de-conversion

56 Comments Add your own

• 1. marymc  |  October 28, 2007 at 3:11 pm

  Just stumbled upon this blog, and Wow. The last few lines of this really hit home. I fought hard against loosing my faith, I wanted to believe. But what I read, just reinforced my doubts, especially when I read or talked to christian sources.

• 2. marie  |  October 28, 2007 at 3:24 pm

  great post!!!

  I think the world needs to learn about us. Christians make so many assumptions, assumptions I made as a Christian for the fitst 22 years of my life. Being a de-convert can be a very lonely existence–especially when all of your close friends and family are strong christians.

  If God is real, then I believe we are innocent victims of his practice of hardening hearts.

• 3. loopyloo350  |  October 28, 2007 at 3:57 pm

  I understand what you are feeling believe it or not, I have been on both sides more than once. I was always looking for answers. I went to almost every branch of church there is in my area. From “Assembly of God”, Seventh Day Adventist”, Jehovah’s Witness”, Baptist, Church of Christ, Presbyrtarian, Methodist. Truthfully except for Catholic, and I don’t really know why I didn’t try that. I was always disappointed. I went for many years even denying there was a God. I blamed God because my middle son was mentally retarded. But always ther was a spirit inside me that was searching for answers. I would find myself picking up my Bible and discussing it with others and always came back to the phrase “wherefore three or more of you are gathered in my name is my church” I believe that we don’t need someone else to tell us how to believe or even how to act.. I believe, except for a few unfortunate individuals, we all really know what God wants. It is written in our DNA if you will, and if we follow our hearts and try to do the best we can, we are doing God’s will. We don’t have to attend some fancy church, or have someone interpret the Bible for us, we just have to “seek and ye shall find’. And as for Muslims or Hindu or any other sect out there, God is the only one who can say if they are right or wrong, just as he is the only one in the end who judges us all. If you are happy with the choices you make, then they are the right choices for you. I feel that this is what God wants from me, but I am not out to justify my faith or to change any minds. This is a benefit to me and maybe it will help someone else. To think that God wants perfection is a myth if you think about it, he didn’t chose perfection when he had the chance, he chose imperfection instead. If you garden, do you ever watch what the birds leave for you or do you pull all your weeds?

• 4. ollie  |  October 28, 2007 at 7:06 pm

  My story is slightly different. My journey away from “faith” was an evolution of sorts.

  It started when I read the Bible and saw how full of superstition and downright immorality it was (e. g., approval of mass murder in Joshua)

  Then, in mass, I began to ask myself “do I really believe that?” In all honesty, I had started to interpret all of the miracles as being symbolic; I realized that I really didn’t believe them.

  There was no “please make me believe” anguish; I began to see religion as a relic of our superstitious past.

• 5. kermittheagnostic  |  October 28, 2007 at 9:58 pm

  I grew up in a Christian home with a very liberal preacher father and amazing mother. I was lucky in that they understood my questioning and eventual total rejection of religion. It is nice to hear stories from others.

  People ask me why I get so worked up about all this and I say because I see how limiting religion can be. I rejoice and am excited by the the statement “I don’t know!” Why make up stories about what we don’t know? Why not just leave it at that and continue to research this amazing journey we find ourselves in? To me it is much more exciting and wonderful to be ready and waiting the truths of our existence that science is discovering daily. Rejoice in the reality of accepting the fact that we do not know all the answers and anticipate with a child’s excitement the unfolding of this amazing existence.

  Life for a me is not the life a dreadful lost soul but rather that of an awakened and honest, open human who does good in the world because THEY believe it is the right thing NOT because of fear. The world is a wonderful place and we are only just beginning to realize what possibilities there are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Be honest with yourself. Be OK with saying, “I don’t know.”

• 6. swallowfeather  |  October 28, 2007 at 10:18 pm

  I was almost a de-con. I shouldn’t say too much here b/c I don’t want to offend or start controversy and I know how it feels, and I know all the jerks that try to brow-beat you “back into the fold.” I could say I’m a Christian in spite of what Christians are like, except… they’re not the only kind I met.

  Guess I just want to say there’s also us out there. I went all the way. A lot of religion and a lot of churches and the way organized Christianity is run is just plain toxic, and I saw that. I saw they were telling me doubt was a sin because they were afraid of it, because pseudo-moral peer pressure was the only way they knew to keep me “inside”. I refused to use the intellectual dodges they use. I refused to force myself through guilt to keep believing. I just tried to keep the question open till I knew the answer even though that hurt like hell. (A little different from being agnostic… I know how good “I don’t know” can be and honestly I don’t know a whole lot of stuff.) And if I was to tell you why I believe it would take too long and probably not make sense to you, OK maybe I’m just worried about pushing stuff on you that you don’t wanna hear.

  Just saying I’m out there too I guess and I don’t know 100% of how you feel but I’ve definitely felt some of it.

• 7. missfossey  |  October 28, 2007 at 10:24 pm

  How can you journey away from faith? Because the church failed you? Because science and ‘intelligence’ said you were wrong?

  Christianity is not a mythology or a fanciful way to parade through life. It is based on evidence. Jesus showed his wounds to the disciples, Thomas put his hand into the Lord’s wounds.

  Even faith that is had for years and years can still be weak. The Bible says that there will come a day when men will turn away from the truth. You are walking in a prophesy it seems.

  I am curious… was it the church that failed you? Was it your leaders? I hope with everything that the actions of men and the repercussions of them were enough to pull you away from the living god. Do you feel God failed you? “All things will be worked together for good…” “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

  Perhaps your faith became too much? The pain or discomfort of submitting to the Lord is not the result of the ways and effect of God in our lives, it is the falling away of the chaff, the unnecessary in our lives; if you have given up and fallen distant from God, you will find yourself only filling that place once filled by Him with material things that will someday have no meaning.

  Jesus was himself was beaten, persecuted, and crucified, all the while before aware of the fate to become him. He never wavered.

  You read and asked questions? You asked and read in the wrong places. You cried out to God, but with doubt. Deep calls unto deep, but you had already swam to the shallow end expecting God to draw you out.

  Remember that the door back in is always open.

• 8. swallowfeather  |  October 28, 2007 at 10:38 pm

  Oh and I would like to share the totally irrelevant fact that I detest Bush.

• 9. Sage  |  October 28, 2007 at 10:43 pm

  Well said, Miss Fossey. Faith is a choice but it doesn’t have to be uninformed one. Faith is blind but its basis is in what can be seen, both with the eyes and the heart. Will you read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (of course), just one more time, for old time’s sake? And how about the gospel of John, while you’re at it? Forgetting all the hypocrisy in the church, in humanity itself, will you at least give your first love one last chance by going back to basics? Or…you could do it from a skeptic’s vantage point and try to deconstruct it for us still deluded believers

• 10. karen  |  October 28, 2007 at 11:12 pm

  When I first saw this thread title, I misread it as, “Who are the neo-cons” and thought it was political!

  Thanks for doing this, Leo. I think/hope it helps to explain where many of us are coming from. Perhaps this will help commentors who drop by see what we are/were.

  Ollie - were you deconverted from a fundamentalist or a moderate or liberal religious background? Just curious.

• 11. mangimosbi  |  October 28, 2007 at 11:33 pm

  I have been a backslider for 4 - 5 years now but I cannot begin to imagine life without God. Just knowing He is there helps to explain circumstances in my life and it helps me to rationalise my own extistence.

  You are all very brave.

  For those with a scientific bent

  http://www.reasons.org/

• 12. ESVA  |  October 29, 2007 at 12:03 am

  No matter how clearly a de-convert tries to explain his or her reason for rejecting Christian faith, there are some Christians who just don’t seem to get it. We’ve already seen a couple of them on this thread.

  Many people de-convert because Christian doctrine does not make sense to them anymore. Some may leave because of hypocrisy or other hurts, but most de-conversons are based primarily on rational examination of the content of their faith. We’ve been around long enough to know that we can’t judge the entire church on the basis of the hurtful actions of a few. I think we could all affirm that most of the Christians we know are admirable people. Please don’t insult us by suggesting we’re little more than petulant children who are upset because a church leader didn’t give us our way.

  Also, please don’t quote the bible at us, as if we’ve never read it. Believe it or not, we’re familiar with the gospel of John, and we know all about Jesus showing his scars to Thomas. We also know that John probably didn’t write the books credited to him and that the story of Doubting Thomas probably didn’t happen. Believe it or not, most of what Christians assert to be historical faith is nothing of the sort. You see, most of us have read, in addition to the bible, church history, writings of church fathers, commentaries, etc., etc., etc.

  By the way, as much as I like this post, I think the site’s banner makes it pretty clear who we are. As usual, many of the Christians who stumble in here appear to be seeing only what they want to see, not what is actually there.

• 13. Yueheng  |  October 29, 2007 at 12:12 am

  missfossey wrote:

  You read and asked questions? You asked and read in the wrong places.

  This is such an incredibly un-compassionate and dismissive statement. It arrogantly reduces the existential journey and search for truth of so many de-cons into a simple category - “Wrong.”

  But then again, when one believes in a loving God who can order the mass-murder of children and who will eternally torture those who do not subscribe to certain doctrines,standards of right and wrong that are contrary to human logic can be expected. ..

• 14. Suse A Doodle  |  October 29, 2007 at 12:44 am

  WordPress put this blog on the front page so that brought me here. It takes courage to admit to losing faith or finding the faith you had so hollow that you can no longer embrace it.

  I’ve not gotten that deep into my decent out of Christianity as a religion. I came close. I finally cried out “If “THEY” are right, and all this legalism I see around me is what it is to be a Christian, I’m sorry. I love You and Your Son, but I’m going off to become a Buddhist nun. I can’t live that life!”

  But I was desperate to not go do that. I didn’t want to walk away from what I knew as a four year-old — God loves me and I loved Him back, then. Through the years, though, the legalisms, the pressures to conform, the religiosity and the manipulations (like, using guilt and fear to keep me “in line” and “inside” their fold), got to be too much and they overwhelmed that belief and understanding of “God is Love.” He became a type of Zeus or Thor sitting up in the sky somewhere just waiting to zap me if I did something “wrong.”

  Maybe because I really didn’t want to walk away, I discovered that what I’d come to “know about Him” was not the same as “knowing Him.” Now, I don’t have it all figured out, but I do know that I can safely walk away from those teachings that I find hollow without needing to walk away from Him.

  I don’t want to preach. I’m just saying that I can (somewhat) understand what leads a person to “de-convert.” I almost did the same.

  Besides the legalism, there was a huge contradiction that I saw. Jesus said He came to bring Life more abundant, and to bring Joy to our lives. I never saw it or felt it. I couldn’t share the gospel because it was really handing someone a set of shackles — a long list of rules that make life miserable.

  When I threatened to become a Buddhist nun, I decided to embrace the opposite — the promise of life and joy and mercy over rules. While it gave me freedom, it was so contrary to the teachings of the CEIP where I grew up, I was afraid to share this gospel. What if I was deluded or just flat wrong? How dare I drag another into my delusion? I had come to this conclusion on my own, without the fellowship or input of other Christians; chances were I was deluded and had led myself astray. But I liked this delusion — that God and the gospel are all about love, mercy and not about me or my behavior at all. It’s all about Him and what He has done and continues to do.

  A CEIP is a Conservative, Evangelical, Independent (withdrew from its Association) Protestant Church. They would accuse me of heresy and probably start the practice of Shunning if they knew how far I have moved from their version of “the truth.” Yet, I have discovered I am not alone in my beliefs — maybe I arrived there alone but I’m not alone anymore.

  In a way I am a “de-convert” — from the organized, religious establishment definition of Christian. And I am seeking a different word to use to describe my faith. “Christian” seems to be mis-defined from both the outside AND the inside.

  The outside sees the very vocal CE(I)Ps and sees their Pharisaical attitudes and actions and rejects Christ. The inside sees the calls to righteousness as a command rather than as the proof of how impossible it is to “measure up” and thus misses the complete radical nature of God’s mercy, love and grace — the He requires nothing more than trust — and therefore, in their zeal to “measure up” they reject the free gift.

  I am a de-convert from a faith that is not a faith but a works religion. And I am a convert to “new” view — God IS Love, and He wants me to enjoy life, abundant, without the shackles of Law.

  As for the comment about rejecting the violence of the Bible — the wars and other hard things to understand: I recently heard something interesting. The speaker said he believed the Bible is true because it does not hide the flaws - like those instances. And he went on to say, he really believes that people misunderstood what they thought God was telling them to do; that it could not have been God’s command to go kill everyone in the cities — because the eternal truth is that God is Love. I’m not saying it as clearly as he did and it would take me too long to explain it. But, the idea that those who the claim God spoke to them in the OT, may have misunderstood His words, had not occurred to me before. It does not make the events described any less disturbing, but it maybe helps a little to see it as human in nature and not God’s command.

  I’m sorry, I did say I didn’t want to preach and here this “comment” ended up being far too long. It was a long way for me to go to say “I can feel your pain.” I wish I could ease it and help you but I am a mere mortal and quite limited in my abilities in that area.

• 15. Samanthamj  |  October 29, 2007 at 1:54 am

  My de-conversion began earlier than many of those here (thanks to my atheist father and very religious mother and all that that entailed). and, yes, I AM *thankful* for this - because I believe that even if I didn’t come from my background, that I still would have eventually come to the same conclusions. I probably just would have just spent many more years trying to have faith, and had a harder time breaking away from it - as many here did.

  I still spent my first 17 years growing up very religious and active in the church. I then spent years after that struggling to come to terms with, and understand what it is that I did, and did not, believe. I’m still struggling a bit. I have chrisitian friends who think I just gave up on God too early, because of my background. They don’t seem to get that I did once truly believe, and did try to keep believing… but, just couldn’t. It’s even more difficult for them to greasp the concept that eventually, I became glad that I couldn’t… and have no desire to go back.

  I am thankful that I didn’t have to go through as much as many of you here did on your paths to deconversion. I am also thankful for this website and all the stories of the various deconverts.

  Like EVSA mentioned - I also don’t see how anyone can know some of your backgrounds (and just how active you were in your churches and just how deep you do know the bible and history around it, etc.), - and yet they still quote bible verses and make comments to the effect that you just didn’t have *enough* faith, or look in the right places, etc. ?? In a warped way, it makes me feel better that they even do it to you, though (and not just to me LOL ). I guess, you have to give them all an “A” for effort… (or is that for “annoying”?? ; )

  ~smj

• 16. Oxysmoron  |  October 29, 2007 at 2:39 am

  Hi there!

  Who shall give good advice to you… for God does tell us to come and reason with Him; not man/woman.

  Logic does not = Faith; yet we tend to have faith in our Logic.

  Religion does not = God; yet we associate God with Religion.

  Both are like oxymorons to me.

  We as people in our zeal {for whatever it may be} seem to allow others to yoke us like oxen, and work us religiously to death. All the while saying how much they love us (to death) and how much good we are doing for the community and how we find favor in the sight of God. The term ‘christian’ is no longer defined by the word Christ. There are so many defining terms for the broad ideas of christianity; thus christian no longer mimicks Christ.

  Remember? It was the so called ‘christians’ who murdered true believers in Jesus, based upon those who followed Him and not RELIGION. What I see in our society today is a slow progression of Faith destroyers; by the use of Religion. These people disguise themselves as ‘christians’, but as you have indicated here you have found yourselves De-tatched, De-connected, De-programed, De-nounced and several other De’s. Smile.

  Could it be possible that this move of De-compartmentalization is actually a move of God on your behalf?

  Don’t get me wrong… I still believe Jesus is the One and only way, I just believe God tends to take us out from under that HEAVY YOKE and put us in another place (not another religion) in order to get our attention.

  His yoke is suppose to be easy and His burden is suppose to be light… it is people who yoke us down and weigh heavily upon us; not God.

  By the way, I stopped calling myself christian due to the confusion of what people define christianity today.

  I read your other journal on “ok, ok, maybe I never believed” and thought to myself… now who on earth has messed with the person’s mind? ” most likely well intended christians who wish to persuade you… you could have never been a christian to begin with?

  Boy, are we pressumptuous people! Did they then try to save your soul? My goodness.

  Believe it or not, I actually like reading what others have to say on this subject matter. No pretenses here are there? Appreciate the people who come here and just lay out their thoughts.

  Oddly enough, all of this sort of scares me and makes me realize I need to stay close to the Lord all the more.

  Will return for more reading.

• 17. missfossey  |  October 29, 2007 at 10:23 am

  “But then again, when one believes in a loving God who can order the mass-murder of children and who will eternally torture those who do not subscribe to certain doctrines,standards of right and wrong that are contrary to human logic can be expected. ..”

  Forgive me if I came accross insensitive. I merely meant that there is much historical documentation that supports our faith, there are intelligent scientists who support faith based knowledge.

  God does not eternally damn anyone for differences of standards. The truth is this, who ever belives in him shall have eternal life. We all have ready it, as was said. So where then is the basis for stumbling over doctrine and standards?

  God killing children? I hardly even have words to describe how ridiculous that is. Who fights harder against abortion than the church? Who care more for sick children than the church? Rather our entire world is too busy saving trees, oil, and the freedom say or do anything anywhere. That is the genocide, that is the tragedy.

  Men have killed children, and God has only welcomed them as his father in heaven.

• 18. the de-cons « someo&hellip  |  October 29, 2007 at 10:28 am

  [...] 29th, 2007 by missfossey This post about ‘de-cons’ of course frustrated me to no end. I myself left comments which received rebuttle. I encourage [...]

• 19. Anonymous  |  October 29, 2007 at 11:20 am

  It is so funny to see how religious followers assume we are like lost little sheep and that they are the happy ones safe with the group. Actually it is quite the opposite for me. Until you seriously question all religion and understand why it is rationally absurd you will not know the true joy of existing in a wondrous world full of “I don’t knows” and taking on the responsibility to make it better because YOU, yes YOU want it to be so. If there is a God then he most assuredly wants individuals with him that use their brains and don’t just follow something because it sounds nice or it makes them happy. He wants bold, bright thinkers that truly care about those around them because they understand the value in it not because they a scared to go to Hell!

  Is it not entirely possible that God, if he exists, is using religion as a test and those that follow it have failed?

• 20. KermitTheAgnostic  |  October 29, 2007 at 11:21 am

  It is so funny to see how religious followers assume we are like lost little sheep and that they are the happy ones safe with the group. Actually it is quite the opposite for me. Until you seriously question all religion and understand why it is rationally absurd you will not know the true joy of existing in a wondrous world full of “I don’t knows” and taking on the responsibility to make it better because YOU, yes YOU want it to be so. If there is a God then he most assuredly wants individuals with him that use their brains and don’t just follow something because it sounds nice or it makes them happy. He wants bold, bright thinkers that truly care about those around them because they understand the value in it not because they a scared to go to Hell!

  Is it not entirely possible that God, if he exists, is using religion as a test and those that follow it have failed?

• 21. KermitTheAgnostic  |  October 29, 2007 at 11:58 am

  Oxysmoron,

  You said:

  “Logic does not = Faith; yet we tend to have faith in our Logic.”

  I would argue with this statement. We do not have faith in our logic. We use logic not because we have faith, or belief without reason, in it rather we use logic because it works. If it did not then we would not use it. If it were to stop working we would abandon it which is completely the opposite of what one does with faith. Belief in something based on faith continues regardless of the logic of it. We saw this with Copernicus and the orbit of the planets and we see it today with evolution.

• 22. Lyndon  |  October 29, 2007 at 12:07 pm

  You might also add that many of us were Pastors too. Shocking, I’m sure, but life happens. My journey began with liberal arts college studies in Christianity. The magic seems to disappear when you see the strings behind the curtain.

  Disallusionment followed during 9 years of pastoral ministry. Frustration and burn out made dropping off the grid much easier. I tinkered. I tried. I made another effort but to no avail.

  I go with my wife and kids to a liberal mainstream church downtown a few times a month and enjoy it mostly for what it’s not. I can sit through the service without becoming ill. I find some truth and beauty in what they do and appreciate the spirit in which they do it.

  That’s the short version but my story nonetheless. You are right. The more you search for answers the further it drives you away. I’m not angry anymore, just indifferent. If it helps some to sleep at night, more power to them. Just don’t try to cram it down everyone’s throats. I believe there is truth and beauty in the universe to be discovered and cherished, but it’s harder and harder to find either in the local church.

• 23. LeoPardus  |  October 29, 2007 at 1:35 pm

  missfossey:

  >How can you journey away from faith?Because the church failed you?Because science and ‘intelligence’ said you were wrong?Christianity is not a mythology or a fanciful way to parade through life. It is based on evidence.Jesus showed his wounds to the disciples, Thomas put his hand into the Lord’s wounds.<

  Now THAT I’d be in for.

  Thomas said, “Unless I see the nail holes in his hands and feel the wound in his side, I will not believe.” Jesus showed up and said, “See my hands. Place your fingers in my side.” Then Thomas kneeled and said, “My Lord and my God.”

  If Jesus will do that again, I’ll believe. I’ll go convert half of India (that’s what tradition holds that Thomas did). Or Jesus could design a custom revelation that would clearly show Leo the reality of God. But the dead silence and total non-response is deafening.

  Please, don’t come back with “you wouldn’t believe if He did do a miracle” or “you can’t test God” or “………” Arguments aren’t going to carry the day. God will have to show up Himself. Not send armies of apologists to apologize for Him not showing up.

  > was it the church that failed you? Do you feel God failed you?Perhaps your faith became too much? if you have given up and fallen distant from God, you will find yourself only filling that place once filled by Him with material things that will someday have no meaning.You read and asked questions? You asked and read in the wrong places. You cried out to God, but with doubt. <

  Glad you were there to see it all. Why didn’t you pop out of your hiding place and point me to the right places? Since you don’t doubt, could you cry out to God for me?

• 24. LeoPardus  |  October 29, 2007 at 1:38 pm

  missfossey:

  God killing children? I hardly even have words to describe how ridiculous that is.
  Numbers 31
  2 Samuel 11,12
  The Noahic flood
  The first-born of Egypt
  many many more……..

  You were saying???

  Who fights harder against abortion than the church? Who care more for sick children than the church?

  Good for them. God could learn a thing or two.

  Don’t conflate God and the Church.

• 25. LeoPardus  |  October 29, 2007 at 1:41 pm

  Lyndon:

  I’m amazed more pastors don’t quit. Talk about working for ingrates.

• 26. noogatiger  |  October 29, 2007 at 2:26 pm

  Is Your Faith Arbitrary, or is it really based on verifiable facts?
  What is the Truth?

  Several years ago while still a Christian and out of town for a training session, I had a business associate ask me a question like this: Why do you believe what you believe?

  To tell you the truth I was stumped a little bit at the time to come up with a good explanation, other than, “I just did”, because I was taught it, I accepted it, a simple faith, and all of my family accepted it, I just had faith in it, and believed it since I was a child. Not a very convincing answer, I admit, but I never had any real reason to go any deeper.

  I simply believed. I believed that what I had been told, and taught, (since I was a small child), and what was preached to me was the absolute truth. Over the years, (I am 49 now), I never really had any reason to delve deep into any hard examination of the Bible, especially with any kind of skeptical eye. There was never any real reason for me to examine just exactly what it was that I believed, why I believed it, and if I should keep on believing it or not. As long as life went reasonably well, with only the normal hardships of work, bills, health issues, and family problems, which could be handled and kept within the scope of my worldview, then I simply stayed the course. I read scriptures, but usually as part of devotions, or guided Bible studies, or in Church or Sunday School, but I never sat down with this book to see for myself if it really was what I was taught that it was.

  I did question everything else in life however, I was not so trusting of anyone or anything, except in this one area, my faith. I was a “why” person about everything else except my religion. Sure there were times I had questions which were not answered to my satisfaction about the Bible, but I was in the middle of a whole family of believers, and in fact a whole community and a city full of believers, so I just filed it away under the “hard to understand” and went on, and forgot about it.

  However when I finally quit trying to prove to myself that the Bible was the Word of God, and started simply reading the book to see if it could be the so called Word of God, I suddenly saw a large and overwhelming list of problems in this book. There were a lot of things which I had ignored in the past. I saw that there are lots of errors, lots of contradictions, moral problems, inconsistencies, scientific problems, historical problems, failed prophecies, and things which were supposed to be prophecies that are not really prophecies. I had never seen these things before, mostly because I wanted to believe so badly that just to be honest, I had just ignored them.
  After going through five years of re-examination of everything in my faith and the scriptures and discovering that things just don’t happen in the real world like I had been led to believe, (especially prayer, or of God being in control), it was only then that I actually began to read for myself, and do studies myself about the Bible and why I should, or should not, hold on to any of the beliefs I had been taught. Suddenly most of them became indefensible.

  No other book in the world has spawned as much controversy, as many different denominations and different individual interpretations of itself, as the Bible has. (In fact every reader who reads it comes up with a different interpretation). However, people still hold to this book and believe it to be absolute truth, based on arbitrary faith, traditions, family teachings, their upbringing, the majesty of trees and mountains, blue sky, the power of tornadoes, warm fuzzy feelings in their hearts, or some authority figures who tell them what to believe.

  What proof do we have that this book is, or contains, the truth; absolutely none, there simply is no proof. In fact there is really is a lot more proof that it is not of devne origin.

  When it comes to faith, let’s suppose I tell you that something is an absolute truth, (whatever it may be), but that you will never have any way of checking it, or proving it, or verifying it, or testing it, or of even getting another reliable witnesses in testimony of it, nor will you be able to reconcile any contradictory statements I may make. If you then decide to believe it, then your faith in my truth is totally and completely arbitrary. You may even say that it makes you feel good to believe my truth, or in your heart you know that my statements are fact, but with no way to ever prove that it is indeed a fact, it will always be an arbitrary faith. So, Why spend so much time defending your faith, if in the end it comes down to an arbitrary decision to believe or not, simply based upon feelings, then just believe it and leave us alone? Biblical Apologetics is an oxymoron. People will say: “You either have faith that these are God’s words or you don’t”. They tell me that the rascally devil is just putting doubts in my head. However I say, that if you simply accept everything you are told in this world, on faith, then you will end up drinking the purple Kool-aid with Jim Jones, or someone like him, or living with the FLDS somewhere on the border of Utah and Arizona, being wife number 20 at age 14, to some 50 year old fart.

  You see, I can now accept the Bible as a work of polygamist who wrote about the God they made up, a work of genocidal men about the God they said told them to do this, or a work of slave owners about the God who they believe supported such a thing, and thus it puts into perspective the prejudices, the bigotry and the views about women in the Old Testament, and it helps to explain that these are not the morals of any true God, nor or they our morals today. I cannot, (any longer), defend all of the problems in the Bible if I am to still also accept that it is a perfect book by a perfect God about God and his dealings with humans. I can now see the convoluted theories and far fetched explanations and the great lengths people have to go to, to explain away the Bible problems, especially if they have any hope of holding on to their old preconceptions that this is a perfect word of God.

  Sure, I did have this Christian world view once upon I time, but the world just doesn’t fit into it anymore, and quite honestly neither does the Bible. I found out that my doubts about this stuff did not come from Satan, they came from an honest look at what was supposed to be the truth.

  The Bible, especially in the Old Testament, was written by men who were really for the most part not good people. They really weren’t, not even Lot or Abraham. The Old Testament writers were essentially; women hating, genocidal, slave owning, polygamists. I know it hurts to hear that, but if you look at these mens actions, they speak volumns about them. The New Testament writers didn’t have much better views about women, or slaves, so you never have to worry about why you can’t understand God’s word again, because God did not write this book. There is plenty of evidence for this, if you are willing to look objectively.

  As athiests and agnostics We still care about you and we do want you to have your best life right here and right now. You will see that those like us who can no longer logically defend the Bible, are not automatically immoral, or amoral and in fact many of us are very moral loving people. We are not seeking justification to do bad deeds, we will not steal your wives or your money, or your car, nor even kill your dogs and cats, any more than Christian people who do those very things themselves. We have found that morality comes from our parents, our extended family, our society, and mostly from within ourselves. Most people realize this, especially when they see all the bad things done by individuals who are supposed to be good moral Christian people.

  We have read the right books. We have studied the right things. We have just discovered that doubt is not the opposite of faith, but that TRUTH is.

• 27. swallowfeather  |  October 29, 2007 at 4:05 pm

  I have to agree with some of you; this comment

  “You read and asked questions? You asked and read in the wrong places.”
  

  was dismissive, and the inventory of the moral mistakes you all might have made in your searching (and which would of course account for your de-conversion!) was worse. I believe it’s possible to become honestly convinced that God’s not real; but unfortunately a lot of Christians don’t believe that, and it makes it REALLY hard for believers and non-believers to talk to each other. Sigh.

  However, I do not see how this comment

  If there is a God then he most assuredly wants individuals with him that use their brains [like me] and don’t just follow something because it sounds nice or it makes them happy [like these Christians]. He wants bold, bright thinkers [like me] that truly care about those around them because they understand the value in it not because they a scared to go to Hell [like these Christians]!”
  

  is any better.

  Words in brackets are mine. I feel justified in putting them in, considering how heavily they were implied.

  Glad you understand my faith so well, kermittheagnostic.

• 28. swallowfeather  |  October 29, 2007 at 4:06 pm

  Oh crap. Sorry. Got the html wrong again.

• 29. JP Manzi  |  October 29, 2007 at 4:48 pm

  “We prayed and even screamed and cried and pleaded in prayer.

  And heard silence, and felt the emptiness.”

  So powerful and so true, do you all remember what that felt like?

  I used to beat myself up over this thought of lonliness. Did I sin too much? Maybe the Calvinists are correct and I just so happen not to be a chosen one…..saddens me even to this day to look back.

• 30. loopyloo350  |  October 29, 2007 at 5:27 pm

  It’s awfully dismissive to think because we have faith we can’t possibly understand how you feel. If that were true there would be not need for an explanation because you would be so far beyond where you think we are that we could not even communicate.It’s like a loop, “I feel therefore I am, I am therefore I feel”.Nothing destroys something faster than putting it in a box, where it is quickly forgotten. Searching leads to innovation, and innovation leads to even more searching.loopyloo350

• 31. swallowfeather  |  October 29, 2007 at 5:47 pm

  JP Manzi–

  That’s the weird thing about all this for me. I remember what it felt like too.

  And then eventually God said something and I heard it but I honestly, honestly have no idea why it happened to me and not to you.

  I remember. I never hurt worse in my life. But I’m also deeply thankful for that time and for going through those questions, because I am infinitely more free now. I think some people on this thread might say you can only be liberated by leaving a belief in God behind, but it wasn’t so for me. There were a thousand thought-walls, a thousand things I was told to think and feel and I stayed obediently in my little box until I doubted, same as you all. I guess the difference is you all believe that faith in God and Jesus IS the box–but I don’t. Because I know how I feel, and I feel free.

• 32. Brad  |  October 29, 2007 at 6:02 pm

  Swallowfeather,

  The amazing and ironic thing about the freedom you describe is that it is eerily used in the same way by Christians coming to the faith (myself included). Freedom is a wonderful way to explain it.

  I’m not making any kind of judgment over the quality of either direction in the journey, but the similarities are striking… hrmm… It is interesting though. Any ideas? What do you think?

• 33. Paul S.  |  October 29, 2007 at 7:53 pm

  One of the greatest things about being a “neo-con” is the now gloriously easy-going Sunday mornings. Man, I wish I had those 20+ years of Sundays, Sunday nights and Wednesday nights back. What a waste.

• 34. missfossey  |  October 29, 2007 at 7:56 pm

  LeoPardus:

  I do not pretend to understand the inner workings of these people’s lives. I responded only to what they wrote within the post, asking questions accordingly.

  Not all Christians are blind sheep led by the whims of pastors and leaders. Not all Christians are unintelligent or uninformed. For me, my faith is a joy, it is a blessing, it is sweet and satisfying. Someone above mentioned using Christianity to safeguard us from our fear of hell. I do not fear hell, I yearn for more of God.

  Faith ceases to be faith when we start demanding evidence for it. Then it becomes a research project. I keep my faith, regardless of the actions of men, regardless of whatever circumstance befalls me, because I trust in God.

  Rather than this string of comments being a mode of discussion, it has become tinged with snide comments. I can almost hear the snickers behind some of the words we have begun to say. I desire that all people find and keep their faith out of love, not because I have all the answers.

• 35. mysteryofiniquity  |  October 29, 2007 at 8:27 pm

  missfossey,
  I love the naked honesty in your comment above! We all put our faith in something. Some put their faith in God. Some put their faith in their own intellect. Some put their faith in the sound of their own arguments. Some put their faith in a higher power but do not want to call it God. Some think they have everything all figured out and pass judgment on everyone else. I admire you, however, fo sticking to your joy and your faith. I wish I had that.

• 36. HeIsSailing  |  October 29, 2007 at 11:17 pm

  It is as simple as this:

  I once believed in Jesus. So I was a Christian.
  I no longer believe in Jesus. So I am no longer a Christian.

  I now believe that actions are more important than beliefs.

• 37. LeoPardus  |  October 30, 2007 at 10:32 am

  Faith ceases to be faith when we start demanding evidence for it.

  So all those millions who invest their time in apologetics, lack faith?

  Is is wrong to ask for evidence? Thomas did it, and was given evidence.

• 38. Halloween Eve 2007 «&hellip  |  October 30, 2007 at 10:41 am

  [...] course, there are us unbelievers; many of us started life as being very devout. In my case, I found myself being shocked at how primitive and barbaric the Old Testament was (mass [...]

• 39. Matt Blazer  |  October 30, 2007 at 10:56 am

  Karen, way above your comment made me laugh out loud. And, from the other post by MOI, I both appreciated and loved your comments.

  Lyndon, I am in seminary now, but have been in ministry just long enough (12 years) to feel that I begin to see how you could get to that place. I’m sorry, as one who has been wounded - though not as profoundly I think.

  missfossey/MOI: Ditto MOI, I appreciate so much the winsome, but incisive words.

  I think I’m de-converting from the faith I grew up on, and leaning towards Brian McLaren’s way of thinking, yet becoming a bit more orthodox in my approach to the Bible. I hope those three things don’t all meet in the middle and try to tear each other apart.

  I do know enough to hear such authentic questions and doubts and not refer to another book. Although, MOI - you references Susan Howatch - who I love (if she is a bit repetitive). Have you read her pre-Christian stuff? I loved “Sins of the Fathers”, but also Glittering Images and Glamorous Powers… So much great Psychology and such a parenthetical call to spiritual and emotional wholeness.

  I wonder how often what was preached and taught to us was just not given the full human weight it deserved? People need so much - rationality, time, to be listened to, healing from wounds, authenticity… And there is so much arrogance within and outside of the church. It just makes me wonder how many were swept into something without being heard first. More than being worried about it, I hope and pray that I would learn to listen better.

  Although I am not a de-con, I sense a connection with many of your posts and enjoy being part of the discussion.

• 40. karen  |  October 30, 2007 at 12:51 pm

  One of the greatest things about being a “neo-con” is the now gloriously easy-going Sunday mornings. Man, I wish I had those 20+ years of Sundays, Sunday nights and Wednesday nights back. What a waste.

  I felt this way immediately after deconverting, and it was the source of much anger. How much time had I wasted on empty ideology over the years! How many decisions had I made based on disinformation!

  Perhaps the most lasting pleasure in life is the pleasure of not going to church. –William Inge

  Just wanted to share that great quote.

  As I worked through my anger, I also came to see that I had gotten good things out of church, too. It certainly was a huge part of making me who I am today, for good or bad. I still LOVE my laid-back, comforting Sunday mornings, but now I’m not so dismissive of the years I spent in church. Though I definitely don’t miss the mad, stressful rush to get myself and the kids ready on time so we wouldn’t be late for worship service.

  Although I am not a de-con, I sense a connection with many of your posts and enjoy being part of the discussion.

  That’s terrific. I like that we share some common ground with others who have had similar experiences but have not gone the path of deconverting (yet).

  nooga - great post! thanks for laying it all out on the line like that. You made a good summation of many things I can relate to also.

• 41. missfossey  |  October 31, 2007 at 8:33 am

  LeoPardus:

  I wish you would stop stretching the context of my comments. I myself studied theology. It is the motive that I was referring to. Learning apologetics, studying doctrine so that you can learn more about your faith is commendable. Researching for the sake of finding any possible way to disprove the existence of God and therefore the need for faith is what I was referring to.

  The Lord also said to Thomas: Blessed are those who believe and did not see.

  I never posted here to have a battle of the questions. The battle between having faith versus not having faith is not going to be settled between two bloggers, nor was a battle anything near what I wanted.

• 42. loopyloo350  |  October 31, 2007 at 9:04 am

  I wonder if your lives are so filled with structure that you have to place yourselves and everything around you in boxes. Must everything fit perfectly? In nature nothing is structured perfectly, there is always room for change, in fact, change is the norm.Are you so sure of yourselves that you can not allow for an unstructured existance. May your lives have a little light, and a little hope.

• 43. KermitTheAgnostic  |  October 31, 2007 at 4:31 pm

  loopyloo - are you religious or not? I can not tell from your statement. I can read it coming from either a Christian or a De-con.

  That makes it a verys interesting statement though.

• 44. Thinking Ape  |  October 31, 2007 at 4:34 pm

  Kermit, I think it could go either way.

  Loopy, I agree with you, but isn’t it just part of the human condition? I seek to make sense of things and so we must categorize them. Is language itself not a way of “boxing up” the realities we are faced with?

• 45. Brad  |  October 31, 2007 at 5:46 pm

  Hrmmm… TA… you have a good point. By categorizing, we are able to make sense of their relationships/interactions. I think that what looploo is getting at (and if not, where I would stand) is that it’s important not to let those categories define their contents instead of the contents defining categories. Or in other words, hold your labeling/categorization looser than you hold the “thing” itself.

  But I agree that we cannot help but do it. It can be very helpful.

• 46. robd  |  October 31, 2007 at 7:03 pm

  missfossey,
  I think you misunderstand.
  Generally, ex-christian atheists have studied the bible a lot before losing their faith, few keep studying it for faults after.
  In fact, many like myself come to the conclusion that god is man-made through reading the bible.

• 47. Lorena  |  October 31, 2007 at 11:02 pm

  Missfossey wrote:
  Rather than this string of comments being a mode of discussion, it has become tinged with snide comments. I can almost hear the snickers behind some of the words we have begun to say. I desire that all people find and keep their faith out of love, not because I have all the answers.

  Lorena respond:
  The answers are actually pretty mild. I am surprised at the patience the de-converts on this blog have toward the ignorant, naive comments left by Christians. You guys are showing enormous patience.

• 48. loopyloo350  |  November 1, 2007 at 9:31 am

  Curious? How do you define a Christian? If you define it as a belief in God and Christ, then I am Christian. If you base it on attending an organized Church, well, that is a different story. Do you think God really cares as long as you try your best to do as he asks? With the coming of Christ all people were made a part of Gods kingdom. “Wherefore three or more of you are gathered in my name, that is where my church is.” If you define it that way, here we are, three or more, in God’s name. Nowhere there does it say we all have to be believers. How does God answer questions? What profit to be given everything and earn nothing? loopyloo

• 49. Thinking Ape  |  November 1, 2007 at 12:29 pm

  Loopy, I think the majority of the de-converts here are past considering “Christianity” as something limited to the “organized” church - although what does it mean to be “organized”? Is three people not an organization? Is the Bible not an organization of certain texts? Is not the doctrines that make up the “belief in God and Christ” a result of organization?
  I’m not trying to pick, I know what you mean by organized religion. I just wonder how valid that statement really is.

• 50. Why do unbelievers care s&hellip  |  November 1, 2007 at 8:52 pm

  [...] most of the people on this blog, as fits a blog about de-conversion, are de-converts, and so they may have other reasons for thinking about this. They may live in societies that demand [...]

• 51. loopyloo350  |  November 2, 2007 at 10:58 am

  thinking ape: point well taken and I go back to something I said elsewhere, to take the bible as whole truth and whole history is to do a disservice not only to ourselves but to truth. Perhaps the simple fact is that most faith is based on hope and not knowledge. Perhaps the quest for knowledge is what gives us hope. Perhaps your idea of de-conversion is not from lack of faith so much as it is distrust. The hypocricsy that I have seen so many fall prey to has often made me wonder that anyone has faith.

• 52. KermitTheAgnostic  |  November 2, 2007 at 5:59 pm

  Trust nothing. Believe nothing. Be prepared to be wrong.

  Analyze what IS and accept, with doubt, only what is highly probable and demonstratable. There is no reason to just believe based on faith.

  Yes ThinkingApe! Putting things in boxes is exactly what the human brain is designed to do. We need to make sense of the world in order to deal with it. Language is a direct extension of this, as is religion.

  However we need to show restraint because it simply is not the case that just believing something makes it so. We get confused because we are taught things like, just believe it and it will happen. While this can be a powerful motivator, as when a football player wants to win a game - belief that he will helps, he knows that it is entirely possible that he won’t. But he does not give up the belief because that keeps him going. And he does not stop training because he knows inside that belief is not enough.

  For this reason it is important for us to realize that belief alone is not enough with religion either. Too many have used this mistake in thinking to support religion. We simply should only accept what is highly probable and demonstratable. Yes, we can say, “I hope there is a God” or, “I hope there is a heaven.” But to use faith alone to support a belief has no use at all. Because then any crazy idea or God can be believed in because of belief alone.

  - I wonder if I just wrote that.

• 53. loopyloo350  |  November 3, 2007 at 10:15 am

  faith without works is dead, belief alone gets you nowhere. To believe in the unbelieveable is to dream. To dream is to hope, grow, learn and finally to trust is to have faith.

• 54. sugarmonkey  |  December 1, 2007 at 6:15 pm

  I think that faith is a belief in a life force, whether that is Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc., or the positive energies. Christ is a name for the positive life force, just like Buddha, etc. He is an
  incarnation, or forgive me, a METAPHOR for living positive and for the building up of life.
  I believe in the Spirit of Jesus Christ, which also can be Buddha, or anyone or anything else….because that is the spirit that creates hope and life. This Spirit exists.
  The faith of the churches that looks at sin, is correct - because the manner of sin is to do harm and destroy, whether through malicious thoughts, words or actions that disparage others and corrupt the disparager. Sin feeds on itself until it becomes all consuming.
  The only relief is to believe in some positive life force that is greater than oneself and presses you to do other positive things. The dusty beliefs of some dying churches that believe in the literal interpetation of the Bible, have missed the point, in my opinion. Faith is about life - and being uplifted.
  If they disparage others for not believing in the literal truth of the Bible, than they have a false faith because one cannot be judgemental.

• 55. kermittheagnostic  |  December 2, 2007 at 2:07 am

  Interesting points. I would agree with you on most except that extra step you take. That step to a higher power, which I would argue is unnecessary.

  I like this “life force” as you put it. And I do think we need to be positive in life and be good to each other. However I do not agree that the ONLY relief is to believe in a life force that is greater than oneself. True relief only comes from understanding that we rise above evil and love each other because it simply makes sense to. Attributing this to an unexplainable power only allows for us to excuse ourselves when we do evil because we did not give ourselves credit for being able to figure out right from wrong on our own. To believe that the only thing driving us to be moral is a higher power is to relieve ourselves of the responsibility of justifying our actions. We do have the capability on our own of being the wonderful creatures we say only God could create. Once we realize this the responsibility of being moral is inexcusably ours. In other words, doing good is much more apt to be consistently done when we understand that it makes sense to us to do so and not just because someone else told us so.

  If you feel there is a “life force” why call it Jesus or Buddha or God? Why not just say, “I feel a life force that is good.” The reason religious people get into problems is that they take this feeling and make it into something it is not. Suddenly they are saying there is a God and they know what happens after you die and when the world is gonna end and what is right and what is wrong and who you should vote for! This is taking the “life force” too far I think!

  -Kermit

• 56. Convenient categories: Th&hellip  |  March 27, 2008 at 12:50 am

  [...] we shoot down their reasons, thus inconveniencing them with the need to come up with others. So we de-cons have compiled a list from which one can simply select. We hope this will save wear and tear (on the [...]

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