YHVH – Conqueror of the Chaos Monsters

September 18, 2007 at 6:44 pm 92 comments

The god El fighting Zu.  From an Assyrian relief ca 860 BC.The other day, while browsing some Kent Hovind videos on YouTube, I caught an interesting remark. Hovind, a notorious young earth creationist, claimed that dinosaurs lived as recently as 5000 years ago. Our legends of fire-breathing dragons come from our memories of dinosaurs, and that those dinosaurs breathed fire. Now, where did Hovind get these ideas which have no historical or scientific support? I believe it to specifically be a reference to Behemoth and Leviathan, two creatures mentioned in Job 40 and 41. Since Behemoth has biblical reference outside of this passage, I thought I would look into Leviathan, and see what the Bible says about this creature, and various ways in which it can be interpreted. Let’s look up some of the Biblical references to Leviathan. Some Bibles interpret the Leviathan of Job 41 to be a crocodile. This was the view taken by my old church when I was growing up. Ken Hovind believes this to be a dinosaur. Let’s take a look at the description of this beast as given by YHVH in Job 41:

The Lord (YHVH), in expresses his power and might to Job thusly:

“Can you draw out Levi’athan with a fishhook, or press down his tongue with a cord? Can you put a rope in his nose, or pierce his jaw with a hook? (vs 1,2)

Implying that YHVH can do these things to Leviathan, and poor mortal Job cannot. But then YHVH, in continuing in this vein says something very odd:

Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant for ever? (vs 3,4)

Again, implying that YHVH can, and poor mortal Job cannot. But does this also imply that YHVH has done this? Has YHVH subdued Leviathan and made the creature his servant forever? Either implication does not point to a dinosaur to me, much less a crocodile.

Let’s skip down to verse 9:

Behold, the hope of a man is disappointed; he is laid low even at the sight of him (Leviathan). No one is so fierce that he dares to stir him up. Who then is he that can stand before me? Who has given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine. (vs 9-11)

YHVH here expresses that everything under the whole of heaven belongs to him, that he is the mightiest of all. And he does this by expressing his dominance over Leviathan, the creature which humbles man by the mere sight of him. Would a powerful god who possesses all under heaven express his dominance by subduing a mere crocodile or dinosaur? This passage only makes sense to me if Leviathan is also a tremendous creature that would pose some kind of challenge to YHVH. Otherwise, there is really not much for YHVH to brag about.

Now we get to a physical description of Leviathan:

“I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, or his mighty strength, or his goodly frame. Who can strip off his outer garment? Who can penetrate his double coat of mail? Who can open the doors of his face? Round about his teeth is terror. His back is made of rows of shields, shut up closely as with a seal. One is so near to another that no air can come between them. They are joined one to another; they clasp each other and cannot be separated. (vs 12-17)

I double plated, armored coat of mail? Plates of armor like shields? So tightly bound that no air can pass through, joined and clasped and inseparable? This is no crocodile. What the heck is this Leviathan creature?

And now my favorite part:

His sneezings flash forth light, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the dawn. (vs 18)

Wow! When I read this, I cannot help but think of Isaiah 14:12,

How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star (Lucifer), son of Dawn!

but that reference will have to wait for another article.

Out of his mouth go flaming torches; sparks of fire leap forth. Out of his nostrils comes forth smoke, as from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His breath kindles coals, and a flame comes forth from his mouth. (vs 19-21)

There is no way in hell that this is a crocodile. Not even dinosaurs could even breath fire, but I have to give Hovind credit for at least his consistency. Based on this passage, he does claim that dinosaurs prowled the earth in the days of Job, and yes, they did indeed breathe fire. But if that is the case, how does that work scientifically? By what scientific method can any creature ignite a flame and breathe it out?

This is not science. This creature never existed. This is myth.

One of the constant themes throughout ancient mythology was the concept of the chaos god or some other destructive monster. Whether we are talking about Egyptians, the Zoroastrian god Ahura Mazda, Vedic beliefs about their young god Indra, the Scandinavian god Thor, and Ugaritic and other Semetic mythologies, a constant theme emerges in their creation myths. Each of these gods had to face a primordial world of chaos, ruled or at least inhabited by some kind of monster. The god was usually a powerful, young hero who emerged from an older pantheon of gods to challenge the monster. Sometimes, the hero battled the monster on the condition of being granted divinity, as was the case of Indra. And sometimes the world was created from the remains of the defeated monster. This theme occurs again and again, and I see hints of that theme peeking through our own Bible. Job 41 is a classic example. Leviathan is a chaos monster, and YHVH must subdue him.

What is the alternative to that ‘heretical’ view? Leviathan was some kind of earthly beast whom YHVH was proud of subduing. It is a beast that brought terror to mankind because of its dread power. It is a beast that could breathe fire. Our alternative, the only one that I can see, is that Leviathan is a fire-breathing crocodile, or we go the Kent Hovind route and claim that it was a dinosaur.

The literal description of this beast just does not work. After reading these Biblical passages as thoroughly as I can, I am convinced that they are pure myth. It just makes more sense with an honest reading of the text. It keeps with the theme of the popular creation mythos of the time. And we don’t need to invoke literal fire-breathing dragons. No, I never heard that in Sunday sermon either, but it is the only view, in my judgment that makes any sense. Read the entire chapter and tell me if I am selling this passage of Scripture short.

What else can we learn about Leviathan from Scripture? Leviathan is also present in Psalm 74, so let’s take a look and see if this mythic theme is consistent:

In praising the attributes of God (Elohim, this time), the psalmist writes:

Yet God my King is from of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy might; thou didst break the heads of the dragons on the waters. Thou didst crush the heads of Leviathan, thou didst give him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. Thou didst cleave open springs and brooks; thou didst dry up ever-flowing streams. Thine is the day, thine also the night; thou hast established the luminaries and the sun. Thou hast fixed all the bounds of the earth; thou hast made summer and winter. (vs 12-17)

What in the world is this talking about? Charles Spurgeon thought Leviathan was a big fish who was killed when Moses parted the Red Sea. He also thought the dragon was Pharaoh. Here is his interpretation in his own words:

Monsters long accustomed to the deep found themselves left high and dry. Huge things of the sea cave and the coral grot were deprived of their vital element, and left with crushed heads upon the dry channel bed. There, too, that old dragon Pharaoh was utterly broken, and Egypt herself had the head of her power and pomp broken with an almighty blow. Even thus is that old dragon broken by him who came to bruise the serpent’s head, and the sea of wrath no longer rolls before us; we pass through it dry shod. Our faith as to the present is revived by glad memories of the past.

Well, you be the judge, but just don’t think that interpretation works. The text of the psalm does not say fish. It does not say Pharaoh. It says dragons. It says Leviathan. These are monsters that the psalmist is crediting Elohim for killing, for smashing their heads upon the rocks and feeding to the carrion eaters. Elohim then creates the earth when he is done, which fits the mythic theme of the earth being created from the remains of the chaos monsters. This psalm makes perfect sense when compared to other myths of the time.

There is one more passage in Scripture that may or may not fit this theme (Isaiah 26:20-27:1), and one that does not really fit at all (Psalm 104:26). Similarly, the mythic theme of the chaos monster does appear in other places, but with different names from Leviathan (e.g. Isaiah 51:9-11). But that just goes to show that the Bible is not a consistent in its themes, and that is was written with many different ideas, mythic backgrounds and agendas. There are hints in Scripture that, I feel, show the diverse cultural background it really came from.

But I don’t think it is all like what I learned in church – that there is one God, and one consistent golden theme throughout Scripture. I think that interpreting much of Scripture through these ancient myths makes, in many cases, the most reasonable interpretation. As I have written about several times on this blogsite, I love this mythology, but it just does not fit the orthodox Judeo-Christian view. Therefore, we never hear anything from the pulpit except that which our creeds tell us what to believe. Sometimes, these alternate views just make more sense. If we are to put ourselves into the minds of the ancients when we read their words in Scripture, we cannot separate their cultures from it, and that includes their mythologies.

It is amazing what you can find in Scripture if you look outside the standard church readings. Amazing. And that is reason 42364 why I reject the notion that the Bible is the inspired and inerrant Word of God (TM).

-HeIsSailing

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Christianity vs. Christianity: Who will win? What’s a Good Reason to Reject a Belief as False?

92 Comments Add your own

  • 1. pbandj  |  September 18, 2007 at 10:05 pm

    he is sailing

    great pts all around. i think we can all agree on “dr” Hovind. just so you know, hovind was convicted of tax evasion and isnt really someone who would be considered a reliable scientific source anyway.

    but to be fair, i think a more balanced approach to the clear hyperbole used in Job is to allow for the possibility that the author was intending to refer to a dinosaur using mythic terms. either way, whether leviathan is or isnt a dinosaur isnt the point. the Bible isnt intended to be a science textbook.

    peter

  • 2. societyvs  |  September 19, 2007 at 4:31 pm

    If Hovind says dinosaur can breathe fire he has to be right – he’s Hovind after all. If Hovind believes that description is a dinosaur or dragon – he needs to rethink the whole thing – like you said – it could be myth.

  • 3. The de-Convert  |  September 19, 2007 at 10:37 pm

    Here’s a song to Hovind:

    Also Hovind and the Rational Response Squad are having a dispute. See:

    http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rational_response_squad_alerts/rational_response_squad_alerts/9978

  • 4. HeIsSailing  |  September 19, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    first off –
    pbandj, welcome back home from Iraq. I hope you’re spending lots of quality time with your family and not too much time on these dopey internet blogs ;-)

    just so you know, hovind was convicted of tax evasion and isnt really someone who would be considered a reliable scientific source anyway

    I don’t consider Hovind a reliable source of scientific information, but there is a large segment of the Christian population that holds his pseudo-scientific views. I was raised in that environment myself. My grandmother taught me that fossils were placed in rocks by the devil in order to deceive us away from God and his Word.

    Yikes. Fortunately, I never believed her.

    Yet Bibles, even today, cannot admit the mythic character of passages like these. My Thompson Chain reference Bible still describes this critter as a crocodile. So does my NIV Study Bible. Both completely ignore the armor plating, the fire breathing character. I don’t think that is being fair to the text.

    …allow for the possibility that the author was intending to refer to a dinosaur using mythic terms…

    pbandj, what does this mean? I am not sure if you think dinosaurs walked the earth with Job, or 100 million years before Job, but either way, what does a mythic as opposed to a real description of a dinosaur mean? And why would God describe an animal in such a way, as opposed to just a physical description?

    either way, whether leviathan is or isnt a dinosaur isnt the point. the Bible isnt intended to be a science textbook.

    On the contrary, I think it is the point. God spends 4 chapters in Job, putting Job in his place by enumerating his attributes and his accomplishments. In doing so, he spends the entirety of chapter 41 describing the terror of the creature Leviathan and how God defeated him.

    God spends an awful lot of space describing this creature. I think it it important who or what this creature is.

    Would you be impressed if God spent an entire chapter telling you he could defeat an animal? God almighty, creator of heaven, creator of earth, he who knows no bounds, no limits, he who in which there is infinite power, yet he spends a whole chapter trying to impress Job by telling him he can beat up a mere animal? Defeating a lousy crocodile, or dinosaur, even if fire-breathing – is just not that impressive for the infinite power that is God.

    This story just does not make sense unless it is describing a wholly mythic being, a superpower like God himself, whom God is proud to describe defeating, of crushing its head and feeding to the carrion eaters. A crocodile or dinosaur or any other critter just does not fit this passage well.

    And again, it fits the theme of a god defeating a chaos monster of some sort that was ubiquitous in this part of the world.

    Well, I can tell this kind of stuff does not generate much interest around these parts, but I find this topic fascinating. I also find it damning to any notion of the Bible as I was raised to believe it was.

  • [...] check out YHVH – Conqueror of the Chaos Monsters at [...]

  • 6. Heather  |  September 20, 2007 at 11:39 am

    HIS,

    If it helps, I find the theme of God defeating the chaos monster fascinating as well. Have you ever heard of a book called “God: the biography?” It’s by Jack Miles, and it does touch on a lot of these areas. One of the points he mentions is that in polytheistic relgions, you have gods of all sorts to fill in the requirements: the god of chaos, the god of life, the god of such-and-such. In the Hebrew tradition, since there was only one god, lots of those elements had to be jammed into one.

  • 7. karen  |  September 20, 2007 at 1:53 pm

    I’m still just stunned at the fact that I read and studied Job many, many times and never really considered what Leviathan was! Heck, I was even a Job’s Daughter (it’s a Masonic organization) and we had to memorize and recite portions of Job – and I never asked what the heck this monster was supposed to be.

    Of course, there were certain proscribed spiritual lessons we were supposed to learn from Job, and if I remember correctly, that chapter was usually glossed over big time. Besides, by the time one gets to the end of Job (again, if I remember correctly) you really just want to finish because it is SUCH a confusing and arduous read.

    It just continuously amazes (and frankly shames) me how effectively I shut down my questioning and skepticism and just swallowed everything in the bible “hook line and sinker.”

    Q: What was I thinking?
    A: I wasn’t!

  • 8. bipolar2  |  September 22, 2007 at 2:26 pm

    For understanding how and why the “Hero who fights the chaos monster ” later becomes “Lord of the Apocapypse” see Norman Cohn’s excellent, very readable “Cosmos, Chaos, and the World to Come” Yale Univ Press.

    They key to understanding all apocalypses within the Near Eastern group of religions lies in realizing that each gets created during a time of foreign invasion, occupation, and sectarian violence. Each is a product of a desire for revenge which can not be expressed except in words, words veiled in obscure symbols and arcane references.

    bipolar2
    copyright asserted 2007

  • 9. HeIsSailing  |  September 23, 2007 at 4:55 am

    bipolar,
    Indeed, Cohn’s book is an outstanding treatment of this fascinating topic. Thanks for the recommendation.

  • 10. Satan: The Greatest Bible Myth « de-conversion  |  April 3, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    [...] this blog, addressing Biblical myths. HeIsSailing wrote on several myths of the Bible including the Leviathan, the creation story, the tower of Babel, and the origins of languages. I wrote an entry on [...]

  • 11. Jeff Bell  |  June 1, 2008 at 3:10 pm

    Hey I cangratulate you man you God gave you a brain that works but your still choosing to be stupid. The bible is not the word of God, hey your right on there man.

    The bible says Jesus is the Word of God, not the scriptures.
    All the bible is, is a History book, which contains the storys of the old and new testements. The recorded verball words which “god” spoke. It contains the message that God wants everyone to be saved but because men are wicked hearted they willing reject him.

    The bible makes it clear to love thy neighbor which you do not. You want everyone to reject God so they all go to Hell because you hate God. Thats sick if you were realy a decent hearted man you would want people to know exactly who God is so they would not be kept under man made laws and religouns.

  • 12. Obi  |  June 1, 2008 at 8:33 pm

    Hey, Jeff. Your spelling is quite atrocious for one I would assume to be a grown man…? But anyway, that’s beside the point. The poster of this article is a decent person BECAUSE they’re leading people away from man-made religions (such as Christianity, which I assume you left out of that category because perhaps you’re a “believer”?), and leading them towards the new appreciation of individuality and self that comes with rejecting man-made religion.

    There may or may not be a God, but it sure as anything isn’t the one these ancients made up to appease themselves. I don’t know about you, but if I had a God I wouldn’t want him to be as jealous, petty, vindictive, and homicidal as the God of the Bible and the gods of human religion in general.

    Good day to you, Jeff!

  • 13. erik  |  July 23, 2008 at 1:03 am

    Hi,
    just doing some looking into the Lotan this evening.
    There is some reason to see that the chaos mythology was incorporated into the creation mysteries celebrated during the Feast of Booths. The establishing of order every year was (is) part of a living understaning of the world–and the modern world seems cluttered with chaos and there is not a myth to purge it.

    I enjoyed the article and hope to read more.
    Thanks

    erik.

  • 14. Brian  |  October 19, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Wow ironic that I would find this post today of all days. I’d be tempted to say it’s a sign, but well, you know. My FIL just posted a link to Hovind’s son’s site on Facebook today. Clearly high-level intelligent stuff on that site. Did you know that evolution can’t explain how the rings of Saturn formed? I had no idea. God must be real. Did you know that evolution can’t explain what happened in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang? Crimietly! Now I know I have gone wrong by trusting in evolution to describe the cosmos… oh wait, evolution never claims to answer these things? Oh well… Bartledoo! So there.

  • 15. Joshua  |  October 19, 2009 at 2:24 pm

    “My answer is better than my lack of imagination.” ~ Hovind’s mind, summed up.

    Sadly his answer is his imagination itself.

  • 16. Joshua  |  October 19, 2009 at 2:45 pm

    But if that is the case, how does that work scientifically? By what scientific method can any creature ignite a flame and breathe it out?

    This is not science. This creature never existed. This is myth.

    Wait a minute…

  • 17. HeIsSailing  |  October 20, 2009 at 2:09 pm

    Joshua hesistates:


    Wait a minute…

    Joshua, do you have a thought to follow this?

  • 18. HeIsSailing  |  October 20, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    Brian says:

    Did you know that evolution can’t explain how the rings of Saturn formed?

    HA! Thanks for the laugh. The Freudian theory of dream analysis can’t explain Saturn’s rings either – oh the folly of it all..!!

  • 19. Joshua  |  October 20, 2009 at 2:17 pm

    Well, I was just thinking how my critique of Hovind could apply to the statement you made :)

    It’s no big deal, because you followed it up with good reason to believe that Leviathan is actually myth.

    However, I couldn’t help think that bombardier beetle seems to get along just fine shooting fiery gases out of its butt. I could see dinosaurs doing a similar thing out of their mouths.

  • 20. AwesomeJesus  |  October 23, 2009 at 12:50 pm

    Hels

    I just happen upon this.. I am one of those believers and new creations in God through Jesus that believe the entirety of the bible is true. Not all is understood by Christians, Jews and non-believers but the bible(God) says ask God and he will reveal it to you.

    Concerning Levi ‘athan.. in one area you are right it has a lot to do with “lucifer, satan, the devil, the prince of the power of the air, son of the dawn, the (previous) day star, that old serpent ” – many names. God has many creatures we know about and many we do not ie 4 beast that worship him made of man lion and bird etc.

    Many misinterpret Levi’ athan but God says exactly what Levi’ athan is at the end of the discussion with Job. Levi’athan is “The King (Spirit) of Pride”. . God is saying to Job can you control your Pride. In all areas of the bible when Levi’ athan is spoken of it is about Pride is some form. Pride has several other entities that come along with it – anger is one disbelief in God is another. So when you see Levi’ athan /pride in other areas of the bible think of other things that come along with it and you’ll see God is speaking of one of those aspects or pride itself.

    God hates pride. Its the thing that actually brought lucifer down or was either started in Lucifer. As we know Jesus said Lucifer started sin, “is the father of lies”, and “was a murder from the beginning”.

    I hope this helps. The bible is true and Jesus the Son of God is real. There are many areas were God has to bring interpretation and God wants us to ask him but in honesty of seeking him.

  • 21. HeIsSailing  |  October 23, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    AwesomeJesus, I am glad you enjoyed this old article of mine. Can I ask a question – how do you ‘that believe the entirety of the bible is true’, when you admit that you do not understand it all. If you do not understand it all, how do you know it is true?

    Also, if you claim “the bible(God) says ask God and he will reveal it to you”, how can you still claim that you do not understand it all? Haven’t you asked? And if every Christian asks the same God for understanding, how is it that they sometimes come up with vastly different answers (ie, your interpretation of Leviathan is just one of many out there. Did you ask God to reveal this meaning to you? How do you know this is correct?)

  • 22. AwesomeJesus  |  October 24, 2009 at 5:26 am

    Hels,

    Sorry to be long winded

    If you do not understand it all, how do you know it is true?

    In college taking up engineering I studied physics and chemistry. Under the direction of the professor we went through only portions of the books for the classes. There was material I understood and received an A for in testing or material where I received a different grade based on my natural understanding. If I wanted to better understand the Text I then needed to ask the Professor or some other authority on the subject in study. Though I knew most all of the theorems , hypotheses, and laws to be true there were still some things that had to be explained to me.

    The bible is the same somewhat. God has put a tremendous amount in the bible to show us moral standards and how to worship him. Understanding these items come in two scenarios natural understanding and spiritual understanding. I have learned for what I do know naturally and spiritually it is totally true so my FAITH is that all else is true. This is similar to my natural learning in life.

    how can you still claim that you do not understand it all?

    I have not read it all.

    Haven’t you asked?

    For the things I understand yes.

    And if every Christian asks the same God for nderstanding, how is it that they sometimes come up with vastly different answers (ie, your interpretation of Leviathan is just one of many out there.

    This is true not all Christians are truly asking the same God in the same FAITH. God says “to come to him you must first believe that he is” “and that he is a rewarded of those who diligently seek him”.He also says “study to show thy self approved” and If you “lack knowledge(on something) ask on he will answer without with holding”. Lastly he says “without FAITH its impossible to please God”.

    Many I will say lean to their own natural interpretation of the Bible alone and do not seek God in FAITH in the Holy Spirit for confirmation of natural interpretation nor revelation of what more or exactly he is saying in the scripture.

    Did you ask God to reveal this meaning to you? How do you know this is correct?)

    Yes I did ask God to reveal this to me and he did. I know this is correct because I have FAITH in my relationship with God and His word I read.
    The bible cannot be attained by just natural understanding – actually the bible/God says to seek God is understanding and wisdom – so this means to understand his instruction to us we have to be in prayer and FAITH and humble.

  • 23. HeIsSailing  |  October 24, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    AmazingJesus says:
    This is true not all Christians are truly asking the same God in the same FAITH.

    Wow – how do I reply without sounding condescending?

    All I can say is just that this viewpoint – that same divine revealation will come to those Christians who hold the same faith is just… so incredibly naive.

    AmazingJesus, in all seriousness, do you know *anything* about the history or sociology of your religion? It reminds me of my old Calvary Chapel pastor who claimed it as a virtue to be as utterly ignorant as possible about anything other than the Bible and being ‘led by the Spirit’. After a few years of listening to this uneducated clown I finally realized what a fool he was turning himself into, and I left that Church. And I was still a believing Christian at the time..!!

    You continue:
    Yes I did ask God to reveal this to me and he did.

    So you are saying that all other Bible beliving Christians who hold different views on this same passage (and there are *many* views on this, and nearly every other scripture amongst believing Christians) do not have the same Faith as you? But *YOU* have the correct revelation because…

    I know this is correct because I have FAITH in my relationship with God and His word I read

    Wow.

    Do you have any idea hor arrogant and condescending this is, not to me, but to your fellow Christians? That somehow YOU, AmazingJesus, have a direct hotline go the creator of the universe, at the exclusion of any other person, even any other *Christian*, who does not share the same Faith as You???

    I am sorry – but this line of reasoning is utterly maddening to me. This claim of exclusivity of the truth, mixed with such childish simple-mindedness and naivete is one of the worst aspects of religion.

  • 24. AwesomeJesus  |  October 24, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    Hels,

    Ha Ha Ha your very funny. I’m not going to go point for point but here’s some thought on this. As in any thing there is growth, we see the Lord God through Jesus has made this as law all around us whether rapid or small growth. Also as in my previous analogy with schooling and engineering, individuals learn and grasp what they can. If their diligent they will do further independent study and or ask someone that’s possibly more knowledgeable so they gain more knowledge..

    This is the idea of the bible, God’s word, and the life we live toward him. We continue to learn and grow – not learning just to the natural but the spirit/super natural as well. Many decide just to stay in the nature and miss many interpretations. The bible says “lean not to thy own understanding but in all thy ways acknowledge him”(God). Even if we know we should ask God – there may be something else he may want to tell us. Many theologians are stuck in the natural sorry to say. The natural is not bad its just that your stuck there – there has to be a balance of both.
    Also just be clear I not saying I know more than all but just that I asked and that was the answer I got and its very clear.

    Remember the word of God says we go from “Faith to Faith” and “Glory to Glory” meaning we grow in Faith and in understanding of Gods Glory. It also says not to be so natural to be stuck in the milk of the word and not able to receive the meat of the word. Some people are stuck in milk and their interpretation may be based on milk.

    God wants us all to be adults and elder adults at that. I hope I can encourage you to believe again. Sometimes you have to get rid of all the faults of man and look only to Jesus and God as he asks us to do. Its truly a Faith thing in God and not in man.

  • 25. Quester  |  October 25, 2009 at 2:28 am

    See, HiS? AJ is a mature Christian who goes to God in the RIGHT FAITH to get answers to questions, but doesn’t ask other questions because AJ has (the right) faith. If only we were so mature in our Christian walk, we would have had the faith to not ask questions, except for the questions we humbly asked in the right faith to therefore receive the clear, correct answers. It’s a matter of balance, and supernatural knowledge.

    Golly gee, if only my theology professors had laid it out like AJ. I feel so encouraged now to have faith again. I sure hope it’s the right faith this time.

    I’m thinking Pastafarianism.

  • 26. AwesomeJesus  |  October 25, 2009 at 3:17 am

    Hi Quester,

    You’re very funny as well. I’ve learned a new word.

    You really can not be stuck on people and all the bad they have done in the name of the Judaism/Christian God. However, that said if you truly want to believe and not just bash either look at the example of someone that does not have as many faults but really tried or tries to live the natural and spiritual life of the bible and/or seek God for yourself but with all honesty and the level of FAITH you start out with.

    You will find if you’re honest and diligent God responds.
    This is No magic or funny business like believing in aliens. God says if you seek him you will find him but first have FAITH that he is. Its funny most rather believe in aliens as their God watching over them or advancing them rather than the true God.

    The Bible is all about advancing us beyond our wildest dreams. However when praying God does not always answer quickly he tests the Fickleness/Faithlessness in our minds to see us diligent with a true desire for him.

    What I’m giving is my experience and the experience of many others like me. There is truth in God and Jesus. The entity (Devil/Lucifer/Pride) we spoke of earlier is the one whom over the centuries (and from the world beginning) has distorted the truth in conjunction with evil men seeking gain and riches. Please do not let what they have done keep you in the dark.

    There is God and Jesus who loves you with the very air you breath and the water you drink.

  • 27. HeIsSailing  |  October 25, 2009 at 3:55 am

    Amazing Jesus, I know you do not intend to come across this way, but here is why we view your comments as so infuriating and condescending to us:

    You said:
    You will find if you’re honest and diligent God responds.

    AmazingJesus, we are not those characatures you hear from the pulpit – those folks who ‘tried’ Christianity, ‘tasted’ Jesus, and ran away not liking the Christian lifestyle.

    On the contrary. We spent or entire lives honestly, fervently, dilegently, thoroughly and completely, and in every way imaginable, sought after God. Because we wanted to be good Christians. Because we wanted to please Jesus. Because we were led to believe that the Christian walk was the only walk for a fulfilled life. I wanted to be a good Christian, a good and faithful husband, and I was taught that I could not be any of those things without Jesus.

    I was a fervent Christian for over 40 years, AmazingJesus, not 40 minutes. Many of the contributors here were Christians even longer. Quester, whom you so quickly dismiss, was once even a pastor of a church!! I was never a pastor, but I held home Bible Studies in my home for many years, spent many months, and lots of my own money on mission trips and relief aid to some of the poorest parts of this country. I was once nearly fired from my job, because I decided it was more important to witness the Gospel to some guy at a busstop than go to work (I have to write an article about that episode – what a moral dilemna I felt that was..!!)

    So, AmazingJesus, trust me, we understand what the Faith Game is all about. We lived it our entire lives!!!

    I know you think you are doing well by saying the things you do, but to people with our backgrounds, your suggestion that we simply rely on Faith is just ludicrous. As if we haven’t tried that already for YEARS..!!

    please….

  • 28. AwesomeJesus  |  October 25, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Hels,

    Concerning this..
    I know you think you are doing well by saying the things you do, but to people with our backgrounds, your suggestion that we simply rely on Faith is just ludicrous. As if we haven’t tried that already for YEARS..!!

    please….

    I know you must get many that come to this site saying God sent them but yes I see God has sent me here as well. I looked around at your other blogs last night and two others in conjunction with this very blog are exactly what God has been putting on my mind this past week.

    So here’s what he wants me to say on the site.

    Hebrews 11 as you all possibly know full well along with Romans 8 and Psalms 119. you all should study again don’t read study but read out loud..

    Also here’s my testimony to date.. I grew up in a Christian Family both my mother and father Pastors and Evangelists. I strayed away in my mid years and have since come back over 10 years ago. Coming back I had similar issues to what you have now. Actually on another site of yours “You God Can’t Do” was my major issue with God and the church. Also I had a bad allergic skin condition during all my adolences and teens and though God would use my father to heal other of different thing I grow out of my condition –an elongated healing.

    When coming back to God I actually had a lot of similar sayings in “Your God Can’t Do” in my prayers to God and I prayed for him to show me what he was doing, where are the miracles, where is the belief, where is unity etc. As I was diligent in my commitment to him he has shown me his workings around the world and the US. I did not recognize the answers at first then they started to pile up and I recognized and they are still coming — answered prayer! All the answered prayer is a lot to go into and I may list at my next write.

    However, please know that revival is coming true worship of God and Jesus his son. Jesus wants every person he created. Although punishment is worst for those who knew and went back he still wants them to comeback in before they miss the point of no return. This is said by Jesus in the New Testament and God in the old Testament.

    I know of and have many personal miracle testimonies of the Lord JESUS.

    Every one’s growth walk is different.. but this really is sometimes a “faith unto blood” thing. When Jesus teaches us how to pray after the disciples ask he tells them the blessed Our Father prayer which is awesome if you really know what your saying. And then he teaches two other things persistence even when not answered right away until answered and to ask for the Holy Spirit (this is the Gift) we should always ask for Gods Spirit in all our prayers.- All in Faith–Love–Humility-Boldness

    Hope this is not to long

  • 29. LeoPardus  |  October 25, 2009 at 5:15 pm

    This exchange is just TOO funny.

    AJ, “I am one of those believers and new creations in God through Jesus that believe the entirety of the bible is true.”

    HIS, “how can you still claim that you do not understand it all?”

    AJ, “I have not read it all.”

    Sheesh!</b?

  • 30. LeoPardus  |  October 25, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Darn lack of edit function.

  • 31. Quester  |  October 25, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    All right, AJ, you’ve written what God sent you to write. We’ve read it.

    I even went and read the chapters of the Bible you recommended:

    Hebrews 11 – “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.”

    Romans 8 – “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. ”

    Psalm 119 – “Fulfill your promise to your servant, so that you may be feared.”

    I thank you for sharing these verses with us. Reading these words aloud, I can feel the desperation these writer’s must have felt in the face of an inactive God. The Psalm especially carries the cry of my heart as I was deconverting- “I promise you everything, God, just reveal yourself to me. Please? You are awesome, wonderful and perfect. Give me some sign that you exist. That you care?” I appreciate being reminded that people have struggled with these thoughts for millenia because God continually failed to act. They could only hope for maybe someday.

  • 32. AwesomeJesus  |  October 25, 2009 at 8:14 pm

    Hi Leo,

    I’m sure you have FAITH in what you watch in the news and most media today. I’m also sure what ever your personal study is in your life today you’ve found it’s Proven itself to you previously and you have a expectation of truth (FAITH) in what to you surely do not know nor know in detail.

    Well I have to many testimonies of God’s word being true that what I do not know or have not read I’m sure its true and will test it in FAITH now rather than doubt.

    Hi Quester,

    God only had me here to see what you all have done and witness by giving a true testimony to what he has done in my life and to give some understanding to some of the posts you have out there.. If you take the cynicism of today’s world and apply it to the Chapters I offered then you are lost by the standards of the bible. However, to understand those scriptures these are individuals removing PRIDE and the LUSTs of this natural life from themselves so that God would answer and he did.

    • Hebrews 11 – “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised.”
    The promise the author of Hebrews is talking about here is Christ and the Gift Christ left of the Holy Spirit. The other promises God did deliver on or else we would not have Israel and the other native people in the Middle East as well as other deliverables.
    Romans 8 – “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. ”
    There are two scenarios with this – one is Christ coming again in which we are physically changed and the other is here now having FAITH and walking righteous and holy so that we are revealed as a son of God and not of the Devil which is what we inherently are . I have seen angles, seen dead come to life seen , the very nature of thing change. Most of all I see my prayers answered for righteousness. There is something to walking in FAITH and righteousness and holiness.
    Psalm 119 – “Fulfill your promise to your servant, so that you may be feared.”
    This is said so that God here’s that you know you trust his promise and you have an expectation of him to deliver. It like a parent saying I promise you a motorcyle for graduation but if you don’t remind them of their promise then that $10K motor cycle may not come. You continually remind them your doing well gradating with honors then they deliver on their date of choice. God tests a lot actually to see if we really care about his promises and when we pray he does want to hear his word repeated back to him and that we know his promise and have faith he will deliver. When he delivers he gets glory and we get glory.(fear – as you know means respect and reverence because he answered,)

    I hope you all are aware that at this point you may become a statistic in that verse that says many in the last days will fall away. You also know that since you speak against Christ and God and not for knowledge/understanding but to tear down you are operating in the spirit of the antichrist. You were all truly ministers you know you are responsible and accountable for much

  • 33. Quester  |  October 25, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    AJ,

    God only had me here to see what you all have done and witness by giving a true testimony to what he has done in my life and to give some understanding to some of the posts you have out there

    And you’ve done it. Good job. May you and yours be happy, prosperous and take advantage of the many opportunities there are for education.

  • 34. AwesomeJesus  |  October 25, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    All,

    As you can tell that was a near last comment. God is not against us but our actions unless we are truly hardend in heart. As you may see I tried not to make it personal to you but to your comments. I pray that you all return if you were truly previously saved.

    Remember even as the unbeliever Einstien directed to keep it simple. The entirety of the bible is sumed up in – Love God with all you can and are, Love your neighbor as youself.

  • 35. Blue  |  October 25, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    Guess all that guff about hell, genocide, slavery is just a way of showing really intense love? The god Yaweh has to threaten and torture people to get love?

    Pass. I’m sure you’ve made up enough of your own religion to ignore that, but hey maybe you’ll wake up. Your god isn’t real, you’re praying to yourself, and any good changes in your life have been because of you and the very human, mortal people around you.

  • 36. AwesomeJesus  |  October 26, 2009 at 2:09 am

    Blue

    I have not seen a parent not threaten or punish nor not spank their child if they promote discipline and responsibility and moral growth and if they do not then the nature of that child is to curse the parent. I see a lot of children cursing and killing parents today – because of false child upbringing in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.

    Also, the drug addicted child/adult, the killer, the rapist, that won’t help themselves help to bring others down with them, so at some point you have to let them go but of course after exhausted efforts to heal them. This is similar to hardened hearts of unbelief. You may even give them provision from afar this is similar to the air we breathe, the water we drink, the food we eat. But again if they do not change they kill themselves and others.
    Under the first covenant genocide was for a reason there were people that were not Jews and knew God and there were people that were not Jews and did not know God but were moral and then there were those that were just lawless.
    Hell was only meant for fallen angels but because man wants to go the same path as fallen angles in disobedience hell is for them as well. Note however God gives multiple chances even on the last Day of Judgment for some of man. – but not for those that knew him and denied him.

    The bible says “TRUE religion is to help the widow and the fatherless” – this is the only religion I have. This other stuff in the world is man made dogma.
    I do have FAITH and Love and a real God that does live within me. The word of God says He himself “wishes for those that will worship him in spirit (our true existing nature) and in truth”, “also he said he “will come to walk among and dwell within his people(Jews and those that have FAITH in Him).” also “If you abide in my word (which is righteous and moral) I and my father will come and live with in you” Yes there is God YHVH Yaweh Jehova Jesus in me that changes the sin nature of the world in me and around me and can be in you.

  • 37. Quester  |  October 26, 2009 at 3:12 am

    “TRUE religion is to help the widow and the fatherless”

    Then go do so, AJ. Stop nattering in all capitals about faith and religion as if you have a copy of the Bible with the answer key in the back. Instead, go feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick and fight for justice. With or without a god, that would be worth doing.

  • 38. AwesomeJesus  |  October 26, 2009 at 8:47 am

    Quester,

    Its great there is not an answer key I have looked at for any of the comments written but instead this is all from the heart – as the word of God says an a walking epistle written and read of men full of the word of God – that I do know. Even though you don’t acccept my witness (not religion) to you I hope its a seed by which you and all else call on later today or any other time in life.

    Best Regards
    AwesomeJesus

  • 39. AwesomeJesus  |  October 26, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Quester,

    Correction addition..

    Its great there is not an answer key nor any material I have looked at for any of the comments written but instead this is all from the heart – as the word of God says we should be “a walking epistle written and read of men” “full of the word of God” – the word that I do know. Even though you don’t accept my witness (not religion) to you I hope its a seed by which you and all else call on later today or any other time in life because these are words of life for now and for life eternal..

    Best Regards
    AwesomeJesus

  • 40. LeoPardus  |  October 26, 2009 at 10:42 am

    As you can tell that was a near last comment.

    Oh do come to the actual last one soon.

  • 41. Brian  |  October 26, 2009 at 10:49 am

    OH goody, somebody new who thinks we haven’t heard all this before. Somebody new who thinks he’s the only one who has asked God the right way and has the answers we need. Somebody new who trusts the Bible implicitly in everything it says… yet for some reason hasn’t even read the whole thing. Hm, that’s new.

  • 42. SnugglyBuffalo  |  October 26, 2009 at 11:42 am

    AJ-

    Its great there is not an answer key I have looked at for any of the comments written but instead this is all from the heart

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” – Jeremiah 17:9

    Of course, you’ll find some way to read this verse that it doesn’t actually mean that you shouldn’t trust your “heart.”

    Are you seriously going to compare God to human parents? I don’t know any parents who would torture their children forever for their disobedience, no matter how terrible.

  • 43. LeoPardus  |  October 26, 2009 at 12:19 pm

    Hey tD-C: Can you move the big, red exclamation mark bit up to the very top of the page? Above “Today’s Featured Link”

    Maybe, just maybe mind you, some folks will notice it up there.

  • 44. AwesomeJesus  |  October 27, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    Man I have to say Blogs are addictive especially when there is a desire to win a soul for Christ. At any rate I will try to stay away after this I see now that after bouncing around again on your other sites that you all who were in Christ really are deep on this new path of antichrist. I’m not giving up though. There is the example of the prodigal son in the Bible.

    Here are the real comments…and I do now say these things with understanding and knowing that you have possibly heard and read some flavor of them before. My Hope is they will further enrich the knowledge of Jesus in you life.

    @Brian

    You’re an atheist? – do you understand what it means to be an atheist?. Aren’t you having FAITH in what you have positioned your life for? Your bible is modern media modern science modern dogma what they say today and then prove/disprove tomorrow. Your FAITH is solid in the natural nature of what you know, have known, and thus will know. Again you have FAITH for Truth in what you do not know.

    @ SnugglyBuffalo

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” – Jeremiah 17:9

    Yes this is true and that is why we accept Jesus. When we accept Jesus and live righteously and holy in FAITH., then the heart is clean and the tongue pure- In fact the bible says out of the heart/bosom will flow rivers of Living Water (Living Water is God’s Holy Spirit), which is saying God will flow out of you in Love, in Healing, in Prosperity, in FAITH, in Righteousness, in Holiness , in Salvation and in Truth.

    Yes of course there is more to God than the Parent analogy I gave. Here’s another of the potter. The potter puts his all into a vessel it is awesome yet becomes marred because he loves the vessel he takes it and remakes it through a rough process but into a new vessel incorruptible. There are other vessel some more marred some less some each goes through a similar, a more or a lesser process to become incorruptible. Of course there is more to this as well but this also is a part of the story.

    @All,

    FYI In reading your other sites on why de-cons I noticed a very intellectual session on the mind here’s some comment

    The Christians community has those that were mentalist, Buddhists, and involved in meditation etc. that are now Christians. These converted have confirmed a lot of what was said about the mind and the scenario of being outside ones self. The difference for us however is that it helps us to understand what God has done and is doing not that the experience is just all natural in and of the mind itself.

    In fact there is a well documented case I was listening to a few weeks ago from Dr. James Dobson about a South American shaman that was trained from child hood to call on spirits. Now these spirits would show themselves to him Guide him and supposedly heal people however the bad attribute is that people weren’t; healed and also they would keep him in war with other villages. Because of this he was not at peace and when a missionary came to the village for the first time he asked the missionary about their happiness and the missionary told him about God. The description the missionary gave him of God lead the Shaman to say he knew God because he could see him from afar when in the spirit realm but the other spirits had told him not to approach God because God was bad. However, since the Shaman wanted the peace and happiness he saw in the missionary he decide to be rid of the current spirits and seek God the most high spirit. When he asked God into his heart the current spirits he had tried to kill him by taking him into the spirit world he had visited so much. In the spirit realm they would not let him go but he called on God even more and God answered by telling the other spirits he was no longer theirs and to let him go. This shaman now tells this testimony always. This is an example of people that know God/Christ before missionaries ever visited but fallen angels block their knowledge of God until a human with Gods new authority help to open the door to God. The bible says the enemy originally had this right because Adam gave the world to him but Christians take back that right through Jesus, through prayer, through FAITH, through love.

    Also just a real comment to be careful of altered states. Because you guys think everything is only natural you may try altered states. Altered states whether drugs alcohol, sleeplessness, or mediation will open you to a very true spirit realm, but that’s not the way to God and its not to play with. It’s a way to opening yourself to more of the evil you don’t believe in. Also some believe Christians mediate however no where in the bible does it say to do this in fact it guards against it – saying to be on watch always and to be strong in the mind and to gird up the loins of our minds. When it speaks of meditating it speaks of thinking on Gods word. No where in the bible does it tell you to empty your mind. God wants you always to be (active) praying talking to him about your issues and praising him.

    I say all this because God is real and I have seen things myself that hospitals and municipalities have documented.

    Died but now Alive

    • I have a sister stabbed ~17 times by her husband died and was dead for hours. The hospital called my house my father a pastor prayed on the phone and she sat up on the slab at the moment of prayer shouting the name of Jesus. She is still alive today with man scare around her neck to from the wounds.
    • I know some of your cynicism may be why did God let it happen and you know my response for his testimony. She lives for the Lord today but before was not.

    • I have a fellow church member that just nearly died but should be dead by this worlds natural means. Was doing day care and taking a child home, but had an aneurism, heart-attack, and seizer in the car in the parking lot of the school and was there for 6 hours before anyone found them. The child was ok but of course my fellow worshipper was near death with blood having poured into her brain. The hospital told her family she would die but my current pastor was there and spoke by the spirit of God that she would live. Her body shook and was reived and the hospital began to drain the blood from here brain and began more of toher recovery items. That was seven weeks agon she is walking around church today with her full mind.

    • My son was injured he dead and we prayed and the hospital revived him. Two days later unresponsive they said he would die again we prayed and God revived him and he did not die. He then slipped into a coma and I asked God if I could wake him. God told me to command Michael to wake up. I commanded him to wake up and he awoke in that instance out of the comma and has been healing ever since

    • I met a woman in a friends church that died then the church prayed and she was revived after 45-60 minutes. This happened over the summer.

    Just Miracles

    • I know of missionary’s in Haiti that have gone through flood areas in a ricity car with the water up to the windows and the car would drive right through the flood without being washed away, nor stalling, nor filling with water while other cars were being washed away stalling and filling with water..

    • I’ve seen God perform many miracles through me right before my eyes miracles of healings, and delivering the holy spirit.

    • I know of churches first hand in ministry in South America that battle real witchcraft in the lives of people and God is constantly doing Miracles to show he is God to win the souls to him. This is the same for China, and Africa. People walking on water, rocks floating on water, cancers removed, many various healings and provisional blessings.

    Angels and Demons

    • I personally have seen angels and heard their wings and seen a vision of them.
    • I have seen demons and know them to be real. I have battled in prayer and authority and won

    I could go on and on the point is maybe you’ve heard this before maybe not, but the fact is if you want to see God working in your life and others you will see it and experience it.

    There are many many other personal and third person works of God I could tell you about that would blow your mind but your FAITH has to have a simmer to receive. I hope the gives you a simmer.

    There are 600 Million who believe they way I do across all countries and this is growing. This is part of the multi-billion number of Christians already in the world today, and are various churches and denominations.

    We believe God and grow in belief and FAITH that God can and will do anything. I personally am non-denominational I belive the bible and Jesus the son and the Father.

    Again, the questions and issues you have on the “why de-cons” can get answers, have FAITH be FAITHFUL and put God to the task of answering HE WANTS THAT, but as He says He gives Grace to the Humble.

  • 45. Joe  |  October 27, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Remember those old 33-1/3 vinyl records? You’d get a scratch in them and you’d hear the same musical refrain over and over again until you’d get so frantically annoyed that you’d grab the record and smash it onto the floor, and then you’d pick up the pieces and throw them into a kettle over the fire and melt it down unitl you could smush it into a medium sized black bowl that resembled a lump of coal so much that you threw it into a passing train’s open car filled with coal and it blended right in so that when it got to it’s destination they unloaded it with the rest of the coal, and fed it into a fire at an insane asylum filled with people who listened to too many 33-1/3 vinyl albums with scratches in them when they were kids.

  • 46. Phil Stilwell  |  October 27, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Hi Awesomejesus,

    You said “I have a sister stabbed ~17 times by her husband died and was dead for hours.” This sounds like possible evidence of a miracle.

    Could you elaborate on how many hours your sister was dead, what she died from, and who pronounced her dead? That would help immensely.

    Thanks, Phil

  • 47. LeoPardus  |  October 27, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    If there was an ‘ignore’ function, AJ would be on it. But then I’d miss the humor break wouldn’t I?

  • 48. AwesomeJesus  |  October 27, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Here’s another humor break.

    CHOP is one of the leading hospitals in the world for children. I spent 5 months there with my son. There are many miracles documented from his recovery vs diagnosis and anticipated end – God and God working through the hospital staff.

    They have cases of other Christians praying and individuals being healed – they document this stuff and expect it. They don’t promote it outside your specific visit because its not accepted mainstream but we have learned that Major news organizations have documented that hospitals encourage prayer. Why don’t you research it.

    The hospital my son was first in before CHOP even told us to pray they said they just had another group of Christians in the PICU weeks before where an individual had an incurable condition the group then said give them an hour of prayer they prayed and no more incurable condition the patient walked out the PICU.

    Also I met a women in another church that came from South America. She is 26 now. When she was two the doctors in Brazil had given her up to die and the parents took her home. She had cancer in her skull. In their testing the hospital had taken a biopsy of the bone.

    When they brought her home – they then took her to church. At church an elder in the church said to the parents that God said your child will not die. Later at home that night the father sitting in a chair crying and sleeping saw his front door open and a guy in a white robe walk in. The guy had a platter with a baby skull. The father did not get up because he thought he was dreaming. The guy walked up his stairs and then later came down. The guy in all white still had a platter but with a baby skull mostly broken and crushed. The guy spoke to the father and said your child is healed. They took their child to the hospital the next day and found the biopsy spot was gone and all the cancer gone. The hospital proclaimed it a miracle however they said although God healed the cancer she would not have full facility to read/write not walk or talk because God did not heal the cerebellum (or the are in the lower rear part of the brain) that had be eaten by cancer as well. However by 3 she was running and by 5 she was reading and writing. A 5 year old reading and writing, I have 6 kids and that’s hard. The hospital had been taking blood from her up until 3 years ago when she came to the states to study. Again all documented

    Phil I will get you what you requested.

    God says seek and ye shall find knock and the door with be open ask and it will be given unto you – have FAITH.

  • 49. Phil Stilwell  |  October 27, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    But where is the documentation? Did this all happen near Rosedale? These are beautiful stories, but I just need the documentation. Is that too much to ask?

  • 50. Phil Stilwell  |  October 27, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    For those of you interested in a real prayer study, read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567.

  • 51. AwesomeJesus  |  October 28, 2009 at 12:28 am

    My sister was in 1986 – getting documentation – I will also get the documentation for the Brazilian women.

  • 52. Quester  |  October 28, 2009 at 1:07 am

    Please do provide the documentation, AJ. I’m especially interested in the “well-documented” story by Dr. Dobson, that wasn’t actually witnessed.

  • 53. peridot  |  October 28, 2009 at 9:33 am

    Thanks, Phil, for the reference in #50. I used to work in pharmaceutical R&D so I understand the importance of a study being controlled, randomized, multicenter, multiprovider, and analyzed statistically.

  • 54. peridot  |  October 28, 2009 at 9:57 am

    Also, just wanted to say that anecdotal stories like AJ’s just don’t cut it for me anymore. At all.

    As a teenager and a very early believer, I experienced a health recovery that seemed like a very clear example of divine power. I really believed God had answered my prayer, and my christian faith was strengthened. Any other explanation seemed extremely unlikely at the time, impossible to believe really. I was amazed, and it was a significant event in the development of my beliefs.

    Twenty years later I found out — from reading secular medical literature — that the problem I had sometimes resolves spontaneously in adolescence. Sigh . . .

  • 55. LeoPardus  |  October 28, 2009 at 10:05 am

    AJ:

    Your lies are tiresome. You’re a child among adults. You can’t understand why we see right through your crap. You won’t understand unless someday you grow up. Now go play in a sandbox somewhere. This is a place for adults.

    No child. No tantrums. No child. We know you’re making stuff up. Don’t bother with the childish protestations. We see through you and you can’t understand why. Just accept it. Someday, if you grow up, it will make sense to you.

  • 56. HeIsSailing  |  October 28, 2009 at 10:58 am

    AmazingJesus, you claim that a 26 year-old friend of yours was ‘healed’ when she was 2. This healing occured in a Brazilian hospital and, you claim, was a direct result of a strange man carrying a crushed skull pronouned the healing in her father’s house. You also say this story is ‘documented’.

    What exactly does this documentation entale? Do you have medical records from the Brazilian hospital proclaiming that the healing was a direct result of this shaman-like figure in her father’s house? I highly doubt it, since this story was just told to you by a church member, and you apparantly just believe it uncritically. But if you do have ‘documentation’ (whatever that means), we would love to see it. If you are claiming you have evidence for this stuff actually occuring, we are calling you on it.

    PS – ‘documentation’ does not mean more anecdotes, or webpages promoting healing shamens in South America (Google searches will reveal plenty of these). For the record, I am with LeoPardus – I think that by spreading these stories, you are nothing but a fraud and a liar – or seriously deluded.

  • 57. AwesomeJesus  |  October 28, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    Phil

    On the Focus on the Family site you would order CD 5009127
    the title is “Finding the One True God I, II Cheif Shoefoot, Gary Dawson – Gary is the son of the missionaries that first came to the tribe and grewup learning thier language.

    If you do not go to the FOF site see if there is something in secular means about Chief Shoefoot and the Yanamamo tribe.

    My quick web research cameup with this.
    Chief Shoefoot and his peoples violent, fear-filled existence is documented in a book titled The Spirit of the Rain Forest, written by Mark Ritchie (available from Island Lake Press 1-800-245-1022).

  • 58. Joe  |  October 28, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    I googled “chief shoefoot” and an executive at Florsheim comes up.

    Just kidding. There is a Chief Shoefoot on Google. I’d never heard of him before.

  • 59. Blue  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    From http://www.cannibalholocaust.net/yamamomo.htm
    The Yanomamo take hallucinogenic drugs almost on a daily basis. All drugs they use are commonly available from the jungle: from the yakowana tree (whose bark is ground into a snuff powder) and from the seeds of the hisiomo tree (which are packed into cigar-shaped wads and traded amongst the friendly villages). In powder form, all drugs are referred to as “ebene” by the tribes. The men take ebene every day, paint themselves red and put on feathers. A long hollow tube called a “mokohiro” is used to blow the powder into another Yanomamo’s nostrils. The drug-induced Yanomamo then awaits visits by the spirits.

    So with that in mind I’m more then a little disinclined to believe anything about “spiritual” experiences from a drugged up shaman. I’ve taken hallucinogenic mushrooms myself back in the day and I can tell you that the mind does some wacky stuff. After daily use, I wouldn’t think one could trust anything you see or feel practically. Like being a schizophrenic I imagine.

  • 60. CheezChoc  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    I can’t empty my mind, de-stress, and relax even after yoga or Pilates or the healing rhythms drumming circle for fear of demons rushing?
    Dang it. A girl can’t even relax anymore. I suppose spa visits are out of the question, too.

  • 61. CheezChoc  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    rushing IN, I meant to say in the first second of post #60.

  • 62. Joe  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Blue (#59)—

    I took the mushrooms too. I remember once after downing a few I thought I was on a deconversion blog of all things, talking about Chaos Monsters and the like. I was actually in line at WalMart, buying video games, but the blog seemed so real to me. It was pretty amazing—it was like I was actually there.

  • 63. Joe  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:41 pm

    Now I’m really confused—am I on the blog or at Walmart? I just saw Leopardus in Menswear.

  • 64. Joe  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    But wait, Leopardus most likely doesn’t buy his clothers at WalMart, so maybe I’m in Macy’s.

  • 65. Blue  |  October 28, 2009 at 7:52 pm

    Heh, one time when I popped them Joe I spoke to not only a tree that came to life like an Ent from Lord of the Rings, but also an elk that was walking by. His name was Harold of all things.

  • 66. CheezChoc  |  October 28, 2009 at 8:50 pm

    You guys should check out peopleofwalmart.com and just hope nobody photographed you! :)

  • 67. LeoPardus  |  October 28, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    Well at least you saw me in Menswear and not while I was in the Womenswear fitting room. *Blush*

  • 68. Roy  |  October 28, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    So the question, Leo, is are you a cross-dresser, a pervert, or a Walmart employee? :-)

  • 69. Joshua  |  October 28, 2009 at 10:11 pm

    Goodness, I think I’ve been greeted by all three of those at once when entering Walmart. That was Leo?

  • 70. CheezChoc  |  October 29, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    BTW,
    I’m not inclined to listen to anything James Dobson has to say, for many reasons.

  • 71. AwesomeJesus  |  October 29, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    CheezChoc,

    Please don’t look at the man. We always look to God our Father through or Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Even Jesus said if you don’t believe me(him) and his word believe the works he did – why – because the Father did them. Things the enemy(Satan/Fallen Angels) could not do. Many false prophets think they are doing many miracles but it is not them but the Lord allowing his work so people are not left helpless – people that truly humbly are calling him.

    False People that were for their gain will in the end say Lord, Lord I healed in your name raised the dead in your name, etc but he will say depart from me you worker of iniquity I never knew you.

    I no longer speak against anyone doing the work of the Lord unless I truly know they are wrong. – the Lord knows their heart.

  • 72. AwesomeJesus  |  October 29, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    Hi all,

    As you more than truly know these are no lies of mine nor of the people that had these life experiences. The insult that they did not have this happen is ok because as you know it’s a blessing when the witness or testimony is accepted and a blessing when cursed as well.

    I am a child in FAITH and submit to be more child like as the word instructs me to but also I’m a growing adult in son ship with my Heavenly Father as the word instructs me to. I pray that people that are sinners will say “Jesus and God is with you, you truly believe” as they have for me. I pray that God will say he “loves you with a great love” as he has for me.

    As you know the Christian Church after indoctrinated into mans rules/intellect lost the full ability of FAITH and the workings of FAITH that spawn it. This was the same story with the Jews over the centuries – new prophet, relearn relationship with God, rejoice in prosperity of wealth and health, forget God, kill prophet or prophet dies, live in sin, God punishes, people repent via new prophet, cycle continues.

    The cycle of the Jews was old already before it began because the bibles say God before hand had revealed himself to the ancients.

    God is always showing signs outside of the normal course of what we know to show he is here. And man sadly enough rejects him time and again. Its interesting only a third of the angels did but most of man in the past has and today possibly will as the word says. However, Jesus says that we wishes non would perish.

    You guys are right we do make up God in our own minds. We reject the ture God for what and who he says he is and make our own Gods. We will worship ourselves, angels, spirits of creation, anything in creation, our intellect and logic, our explanation of what he made, but not God himself.

    This is something I have to look into but my understanding is that many great schools of thought were originally founded on Christian principals and the direction of many attending was for missionary work first then secular work, however success among other things have changed the original background of these schools as well.

    People always ask where is God – He in near showing you he’s here via miracles and mostly with just the time you have of no bad event. My true hope and now prayer is that you see him.

    Note you can rest with him – he says come to his rest. This rest is not emptying your mind though.

    I am still pulling the other info Phil requested.

  • 73. HeIsSailing  |  October 29, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    AwesomeJesus backpeddles:
    As you more than truly know these are no lies of mine nor of the people that had these life experiences…

    blah blah blah
    Your promised documentation please. Put up or shut up.

  • 74. AwesomeJesus  |  October 29, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    Ha Ha Ha
    Read the last comment

  • 75. SnugglyBuffalo  |  October 29, 2009 at 7:05 pm

    Seriously, AJ, just stop. We want evidence, not a sermon.

  • 76. DSimon  |  October 30, 2009 at 9:28 am

    Is FAITH an acronym now? I hope it stands for “Fritos Are Incredibly Tasty, Hey!”

  • 77. SnugglyBuffalo  |  October 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Now that’s a FAITH I can get behind!

  • 78. Joe  |  October 30, 2009 at 4:27 pm

    Awesome—

    I am a Christian, but have to admit totally that many of these “miracle” stories are completely embellished. It’s almost like the game “telephone”—-as the story gets passed on it gets better and better.

    I received a mailing from this one church speaking of how their “elders” had visited the Philippines and had a flat tire while driving in the rain. The Lord miraculously re-inflated the tire and they were able to drive on.

    Stories like that are what produce chuckles in those who once believed because it confirms a lot of the nonsense that passes for Christianity. Being able to produce “evidence” becomes very important when speaking of “miracles”.

  • 79. HeIsSailing  |  October 30, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    Joe,
    I am used to hearing fantastic miracle stories from any and all religous faiths. Those do not really bug me, because iIf we are to be fair, we have to at least consider the possibility of these occuring. After all, atheists are always claiming that God does not regenerate severed limbs. So, if a severed limb actually *was* regenerated, we have to take that very seriously.

    What really irks me though, is this claim AwesomeJesus made that these fantastic miracles are “documented”, which means different things to different people I suppose, but in general means that some reputable, independent, investigative authority has put some sort of verification in writing. When the claim that this documentation exists, they should not be too surprised when we ask for this documentation. In this age of instant information, this should not be too difficult.

    Instead of documentation, AwesomeJesus has asked us to purchase a CD from Focus on the Family, and a book by missionary Mark Ritchie – both of which will contain nothing but more claims and no evidence. That is it. zip nada nothing. If this constitutes “documentation” then every wild consipiracy and UFO theory that I hear on Art Bell’s radio show must be correct.

    My wife is also from the Philippines, a proud Christian I might add. And she is fully aware of the fantastic stories that she hears from missionaries out in the Provinces. I don’t need to even go that far – I grew up in the age of travelling tent revivals. I watched Katherine Kuhlman perform some astounding “miracles” with my own two eyes. Even when I was a Christian, I knew it was all BS.

    AwesomeJesus, when Quester asked for the documentation that you claim exists behind James Dobson’s claims, you pointed us to an episode of Focus on the Family. THIS IS NOT DOCUMENTATION. Do you know the difference between a claim, and documentation that supports the claim? Let me make it clear (courtesy of Phil Stilwell):

    This is a claim: Intercessory prayer has no effect upon a patient’s recovery of an illness.

    This is documentation to back up the claim:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

    AwesomeJesus claims his miracle stories are ‘documented’. If you have no such documentation for your claims, AwesomeJesus, then you are just a liar, and all your preaching and calls for Faith will land on deaf ears. We do not want preaching – we want evidence. I have heard these lies from the pulpit, from religous authority,from evangelists, and faith healers for my entire life, I believe that such lies are harmful, and I think it is high time that we demand from these people exactly what I told AwesomeJesus:

    “Either put up or shut up”.

  • 80. Quester  |  October 30, 2009 at 8:10 pm

    *applauds HIS*

  • 81. AwesomeJesus  |  October 31, 2009 at 9:33 am

    The Evidence is always before us in FAITH.
    If FAITH were an acronym one would be Forever-Always-In-Trusting-Holiness.
    Jesus is real and FAITH is no joke. Jesus and the Father are truly loving – Jesus said you can deny he and the Father and they will both still accept you when your ready to repent to come back. .

    I am working on documents … –

    Two Questions –
    When the information is finally given what will you do?
    Also if very soon God enables a message to be announced to the world that he had someone write of a different race than Jews a few thousand years ago to be found that the God of the bible is creator that he is God the supreme being and what would you do?

    Would you still have or want to keep the disappointments that led you here to doubt, fear, resentment, FAITHlessness, anger, mistrust, natural peace, natural intellect, natural happiness? Would you in God in FAITH honestly and with fervency re-approach your circumstances, questions and issues that brought you here to then truly obtain answers from God? His will for mankind is to answer. His will for mankind is to open. His will for man is to redeem. His will for mankind is to give and bring back what was lost. His will for mankind is peace natural and spiritual, understanding and wisdom for all things he gave us natural and spiritual, joy in him for our natural situations and for all spiritual circumstances.

    For the accident with my son God gave me a peace about my son’s health and the situation. No brain activity but I had peace/FAITH God would revive him and he did.

  • 82. Quester  |  October 31, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    When the information is finally given what will you do?

    Read it and see if it gives any weight to your statements. So far you seem to be a liar.

    Also if very soon God enables a message to be announced to the world that he had someone write of a different race than Jews a few thousand years ago to be found that the God of the bible is creator that he is God the supreme being and what would you do?

    Read it and see if it provides any testable evidence for a creator or supreme being.

    Would you still have or want to keep the disappointments that led you here to doubt, fear, resentment, FAITHlessness, anger, mistrust, natural peace, natural intellect, natural happiness?

    You mean, complete lack of evidence of a God? No, if I had some evidence, I would no longer have that lack. I think you’re making ignorant assumptions here.

    Would you in God in FAITH honestly and with fervency re-approach your circumstances, questions and issues that brought you here to then truly obtain answers from God?

    Nope. Done that. It did nothing for me. This time I’m going where the evidence leads.

    Now either post links to your documents, admit that you’re a liar, or stop posting.

  • 83. AwesomeJesus  |  November 1, 2009 at 9:13 am

    It has been said to you evidence is befoe you in FAITH.

    Concerning chief shoefoot and his tribe take a look here at the info below and also look at any other web or foot research you want carrier yourself. This informartion happens to be at your figure tips for this one.

    Calling my a liar does not make me one – I’ve worked in NYC with some of the hardest people and have fought anger spirits and have kept the peace – the bible says above keep the peace between the brothern but I also try with those that are not – be patient the other info is coming.

    “I am called Shoefoot. With my brother-in-Law and Mark I worked on this book. It is truth not lies. While we were suffering terribly the Supreme Being sent his people to us. We learned of His love. Because of His love, we now love. We live in peace. We no longer are shooting each other. We are no longer stealing women. We are alive. We have many children. They are alive. You (who say, “leave them alone”) don’t know anything about the Yanomamö. You have never come here.
    Although we are dying out, “that’s OK” you say. Without seeing us, don’t be lying about our condition. You are living well, so don’t just want that for yourself, and try to keep us suffering. Stop lying. That is showing your contempt for our suffering. You have no idea how we lived. If you could come to my jungle I would really discuss this with you, but you are far away. I believe if you could really see how my people suffer you would not talk like this. So don’t live your good life far away and talk about something you know nothing about. Just stay quite over there. Although you are far away, don’t try to make us angry, and if you ever do come to my land, don’t talk like this, because if the Yanomamö hear you say this, they will fight you. If the ones that are dying out hear you talk like this, they are going to believe you are mocking us and get angry. Just keep your thoughts to yourself. I am a leader in my village. I am one whose life has been changed. ”

    Dictated to Michael Dawson by Shoefoot (Original Yanomamo text available from Island Lake Press on request)
    Translated by Michael Dawson (Michael Dawson was born and raised in a Yanomamo village. He learned English when he went away to school at age seven.)
    Shoefoot has a long-standing invitation for a public dialogue with any member of the academic community on the topic, “Leave Them Alone.” His invitation has not yet been accepted.

  • 84. AwesomeJesus  |  November 1, 2009 at 10:06 am

    Over the years I’ve known of many many testimoies/miracles where poeple embelish for some the testimony has not been true and for others although they embelisshed the testimony/miracle was true.

    Over the years I’ve known of many many testimonies/miracles where people embellish – for some the testimony/miracle has not been true and for others although they embellished the testimony/miracle was true.

    I was a kid during Kathern Kuhlman meetings. I can not attest to anything except a memory of someone that seemed to me to be like an angel of the Lord.

    I can however attest to my earthly Father. My father was a minister who was used by God for many many healings and miracles. I knew his character for God and his character was honesty and truth with out compromise. People were healed of AIDs, Cancer, Limbs growing out – many ailments and conditions healed as well as lives made more prosperous by the word of God.

    As my father was older he developed diabetes and poor circulation. His legs were amputated but he still ministered and prayed for people and people were still blessed and healed, but no healing was given to him. I was not living for God at the time of his sickness so I asked my mother who was a minister as well – “what has been the course of those God has used so mightily, do they succumb to ailments” she did not answer that I can remember. She actually died before he died and she died of cancer.
    I took my father to a Benny Hinn meeting at the request of one of my sisters – I was still not living for God. While there nothing happened for my father yet up on stage Mr. Hinn was displaying the power of God by waving his hand and many of the ministers were falling out on the floor. I got highly upset and thought heres my Father old yet was a minister of God and Mr Hinn was not calling out for him to be healed. If he has so much power up there why isn’t he being directed to my Father and all of the other wheel chair people. It made me really question Hinn and God.

    With in the past ten years I have since got the answers to my questions. I have asked no body but God but he has had his word, himself and others through normal preaching and teaching bring answers to me.

    Please know I asked the pastor of the other church for the documentation concerning the South American women.

  • 85. BigHouse  |  November 1, 2009 at 10:59 am

    “It has been said to you evidence is befoe you in FAITH. ”

    I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

  • 86. Quester  |  November 1, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    Sorry, AJ, but you’ve got nothing trustworthy to offer. Feel free to be on your way.

  • 87. The myth of the virgin birth of Jesus « de-conversion  |  November 1, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    [...] this blog, addressing Biblical myths. HeIsSailing wrote on several myths of the Bible including the Leviathan, the creation story, the tower of Babel, the origins of languages, and the Crucifixion [...]

  • 88. Blasphemy  |  January 29, 2010 at 10:31 am

    LIES
    ALL LIES

  • 89. Blasphemy  |  January 29, 2010 at 10:32 am

    YOUR
    GOD
    IS
    A
    LIE

  • 90. Joe  |  January 29, 2010 at 12:22 pm

    Blasphemy—-

    Your intriguing use of CAPS and intelligent message have convinced me, I’ve been wrong all along. Especially, putting the spaces inbetween the words in post 89 was brilliant. I had never thought of it that way before, Thanks,

  • 91. DSimon  |  January 29, 2010 at 7:20 pm

    Blasphemy, please get off my side. You’re embarassing me.

  • 92. Teen Masturbation Porn  |  February 8, 2012 at 7:57 am

    Wow, fantastic blog format! How long have you been blogging for? you make running a blog glance easy. The full look of your web site is magnificent, as well as the content material!

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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