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	<title>Comments on: Religion and Atheism: Cultures in Conflict</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Pastorpreneurs, Megamosques, Public Life &#171; Balneus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10466</link>
		<dc:creator>Pastorpreneurs, Megamosques, Public Life &#171; Balneus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 11:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Religion and Atheism: Cultures in Conflict (Deconversion 2007-11-08) [...]</description>
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		<title>By: athinkingman</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10189</link>
		<dc:creator>athinkingman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I take your point Jason.  Nevertheless, part of me wants to argue that the key issue is that all the diversity in religion (however mainstream or fringe) is always irrational.  Atheists may disagree, but at least they can hold a rational conversation about it.  However, it is difficult to hold a rational conversation with people who invoke the mysterious (in the sense of non-scientific and therefore irraitonal) or the supernatural (which is also non-scientific and irrational).  Personally, I'm not ok with that, given where it has lead to in the past and where it may lead to in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your point Jason.  Nevertheless, part of me wants to argue that the key issue is that all the diversity in religion (however mainstream or fringe) is always irrational.  Atheists may disagree, but at least they can hold a rational conversation about it.  However, it is difficult to hold a rational conversation with people who invoke the mysterious (in the sense of non-scientific and therefore irraitonal) or the supernatural (which is also non-scientific and irrational).  Personally, I&#8217;m not ok with that, given where it has lead to in the past and where it may lead to in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10184</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10184</guid>
		<description>I find this discussion rather intriguing - and encouraging.  As a current seminarian studying for the ministry, I'm glad to find a place where these ideas can be discussed without turning into petty, thoughtless accusations and insults from either side.

It is true that Christianity - and all major world religions for that matter - is extremely diverse in its practices.  That's disturbing even from a Christian perspective.  But there is a positive that comes from it as well: Christianity is a faith that allows for a tremendous amount of diversity.  And to echo some things that have already been said here, it's only the most extreme right-wing cases that don't accept that diversity.  You'll find the same thing Islam and Judaism.

We Christians may argue about a lot of petty differences - very bothersome - but one thing remains the same: We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for the sins of those who would accept Him as their Lord and Savior.  The Bible is a very mysterious book, and Christians everywhere need to accept that there is a certain degree of mystery to it.  That means we'll never have all the answers...and I'm okay with that.

fwiw,

JDV</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this discussion rather intriguing - and encouraging.  As a current seminarian studying for the ministry, I&#8217;m glad to find a place where these ideas can be discussed without turning into petty, thoughtless accusations and insults from either side.</p>
<p>It is true that Christianity - and all major world religions for that matter - is extremely diverse in its practices.  That&#8217;s disturbing even from a Christian perspective.  But there is a positive that comes from it as well: Christianity is a faith that allows for a tremendous amount of diversity.  And to echo some things that have already been said here, it&#8217;s only the most extreme right-wing cases that don&#8217;t accept that diversity.  You&#8217;ll find the same thing Islam and Judaism.</p>
<p>We Christians may argue about a lot of petty differences - very bothersome - but one thing remains the same: We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for the sins of those who would accept Him as their Lord and Savior.  The Bible is a very mysterious book, and Christians everywhere need to accept that there is a certain degree of mystery to it.  That means we&#8217;ll never have all the answers&#8230;and I&#8217;m okay with that.</p>
<p>fwiw,</p>
<p>JDV</p>
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		<title>By: athinkingman</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10180</link>
		<dc:creator>athinkingman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10180</guid>
		<description>I take your point Owen.  Nevertheless, part of me wants to point out that from my perspective, there is something PROFOUNDLY irrational about having any religious faith, and therefore I posited the culture clash in the way that I did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take your point Owen.  Nevertheless, part of me wants to point out that from my perspective, there is something PROFOUNDLY irrational about having any religious faith, and therefore I posited the culture clash in the way that I did.</p>
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		<title>By: owen59</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-10173</link>
		<dc:creator>owen59</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If there is a culture clash it is between ideologues and rational thinkers. It doesn't help the dialogue to think of it as between atheists and theists. I think you would find a large body of religious thinkers as deeply disturbed by the actions you described here. The question is whether we want to go through life drawing lines between people or trying to find places of connection. We shouldn't have to agree with each other on everything to make society work well. But we do have to be respectful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If there is a culture clash it is between ideologues and rational thinkers. It doesn&#8217;t help the dialogue to think of it as between atheists and theists. I think you would find a large body of religious thinkers as deeply disturbed by the actions you described here. The question is whether we want to go through life drawing lines between people or trying to find places of connection. We shouldn&#8217;t have to agree with each other on everything to make society work well. But we do have to be respectful.</p>
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		<title>By: ESVA</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9972</link>
		<dc:creator>ESVA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 14:44:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9972</guid>
		<description>Mrs. P.:
You opened your comment with these statements:

&lt;i&gt;The groups of people you cited in this article were mainly from fringe radical groups or cults, not Orthodox Christians. This is not the way we think nor is it how I believe my God wants us to think."&lt;/i&gt;

I'll begin with the first sentence. I think one point of citing the fringe elements of religion is to demonstrate how far afield religious thought can stray from reasoned thought. Unfortunately, religious thought is all of a piece; the distinctions between beliefs and the practices carried out on the basis of those beliefs are differences in degree, not in kind.  Religious thought  occurs on a continuum and it is difficult (perhaps impossible) to define the points on that continuum at which beliefs cross from orthodox to radical to disturbing to dangerous, etc. Religion does not have the self-correcting mechanisms of science or logic, and, as Dawkins points out, westerners are expected to respect, or at least tolerate, all religions equally. Such respect is precarious in a world in which bona fide lunatics can wreak horrendous destruction upon themselves and their neighbors.

Now I will look briefly at your second sentence. Based on the entirety of your comment, I suspect that you are a believer with whom I would love to chat, have a cup of coffee, etc. I would probably love to live next door to you. Unfortunately, you reveal the weakness of your position by saying that radicalism is not how &lt;i&gt;you believe your God&lt;/i&gt; wants us to think. Your religious vision may be beautiful, but it is yours alone; your understanding of your God is yours alone. And that's the problem with religion in general. 

Oh, we point to "authoritative" texts and cite them as our foundations, but textual interpretation is a free-for-all in which anything goes. Yes, there are advanced methods of biblical study available, but not everyone agrees that they should be applied. Even among those who apply the newer, more scientific means of study, there are thousands of interpretive results that compete for dominance. There is no mechanism by which believers can test the teachings of Borg or Wright or Spong or Colson or Ehrman or Geisler or Craig, or even Pope Benedict, and can, at the very least, weed out the mistaken or misleading or dangerous beliefs. There is no falsification in religion. 

You also stated, "The mind justifies what the heart has already chosen." This, is, alas true in too many cases. The challenge for all humankind is to strike the appropriate balance whereby both mind and heart can inform and influence each other so that life will be enjoyed and enriched to its fullest.

Thanks for your input. Sorry I've gone on a bit in my response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mrs. P.:<br />
You opened your comment with these statements:</p>
<p><i>The groups of people you cited in this article were mainly from fringe radical groups or cults, not Orthodox Christians. This is not the way we think nor is it how I believe my God wants us to think.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll begin with the first sentence. I think one point of citing the fringe elements of religion is to demonstrate how far afield religious thought can stray from reasoned thought. Unfortunately, religious thought is all of a piece; the distinctions between beliefs and the practices carried out on the basis of those beliefs are differences in degree, not in kind.  Religious thought  occurs on a continuum and it is difficult (perhaps impossible) to define the points on that continuum at which beliefs cross from orthodox to radical to disturbing to dangerous, etc. Religion does not have the self-correcting mechanisms of science or logic, and, as Dawkins points out, westerners are expected to respect, or at least tolerate, all religions equally. Such respect is precarious in a world in which bona fide lunatics can wreak horrendous destruction upon themselves and their neighbors.</p>
<p>Now I will look briefly at your second sentence. Based on the entirety of your comment, I suspect that you are a believer with whom I would love to chat, have a cup of coffee, etc. I would probably love to live next door to you. Unfortunately, you reveal the weakness of your position by saying that radicalism is not how <i>you believe your God</i> wants us to think. Your religious vision may be beautiful, but it is yours alone; your understanding of your God is yours alone. And that&#8217;s the problem with religion in general. </p>
<p>Oh, we point to &#8220;authoritative&#8221; texts and cite them as our foundations, but textual interpretation is a free-for-all in which anything goes. Yes, there are advanced methods of biblical study available, but not everyone agrees that they should be applied. Even among those who apply the newer, more scientific means of study, there are thousands of interpretive results that compete for dominance. There is no mechanism by which believers can test the teachings of Borg or Wright or Spong or Colson or Ehrman or Geisler or Craig, or even Pope Benedict, and can, at the very least, weed out the mistaken or misleading or dangerous beliefs. There is no falsification in religion. </p>
<p>You also stated, &#8220;The mind justifies what the heart has already chosen.&#8221; This, is, alas true in too many cases. The challenge for all humankind is to strike the appropriate balance whereby both mind and heart can inform and influence each other so that life will be enjoyed and enriched to its fullest.</p>
<p>Thanks for your input. Sorry I&#8217;ve gone on a bit in my response.</p>
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		<title>By: athinkingman</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9958</link>
		<dc:creator>athinkingman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 06:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9958</guid>
		<description>Regarding #15.  One of the points of prayer MAY be to get to know God, but when Jesus said: "Ask and you will receive", he didn't say: "Ask and you will get to know God".  And the question still remains: Why doesn't God heal amputees in answer to prayer?

And the bigger issue still remains.  If prayer is central to mainstream religion, and if it involves somehow getting the divine to do something that he already know he/she will do:
1) Where is the proof that it is happening?
2) Doesn't it seem a slightly odd thing to have to do?
In other words, it is both irrational and unscientific.  And therefore mainstream religion is part of a pre-Englightenment culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding #15.  One of the points of prayer MAY be to get to know God, but when Jesus said: &#8220;Ask and you will receive&#8221;, he didn&#8217;t say: &#8220;Ask and you will get to know God&#8221;.  And the question still remains: Why doesn&#8217;t God heal amputees in answer to prayer?</p>
<p>And the bigger issue still remains.  If prayer is central to mainstream religion, and if it involves somehow getting the divine to do something that he already know he/she will do:<br />
1) Where is the proof that it is happening?<br />
2) Doesn&#8217;t it seem a slightly odd thing to have to do?<br />
In other words, it is both irrational and unscientific.  And therefore mainstream religion is part of a pre-Englightenment culture.</p>
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		<title>By: Askin</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9954</link>
		<dc:creator>Askin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 03:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9954</guid>
		<description>Where did you read about the date when Adam and Eve have met?
There is no indication of its date in any religious book. Certainly
they must have met before the Turkana boy. 
Recetly there were articles in many world magasines, including one in German Spiegel, I think, which talked about the Paradise must have been somewhere in today's Turkey, beside the two rivers - Euphrates and Tigris- and the ruins of the first human settlement there dated back to 15000 BC.
So your article is making only speculations.
---
Life has started from a single cell and in water according to Koran
-which came to confirm the books sent previously by God. 
And the process of life has continued afterwards under the guidance of God. How else can one expect such an intricate and superior order in the nature (one example , the human brain) 
which is definetely not a result of a series of co-incidents.
Somewhere in the chain, came Adam and Eve, thrown out of Paradise. This resembles the story of the modern man very much actually- we are slowly being thrown out of "our Paradise"
and maybe forced to look for another planet, if we continue to use
the earth the way we do...
Askin Ozcan
Author of SMALL MIRACLES - ISBN 1598001000
Outskirts Press</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where did you read about the date when Adam and Eve have met?<br />
There is no indication of its date in any religious book. Certainly<br />
they must have met before the Turkana boy.<br />
Recetly there were articles in many world magasines, including one in German Spiegel, I think, which talked about the Paradise must have been somewhere in today&#8217;s Turkey, beside the two rivers - Euphrates and Tigris- and the ruins of the first human settlement there dated back to 15000 BC.<br />
So your article is making only speculations.<br />
&#8212;<br />
Life has started from a single cell and in water according to Koran<br />
-which came to confirm the books sent previously by God.<br />
And the process of life has continued afterwards under the guidance of God. How else can one expect such an intricate and superior order in the nature (one example , the human brain)<br />
which is definetely not a result of a series of co-incidents.<br />
Somewhere in the chain, came Adam and Eve, thrown out of Paradise. This resembles the story of the modern man very much actually- we are slowly being thrown out of &#8220;our Paradise&#8221;<br />
and maybe forced to look for another planet, if we continue to use<br />
the earth the way we do&#8230;<br />
Askin Ozcan<br />
Author of SMALL MIRACLES - ISBN 1598001000<br />
Outskirts Press</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9946</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9946</guid>
		<description>Regarding comment #12 - I've seen the "amputee" site, the 10 questions and the jug of milk argument on prayer... The guy is misinformed about prayer. It's not a magic incantation. Check out my post at http://heartquest.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/the-purpose-of-prayer/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding comment #12 - I&#8217;ve seen the &#8220;amputee&#8221; site, the 10 questions and the jug of milk argument on prayer&#8230; The guy is misinformed about prayer. It&#8217;s not a magic incantation. Check out my post at <a href="http://heartquest.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/the-purpose-of-prayer/" rel="nofollow">http://heartquest.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/the-purpose-of-prayer/</a></p>
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		<title>By: athinkingman</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9944</link>
		<dc:creator>athinkingman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/08/religion-and-atheism-cultures-in-conflict/#comment-9944</guid>
		<description>parallelsidewalk - Dawkins is passionate yes, but it seems harsh to call him intolerant.  Isn't his point this:  "I will listen to reason and examine evidence and have a debate and change my mind if necessary.  Most people in religion won't do the same."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>parallelsidewalk - Dawkins is passionate yes, but it seems harsh to call him intolerant.  Isn&#8217;t his point this:  &#8220;I will listen to reason and examine evidence and have a debate and change my mind if necessary.  Most people in religion won&#8217;t do the same.&#8221;</p>
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