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	<title>Comments on: Total Depravity of Humanity – The Outer Darkness</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-39575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-39575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you Helen. Feel free to stick around and read a bit here to find out just who we are, who we were, and how we got to our conclusions. 
And thanks for not taking the all-too-usual, &quot;Here you poor idjits. Let me set you aright,&quot; approach.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Helen. Feel free to stick around and read a bit here to find out just who we are, who we were, and how we got to our conclusions.<br />
And thanks for not taking the all-too-usual, &#8220;Here you poor idjits. Let me set you aright,&#8221; approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-39573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Helen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 22:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-39573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I stumbled upon your post whilst looking for something else. I mean no offense to you, quite the opposite. I have struggled with the &#039;Problem of Hell&#039; for a while and have found some consolation that I wish to share with you. I hope you don&#039;t mind me posting a link to a former pastor who also struggled as you did. 

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/pastor_confession.html

There are also many other wonderful, comforting articles on this site. I believe that as Peter said..God wills all to come to repentance and so life. As such, I am comfortable believing that God&#039;s will be done. Jesus Christ, saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe.

God bless you and all whom you care for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I stumbled upon your post whilst looking for something else. I mean no offense to you, quite the opposite. I have struggled with the &#8216;Problem of Hell&#8217; for a while and have found some consolation that I wish to share with you. I hope you don&#8217;t mind me posting a link to a former pastor who also struggled as you did. </p>
<p><a href="http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/pastor_confession.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/pastor_confession.html</a></p>
<p>There are also many other wonderful, comforting articles on this site. I believe that as Peter said..God wills all to come to repentance and so life. As such, I am comfortable believing that God&#8217;s will be done. Jesus Christ, saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe.</p>
<p>God bless you and all whom you care for.</p>
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		<title>By: BigHouse</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BigHouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Mar 2009 13:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul is wrecking trains in other threads too...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul is wrecking trains in other threads too&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: orDover</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32741</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[orDover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32741</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ha! I hadn&#039;t realized that Quester. Good observation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha! I hadn&#8217;t realized that Quester. Good observation.</p>
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		<title>By: Quester</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[orDover,

You give Paul too much credit. His beliefs don&#039;t even make sense within his assumptions. For if one is to posit a lake of fire that burns without consuming for time without ending, one can not also hold to the law of cause and effect. He hasn&#039;t made it all the way to coherent, let alone defensible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>orDover,</p>
<p>You give Paul too much credit. His beliefs don&#8217;t even make sense within his assumptions. For if one is to posit a lake of fire that burns without consuming for time without ending, one can not also hold to the law of cause and effect. He hasn&#8217;t made it all the way to coherent, let alone defensible.</p>
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		<title>By: orDover</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[orDover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 23:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I beg forgiveness from the “gods” of the English language here. Who have so graciously and humbly attacked my question rather than provide a legitimate response.&lt;/i&gt;

To be perfectly honest, you did not really present a question to be answered. You have your personal opinion, which you even admitted yourself. What can anyone say against it? I believe you are wrong. I believe you are unnecessarily extrapolating. That&#039;s about it. 

&lt;i&gt;Assuming this creation is a typology of what is to come. And the theory that there is no hell. It seems to me to fly in the face of our reality whereas all of creation is bound by the laws of cause and effect.&lt;/i&gt;

Why would we assume there is anything to come? If there is anything to come, why would we assume the same sort of laws apply there as here. But you want those things given a priori. Okay.

&lt;i&gt;Therefore assuming I have the right to choose the action I wish ( which I most certainly do). &lt;/i&gt;

The concept of &quot;free will&quot; is in no way a certainty. In fact, the most current research suggests that it is merely a construct of the brain.

&lt;i&gt;It stands to reason thet I also have to endure the consequences of my choice&lt;/i&gt;

This very law is played over and over everyday of our lives. I overeat and I get fat. I break the law and I suffer the consequences, I plant seed and a flower grows.

If the lake of fire ( hell is the grave and all are subject to that) is the ultimate end of those who persist in their choices and Heaven the ultimate end of the others. .&lt;/i&gt;

But only if you first accept that:
1. There is an afterlife
2. The same rules apply there as here
3. There is such a thing as free will
4. Our actions in this life will carry over into the next

What is your basis for all of these assumptions?

&lt;i&gt;Why is this so unbelieveable?&lt;/i&gt;

Because it&#039;s based on a slew of unproven and unsupported assumptions. 

&lt;i&gt;If the desenters are wrong, holy cow I hope they have some power to stand in my stead at the judgement ( assuming it exists!)&lt;/i&gt;

What? Is this a thinly veiled Pascal&#039;s Wager?

&lt;i&gt;Listen I know Religion is full of crap. It has turned the Bible into a mockery. But something tells me the book is right, Jesus is right. The problem is corrupt men and their agenda’s that is wrong.

At least when I was all alone in my darkest hour that is what MY heart said to me&lt;/i&gt;

Ah. So, you have no real foundation of evidence for your ponderings? This is all based on &quot;something&quot; which tells you that the Bible is true, and the secret stirring of your heart? What about those who feel the same about the Koran. Should I listen to them, or should I listen to you? 

Look, Paul, if we accept all of the assumptions that you want us to accept, then yes, your logic makes sense. But we don&#039;t. We see no evidence for an afterlife, so we don&#039;t assume there is one. We see no evidence that there is hell, so we don&#039;t assume there is one. To get us on board, you&#039;re going to have to first prove all of your assumptions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I beg forgiveness from the “gods” of the English language here. Who have so graciously and humbly attacked my question rather than provide a legitimate response.</i></p>
<p>To be perfectly honest, you did not really present a question to be answered. You have your personal opinion, which you even admitted yourself. What can anyone say against it? I believe you are wrong. I believe you are unnecessarily extrapolating. That&#8217;s about it. </p>
<p><i>Assuming this creation is a typology of what is to come. And the theory that there is no hell. It seems to me to fly in the face of our reality whereas all of creation is bound by the laws of cause and effect.</i></p>
<p>Why would we assume there is anything to come? If there is anything to come, why would we assume the same sort of laws apply there as here. But you want those things given a priori. Okay.</p>
<p><i>Therefore assuming I have the right to choose the action I wish ( which I most certainly do). </i></p>
<p>The concept of &#8220;free will&#8221; is in no way a certainty. In fact, the most current research suggests that it is merely a construct of the brain.</p>
<p><i>It stands to reason thet I also have to endure the consequences of my choice</i></p>
<p>This very law is played over and over everyday of our lives. I overeat and I get fat. I break the law and I suffer the consequences, I plant seed and a flower grows.</p>
<p>If the lake of fire ( hell is the grave and all are subject to that) is the ultimate end of those who persist in their choices and Heaven the ultimate end of the others. .</p>
<p>But only if you first accept that:<br />
1. There is an afterlife<br />
2. The same rules apply there as here<br />
3. There is such a thing as free will<br />
4. Our actions in this life will carry over into the next</p>
<p>What is your basis for all of these assumptions?</p>
<p><i>Why is this so unbelieveable?</i></p>
<p>Because it&#8217;s based on a slew of unproven and unsupported assumptions. </p>
<p><i>If the desenters are wrong, holy cow I hope they have some power to stand in my stead at the judgement ( assuming it exists!)</i></p>
<p>What? Is this a thinly veiled Pascal&#8217;s Wager?</p>
<p><i>Listen I know Religion is full of crap. It has turned the Bible into a mockery. But something tells me the book is right, Jesus is right. The problem is corrupt men and their agenda’s that is wrong.</p>
<p>At least when I was all alone in my darkest hour that is what MY heart said to me</i></p>
<p>Ah. So, you have no real foundation of evidence for your ponderings? This is all based on &#8220;something&#8221; which tells you that the Bible is true, and the secret stirring of your heart? What about those who feel the same about the Koran. Should I listen to them, or should I listen to you? </p>
<p>Look, Paul, if we accept all of the assumptions that you want us to accept, then yes, your logic makes sense. But we don&#8217;t. We see no evidence for an afterlife, so we don&#8217;t assume there is one. We see no evidence that there is hell, so we don&#8217;t assume there is one. To get us on board, you&#8217;re going to have to first prove all of your assumptions.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 22:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I apologize for my apparent lack of grammatical finesse. I beg forgiveness from the “gods” of the English language here. Who have so graciously and humbly attacked my question rather than provide a legitimate response. I suppose if it presents difficulty to some attacke is the only response.
Incidentally, I’m not sure if “shitty” is a legitimate word taught in English as a first language. So with regards to its use is that just laziness or….? Ask Quester he apparrently is an expert in the English language as well. LOL]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I apologize for my apparent lack of grammatical finesse. I beg forgiveness from the “gods” of the English language here. Who have so graciously and humbly attacked my question rather than provide a legitimate response. I suppose if it presents difficulty to some attacke is the only response.<br />
Incidentally, I’m not sure if “shitty” is a legitimate word taught in English as a first language. So with regards to its use is that just laziness or….? Ask Quester he apparrently is an expert in the English language as well. LOL</p>
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		<title>By: Quester</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32733</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32733</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[*laughs* &quot;It&#039;d&quot;, not &quot;It&#039;s&quot;. &#039;Pride goeth&#039;, and all that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*laughs* &#8220;It&#8217;d&#8221;, not &#8220;It&#8217;s&#8221;. &#8216;Pride goeth&#8217;, and all that.</p>
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		<title>By: Quester</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32732</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Quester]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 21:54:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32732</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The guy thinks the Bible needs religion to turn it into a mockery, and you think he should be able to handle complete sentences? Personally, I assume English isn&#039;t his first language. It&#039;s help explain his inability to read before writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The guy thinks the Bible needs religion to turn it into a mockery, and you think he should be able to handle complete sentences? Personally, I assume English isn&#8217;t his first language. It&#8217;s help explain his inability to read before writing.</p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32728</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2009 20:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/11/30/total-depravity-of-humanity-%e2%80%93%c2%a0the-outer-darkness/#comment-32728</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What is it about people that makes them think they can communicate with shitty grammar?

Is it laziness, stupidity, some combination of both?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it about people that makes them think they can communicate with shitty grammar?</p>
<p>Is it laziness, stupidity, some combination of both?</p>
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