Comments on: By the way, who are the de-cons? http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/ Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians...... Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:00:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Convenient categories: The “real reasons” de-cons left the faith « de-conversion http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-17648 Convenient categories: The “real reasons” de-cons left the faith « de-conversion Thu, 27 Mar 2008 04:50:41 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-17648 [...] we shoot down their reasons, thus inconveniencing them with the need to come up with others. So we de-cons have compiled a list from which one can simply select. We hope this will save wear and tear (on the [...] [...] we shoot down their reasons, thus inconveniencing them with the need to come up with others. So we de-cons have compiled a list from which one can simply select. We hope this will save wear and tear (on the [...]

]]> By: kermittheagnostic http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-11736 kermittheagnostic Sun, 02 Dec 2007 06:07:09 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-11736 Interesting points. I would agree with you on most except that extra step you take. That step to a higher power, which I would argue is unnecessary. I like this "life force" as you put it. And I do think we need to be positive in life and be good to each other. However I do not agree that the ONLY relief is to believe in a life force that is greater than oneself. True relief only comes from understanding that we rise above evil and love each other because it simply makes sense to. Attributing this to an unexplainable power only allows for us to excuse ourselves when we do evil because we did not give ourselves credit for being able to figure out right from wrong on our own. To believe that the only thing driving us to be moral is a higher power is to relieve ourselves of the responsibility of justifying our actions. We do have the capability on our own of being the wonderful creatures we say only God could create. Once we realize this the responsibility of being moral is inexcusably ours. In other words, doing good is much more apt to be consistently done when we understand that it makes sense to us to do so and not just because someone else told us so. If you feel there is a "life force" why call it Jesus or Buddha or God? Why not just say, "I feel a life force that is good." The reason religious people get into problems is that they take this feeling and make it into something it is not. Suddenly they are saying there is a God and they know what happens after you die and when the world is gonna end and what is right and what is wrong and who you should vote for! This is taking the "life force" too far I think! -Kermit Interesting points. I would agree with you on most except that extra step you take. That step to a higher power, which I would argue is unnecessary.

I like this “life force” as you put it. And I do think we need to be positive in life and be good to each other. However I do not agree that the ONLY relief is to believe in a life force that is greater than oneself. True relief only comes from understanding that we rise above evil and love each other because it simply makes sense to. Attributing this to an unexplainable power only allows for us to excuse ourselves when we do evil because we did not give ourselves credit for being able to figure out right from wrong on our own. To believe that the only thing driving us to be moral is a higher power is to relieve ourselves of the responsibility of justifying our actions. We do have the capability on our own of being the wonderful creatures we say only God could create. Once we realize this the responsibility of being moral is inexcusably ours. In other words, doing good is much more apt to be consistently done when we understand that it makes sense to us to do so and not just because someone else told us so.

If you feel there is a “life force” why call it Jesus or Buddha or God? Why not just say, “I feel a life force that is good.” The reason religious people get into problems is that they take this feeling and make it into something it is not. Suddenly they are saying there is a God and they know what happens after you die and when the world is gonna end and what is right and what is wrong and who you should vote for! This is taking the “life force” too far I think!

-Kermit

]]> By: sugarmonkey http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-11703 sugarmonkey Sat, 01 Dec 2007 22:15:12 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-11703 I think that faith is a belief in a life force, whether that is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., or the positive energies. Christ is a name for the positive life force, just like Buddha, etc. He is an incarnation, or forgive me, a METAPHOR for living positive and for the building up of life. I believe in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which also can be Buddha, or anyone or anything else....because that is the spirit that creates hope and life. This Spirit exists. The faith of the churches that looks at sin, is correct - because the manner of sin is to do harm and destroy, whether through malicious thoughts, words or actions that disparage others and corrupt the disparager. Sin feeds on itself until it becomes all consuming. The only relief is to believe in some positive life force that is greater than oneself and presses you to do other positive things. The dusty beliefs of some dying churches that believe in the literal interpetation of the Bible, have missed the point, in my opinion. Faith is about life - and being uplifted. If they disparage others for not believing in the literal truth of the Bible, than they have a false faith because one cannot be judgemental. I think that faith is a belief in a life force, whether that is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., or the positive energies. Christ is a name for the positive life force, just like Buddha, etc. He is an
incarnation, or forgive me, a METAPHOR for living positive and for the building up of life.
I believe in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which also can be Buddha, or anyone or anything else….because that is the spirit that creates hope and life. This Spirit exists.
The faith of the churches that looks at sin, is correct - because the manner of sin is to do harm and destroy, whether through malicious thoughts, words or actions that disparage others and corrupt the disparager. Sin feeds on itself until it becomes all consuming.
The only relief is to believe in some positive life force that is greater than oneself and presses you to do other positive things. The dusty beliefs of some dying churches that believe in the literal interpetation of the Bible, have missed the point, in my opinion. Faith is about life - and being uplifted.
If they disparage others for not believing in the literal truth of the Bible, than they have a false faith because one cannot be judgemental.

]]> By: loopyloo350 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9591 loopyloo350 Sat, 03 Nov 2007 14:15:08 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9591 faith without works is dead, belief alone gets you nowhere. To believe in the unbelieveable is to dream. To dream is to hope, grow, learn and finally to trust is to have faith. faith without works is dead, belief alone gets you nowhere. To believe in the unbelieveable is to dream. To dream is to hope, grow, learn and finally to trust is to have faith.

]]> By: KermitTheAgnostic http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9555 KermitTheAgnostic Fri, 02 Nov 2007 21:59:24 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9555 Trust nothing. Believe nothing. Be prepared to be wrong. Analyze what IS and accept, with doubt, only what is highly probable and demonstratable. There is no reason to just believe based on faith. Yes ThinkingApe! Putting things in boxes is exactly what the human brain is designed to do. We need to make sense of the world in order to deal with it. Language is a direct extension of this, as is religion. However we need to show restraint because it simply is not the case that just believing something makes it so. We get confused because we are taught things like, just believe it and it will happen. While this can be a powerful motivator, as when a football player wants to win a game - belief that he will helps, he knows that it is entirely possible that he won't. But he does not give up the belief because that keeps him going. And he does not stop training because he knows inside that belief is not enough. For this reason it is important for us to realize that belief alone is not enough with religion either. Too many have used this mistake in thinking to support religion. We simply should only accept what is highly probable and demonstratable. Yes, we can say, “I hope there is a God” or, “I hope there is a heaven.” But to use faith alone to support a belief has no use at all. Because then any crazy idea or God can be believed in because of belief alone. - I wonder if I just wrote that. Trust nothing. Believe nothing. Be prepared to be wrong.

Analyze what IS and accept, with doubt, only what is highly probable and demonstratable. There is no reason to just believe based on faith.

Yes ThinkingApe! Putting things in boxes is exactly what the human brain is designed to do. We need to make sense of the world in order to deal with it. Language is a direct extension of this, as is religion.

However we need to show restraint because it simply is not the case that just believing something makes it so. We get confused because we are taught things like, just believe it and it will happen. While this can be a powerful motivator, as when a football player wants to win a game - belief that he will helps, he knows that it is entirely possible that he won’t. But he does not give up the belief because that keeps him going. And he does not stop training because he knows inside that belief is not enough.

For this reason it is important for us to realize that belief alone is not enough with religion either. Too many have used this mistake in thinking to support religion. We simply should only accept what is highly probable and demonstratable. Yes, we can say, “I hope there is a God” or, “I hope there is a heaven.” But to use faith alone to support a belief has no use at all. Because then any crazy idea or God can be believed in because of belief alone.

- I wonder if I just wrote that.

]]> By: loopyloo350 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9540 loopyloo350 Fri, 02 Nov 2007 14:58:38 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9540 thinking ape: point well taken and I go back to something I said elsewhere, to take the bible as whole truth and whole history is to do a disservice not only to ourselves but to truth. Perhaps the simple fact is that most faith is based on hope and not knowledge. Perhaps the quest for knowledge is what gives us hope. Perhaps your idea of de-conversion is not from lack of faith so much as it is distrust. The hypocricsy that I have seen so many fall prey to has often made me wonder that anyone has faith. thinking ape: point well taken and I go back to something I said elsewhere, to take the bible as whole truth and whole history is to do a disservice not only to ourselves but to truth. Perhaps the simple fact is that most faith is based on hope and not knowledge. Perhaps the quest for knowledge is what gives us hope. Perhaps your idea of de-conversion is not from lack of faith so much as it is distrust. The hypocricsy that I have seen so many fall prey to has often made me wonder that anyone has faith.

]]> By: Why do unbelievers care so much about belief? « de-conversion http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9518 Why do unbelievers care so much about belief? « de-conversion Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:52:14 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9518 [...] most of the people on this blog, as fits a blog about de-conversion, are de-converts, and so they may have other reasons for thinking about this. They may live in societies that demand [...] [...] most of the people on this blog, as fits a blog about de-conversion, are de-converts, and so they may have other reasons for thinking about this. They may live in societies that demand [...]

]]> By: Thinking Ape http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9506 Thinking Ape Thu, 01 Nov 2007 16:29:14 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9506 Loopy, I think the majority of the de-converts here are past considering "Christianity" as something limited to the "organized" church - although what does it mean to be "organized"? Is three people not an organization? Is the Bible not an organization of certain texts? Is not the doctrines that make up the "belief in God and Christ" a result of organization? I'm not trying to pick, I know what you mean by organized religion. I just wonder how valid that statement really is. Loopy, I think the majority of the de-converts here are past considering “Christianity” as something limited to the “organized” church - although what does it mean to be “organized”? Is three people not an organization? Is the Bible not an organization of certain texts? Is not the doctrines that make up the “belief in God and Christ” a result of organization?
I’m not trying to pick, I know what you mean by organized religion. I just wonder how valid that statement really is.

]]> By: loopyloo350 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9501 loopyloo350 Thu, 01 Nov 2007 13:31:43 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9501 Curious? How do you define a Christian? If you define it as a belief in God and Christ, then I am Christian. If you base it on attending an organized Church, well, that is a different story. Do you think God really cares as long as you try your best to do as he asks? With the coming of Christ all people were made a part of Gods kingdom. "Wherefore three or more of you are gathered in my name, that is where my church is." If you define it that way, here we are, three or more, in God's name. Nowhere there does it say we all have to be believers. How does God answer questions? What profit to be given everything and earn nothing? loopyloo Curious? How do you define a Christian? If you define it as a belief in God and Christ, then I am Christian. If you base it on attending an organized Church, well, that is a different story. Do you think God really cares as long as you try your best to do as he asks? With the coming of Christ all people were made a part of Gods kingdom. “Wherefore three or more of you are gathered in my name, that is where my church is.” If you define it that way, here we are, three or more, in God’s name. Nowhere there does it say we all have to be believers. How does God answer questions? What profit to be given everything and earn nothing? loopyloo

]]> By: Lorena http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9498 Lorena Thu, 01 Nov 2007 03:02:38 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/10/28/by-the-way-who-are-the-de-cons/#comment-9498 Missfossey wrote: Rather than this string of comments being a mode of discussion, it has become tinged with snide comments. I can almost hear the snickers behind some of the words we have begun to say. I desire that all people find and keep their faith out of love, not because I have all the answers. Lorena respond: The answers are actually pretty mild. I am surprised at the patience the de-converts on this blog have toward the ignorant, naive comments left by Christians. You guys are showing enormous patience. Missfossey wrote:
Rather than this string of comments being a mode of discussion, it has become tinged with snide comments. I can almost hear the snickers behind some of the words we have begun to say. I desire that all people find and keep their faith out of love, not because I have all the answers.

Lorena respond:
The answers are actually pretty mild. I am surprised at the patience the de-converts on this blog have toward the ignorant, naive comments left by Christians. You guys are showing enormous patience.

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