Reminds me of when I was a substance abuse counselor. Our biggest task was breaking through denial. I had one client who, some months after breaking through her denial told me “I want my denial back!”. Hmmmmm.

Now you sound like the devil. Jesus addressed this in Matthew 4:5-7 “Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.”

What you said also reminds me of the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. He needed more to prove hell existed for his brothers and God said you have the Bible (moses and the prophets) and if they don’t believe that they will not believe anything else. (presupposition again)

One of the forums that I was reading answered something that I thought was interesting enough to share with you:

Does God Speak To Us Apart From The Bible?

ANSWER: No. The Bible reveals the mind of God to the mind of man.

God does not speak to us apart from His revealed words recorded in the Bible. God speaks to us today through His Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:1-4).

BIBLICAL PROOF:

* The phrase “God hath spoken” shows God has said all that He intends to say (Hebrews 1:1-2).

* Jesus promised the apostles they would be guided into all truth (John 16:13). If God is still revealing truth, the apostles were not guided into all truth as Christ promised.

* Paul said he declared all the counsel of God (Acts 20:27). How could Paul have made such a claim, if God’s message to man was not complete? The answer is that the Bible reveals the completed message of God to man.

* Timothy was taught, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unti all good works” (II Timothy 3:16-17). The American Standard Version says, “that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.” The fact that a man may be complete shows the Word of God is complete. The Bible is all we need!

* If God is still giving revelation, then Peter was mistaken when he said God “hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness” (II Peter 1:3).

* The faith, which is the gospel (Colossians 1:23), “was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3). That is, once for all time. Once a thing has been delivered, it does not need to be redelivered.

* If God spoke directly to a person and not to others, then this would make Him a respecter of persons (Acts 10:34).

* We are warned against adding to the Word of God (I Corinthians 4:6; Galatians 1:8-9; II John 9; Revelations 22:18-19). Anything revealed other than the recorded words of God in the Bible is error. For instance, some religious groups claim God provided latter day revelations. The latter day revelations claimed by men do not harmonize with clear Bible teaching from God’s word.

“*** Note: While I can be a sarcastic SOB, this post is not sarcastic. I sincerely mean all of it. ***”

I perfectly understand, this is a very important subject to me. I don’t want the lost to perish. You can clearly see that l put my faith in Jesus and if it is all true then there will be a lot of unrepentant sinners going to hell, and I just don’t want that. Another motivation is that your blood would be on my(our) hands if I (we) don’t warn you of your wickedness. (Ezekiel 3:17-21)

And (I’m) saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.(Mark 1:15)

Correct. My unbelief is based on a complete lack of experience. I’ve never seen God, or an angel, or been visited by a dead saint, or seen a miracle, or had a vision, or had any other experience with the supernatural.

My take was quite simple. If God wants me to believe, He need only show me something convincing.

You claim that you’ve had some such convincing experience. Good. If you have any sort of “in” with God, let Him know that I would be ecstatic to have some clear miracle, visitation, revelation, vision, etc. Whatever He, in His infinite knowledge, can see would clearly give me the assurance i need.

My family, and most of my friends are all believers. I would love to rejoin them. To be able to look back at doubt and atheism and say, “No more. Now i KNOW.”

So, if you’ve been so blessed, see if your imploring can move God more than mine.

*** Note: While I can be a sarcastic SOB, this post is not sarcastic. I sincerely mean all of it. ***

It might be because you lack experience and that is the difference. I have an experience that removed ALL doubt, I am 100% certain there is a God. On the flip an atheist cannot say they have 100% certainty based on a non experience, it is based on a belief still. They have a belief based on lack of said experience, but they remain uncertain (lack of assurance). That is in fact what you just said earlier, correct? You said “As far as I know, the god of Abraham does not exist.” (a belief based on lack of said experience)

Jesus is the answer to the questions of whether we can know anything about God as well as experience Him. Jesus is the way to God (John 14:6), and the One who reveals the truth about God (Matt. 11:27). So, can we know and experience God? Yes, we can, through Jesus. This is the message of truth that we need to convey to the world.

Also, because the Bible tells us that everyone can know through creation there is a God, and that they have this knowledge also embedded upon their hearts (Rom. 1:19-20), you can speak with confidence, knowing the Holy Spirit will confirm the truth of God’s Word in those to whom you speak. This does not mean that everyone will repent and come to Christ. But, it does mean that God will confirm the truth. What the unbelievers do with it, is up to them. You must realize there are those who have suppressed the knowledge of God in their unrighteousness (Rom. 1:18), and have been given over to the depravity of their minds (Rom. 1:24-28).

The atheist asked the Christian, how do you know there is a God? The Christian answered, “I know there is, because I know Him.” The atheist responded, “But how can I know that you are not in error?” The Christian said, “Knowing someone is not proven. It is experienced.”

Have you heard of a thing called “pride”? Synonyms would include “arrogance”, “pomposity”, “inflated ego”, “self aggrandizement”, and more.

You are convinced that you have it ALL correct! That’s amazing! Any human who comes to any conclusion apart from yours, must be wrong. I can’t think of a single human for whom that’s ever been true.

Now there is one being to whom infallibility has been ascribed. He’s usually called God.

I fear you’ve gotten yourself conflated with that being.

Still, it must be nice to think oneself infallible and a guide to all the blind world.

Pardon me, but you have serious delusions of grandeur.

“It breaks my heart that most of you never really got to know God.”

Tell me Dan, what special knowledge are you privy to that so many of us, and apparently millions (maybe billions) of Christians, truly lack? Tell me of your gnosis!

It is amazing how the subtle yet powerful “heresy” of gnosticism has triumphed in contemporary Christianity.

Truth

What reaction do you hope or expect to get from us by giving us this information?

How about a true conversion, that would be a great start.

LeoPardus “That’s just one more reason why many conclude that the Christian faith isn’t true.

So help me understand, you don’t believe in Christ and you were a false convert because you have gripes and complaints about other people?

LeoPardus “Because there are huge camps of people, claiming diametrically opposed things, all claiming them to be absolutely true and straight from God’s mouth.”

Click on my name (hermeneutics811.blogspot.com) to get some tips on how to use an Exegesis method of interpretation instead of an eisegesis method.

Lorena “As the reality of an invisible being is so fragile that it was easy to debunk.”

You probably all said some false thing called “sinners prayer” and thought you were all saved. To think that Jesus was knocking at your door and you “ALLOWED” him in is false teaching.

“But Dan, I stopped sinning (repentance) and really meant it (sincerity).”

Does God accept the repentance and sincerity of people as a means of obtaining forgiveness of sins? No, He does not. Think about it: if we appealed to God to forgive us based upon what we have done (repented), or what is in our hearts (sincerity), then we are seeking to be made right before God by our own efforts – and this amounts to pride. The fact is that our repentance and sincerity are not enough to merit forgiveness of sins. There is nothing we can do in word, deed, or heartfelt intent that will satisfy an infinitely holy God. If there were, then righteousness would be based upon what we do instead of the sacrifice of Christ (Eph. 2:21). But, Jesus did have to die because we cannot fulfill the perfect Law of God. Why? Because we have been touched by sin in our hearts, minds, and bodies.

Since we can do nothing to merit God’s love and forgiveness, He is the only One left who can remove our sin. This is why God had to come down in the form of a man (John 1:1,14), in order to shed His blood, wash away our sins (Acts 22:16), and make us right before God the Father by faith (Rom. 5:1). God’s holiness is too great to accept anything wrought by the heart or hand of man.

LeoPardus “You see Dan, I, and many others here, have been down that road. Just me and God. Personal relationship. He guides me into all truth. He’ll never lead me astray. We know all the things one says to oneself in order to convince oneself that one has a direct line on absolute truth.”

Wide is the gate that leads to destruction, right! (Matthew 7:13) It breaks my heart that most of you never really got to know God.

“The Scriptures clearly teach us that God is the Almighty (Job 11:7), who is incomprehensible (Psalm 145:3), infinite (Psalm 147:5), and wholly “other.” Yet, the Bible also tells us that God is knowable (John 17:3; Gal. 4:8-9). This means that though we cannot know Him exhaustively, we can know Him at a level we can comprehend, even if it is limited to our finite abilities. For example, we can know that God is love (1 John 4:8), that He is spirit (John 4:24), and that He communicates to us ( Exodus 20). We can know whatever it is God has revealed to us, because His Self-revelation has been arranged in such a way that we can understand it.

Because God is so incomprehensible and vast, the best way for us to know Him, is for God to reveal Himself to us in word and deed. This is exactly the case in the Incarnation. Jesus is divine, the second Person of the Trinity, the Word made flesh. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:1,14). Jesus is the exact representation of God (Heb. 1:3), and the only One who can reveal God (Matt. 11:27). Therefore, our ability to know God and also to experience God rests completely and totally with Jesus. Again, we can know God through Jesus Christ; “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him,” (Matt. 11:27).

Therefore, God is very knowable, because He has made Himself known in a way that we can understand. Jesus, who is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8), is our best revelation of God in word and deed, and the truest representation of what God is. And, because of the Incarnation, we can have a relationship with God, because to have a relationship with Jesus is to have a relationship with God: “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord,” (1 Cor. 1:9).” (carm)

Your conversation actually reminds me of setting up my DVD player tonight. I had to call the customer service number because it wasn’t working, and halfway through, the woman was telling me that I had a cable between the cable box and TV — I had to, because her solution wasn’t working. Even though I, being the one to look right at the back of my TV and see both cords to into the DVD player, was telling her that I didn’t, what I was telling her was a physical impossiblity.

It turned out I had to press a button on the TV remote to change the screen, which I did, and thus validated myself: I did have everything hooked up correctly.

[Patient goes away, comes back one week later]

Doctor: Well?
Patient: No luck, doc. Im still sick.
Doctor: So, you didnt really take the pill
Patient: ummmm… no, actually I did
Doctor: No, you didnt.
Patient: Why do you say that?
Doctor: Because its true. I know.
Patient: What are you talking about! You weren’t there, and Im telling you I did! How the hell do you think you know?
Doctor: I know you didnt take the pill because if you did, you’d be better.
Patient: But I tell you I did take the pill. It just didnt work
Doc: No, you didnt. If you had taken this pill, you’d be doing great and you’d be singing my praises right now. Your hedaches would be gone, your hair would grow back, your back pain would be cured, you’d have energy, your mood would be perpetually cheerful, and motivated to help others. You’d do good, fight crime, pay all doctor bills promptly, and be a model citizen. Plus no more bad breath.
Patient: Thats sounds wonderful, doc. Thats why I took it. But those things just didnt happen. The pill just didnt do what you said it would. Look, isnt there a blood test or something, a urine test — anything we can do to prove to you that I took it?
Doc: No, sorry. There is no independent means to confirm your compliance with the drug therapy beyond the outcome assessments I mentioned.
Patient: You mean, the symptoms we were trying to treat?
Doc; Yep, those.
Patient: So if my symptoms gets better, you conclude I was compliant with the medicine, and if the dont, you conclude I wasnt? Theres no third option, like the pill doesnt always work despite my doing what Im supposed to do?
Doc: Thats right
Patient: You cant take my word for it, on the realization that, oh, I dont know, I was there and you werent?
Doc: Your self-report is irrelevant. The pill always works. If it doesnt seem to work, that means you didnt really take it. Im the doctor and I say so.
Patient: So your treatment cant possibly be wrong. No state of affairs can ever prove that your treatment is ineffective.
Doc: Right
Patient: So by extension, you cant possibly be wrong
Doc: Sweet deal, ain’t it.
Patient: I’ll say.
Doc: That’ll be $90.

I just want to be as clear as possible that there are false converts and no such thing as a de-conversion….etc…

Dan, whenever Christians tell me this, I always ask a simple question. I have yet to get an answer to it. Please answer this, because I really am genuinely curious:

Why do you tell us that we were never Christians? What reaction do you hope or expect to get from us by giving us this information?