Jesus claimed to be the Son of God—in the most divine sense. Either He is or He’s a mad man, in which case the bible is as a religious document.

There is no such state as de-conversion. Either you are converted or not. All of us are born unconverted. Some never consider converting and others would like to be but the enticements of the world draw them away, and those who take root. Once the conversion occurs in the heart it is irreversible, because the indwelling Spirit comes to reside in the heart. There are many fewer Christians out there than you think. The commission of Christ isn’t social rebellion and the legislation of morality. That can’t be done. It is simply to share the Good News—God is evident, just, merciful, loving, compassionate, eternal. Christians don’t hate, don’t accuse, don’t hold grudges. If you don’t want to believe their message, that is OK. It may break their heart but they won’t condemn—that isn’t to say that there aren’t some immature Christians out there who still need to grow into this truth.

You did prove that any of us can go on line and find apparent evidence to support whatever position we take. Without going to the source documents, who knows? Me too! Below are excerpts from three of the original states constitutions only to illustrate that the founders of this country did believe in God and expected communities to respect Him. Yes, the founders believed in the separation of church and state. They did not want the state to establish a church like happened in Europe. But even the United States Constitution provided for a Christian chaplain for the Congress.

Thank you for this discourse. You have taught me much. In the end, it all comes down to belief. May God bless and keep you regardless of whatever direction your life takes and may He help you to find the answers you are seaking. Sincerely, Sharer.

Maine
Objects of government. We the people of Maine, in order to establish justice, insure tranquility, provide for our mutual defense, promote our common welfare, and secure to ourselves and our posterity the blessings of liberty, acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity, so favorable to the design; and, imploring God’s aid and direction in its accomplishment, do agree to form ourselves into a free and independent State, by the style and title of the State of Maine and do ordain and establish the following Constitution for the government of the same.

Massachusetts
Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. [See Amendments, Arts. XLVI and XLVIII.]
Article III. [As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
Vermont
Art. 3rd That all men have a natural and unalienable right, to worship Almighty God, according to the dictates of their own consciences and understandings, as in their opinion shall be regulated by the word of God: and that no man ought to, or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or erect or support any place of worship, or maintain any minister, contrary to the dictates of his conscience, nor can any man be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments, or peculia[r] mode of religious worship; and that no authority can, or ought to be vested in, or assumed by, any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner control the rights of conscience, in the free exercise of religious worship. Nevertheless, every sect or denomination of Christians ought to observe the Sabbath or Lord’s day, and keep up some sort of religious worship, which to them shall seem most agreeable to the revealed will of God.

Pennsylvania
WE, the people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

Unlike foundational documents of religions, the Bible is filled with prophecy, and prophecy is ABSOLUTE PROOF of the tuthfulness and accuracy and integrity of the Word of God.

But this is essentially using the BIble to prove itself, if using the life if Jesus as verification for prophecies. As it is, the prophecy is in the eye of the beholder. If you go by Hebrew prophecies, then Jesus failed. If you go by Christian ones — well, take the virgin birth one. In context, it’s speaking of someone who would be born at that time, to a young woman. It doesn’t specify any sort of special birth.

If the Bible can be believed,then ALL the Bible is ture. If there is one error, then the entire book is a useless work of fiction.

This is like saying that if science can be believed, then all science must be true. If there is one error, then science is useless and does nothing. It’s a false dictomoy. The Bible can have errors in simply for the fact that the people didn’t know as much at that time, such as the earth was round, or older than 6,000 years. Or that the sun went around the Earth. That doesn’t make the Bible useless.

The way to test if this is true is simple and you have nothing to loose but eternity in darkness. On the other hand, you have everything to gain.

So this should be done in order to escape hell? That makes the focus all on the person, and it’s then asked for selfish and fearful reasons — to escape punishment. It’s also a rewards system. You do this in order to get something out of it.

I’m curious about the quotes you provided in terms of the founding fathers.

George Washington, in his farewell address, said, “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”

Per religious tolerance.org: “Washington is known to have made some official statements of public piety, but this is not one of them. Though this assertion is very widely reported to have been said in Washington’s Farewell Address (17 September 1796), this is not actually the case, as any search of the documents would reveal.”

Patrick Henry, “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” (May 1776 Speech to the House o Burgesses).

Per both religioustolerance.org, and here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp, that quote is questionable, as it’s not found in any of Patrick Henry’s writings.

As it is, I believe the date you mean is 1765? I also read that some find the quote suspicious based on the fact that there was no “nation” until after the Revolutionary War was won and everything was settled.

James Madison, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, for from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity . . . to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” (1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia).

Per this link: http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/misq1.htm, it says that none of the James Madison biographers have run across this quote. Not only that, James Madison was a huge advocate of church/state seperation.

Thomas Jefferson, God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? [That] they are not to be violated but with His wrath?” (1802 at a Danbury, CT, Baptist Sunday School Association). Same speech in which he used the phrase “Wall of separation” meaning to keep the State out of the business of religion.

He was more deistic, and the quote above was in reference to slavery. Not only that, but he re-did the Bible, in terms of the sayings of Jesus without all the miracles and such.

thanks for your input… you’ll be unsurprised to know that i disagree wholehaetly with a lot of that… but can i maybe just focus on one part for now…

>>If the Bible can be believed,then ALL the Bible is ture. If there is one error, then the entire book is a useless work of fiction.

Do you mean that litterally? both OT and NT… eg if Jonah didnt survive for days in a whale or if Noah didn’t collect all the animals in the world in a big boat… then for you, its game over?

You are absolutely correct that if there was no ressurection there is no Christianity. The Apostle Paul agrees with you and said, “Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, “There is no resurrection of the dead”? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is without foundation, and so is your faith. In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified about God that He raised up Christ—whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Therefore those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished. If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone (1Cor 15:12-19 HCSB).

Proof of the ressurection is the Bible itself. Unlike religious books, the Bible’s account of creation isn’t spun like a fary tale but one that makes reasonable sense. It isn’t about fish or louts blossoms or corckadiles or giant tortises or elephants or &c, but is a reasonable and scientifically verifiable creation account. Its order of the creation is consistant with scientific knowledge. The biblical account isn’t one spun in fantacy like you find in the Samaritian and Babylonian and other accounts.

It is interesting to note that religion represents man’s attempts to reach up to God, to earn His approval and good will. They are man’s attempt to sway the scale so that our good works outweigh our shortcommings. Christianity is about the good will of God reaching down to man to raise him up because, since the fall, man is incapable of doing it himself. Chriatianity is about a compasionate God who cares for His creation and, inspite of their rebellion, He is reaching out to them to bestow on them His righteousness and eternal life. A free gift to those who believe. No strings attached.

Christianity is about the Golden Rule, stated over and over again throughout the New Testament. It is the love of God expressed through us, the ecclecia, the Church. Christians, although they may warn people of their sinful state and God’s disapproval, aren’t judgmental. It’s important to note that the Church is NOT all the people sitting in the pews each Sunday (or Saturday). It is made up of people in every denomination and of those whose shadow never crosses a churches threshold. It is estimated that only 10 to 20% of all those who profess to be Christians actually are. Our number is very small. I sometim wonder if after the rapture anyone will even notice—so many pasters and lay people won’t be taking the journey. And of us who are Christians we run the gammet of maturity. Some are grass green and barely know the way. Others are battle worn and sure. Each spends time as often as possible reading God’s Word. After all, “Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.”

Unlike foundational documents of religions, the Bible is filled with prophecy, and prophecy is ABSOLUTE PROOF of the tuthfulness and accuracy and integrity of the Word of God. If prophecy fails so does Christianity. Daniel alone is amazing in the accuracy of its predictions of the conquests and defeats of the Babylonians, Meads/Persians (the Bible even names Cyrus long before he arrived on the world scene), Greeks (especially Alexander the Great), Romans, etc. In Deuteronomy the fait of Israel is revealed in detail. In Jeremiah (especially chapter 30) the fait of Israel is prophecised. Ezekiel 37 describes the rebirth of the Jewish nation and 38 and 39 discusses the apoclypse. All this and much more are historically verifiable. Critics would love to be able to discredit the Bible, but they simply CANT! Truth is truth. Isaiah 53 tells of the suffering the Messiah would go through. Daniel 9 predicts exactly when Messiah would come and verse 26 reveals that he would be killed. In fact, there are over 600 prophecies fulfilled in Jesus alone—a mathamatical impossability, unless it is true.

If the Bible can be believed,then ALL the Bible is ture. If there is one error, then the entire book is a useless work of fiction. I the past 2000 years many have tried yet none have been able to sustain a discrediting of the Bible. Many who have attempted have instead, become Christians—CS Lewis, Hugh Ross and Walied Shoebat just to name a few from very different backgrounds.

1 Cor 2:12-16 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. For who has known the Lord’s mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. HCSB.

The way to test if this is true is simple and you have nothing to loose but eternity in darkness. On the other hand, you have everything to gain.

“God, if you are real and Christ exists, I assume You can make it known to me. So, I ask You, if you exist, to make it known to me. And if You do, I will believe You and trust You and follow You for the rest of my life.”

In any event, it’s completely irrelevant what the founders thought. They are no more prophets than any other natural person. What is important are the text of documents and interpretations to which we ourselves subscribe. If the founders had wished to establish a specifically Christian nation, they did so in a curious way: by explicitly excluding any nontrivial mention of Christianity, God or religion, explicitly stating that the authority of the Constitution comes from the people and explicitly prohibiting the government from establishing a religion.

And why lie? As you note, there is ample evidence that most of the nascent United States was Christian; Specific sects of Christianity were legally established by many of the individual states.

Again, if you take the time and read the preambles to the constitutions of the original 13 states, you will find that each and every one of then bases their state governments of the beliefs and practices of Christianity.

This is again a lie. I took some time…

Rhode Island, “We, the people of the State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy…”

Religious, and probably unconstitutional, but there’s no mention of Christ or Christianity.

Massachusetts: “We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe…” Again, no mention of Christianity.

New York: “We the People of the State of New York, grateful to
Almighty God for our Freedom, in order to secure its blessings, do establish this Constitution.”

Vermont: No preamble! Article 3 does establish (stupidly and unconstitutionally) acceptable Christian practice.

Maine: “We the people of Maine… acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe…”

I stopped checking. Other than Vermont, not a single preamble or constitution even mentions Christianity, not a single one specifically privileges Christianity.

One can only assume by these sorts of trivially transparent lies, readily disprovable by anyone with a search engine, that you are indifferent to the truth: that, in Frankfurt’s sense, you are bullshitting us.

Patrick Henry, “It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, people of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” (May 1776 Speech to the House o Burgesses).

James Madison, “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, for from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity . . . to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” (1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia).

Thomas Jefferson, God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? [That] they are not to be violated but with His wrath?” (1802 at a Danbury, CT, Baptist Sunday School Association). Same speech in which he used the phrase “Wall of separation” meaning to keep the State out of the business of religion.

Samuel Adams, “He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all . . . Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” (State House in Philadelphia).

“Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of Deity . . . and leading them in the study and practices of the exalted virtues of the Christian system” (October 4, 1790).

Again, if you take the time and read the preambles to the constitutions of the original 13 states, you will find that each and every one of then bases their state governments of the beliefs and practices of Christianity.

His resurrection is legally provable. But that isn’t the answer to anything. The root subject isn’t the resurrection but faith. His sheep know His voice and they follow Him. To everyone else, this all sounds as foolishness. Yet you search because everyone is called though few respond. Most who warm church pews are nothing more than wells without water, clouds carried by the wind. That is probably the source of your confusion and doubt.

You also seem to be confusing faith with religion and Catholicism. The practices of the teachings of Christendom and the teaching of the scriptures are not the same. True Christians are taught to love both their neighbors and their enemies and to pray for those who despitefully use them—that isn’t an attribute you find in most prominent denominations.

If truth is what you’re honestly seeking, the answer is simple and you have absolutely nothing to loose but a few moments of time. Simply ask the truth giver, God himself, to reveal himself to you and to give you knowledge of him. If He does, your whole life will change. If He doesn’t, then there’s no need to continue wasting your time continuing your search for a God who doesn’t exist.

My hope is that you find your answers while there is still time (in the spiritual sense, that is).

I believed that too, because I heard it from every pastor whose church I attended. It’s a very common line that keeps fundamentalists and even more moderate Christians thinking of atheists as the “dreaded other” - someone who is lost, angry, scary, and morally corrupt. No one wants to become one of those awful “others” so they get “vaccinated” early on against non-belief.

If religious authorities and even the bible did not teach so much that is negative (and blatantly untrue) about atheists, we’d have a lot more harmonious and happy society. That’s the beauty and the promise of our new-found Internet technology - it connects so many of us who would never connect in our daily lives, and wipes out those negative stereotypes that keep us apart and afraid of each other.

I was wrong. I’ve met and worked with many atheists and agnostics who want to live a life with great moral standards.

Good for you for recognizing that! Just about every Christian (hard line and not) I’ve come across who makes the effort to truly understand the atheist/agnostic viewpoint comes to this same conclusion you did. I find it very promising for the future of our society.

Anyway, I haven’t seen any Athest community centers or anythin like that in my city, Cincinnati, OH. If so, I’d check it out. Critical THinking sundays sounds interesting. But leave room for those interested in art and music (like me!!!) too!