Comments on: The stages of grief over my loss of faith http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/ Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians...... Thu, 23 May 2013 22:24:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: phyllis http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50500 Sun, 21 Nov 2010 04:39:37 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50500 I just read a great Joseph Campbell quote, “I don’t need faith, I have experience.”

]]> By: phyllis http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50489 Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:31:41 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50489 if negative feelings do come up in meditations, let them exam them don’t fight them. Don’t give them power. If you experience anger say oh yeah there’s anger, hi anger and let it go. Acknowledge it, don’t try to fight it, deny it or anything like that. After all we are human.
I know most of the people on here are atheists, I’m not really. I practice Buddhism. (As well as a more pantheistic and animistic belief)

]]> By: Ubi Dubium http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50487 Sat, 20 Nov 2010 00:37:16 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50487 My view on meditation is that calming your mind and focusing on something soothing and repetitive for awhile is probably good for your brain. It doesn’t bring enlightenment or wisdom, and it doesn’t really matter what you’re focusing on, as long as it is not anything upsetting. It’s kind of like rebooting your brain; it can help you focus and function better. Which would explain why so many religions include some form of repetitve prayer or meditation in their rituals.

So don’t worry about doing it “right” or finding “enlightenment”. If it makes you feel better, then meditate. Otherwise forget it and find what does work for you.

]]> By: Tania http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50485 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 23:28:05 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50485 @Phyllis,

Thank you for your kind words. I know that I am often harder on myself than anyone else would ever be. I do continue to study and read and even try to meditate. I don’t know that I will ever believe that there is anything more than this life, but if I can come to an acceptance of that without too much lingering sadness, well that will be good enough. Thank you again for taking the time to write to me.

]]> By: phyllis http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50484 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 22:16:35 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50484 @ Tania
there is no right way to meditate. Even Buddha had start from somewhere. I think you are being to hard on yourself for believing, did they ever bring you happiness? Did it teach you anything? Life is transitory for everything that exists- this includes beliefs and non- beliefs. It wasn’t bad for you to belief, as it is not bad for you to disbelieve. It is what it is.
I felt the church because it was lacking, it was self absorbed. I looked else. I found something else. Something that was right for me. You will find a belief that is right for you.

]]> By: the chaplain http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50482 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:44:27 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50482 Joe Baron:

I am not an expert, but we do have over 5000 manuscripts from antiquity with a 99% accuracy of them all. No offense, but you can’t get that kind of accuracy from Shakespeare, Homer, or any poet from antiquity.

You’re right – you’re not an expert. And neither is Josh McDowell.

If you’re arrogant and judgmental enough to think that this one post encompasses the entirety of my understanding of the Bible, it’s almost certainly a waste of my time to say anything more to you. Consider this: one reason it’s difficult, if not impossible, to name other ancient writings that have been preserved as the OT and NT have been is because Christians went to a lot of trouble to destroy literature that didn’t support their worldview, and they went to even more trouble to propagate their scriptures to the exclusion of competing ideas. Those are the marks of cultural hegemony, not divine inspiration and preservation.

Your argument from “gulit” is laughable. Guilt is a consequence of the fact that humans are social beings, not “a mark of a Creator” who, being perfect and all, cannot possibly experience such an emotion himself.

Finally, your assertion that “there is something more after this life” is a mark of your fear of death and wishful thinking, unless you can support it with evidence derived from somewhere other than your feelings and your book of fables. Can you do that?

I didn’t think so.

]]> By: Joe Baron http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50478 Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:43:46 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50478 Wow. I would have to radically disagree with your understanding of the Bible. I am not an expert, but we do have over 5000 manuscripts from antiquity with a 99% accuracy of them all. No offense, but you can’t get that kind of accuracy from Shakespeare, Homer, or any poet from antiquity. The reason the Bible is the source of truth is not simply because certain manuscripts have error (we know that to be true), but because those errors between manuscripts can be easily seen. After all, you just mentioned a couple of clearly seen errors in your blog. But you are wrong to categorize the entire canon in that way. Name any ancient documents that have been as preserved as the Old and New Testament. Unfortunately you won’t be able to. Also, I respectfully challenge your idea to simply enjoy this life because it’s the only you have. What about guilt? Don’t you ever sense guilt about something that you have done is wrong? What happens to that guilt? If you say that you never feel that way, you are just lying to yourself. The guilt, the sense of remorse, the desire for restitution for wrongs done and a longing for justice is a mark of a Creator. Animals do not feel those things. Therfore, if a Creator has created us, we are accountable to Him. There is something more after this life.

]]> By: Tania http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50456 Sat, 13 Nov 2010 14:06:38 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50456 the chaplain: This is so wonderfully written. It’s as though you climbed into my head and expressed MY thoughts in a way I never could.

I’ve questioned all my life, but never really studied. This summer, I determined that I would put my questions to rest and actually READ the entire bible. I got to the middle of Daniel and just could go no further. When I started, I fully expected the bible to grow my faith. Imagine my surprise, and sadness, when the exact opposite reaction began. I think I am experiencing every stage all at once. I wake with sadness, devour articles and blogs (like this one), get angry at myself for ever believing, even if just a tiny bit, in these ridiculous fairy tales. I have tried meditation and found fault with myself for the lack of enlightenment. I just can’t “do” it right. Then I go to bed at night trying to reconcile myself to the fact that I will never see my loved ones again. And so I wake with sadness and start all over again. This is a very sad and lonely journey. It helps to know that people come out on the other side of this with feelings of happiness and peace. Thank you for sharing.

]]> By: the chaplain http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50341 Fri, 22 Oct 2010 22:39:32 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50341 Haley:
Yes, I’ve read Mere Christianity and several other C.S. Lewis books. I would say that his apologetic approach is more sophisticated than the “just believe and it will be true” approach, but I wouldn’t characterize his approach as “scientific” in any way. Lewis wrote eloquently, a characteristic that sometimes masks his logical flaws.

For example, consider Lewis’ oft-referenced “trilemma” – his argument that Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or lord. Anyone who thinks that those three categories exhaust all the possibilities regarding Jesus’ identity has not thought the matter through. I can think of at least two more possibilities: legend #1 and legend #2.

Legend #1: An itinerant preacher named Jesus really existed and stories of his miraculous deeds were either greatly exaggerated or completely fabricated. This preacher may have said some, or even many, of the things attributed to him, but he didn’t actually change water into wine, raise people from the dead, walk on water, cast demons from people, etc. The teachings may be accurate (I’ll grant that for the sake of argument), but the miracle stories are not.

Legend #2: The Jesus character is completely fabricated. The character may have been loosely based on an actual person, or he may have been as fictional as Mithras, Zeus or Superman.

I wouldn’t be surprised if other commenters here can add other possibilities besides these five – Lewis’ three and my two.

]]> By: Haley http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50340 Fri, 22 Oct 2010 21:47:27 +0000 http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/09/the-stages-of-grief-over-my-loss-of-faith/#comment-50340 Have you read “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis? He was in your exact same position, so the book is more “scientifically” approached than just the typical “just believe it and it will be true” approach. I would suggest that book to anyone before they make a “final” decision — that guy is a genuis.

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