7:27 am

    It takes even more work to stay willfully blind, coming up with ever more complicated just-so stories to explain away the beautiful complexity of all we see around us as the mere interplay of deep time and chance. The people who, due to lifestyle, have a vested interest in there being no God, face a daunting task in coming up with intellectual justification for it, or refuse to wrestle with the issue because it is too psychologically painful. It is a shame, because the FREE gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ, as the Bible reveals. So easy to grasp, but so hard to take. Millions find that giving Jesus a chance in their life is the one thing they just cannot try, because they can’t stand to lose any control over their choices.

  • 46. Heather  |  September 7, 2007 at 11:25 am

    were probably part of the original “dog” MIN. If you don’t need to get several modern species of wolves, red foxes, Arctic foxes, and other examples of doggishness on board the ark, then hey, presto – you have fewer animals to deal with! Simple logic

    Except again — according to how the evolutionary theory works, and just based on the evidence provided, wolves and foxes and domesticated dogs all existed before the flood, and thus were seperate species before the flood. As it is, if we just take the red fox, the evidence for that shows that common ancestor of the fox family, which is “vulpes vulpes” originated in North America, and then “diverged” 9 to 11 million years ago. But 6,000 years ago, there wasn’t any common ancestor to pick from to get the grey wolf, or the red fox: each species already existed.

  • 47. HeIsSailing  |  September 7, 2007 at 7:10 pm

    rickl,
    I don’t want to drag this topic on forever and a day, so I will make my last comment on this topic here, but I will give you the last word by reading any reply you may have.

    I jumped all over your dog analogy, because it does not work. I will make it simple. You said:

    If you don’t need to get several modern species of wolves, red foxes, Arctic foxes, and other examples of doggishness on board the ark, then hey, presto – you have fewer animals to deal with! Simple logic.

    You then go on to say in the very same reply:

    People should just accept that [evolution is wrong] and get on with their lives, leaving Darwin in the dustbin of history.

    Don’t you see how one statement contradicts the other? Domestic dogs can interbreed with wolves, but not foxes. As far as I know, different species of foxes will not interbreed with each other. In order to get from one species from another, you need a common ancestor from which they evolved. If you are going to have one of each ‘kind’ aboard the ark, you need evolution to get them into the different species that we have today. That is why ‘kind’ as used by Henry Morris does not mean anything.

    rickl:

    …thermodynamics proves you don’t get more complex stuff from simpler stuff…

    With all due respect, Christian apologists who quickly proclaim that “Evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics!!” have no idea what they are talking about. I am not attacking you for saying this rickl, because I have heard this from Christian apologists over and over again, and it is just bogus. I suggest you read an encyclopedia article on what the thermodynamic laws are and what they mean.

    rickl:

    Re the “modern naval architect” (not my words, BTW, but quoted): What is being pointed out is that modern engineers, in trying to design large, stable boats, came up scientifically with relative proportions of length to width that “just happen” to have been very closely approximated by ostensibly primitive Noah

    All I am saying is that you don’t need Divine inspiration to give the description of the barge in Genesis 6. I know you quoted somebody else with the “modern naval architect” bit, because again, I have heard this from Christian apologists over and over again. It is not like there were no boats or barges around when this Genesis 6 was written! The author of this story knew what a boat looked like. All you need is a general description to get it down. He described a barge with a door! I mean seriously, big deal! The apologists who make these claims are in Erich von Daniken territory when they claim Genesis 6 could not possibly have been written without Divine Guidance. If you want real engineering mastery, try looking at the Great Pyramids of Egypt. To this day, we don’t know how those ancient peoples built those structures. The ingenuity needed to construct those things makes the description of Noah’s Ark look like a folded paper boat. Yet if the Ark was the impossible structure to build without Divine Guidance, what does that say about the pyramids? Did God engineer the construction of the Great Pyramids as well?? If not, then how do you account for the Egyptians’ engineering mastery when meanwhile Moses was such a Neanderthal he could not adequately describe a barge without Divine Inspiration? Was it actually Satan who designed the pyramids as Satanic Monuments??

    OK, that is a flippant question. But not really. I know of several quack evangelists who espouse that very thing.

    The bottom line is, the ancients may have been primitive, but they were not stupid. I think they could adequately describe a barge without the need for Divine Guidance.

  • 48. rickl  |  September 7, 2007 at 10:28 pm

    HelsSailing,

    Thank you for your courteous reply. You wrote:

    As far as I know, different species of foxes will not interbreed with each other. In order to get from one species from another, you need a common ancestor from which they evolved.

    I hold that this posited “common ancestor” (after all, we have to start somewhere!) was the MIN of Genesis. Speciation took place as geographically/environmentally isolated populations devolved after the Flood, via inbreeding and a loss of generic breadth. This kind of speciation mechanism is not classic evolution, which proposes speciation via a GAINING of diversity in the genome over time via mutations. So there is no conflict in what I wrote (Darwin in the dustbin), once you see that classic evolution is not the only path to speciation and an apparent increase in biodiversity.

    Just one more comment. Why the hangup with the whole concept of Divine guidance anyway, for Noah and his boat or whatever else?? If Jesus rose from the dead – and the evidence of history is that he did – only a God who gets involved in human affairs could have done it. I cannot explain away the Resurrection, I can only ignore it if I choose to. Frank Morrison (Who Moved the Stone?) and CS Lewis (Mere Christianity) are good reads for openmiinded folks.

  • 49. exapologist  |  September 9, 2007 at 4:58 am

    Thanks for posting this! I needed a good chuckle.

  • 50. mewho  |  September 11, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    A pervasive short-sightedness made Noah’s ark necessary. The earth’s destruction was unavoidable because of God’s disappointment with what He had made. “….the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.” Genesis 6:6
    Genesis 6:1-4 also suggests that the planet’s corruption was helped along by God’s male angels, or the “sons of God”, having intercourse with female humanity. The offspring of such becoming “the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (legend)”. Gen. 6:4.
    It is arguable to state, then, that such human suffering and anguish was the result of clumsy managerial skills. Whose fault was this calamity, when considering the bigger picture? God made a rough draft, and upon having second thoughts casually drowned children, infants, unborn fetuses and the old. Kind of like how you crumple a paper, embarassed by your own work?

    *note* God also suggests a mass slaying when the children of Isreal create a golden calf at the foot of Mt. Sinai. (Speaking to Moses) “…let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” Exodus 32:10. Laughably, Moses argues God out of his angry tirade and talks some sense into Him.

    “Not only does the God of the Bible not exist, but that God couldn’t exist.” Christopher Hitchens

  • [...] once believed God instructed Noah to build an ark to house two of each of the millions of land species and then proceeded to flood the earth, killing [...]

  • 52. Alláh Fubar  |  September 13, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    With all those animals and only a 1 Cubit Square Ventilation hole, all would have perished from not only lack of Oxygen, but from Methane poisoning as well.

  • 53. YHVH - Conqueror of the Chaos Monsters « de-conversion  |  September 18, 2007 at 7:17 pm

    [...] in many cases, the most reasonable interpretation. As I have written about several times on this blogsite, I love this mythology, but it just does not fit the orthodox Judeo-Christian view. Therefore, we [...]

  • 54. Crystal K  |  September 29, 2007 at 12:46 am

    Put it this way. I have never heard of anybody says anything about building an ark in the history except for Noah in the Bible. Have you? There are all kinds of things you have heard from the histories, but nothing about Noah’s Ark. The only place you can find is in the Bible and that’s why nobody believes it. Bible is # 1 selling book and it’s the greatest book of history of all times. Not only the Bible tells about the past, it also tells the present and the future. Mark of the beast-like computer chips in animal bodies that help scientists to locate the lost animals and all that is mentioned in the book of Revelation , the last book of the Bible. Who can predict that 2000 years ago.

  • 55. Thinking Ape  |  September 29, 2007 at 1:11 am

    Put it this way. I have never heard of anybody says anything about building an ark in the history except for Noah in the Bible. Have you?

    Yes. Many. First in my research on Noah’s Ark when I was a young evangelical and then again when I took an Ancient Near East course. Follow this link:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

  • 56. Crystal K  |  September 29, 2007 at 1:24 am

    For centuries people believed that the world was flat and it was possible to fall off the edge. Yet Isaiah wrote back around 740 B.C that the earth was round. Isiah 40:22 states ” He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth”. In Job 26:7 it said that the earth is suspended in space. Then, and for centuries after, one of the top theories concerning the earth was that our planet was flat and rested securely upon the back of a gigantic turtle who was slowly plodding through a cosmic sea of some sort. The would didnt know of the earth ‘s suspension until Sir Isaac Newton revealed the facts to the world scientists in 1687 A.D.

  • 57. Thinking Ape  |  September 29, 2007 at 2:21 am

    Crystal, it seems you have some issues with history. It is one thing to make a claim in something that you believe, it is quite another to back those claims up with “facts” that are more common for people to hear in children’s church than anywhere else.

    1) The idea that the earth was “flat” was never a “top theory.” It was shipmen’s lore from ancient Mesopotamia. The “turtle theory” was popular in Indian creation mythology.

    2) Look again at that Isaiah verse. “Circle.” How does this insinuate a spherical earth? Let us go with your original assumption that people thought the earth was flat – what shape would the earth be?

    3) The earliest historical record of evidence of the discovery that the earth was sphere remains the honour of Pythagoras in the 6th century BCE – who argued only because a sphere is the most harmonic shape. Plato mentions a spherical earth, but it is Aristotle that gives the first “proofs.” As you might know, it was Eratosthenes (3rd century BCE) that first “measured” the circumstance of the spherical earth to within 2% of its actual size.

    4) Isaac Newton’s mathematics gave the formulations for something that the ancient’s and his contemporaries already knew – it was a discovery of the laws, not the universe.

  • [...] HeIsSailing : Noah’s Ark – FOUND!! [...]

  • 59. tian  |  October 4, 2007 at 11:59 am

    Crystal, it’s clear that God’s wisdom hidden for man that assumed his/her wiser. Look at in this forum (discussion) how many man such like this.
    All the God’s word, it’s only the matter of time to prove it all that the All God’s word completely true!!!!
    If assumed i am archaeologist and astronomer and lived between 1700- 1780, and maybe about 1745 or 1750 i surely say that i am not found the noah’s ark yet or israel slavery in egypt because my foolishness (the actually there are no modern technology to prove this at that time) . And surely many man at that time will say
    that Bible is fictionous story or myth story.
    Now,!! gradually all the fact in bible exposed and revealed and prove that the story is true, but many man that want freedom from God still give their opinion to counter this fact.
    I read many physics book, or read many about their discover about central in our solar system, shape of the earth. Look at this example (What Crystal said is true !) this is the example (Read this loudly) : this is my essay :
    How a hard working to Nicolaus Copernicus and many man in ancient time to find the fact that the earth is circle and sun is central of solar system. How debate they are. But how easy now to find the fact that the earth is circle according to the Bible
    (only take a capture by NASA) lol!!!
    again i say that only matter of time to prove that what the bible say is true !!, not fictionous. i believe God, but i also believe that the fact is true. Not faith is faith , and fact is fact. Though Faith above all thngs.
    I read many books and many of them tell by my father and my mother about tale story for some people. And many of them i saw in television.
    i read cinderella, sinbad, alladdin,,casper, pocahontas,siddharta, mohammed, and kong fu tzu and many that i forget to say. initially i like this story, but after my bed time there is not my impression again. there is no power about them even about my country tale story is same.
    But when my daddy tell me the story about Elijah in the bible (old testament), this is not same stories, this story have power,
    and get my impression forever and through all new testament about central of the Bible Jesus Christ.
    i’m 25 years old and not theologian. but i’m a enginner. And my faith can not be changed forever. Ther is no book like the Bible.
    So excellent. If any man that can write like this book from genesis to revelation like this order. i surely worship him/her.
    I worship God because only He can breath such amazing book !! and give salvation through His son to me.
    And the book have power. Not like newton book. initially true, but with einstein theory became false with his relativity.all the human theory can be changed. Not eternal. To defeat his death at 70 yeras or about 80 years, max about 110 yeras old is not able.
    use your mind, science so you can live forever and not die about 70 years old or about 80 yeras old, all you foolish man.

    I believe God in Christ as the life giving Spirit to me

    tian.

  • 60. Jess  |  November 25, 2007 at 12:54 pm

    Noah’s ark is standing right there in Egypt,it’s not hidden at all,check out the REAL story surrounding it.

  • 61. wannabelieve  |  December 21, 2007 at 5:42 pm

    Looks like this thread has gone cold, but I’ll throw this one out for any of the folks that believe in the literal interpretation of the story of Noah.

    According to the story, the water covered the entire Earth. This includes Mt. Everest at over 6 miles high. Can someone explain where the water went? There isn’t close to enough ground water or atmospheric moisture to account for even a fraction of the water it would have taken to cover Mt. Everest. Please don’t give me the line that Mt. Everest was formed in the last 6000-odd years and no one happened to notice the catastrophic consequences that would have occured as a result of this, and every other mountain range, forming in such a fantastically short time period.

    OK, let’s say that by complete chance Mt. Everest did form in the last 6000 years an no one noticed. What about the mountain ranges spread across every continent on earth that have peaks over 14,000 feet. Surely no one believes that they’ve all formed over the last 6000 years with nothing being recorded in history. There isn’t enough water to cover even the 14,000 foot mountains.

    One possible explanation is that at the end of the flood year, a fleet of UFOs happened upon the Earth, were short of water, and sucked up the excess water. They probably didn’t stay because a Nitrogen/Oxygen atmosphere wouldn’t sustain their life-form.

  • 62. Mitch  |  June 6, 2008 at 5:20 pm

    Went cold because there is nothing new in the story or discoveries to change the facts as we know them. There is no proof !!!!!!!!

  • 63. william  |  June 23, 2008 at 8:04 am

    there is no proof!!

  • 64. Virginia  |  September 26, 2008 at 3:01 am

    Thank you very much.

  • 65. Julia  |  September 26, 2008 at 10:02 pm

    (*_*)

  • 66. Katie  |  October 10, 2008 at 4:06 am

    (*_*)

  • 67. Debi  |  April 15, 2009 at 8:38 am

    Hello. My grandmother started walking five miles a day when she was sixty. She’s ninety-seven now, and we don’t know where the hell she is. Help me! Could you help me find sites on the: kitchen islands. I found only this – Cheap kitchen islands ri. Find airline tickets in burley, idaho at superpages. Cheap flights and low cost airline tickets. THX ;-), Debi from Paraguay.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

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Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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