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	<title>Comments on: Manipulating Others Into the Kingdom</title>
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	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: mysteryofiniquity</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-13831</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mysteryofiniquity]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 02:59:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Good point, Rob. If I were the wife, I&#039;d take my best shot. If it were me on the end of a gun, I would think that if the choice is between lying or committing murder, I would choose lying as the lesser of two evils. Either scenario would work because if God were a merciful God he (sic) would realize the impossibility of such a scenario and not hold it against the victim.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Rob. If I were the wife, I&#8217;d take my best shot. If it were me on the end of a gun, I would think that if the choice is between lying or committing murder, I would choose lying as the lesser of two evils. Either scenario would work because if God were a merciful God he (sic) would realize the impossibility of such a scenario and not hold it against the victim.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-13779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 01:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-13779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a fairly typical approach in certain wings of Christianity.; the flawed scenario.  I remember one that was very popular while I was a Christian.  &quot;Would you lie about the presence of  political dissidents hiding in your basement in the light of Christian teaching about respecting authorities and always telling the truth?&quot;  The question is meant to set up some sort of moral quandary for believers, where no moral quandry would be likely.  And yet, many people really struggled with this kind of thing - I have seen it.  Would I lie about hiding political dissidents in my basement if the secret police came asking?  Well, I would if I decided to hide political dissidents in my basement to start with, as the very act of hiding someone wanted by the authorities is reason enough to demonstrate how I interpret my moral obligations!  The whole question is completely absurd on a logical level. But, that&#039;s not the level that is being addressed.

With this video; would a pastor lie about his faith or give the illusion of turning from it to save his life?  Maybe or maybe not.  But surely  the pastor&#039;s wife would have taken a stick or a big rock and  beaned the pyscho who put them in the situation
while he was monologuing with his back turned to her.  Problem solved.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a fairly typical approach in certain wings of Christianity.; the flawed scenario.  I remember one that was very popular while I was a Christian.  &#8220;Would you lie about the presence of  political dissidents hiding in your basement in the light of Christian teaching about respecting authorities and always telling the truth?&#8221;  The question is meant to set up some sort of moral quandary for believers, where no moral quandry would be likely.  And yet, many people really struggled with this kind of thing &#8211; I have seen it.  Would I lie about hiding political dissidents in my basement if the secret police came asking?  Well, I would if I decided to hide political dissidents in my basement to start with, as the very act of hiding someone wanted by the authorities is reason enough to demonstrate how I interpret my moral obligations!  The whole question is completely absurd on a logical level. But, that&#8217;s not the level that is being addressed.</p>
<p>With this video; would a pastor lie about his faith or give the illusion of turning from it to save his life?  Maybe or maybe not.  But surely  the pastor&#8217;s wife would have taken a stick or a big rock and  beaned the pyscho who put them in the situation<br />
while he was monologuing with his back turned to her.  Problem solved.</p>
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		<title>By: evangelistbillybolitho</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11773</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[evangelistbillybolitho]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2007 16:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Children of Promise            

 “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.      
                     	        		               
	{Galatians 4 v 28}.

When God looks at this old world, He no longer looks upon it like He did in the days before His only Son was crucified at Calvary. For Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary gave birth to the new covenant or testament, which He wrote on the hearts of men who accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. No longer does He see tribes and races of people as such, for now because of Christ’s sacrifice He sees only the children of promise and the children of the bound. Let me explain, God states clearly in scripture that the children of God are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, regardless of race or gender, they are the children of God, yes the children of promise. You see it is written, “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to promise”, {Galatians 3 v 29}.

 Abraham had two sons, one by a bondwoman called Agar, and another by a freewoman called Sarah, as it is written,  now these two sons represents the two covenants. The first son Ishmael of the bondwoman represented Jerusalem, which is now in bondage, which also represents the old covenant, but the freewoman’s son Isaac represents the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the new covenant. All God’s people are one in Christ Jesus, who are under the new covenant. Under this covenant there is no longer Jew, Gentile, slave or free, men or women, for we are all one in Christ. “For ye are all the children of promise  by faith in Christ Jesus”, 
                                                                                                             {Galatians 3 v 26}.
 Now God’s plan for the people of Israel is the same plan which He is using for the whole world, and that is that we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. There is no other plan for salvation, only through Jesus. Who was crucified for our sins and rose again for our justification, and who is alive forever more. Praise be the wonderful name of Jesus. As it is written, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”, {Acts 4 v 12}.

 As Isaac was, so are we the children of promise, no matter what nation we are from, God considers us all equal and precious in His sight. So precious are we that He sacrificed His only Son for each and everyone of us. So, let us all stand together as, the children of promise.    I would like to state that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and many more in Israel are likened unto an olive tree which also represents the children of promise. We who believe are grafted into that tree, and so we become one with them, and are known as the true Israel of today. Now today there are still people in Israel who are chosen by God according to election of grace who will be grafted back into the olive tree, which represents the children of promise.

 We must pray for them, that they will see Jesus, for it is written, “ There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins”, {Romans 11 v 26 &amp; 27}
 So dear saints, let us always pray and standby Israel, for I believe that there are many yet to come to know Jesus as their true Messiah. God bless Israel.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Children of Promise            </p>
<p> “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.      </p>
<p>	{Galatians 4 v 28}.</p>
<p>When God looks at this old world, He no longer looks upon it like He did in the days before His only Son was crucified at Calvary. For Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary gave birth to the new covenant or testament, which He wrote on the hearts of men who accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour. No longer does He see tribes and races of people as such, for now because of Christ’s sacrifice He sees only the children of promise and the children of the bound. Let me explain, God states clearly in scripture that the children of God are those who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, regardless of race or gender, they are the children of God, yes the children of promise. You see it is written, “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to promise”, {Galatians 3 v 29}.</p>
<p> Abraham had two sons, one by a bondwoman called Agar, and another by a freewoman called Sarah, as it is written,  now these two sons represents the two covenants. The first son Ishmael of the bondwoman represented Jerusalem, which is now in bondage, which also represents the old covenant, but the freewoman’s son Isaac represents the heavenly Jerusalem, which is the new covenant. All God’s people are one in Christ Jesus, who are under the new covenant. Under this covenant there is no longer Jew, Gentile, slave or free, men or women, for we are all one in Christ. “For ye are all the children of promise  by faith in Christ Jesus”,<br />
                                                                                                             {Galatians 3 v 26}.<br />
 Now God’s plan for the people of Israel is the same plan which He is using for the whole world, and that is that we must all repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. There is no other plan for salvation, only through Jesus. Who was crucified for our sins and rose again for our justification, and who is alive forever more. Praise be the wonderful name of Jesus. As it is written, “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”, {Acts 4 v 12}.</p>
<p> As Isaac was, so are we the children of promise, no matter what nation we are from, God considers us all equal and precious in His sight. So precious are we that He sacrificed His only Son for each and everyone of us. So, let us all stand together as, the children of promise.    I would like to state that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and many more in Israel are likened unto an olive tree which also represents the children of promise. We who believe are grafted into that tree, and so we become one with them, and are known as the true Israel of today. Now today there are still people in Israel who are chosen by God according to election of grace who will be grafted back into the olive tree, which represents the children of promise.</p>
<p> We must pray for them, that they will see Jesus, for it is written, “ There shall come out of Zion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins”, {Romans 11 v 26 &amp; 27}<br />
 So dear saints, let us always pray and standby Israel, for I believe that there are many yet to come to know Jesus as their true Messiah. God bless Israel.</p>
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		<title>By: loopyloo350</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11655</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[loopyloo350]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 13:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a very bad piece of work, but I disagree with just lableing it as Christian. Personally I think it is some mans wet dream about how he thought the good old days were, IE the fifties. The thing was that was just a piece of manipulation too. It was nowhere near that and no woman I know would have been content to cower in that car, I&quot;ll give you odds it was written by someone that  is still in college and very naive.
HelsSailing--Peneasco,Artesia,Hagerman,Roswell,Carlsbad-haven&#039;t been home in 37 years, I hope people do not fall for such foolish things as this video, frankly I would have thought until yeasterday that no one I knew would. Unfortunately my neighbor and friend emailed me a few things yesterday that she is getting that quite frankly shows how easily lies and misinformation are spread. I find a lot of it very offensive and have always been the type that if pushed will push back hard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very bad piece of work, but I disagree with just lableing it as Christian. Personally I think it is some mans wet dream about how he thought the good old days were, IE the fifties. The thing was that was just a piece of manipulation too. It was nowhere near that and no woman I know would have been content to cower in that car, I&#8221;ll give you odds it was written by someone that  is still in college and very naive.<br />
HelsSailing&#8211;Peneasco,Artesia,Hagerman,Roswell,Carlsbad-haven&#8217;t been home in 37 years, I hope people do not fall for such foolish things as this video, frankly I would have thought until yeasterday that no one I knew would. Unfortunately my neighbor and friend emailed me a few things yesterday that she is getting that quite frankly shows how easily lies and misinformation are spread. I find a lot of it very offensive and have always been the type that if pushed will push back hard.</p>
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		<title>By: HeIsSailing</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11605</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HeIsSailing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11605</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Leopardus:
&lt;blockquote&gt;We must come from a similar violent stock. Hmmm… I was born in TX. That must be it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am originally from rural New Mexico.  I would not say the people up there are necessarily violent, but... but let&#039;s just say those cowboys have learned how to defend themselves quite handily.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leopardus:</p>
<blockquote><p>We must come from a similar violent stock. Hmmm… I was born in TX. That must be it.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am originally from rural New Mexico.  I would not say the people up there are necessarily violent, but&#8230; but let&#8217;s just say those cowboys have learned how to defend themselves quite handily.</p>
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		<title>By: HeIsSailing</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11604</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HeIsSailing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 00:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11604</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Society vs:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Sounds rosey enough - are you sure you wouldn’t ask your wife’s help in smashing his head in also?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Let me tell you, that guy is lucky if it is only me beating him up.  He had better pray he does not face the wrath of my wife.  Last year, she took up power lifting and is now hooked - and very very strong.  When we wrestle, I have about 20 seconds where I can be in the advantage if I sneak up on her - after that I have to run for my life!!

Seriously though Society, I have had knives pulled on me too, and I have been jumped and mugged a couple of times.  Each time I played it cool, but I was alone.   But now that I am married - who knows what I would do if my wife was threatened in that way?  But really, the situation that wretched video presents is so artificial anyway, I can&#039;t really say what I would do!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Society vs:</p>
<blockquote><p>Sounds rosey enough &#8211; are you sure you wouldn’t ask your wife’s help in smashing his head in also?</p></blockquote>
<p>Let me tell you, that guy is lucky if it is only me beating him up.  He had better pray he does not face the wrath of my wife.  Last year, she took up power lifting and is now hooked &#8211; and very very strong.  When we wrestle, I have about 20 seconds where I can be in the advantage if I sneak up on her &#8211; after that I have to run for my life!!</p>
<p>Seriously though Society, I have had knives pulled on me too, and I have been jumped and mugged a couple of times.  Each time I played it cool, but I was alone.   But now that I am married &#8211; who knows what I would do if my wife was threatened in that way?  But really, the situation that wretched video presents is so artificial anyway, I can&#8217;t really say what I would do!!</p>
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		<title>By: societyvs</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11602</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[societyvs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:39:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11602</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I am sorry, but if I was put in that situation, I would have found the nearest big rock and bashed that psycho’s head in, and I mean that literally. That punk deserved grave injury, especially after brandishing that weapon towards the wife. Even as a Christian, that would have reached beyond the point of ‘turning the other cheek’&quot; (HIS)

Sounds rosey enough - are you sure you wouldn&#039;t ask your wife&#039;s help in smashing his head in also? I am not sure I would jump tp your extremes - I have had knives pulled on me - and because I do care about the other person brandishing them - I didn;t just go and find the closest weapon to &#039;duke it out&#039;. What good is that?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am sorry, but if I was put in that situation, I would have found the nearest big rock and bashed that psycho’s head in, and I mean that literally. That punk deserved grave injury, especially after brandishing that weapon towards the wife. Even as a Christian, that would have reached beyond the point of ‘turning the other cheek’&#8221; (HIS)</p>
<p>Sounds rosey enough &#8211; are you sure you wouldn&#8217;t ask your wife&#8217;s help in smashing his head in also? I am not sure I would jump tp your extremes &#8211; I have had knives pulled on me &#8211; and because I do care about the other person brandishing them &#8211; I didn;t just go and find the closest weapon to &#8216;duke it out&#8217;. What good is that?</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[karen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 17:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And I was exasperated with the wife, who stood there passively watching and gnawing her fingers instead of a) calling 911 on her cell phone, b) flagging down passing cars c) picking up a big rock, sneaking up and smashing the jerk in the head with it!

These pastors&#039; wives definitely need some assertiveness training. 
:-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I was exasperated with the wife, who stood there passively watching and gnawing her fingers instead of a) calling 911 on her cell phone, b) flagging down passing cars c) picking up a big rock, sneaking up and smashing the jerk in the head with it!</p>
<p>These pastors&#8217; wives definitely need some assertiveness training.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[HIS:

 We must come from a similar violent stock. Hmmm... I was born in TX. That must be it.  :)  

 My thought when watching the perp was, &quot;He&#039;s waving the gun right in their faces. Snatch it away and pistol whip him!&quot;

 O&#039; course I think that with a passle o&#039; years in martial arts....  More violence. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HIS:</p>
<p> We must come from a similar violent stock. Hmmm&#8230; I was born in TX. That must be it.  <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   </p>
<p> My thought when watching the perp was, &#8220;He&#8217;s waving the gun right in their faces. Snatch it away and pistol whip him!&#8221;</p>
<p> O&#8217; course I think that with a passle o&#8217; years in martial arts&#8230;.  More violence. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: HeIsSailing</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11539</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HeIsSailing]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 04:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/27/manipulating-others-into-the-kingdom/#comment-11539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[SocietyVs says:
&lt;blockquote&gt;In all honesty if I was put in that scenario I would likely say ‘I am not ready to die’ (who is ready to die in all honesty?).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am sorry, but if I was put in that situation, I would have found the nearest big rock and bashed that psycho&#039;s head in, and I mean that literally.  That punk deserved grave injury, especially after brandishing that weapon towards the wife.  Even as a Christian, that would have reached beyond the point of &#039;turning the other cheek&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SocietyVs says:</p>
<blockquote><p>In all honesty if I was put in that scenario I would likely say ‘I am not ready to die’ (who is ready to die in all honesty?).</p></blockquote>
<p>I am sorry, but if I was put in that situation, I would have found the nearest big rock and bashed that psycho&#8217;s head in, and I mean that literally.  That punk deserved grave injury, especially after brandishing that weapon towards the wife.  Even as a Christian, that would have reached beyond the point of &#8216;turning the other cheek&#8217;</p>
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