Praying my way to losing faith

December 3, 2007

There was a lady in our church who developed a mental illness. She was a terrific gal and, of course, I prayed diligently for her. So did a lot of folks. However, she did not get better. For whatever reason, at the time this struck me hard. As a result, I began to carefully sift through 25 years of praying. Not just my praying, but prayers of others also. And I realized that, as far as I was aware, no prayer had ever been answered in a clear, unmistakable way. No cripple ever walked, no blind person gained sight, no deaf person started hearing, nothing. Oh sure, there were some folks who beat cancer and other things like that but nothing outside the realm of medical probability. There were other coincidences too but nothing one could put a finger on and say, “There! That was outside the realm of the natural or possible.”

It became obvious to me that I was talking to the air- no answers, no response of any kind. Initially I read several books on prayer, on the existence of God, and on struggling with unbelief. None of them dared to go where I was. They all pulled up short and scurried off into comforting, yet unsatisfactory answers.

Being a scientist, I dug into the literature for any studies on the efficacy of prayer. Lo and behold, there were actual, controlled studies that had been done. And the result? Drum roll, please….. nada, nil, zip, zilch, zero… no efficacy at all.

I started to look at the lives of Christians compared to the rest of the world. I looked at things that could be distinctly measured like comparisons of divorce rates, criminal activity, overall health, family feuds, you name it. No difference could be found between any group of Christians and any group of non-Christians. Wait. I am lying. Catholics did have a lower divorce rate- not hugely lower, but significant. However this is not surprising given their stance on divorce. I can’t think of any other differences that were notable.

In short, I couldn’t find anything to indicate any substantive reality behind the Faith. No changes in the lives of believers compared with non-believers, no miracles, no answers to prayer. Nothing.

[A short interlude to say something about the way I am deep down:

I have an inability to lie to myself. If something seems wrong, or is wrong, I just can't ignore it or sweep it away or tell myself it’s really all right. It would stick in my mind and not go away. By and by, I'd have to deal with it, whatever it was.
I always wanted to know what was true about everything and anything. I didn't care what the truth turned out to be, I just wanted to find the truth and then try to get on the right side of it.
It seems I’m possessed of a strong streak of skepticism about almost everything. Mountains of evidence are often needed to convince me of just about anything. And once I adopt a position it’s no light task to dislodge me from it.]

So now I was facing a mountain of evidence that I’d accumulated. Then came the critical question for me - would I accept what I now saw as the truth or would I push it away? I couldn’t push it away, so I was stuck. In an ironic twist, I found myself in a version of Martin Luther’s “Here I stand. I can do no other.”

Over a number of weeks, I slowly let go of the Faith. I “prayed” a bit. Those “prayers” all said, one way or another:

“God, if you’re real, do something. Anything. You ought to have no trouble showing me something that will convince me beyond doubt. Heck, I’ll gladly toss my mountains of evidence, my doubts, all that stuff, if you’ll just do anything.”

Even after letting go of the Faith, I continued saying that “prayer” from time to time. I still wanted there to be a supreme being who will, in the end, take care of us and deal with all the things too big for us. There was still a longing for something eternal, and of ultimate, universal significance. But since I’m now sure it’s not there to be had, I find joy where I am and don’t think so much for what another day has in store.

So here I am. I cannot believe anymore. Fortunately, once I accepted this new life, it was fairly easy to build a life without an “invisible friend”. The future isn’t frightening and life goes on.

- LeoPardus

[Adapted from From Fundy to Orthodox to Apostate]

Entry Filed under: LeoPardus. Tags: beliefs, christianity, de-conversion, deconversion, faith, prayer, religion.

120 Comments Add your own

1. Mark | December 3, 2007 at 10:49 pm

Hi Leo. I am curious if you would like to have a dialog about this. I am a Christian and cannot help but appreciate your honesty and courage about this process of de-conversion. If you are interested in holding your conclusion loosely for a little longer, I would like to learn more about your process over a blog exchange. I promise to look at things from your perspective and see what you see before I offer anything in reply. If you indeed are correct and there is no God, I will join you. For real. I don’t expect you to make the same commitment, just to get to reality together. Cool?
2. lpkalal | December 3, 2007 at 11:14 pm

I actually don’t think the purpose of praying is for prayer to be answered with a Yes. I think the purpose of prayer is to draw closer to God. If the purpose was to have him deliver, then He wouldn’t be God, but a cosmic Santa. The book The Papa Prayer by Larry Crabb is helpful if you are interested. See http://www.newwayministries.org.
3. Tim Kurek | December 3, 2007 at 11:44 pm

I am very glad that you are a person that demands honesty of yourself and I am impressed by your logical and concise blog. I would however like to share that I have seen, with my own eyes, radical radical answers to prayer. I am sorry that these things haven’t been answered for you, but I wonder why… I think that, that would be the question I would want answered more than anything. I am praying (and I know that it will be answered) that you get that answer you have been seeking. Until then I would will keep up with your blogs and I hope that we can be friends on this crazy “www” thing we are on!

tim kurek
http://UriahMinistries.wordpress.com
4. jeremy | December 4, 2007 at 12:45 am

Sometimes when we pray, God waits. Sometimes when we pray, God moves heaven and earth, and sometimes when we pray God says No.

When I was diagnosed with AIDS 15 years ago, I was part of a study on prayer. 20 patients were chosen. 10 of those patients were told that they were being prayed for, the other ten were told nothing. The ten who were told nothing died within 5 years. Out of the other 10, 2 men still live, I am one of them, 15 years later.

I read your site daily, and I don’t always agree with you and that’s ok, but on this topic I hold my opinion, prayer is something I have learned to do, and do well, I don’t expect from God, yet I have faith in God, that’s why I hold a BA in Religious Studies.

Sometimes, God’s answer to prayer is NO.

And sometimes there is no explanation as to why God would let someone suffer illness, but approached from the right perspective, for everything there is a season and a time.

I approach suffering in the same way. I’ve had an extra 15 years of life, because I believed in something greater than myself. And I am alive, so someone up there likes me. God is not finished with me yet.

I just had to say something here.

Pax
Jeremy
5. Rachel | December 4, 2007 at 1:40 am

Leo:

I hear ya. Really, I do. A couple comments:

I think there’s a bit of a problem with evaluating the Almighty with empirical data within the constraints of human reason. We can’t know all truth through reason and the scientific method (much as our post-enlightenment minds would like to think so). And let’s face it, us trying to figure out God is like an ant trying to perform gallbladder surgery (sorry, I’m a nurse :)). But your point is taken, and I have to say that I’ve often thought about those same things.

As far as not getting what you pray for, a couple things have occurred to me recently. We think we’re the only ones with unanswered prayers or seemingly unchanged lives, but it’s pretty well-documented in the Bible. Jesus himself prayed “thy kingdom come” knowing full well that it was going to be a while. There are Psalms full of complaining and cries of, “how long, oh Lord?” Paul, even after his dramatic conversion, wrote, “what a wretched man I am!” and wrote letters to various churches full of “Christians behaving badly.” It seems like the NT is full of people who become Christians and still act like idiots, but that didn’t stop Paul from proclaiming victory in Christ.

This by no means proves anything, but I think speaks somewhat to the human side of these questions. For every unanswered prayer or gripe against God that we have, somebody in the Bible had the same thing, but the Bible doesn’t seem to have as much of a problem holding the existence of God and the times where he doesn’t seem to show up in tension. But I guess all that is irrelevant if you don’t believe the Bible to begin with.

Does that make any sense? Maybe 12:30 in the morning isn’t the best time to be rambling about these things…
6. Grace | December 4, 2007 at 8:00 am

I think sometimes we can miss the supernatural, by looking for the spectacular One of the laws of the universe pertains to Cause and Effect.

If you’ve prayed, SOMETHING has happened SOMEWHERE…even if that ’something’ is a shift in your own heart and mind.

When I was a Christian and in ministry, I was asked to pray for a young witch who had contracted full blown AIDS from being ritualistically raped when she tried to leave the Coven.

Interesting thing happened. According to all of her tests, she was healed. However, since the CDC doesn’t believe HIV/AIDS is ‘cureable”, they wouldn’t take her name off the list - even with documentation from her doctor.

As a now non-Christian who still prays :), I’ve come to look at prayer as an energy exchange. It is the pathway through which my energy flows with the Divine. I use words because they provide the symbols for my INTENTIONS. Spirit uses ‘words’ because that’s one way I interpret energy

It helps to remember that The Creator is NOT a giant humanoid type figure somewhere ‘out there’. Godd is pure energy…unbounded, unlimited, unconditional LOVE and LIFE. A love that resides within each and evey cell of each and every body on the face of the planet. We are literally made up of GodStuff - every one of us.

To pray for someone else, we are seeking to exchange and/or change that energy within a person. It helps to look at the issue holistically - just because an ‘answer’ isn’t immediately apparent doesn’t mean there wasn’t an answer. Cause and Effect - there WAS a response from God. Was it what we asked for or what we expected? Maybe….maybe not. Wonder if the FIRST thing that needed to happen in a person who is being prayed for (let’s say, for arthritis) is that they need to FORGIVE someone. Cause and Effect….
7. qmonkey | December 4, 2007 at 8:36 am

>>>Sometimes when we pray, God waits. Sometimes when we pray, God moves heaven and earth, and sometimes when we pray God says No.

Thats exactly the same response you will get if you pray to a teddy bear.

Leo - good post - very thoughtful… interesting turn on the Luther ‘here i stand’ quote.
8. robd | December 4, 2007 at 10:38 am

Leopardus,
I used to have similar thoughts about praying for the ill.
But then I wondered:
If God is so powerful he can cure all ills,
why is he so bad at PREVENTIVE medicine?
Some religious people answered in the line of:
“whatever happens is Gods will; His ways cannot be known”
but I consider that a non-answer.
I have also heard really nasty remarks like
-she has a bad disease - she must have done a terrible sin.
All this was certainly a factor driving me away fron christianity.
9. m | December 4, 2007 at 11:06 am

I have noticed that if anyone shows any kind of questioning (why?, what?, who?), and the slowly turning away from one’s “faith”, there are those that will try their best to “keep the person”. For me, I do not pray, but mediate to the universe at large. It is more of a way of going back over the day, tomorrow, the day before. One’s journey in faith, no matter what it is, is a personal journey. And anyone that, over time, has evolved to me has found the answers in which they are looking for. Faith should never be stagnant, ever. One’s faith should continue to evolve with the person, or else there is no personal growth.
10. Guna | December 4, 2007 at 11:07 am

Leo,
I feel so sorry, and I hear what you’re saying.

Prayer is so subjective, there’s actually very little theology written on it, which i think is a good thing.

Well, i can completely understand your reasons for ‘leaving the faith’, and I won’t blame you (your pastor/teacher, maybe, but not you).

If its any consolation, that if you had at some point asked Jesus to be your Saviour, i still feel slightly excited knowing that your decision to leave the faith because God hasn’t answered prayer with expected results won’t affect the fact that I might still see you in heaven some day. the same goes to all dear de-converts here.

I do hope God does something to turn you back to Him.

Continued salvation doesn’t depend on continued faith (dear calvinist friends, kindly reserve comment on that statement).
11. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 11:52 am

Mark:
I hang here a lot, so please type away. I’ll respond.

lpkalal:

So when you read the Bible and it’s full of people praying and getting clear results, and the Bible says things like that we are to pray and not doubt and God will answer, we are to understand that the purpose of prayer isn’t for God to answer.

When we hear people praying and expecting answers, when we hear people going on about the answers they get to prayer, when prayers are constantly going out for healing, jobs, salvation, and so on, we are to understand that the purpose of prayer isn’t for God to answer.

When the Bible says nowhere that the purpose of prayer is to draw nearer to God, we are to understand that the purpose of prayer is to draw nearer to God. The God who doesn’t answer prayer.

No matter what the Bible says, no matter what the early church fathers say, no matter what we always pray for, the purpose is not for God to deliver.

Larry Crabb knows better.

You’re parroting what you’ve heard from the pulpit and books. You’re not taking the Bible at face value. You’re apologizing for a no-show God who can’t deliver.
12. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 11:54 am

Tim Kurek:

I have seen, with my own eyes, radical radical answers to prayer.

Fine. You have an ‘in’ with the deity, have him give me a call.
13. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 11:56 am

Jeremy:

http://godisimaginary.com/video8.htm

You don’t have to wait around for the vidoe. You can just read the text.
14. wayne | December 4, 2007 at 1:00 pm

LeoPardus,

seems to me you already made up your mind as to your answer to your prayer. Is this a true statement? I know there are times when I do.

And there are plenty of people on this blog that could reason with you and give good counsel if you so desired.

regards,\

wayne
15. rhea | December 4, 2007 at 1:07 pm

Hi, I just wanted to say that I have compassion for what you are dealing with. No judgment, just acknowledgement and a listening ear, because it’s something I struggle with too. Take care,

Rhea
rhea7.wordpress.com
16. Erika | December 4, 2007 at 1:14 pm

I used to find it very frustrating, when doing an “hour of prayer” as they called it at our Wednesday Night teen worship service, to feel no sense of fulfillment from just rambling off every thought, plea, etc that came to my head. The mytics that I used to hang with believed that God gave you the words to pray, which I also thought was a strange paradox because if he gave me to words, then why was I even taking time out to do it when he already knows what I’m going to say. It almost felt like I was a pawn in this big superpower ideaology that made me think that I was never good enough for God, but I was so much better than all the other unsaved folk out there.
17. Thinking Ape | December 4, 2007 at 1:16 pm

The majority of the Christian responses to this post are understandably and expectedly compassionate, yet they refuse to convey the universe of reality and instead equate their prayer life to some sort of ephereal Oprah-type “secret” of the universe that is enveloped in self-delusion and wishful thinking.

But…but… I agree, in part, with Guna,

Prayer is so subjective, there’s actually very little theology written on it, which i think is a good thing.

In combination with Leopardus,

So when you read the Bible and it’s full of people praying and getting clear results

Take a look at the Jewish scriptures - talking to God was definitely an elitist endeavour, but it was “there.” Not only could you ask things from God, but you could bargain with him and change his mind - a notion that is heretical in today’s church!
And then hear the relative silence about prayer in the Christian scriptures. What does Jesus say about prayer - we know he prayed and he even gave an example prayer (you would think that if God himself gave a prayer, we would take heed to study and repeat it at least 5 times a day!). And what does this prayer from the Lord himself say? IT ISN’T ALL ABOUT YOU!

Quite honestly, contemporary Chrisitan prayers are either unanswered Jewish prayers, or self-indulgent occultic meditations. We ask for the betterment of our lives and of the lives around us, when the entire theme of the Lord’s prayer is the betterment of the Kingdom of God.

The prayers of old are over not because God decided to shut down the wishing fountain, but because those old prayers lie in the mythical realm of a couple authors, such as the incredible literary master, the Yahwist, or “J”.
18. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 2:16 pm

Rachel:

Yes, some folks in the Bible did not get what they prayed for. (Paul’s thorn in the flesh being a real clear example.) BUT … A lot of folks in the Bible clearly did get what they prayed for. (Healed blindness, bringing the dead back to life….)

I could get along with some “No” answers, if there were some clear “Yes” answers at times. But when all we get is zero response, I have to conclude that there is no one on the other end of the line.
19. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 2:19 pm

Guna:

Thanks. Very kind response. Just one statement I want to correct.

Prayer is so subjective, there’s actually very little theology written on it,

???? There’s tons written on it. How many books do you want me to list?
20. womeninthevalley | December 4, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Hello, this is my first time on this blog. The titled saddened me a little. Cant say I truly know how your feeling but can understand how one can lose faith. I would like to tell you I almost did as well and what saved me was when I attended church and the Pastor suggested writing your prayer request down incl the date then this way u have a running track then date when they come to pass that helped me out and now my writing have changed from my words to His words! He has answered my prayers some right away some not as soon. maybe start a journal if you havent already they’re may have been some prayers you have prayed and not realized they were answered. This blog alone bc of the topic is answering quit a few I think. by me journalling I did realize and see that God so hears our prayers I dont agree w/the person that wrote ‘I think the purpose of prayer is to draw closer to God. If the purpose was to have him deliver, then He wouldn’t be God, but a cosmic Santa.’ God does give us the desire of our hearts but we must seek his desire as well…his before our own desires and that makes Him our FATHER. Its unfortunate that you have walked away which I dont really think you have or you wouldnt have this blog up. Your seeking and searching for answers and that is what God wants but your life isnt by chance nor the things you are doing. Prayer is powerful and ones spirit must be open to receive that power. I agree w/the person that wrote to question yourself why havent your prayers been answered. Alot of times we want our needs met before we are willing to meet anyone elses needs frankly to believe there is no God is crazy….Look around you He is everywhere all around us. Instead of trying to find him in books find him in your heart sit somewhere anywhere evaluate you take a long look in the mirror have u released yourself fully & completely to Him? Have you given your “invisible friend” as you put it access complete access to you. This Christian walk isnt as easy as some preceive it to be and some things are easier said than done but its real its a lifestyle and one that changes. I know what he has done for me and I know the time will come before you leave this place that you will have your own encounter. I wouldnt give up my faith because my prayers havent been answered that you can remember or know of. Reading some of these comments have inspired me to pray even harder so for that your job was done and I thank you. You are doing exactly what God wants w/o even knowing it! The person w/AIDS that was given 15 extra yrs to live just like Hezekiah! that is amazing! God is real and he does hear.

I will also say there are a lot of misguided people out here that make things harder than they are. God is simple not complex we look for our own type of packaging when God is out side the package. Lets not get twisted up in the law/rule and regulations and miss him altogether. The first and only thing he asks of us is that we be saved and welcome in our hearts we give him permission to clear away our mess. Logic wont get you far w/God he just doesnt make sense. I am trying now to give up logic bc I too ask quite a bit of questions and some I find right in his word. I have prayed that he give me a better understanding and eyes to see and read his word and that has been answered for me. Everything in our Christian walk will not always line up or make sense but we all must realize God has timing for everything. I know w/o doubt things will turn around when you least expect it to and you will be writing something that will bring the hardest person back to Christ as you have been turned around.
21. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 2:27 pm

wayne:

seems to me you already made up your mind as to your answer to your prayer. Is this a true statement?

What I can say is that so far there has been no clearly recognizable response. By that I mean a visitation, miracle, revelation, dream, or some other such supernatural event that I can’t miss. I figure that an all-powerful, all-knowing being ought to be able to come up with something that can get through my thick skull. After all, he apparently got through the thick skull of Saul of Tarsus.

And there are plenty of people on this blog that could reason with you and give good counsel if you so desired.

Reason and counsel all amount to one thing. Apologies for a God who never shows up. I left the Christian religion because there was no God. If someone wants me to rejoin, more apologies won’t do it. Someone will have to show up with a real God. Not one that “hides”.
22. roopster | December 4, 2007 at 2:27 pm

The majority of the Christian responses to this post are understandably and expectedly compassionate

I did notice this trend also.

In my 30+ years of being a Christian, I have 1 example of something that could possibly be an answer to prayer. However, it could also be a weird coincidence. The reality is, there should be dozens of things I could point to not ONE issue with a 75% probability.

James said the effective prayer of a righteous man avails much. Loved that scripture. However, there’s no evidence to back it.

Of course, we have all the fantastic stories from the evangelists and preachers (especially in the charismatic/pentecostal camp). However, the character in the movie, The Beautiful Mind, also had great stories of espionage that he was 100% convinced were real.

Gideon put out a fleece and God proved himself. He never responded to any of my fleeces.

CHALLENGE TO CHRISTIANS: Please post your stories of answers to prayer in your personal life here or on your blog with a linkback. We would love to hear them.

Paul
23. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 2:37 pm

Jeremy:

I’ve had an extra 15 years of life, because I believed in something greater than myself.

I did AIDS research. The presence of the virus is not always fatal. It depends on your own body’s response, the state of your immune system, the type and level of response your immune system mounts toward the virus, the amount of initial exposure, the number of exposures, and still more factors.

The thing that is amazing to me is not that you and one other lived in your group, but that none lived in the other. That’s out of the statistical norm. Especially given that HAART treatment came into being within 5 years of the time the ‘prayer trial’ you mention started.

And I am alive, so someone up there likes me.

Have you ever looked at this from the perspective of those who died?
“I’m dead so someone up there hates me.” ????
“I’m dead so no one up there cares.” ???
“I’m dead so someone up there is rather capricious in his likes/dislikes.” ???
24. onthuhlist | December 4, 2007 at 2:41 pm

You state, “Being a scientist, I dug into the literature for any studies on the efficacy of prayer. Lo and behold, there were actual, controlled studies that had been done. And the result? Drum roll, please….. nada, nil, zip, zilch, zero… no efficacy at all.”

This brings up an interesting presupposition. It is presupposing that science is a more accurate yardstick for measuring truth than faith. Now, I know this sounds like a cop-out, but think about this logically for a second. “The truth”, whatever that may be, is out there, and is objective, even if it is not discoverable. The truth about life, about prayer, about our existence, and whether or not our lives possess purpose, or whether our longing for purpose is meaningless in itself. The truth is self-existent…even if not a single person believes in it…even if it lies undiscovered for eons.

The only way to completely ascertain an objective truth is…(to quote a phrase, “drum roll, please”)…by faith. Any other means of ascertaining truth has the capability for error. For example, science relies on what we know and have observed. But science is always changing as we learn more. When we say that something is “scientificially proven”, we need to clarify which science we’re talking about. Are we talking about the science of 2007, the science of 2099, the science of 1700 (when flies spontaneously generated from meat) or the science of 1342 (when the earth was flat). Science changes. And as such, using science as a means to judge truth is like using a rubber yardstick to judge whether the golden yardstick is accurate.

What I mean when I say that faith is the only means to ascertain the truth is this. If someone tells you something that is absolutely true, then the only way you’re going to know for sure that it’s truth and to walk in the way of that truth is by taking a leap of faith, and believing in it. And the only way to do this is to first HEAR the truth. That’s why scripture says that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by a word of Christ (some translations incorrectly say “the word of God” instead of “a word of Christ”).

So what if the creator of the universe reveals “the truth” to us, and it doesn’t strike us as “the truth”. Is that because “the truth” is not true, or is it because we need to make an adjustment in our thinking? The danger is that we will use one of our rubber rulers (science, our feelings, what we heard “the experts” say, what influential people in our lives have said, or even what seems to “neatly fit” into a worldview that appeals to us) to explain away the truth and adopt an untrue viewpoint.

That being said, let’s examine prayer from the standpoint of scripture, not science. A scientific study of prayer will only look at prayer’s effectiveness in getting what we ask for. But scripture has some things to say about the purpose of prayer:

1. Jesus taught us by his example to pray, “not my will, but yours [heavenly Father's] be done.” This demonstrates that a proper balance of prayer recognizes that what God wants trumps what we want.

2. Many scriptural illustrations (Job, Joseph, Jesus) show people going through great hardships and suffering that may seem purposeless from the individual’s point of view, but from God’s point of view have a purpose. It is possible those purposes may not be revealed in our lifetime. Consider someone who dies of cancer, despite all the prayers to save their life. The prophet Isaiah said, “Righteous people die…and no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil to come.” But Depeche Mode looks at the same circumstance and concludes that “God has a sick sense of humor.” Who is looking at the circumstance correctly? Who has “the truth”? What about the missionary who spent an entire lifetime without a single convert, and who never lived to see that his efforts had prepared that area for a great revival when future missionaries came? We almost NEVER see God’s plan. That’s why faith is MANDATORY in order to walk in the level of God’s purposes. That’s why Jesus said we have to DENY OURSELVES in order to follow him.

3. Concerning prayer, “the truth” is not what we feel, whether we feel we are talking to the air or whether we feel like we are talking to someone right next to us. The bottom line is that “the truth” simply exists. The truth simply exists that God hears the prayer of a repentant person. Yes, the hearing of our prayers is conditional. Scripture says God will not hear selfish prayers or prayers from those who are unwilling to admit their wrongdoings (i.e. unwilling to listen to God’s voice of truth exposing our error) The truth is there. And the truth is speaking to all of us. The challenge for us is whether we are going to believe the truth when every other rubber ruler we see is telling us we’re talking to the air.

Prayer must be based upon complete trust in God. Even when we are struggling with our trust in God, we must choose to open ourselves up to him again, relying on the truth of scripture that we have saturated our minds with. Our understanding of life compared to God’s is analogous to a 4-yr-old’s to his parents. The parents say, “Don’t go in in the street”, and “Don’t stick a fork in the electrical outlet.” The 4-yr-old may not be able to comprehend electrical theory, nor how his cells would be crushed by an oncoming car. The 4-yr-old is simply faced with a single momentous decision: Do I trust my parents mean the best for me, and obey them? Or do I decide that the rubber ruler of my 4-yr-old yearnings are better for me than my parents’ rules? It all boils down to trust. To faith.
25. karen | December 4, 2007 at 2:42 pm

I approach suffering in the same way. I’ve had an extra 15 years of life, because I believed in something greater than myself. And I am alive, so someone up there likes me. God is not finished with me yet.

Jeremy, I’m very glad you have survived for 15 years after your AIDS diagnosis, but are you saying that your HIV status miraculously disappeared? If not, what in the world are you thinking? Barring an out-and-out “miracle,” your quote above is really selfish and offensive, especially to me who had a dear friend die of AIDS several years ago.

Have not you and millions of others around the world survived with HIV because of the diligent, extremely talented scientists and researchers who isolated the HIV virus and then, working around the clock furiously for several years, developed the antiviral medications that treat it? How about the health care system in this country that allows you and others like you to be able to take these medications?

How can you even posit that you are alive because god likes you better than others in your situation?! What about the other people who participated in the study with you, and mostly died? Did none of them have any faith in the supernatural? Did god hate them?
26. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 2:45 pm

I note that almost all the Christians responses basically acknowledge that I hit on a disturbing and frightening truth. Namely, God does not respond.

Oh sure you can play that game, “Where’s Goddo?” [Think "Where's Waldo".] And you can say, “There! There He is. I spotted Him!”

But can you imagine Peter, or Paul, or Elijah having to play that game? Hah! They could just look at you and say, “God just revealed to me that your daughter is blind in one eye. Go home and you’ll find that she is healed from this very hour.”

Now THAT is a God I can get behind. But this god that you keep having to apologize? Whose absence and inaction you must explain away with contradictory logic? NO! That imaginary being, so capricious I cannot follow.
27. karen | December 4, 2007 at 2:48 pm

We can’t know all truth through reason and the scientific method (much as our post-enlightenment minds would like to think so).

Perhaps not. But if there’s a god is interacting with the physical universe and doing things like answering prayer, shouldn’t we be able to detect that interaction through reason and the scientific method? If not, why not? Do you think that god is deliberately hiding from us, scurrying out of sight when we try to measure his influence on the world. Why would he do that?

let’s face it, us trying to figure out God is like an ant trying to perform gallbladder surgery

This is the old “god works in mysterious ways” answer that’s supposed to cure any doubt cold and stop the argument cold. It may be good enough for you, and others who really, really WANT to believe, but it ain’t good enough for me. BTDT, not doing it anymore.
28. Thinking Ape | December 4, 2007 at 3:14 pm

onthuhlist,
You go from

“The truth”, whatever that may be, is out there, and is objective, even if it is not discoverable.

to

The only way to completely ascertain an objective truth is…(to quote a phrase, “drum roll, please”)…by faith.

And you say we have interesting presuppositions (that observation through the five senses is way out there!)!

When I read that second clause, I read, “The only way for me to ascertain what ‘truth’ is, is by thinking it into existence”

I know you won’t agree with me, but what am I really suppose to think. When I want to know the “truth” of the chair, I do not do so through “faith” - I do so by knowing its empirical properties: colour, mass, form, etc. When I look into the sky at night, I do not go by “faith” and assume that the sun is being pulled by a chariot, a giant god is holding up the earth, or that we are the center of the universe; instead, I SEE the beauty of the natural world and if I want to know more of its “truth”, I investigate wavelengths and lightspeeds - all observable with highly developed scientific tools. And unless you are Amish, which I doubt since you somehow posted on this blog, I think you benefit quite well from this science. So when you doubt that

science is a more accurate yardstick for measuring truth than faith

, I wonder what you mean by faith and how you differentiate your faith from the plague of subjectivity that I find in the rest of your post and other Christian’s life (it is amazing that God and Satan can both be credited with the same specific act).
29. Paul S | December 4, 2007 at 5:10 pm

You beat me to it, ThinkingApe!

onthuhlist said,

If “The truth”, whatever that may be, is out there, and is objective, even if it is not discoverable…

…then it may as well not exist and there is no use in having faith in it.
30. wayne | December 4, 2007 at 5:20 pm

LeoPardus,

What I can say is that so far there has been no clearly recognizable response. By that I mean a visitation, miracle, revelation, dream, or some other such supernatural event that I can’t miss.

My Christian friends and I often discuss this very subject. But with the ultimate understanding that God is Sovergn and that is that.

Over and Over He shows mercy on whom he will.

that being said He visits whom He will. Me in a dream last Fri from this picture. http://www.opacity.us/image5243_exit_window.htm
I have no idea who these people are I was sent this in an email.

Why, I really can’t say but I don’t worry about that I just keep moving forward not straying to the left or right, because I know if I do, I get in trouble.

It is possible you hooked up with the wrong people in the first place that lead you down this path. I’ll also say God has given me a gift of being kind of dumb in that way like a dog who does not stray too far from the hand that feeds him.

But can you imagine Peter, or Paul, or Elijah playing “Where’s Waldo”

Peter as you know could not recognize God (Jesus) on many different occasions, even when face to face with Him. Not so hard miss God these days, that is why Jesus said “how much more so for those who don’t see yet believe”. I didn’t want to quote Bible verses but this one is relevant to all of us who live now… fact is we can’t physically see and Jesus understood that.

Now THAT is a God I can get behind. But this god that you keep having to apologize? Whose absence and inaction you must explain away with contradictory logic? NO! That imaginary being, so capricious I cannot follow.

If I had a god I had to apologize about I would not get behind that either. What I might say is “well I’m sorry but that is the way God says, or sees it and that’s the way it is”.

In my life God is not absent. Questions abound still and many of them but it’s kind of like “man why is this air cold, does it have junk in it, what’s up with this air” but I stil keep breathing.

regards\ ,

wayne
31. LeoPardus | December 4, 2007 at 5:48 pm

wayne:

Your thinking is purely presuppositional and circular. It’s not an honest way of looking at the world.

You’re free to believe what ever you want. Even if it isn’t true. But as long as you are determined that all things must subordinate to your preset conclusion, and conflicting evidence must either be reinterpreted or ignored, you’re not honest.

Sorry if you don’t like that. It’s just true.
32. Nicoletta | December 4, 2007 at 5:48 pm

I think you should have stopped praying much earlier.
You probably have lost many preciuos moments doing this. Don’t you regret having been so foolish?
Best of luck for your life

I am a christian, by the way….
33. Ray | December 4, 2007 at 5:50 pm

God is all knowing - right? Then why bother praying, he (she) knows what will transpire and nothing you can do will change it. So I stopped praying when I was seventeen and have allocated the time wasted praying in more useful pursuits.
34. Zach | December 4, 2007 at 5:54 pm

Congrats!

The supernatural should be strictly for the imagination. I love movies and novels about God, and I also love movies and novels about wizards and dragons. They fit into similar genres as far as I’m concerned.
35. bry0000000 | December 4, 2007 at 6:26 pm

In response to

“If “The truth”, whatever that may be, is out there, and is objective, even if it is not discoverable…,”

I think I recall someone on the blog (I think it was LeoPardus) saying

“The “truth” of something does not need verification to be a reality, but it does need verification if it needs to have any value attributed to it.”

Sorry if I’m beating a dead horse.
36. Lorena | December 4, 2007 at 7:04 pm

I only read the article, I haven’t read the comments, but I would like to add my two cents.

I had the same awakening, realizing that non-Christians, without prayers, succeeded and failed at the same rate as the “holy” ones. And I agree with the writer that it was a turning point in my de-conversion.

But it also helped me realize that since most Christians don’t have a prayer life, they will never know that prayer matters little. It is those of us who put the practice who the test and saw it fail who are able to understand the fallacy of it.

Again, it is too bad that most Christians will never know. They are sure that the very day start praying, they will see results…Little do they know!
37. karen | December 4, 2007 at 8:12 pm

My Christian friends and I often discuss this very subject. But with the ultimate understanding that God is Sovergn and that is that.

And this is exactly what so many of us now object to and look back on with dismay about our Christian relationships, wayne. I mean, really, how much good “discussion” can you have when the conclusions are all reached, there’s no room for variation and parameters are observed so strictly?

A friend of mine who is a former fundamentalist describes this as the “range of acceptable answers.” Any one who’s attended a fundamentalist bible study or prayer meeting knows that if/when serious issues come up, there’s a set of answers that are acceptable (god is sovereign, pray about it, wait on the lord, etc) and anything that strays outside of that is off limits.

That’s not discussion, that’s called a mutual agreement society. And it’s stultifying intellectually, frankly.
38. cipher | December 4, 2007 at 9:08 pm

The majority of the Christian responses to this post are understandably and expectedly compassionate.

I don’t know that I’d agree with this. These responses all start out with, “I’m sorry for your experience”, but they invariably conclude with some thing along the lines of, “You didn’t have enough faith; you expect God to abide by your timetable; you’re looking at prayer in the wrong way…” It always ends up being his fault. I don’t see this as compassion. I see a bunch of Christians trying to stave off doubt by invalidating someone who disagrees, someone who has been where they are and has come to different conclusions. This is exemplified by Wayne, who says,

And there are plenty of people on this blog that could reason with you and give good counsel if you so desired.

ignoring completely the fact that LeoPardus said,

I still wanted there to be a supreme being who will, in the end, take care of us and deal with all the things too big for us. There was still a longing for something eternal, and of ultimate, universal significance.

This is the fundamentalist’s ultimate refuge – “You don’t believe, because you don’t want to believe!” The fact that you’ve already told us that you do (or did) want to believe has no bearing on what they already know to be your motivation!

Jeremy said,

I’ve had an extra 15 years of life, because I believed in something greater than myself. And I am alive, so someone up there likes me. God is not finished with me yet.

In addition to the fact that you seem to be unconcerned with those whose prayers God apparently didn’t answer - you believe you’re going to heaven! Why cling to life so ferociously? If you truly believe, wouldn’t it have been a greater kindness if He had taken you years ago?

LeoPardus, I’m a little confused. You said that you examined the scientific literature, found the studies that had been done on prayer and healing, and discovered that they indicated no efficacy. But Larry Dossey has been saying for years that he also went through all of the literature, that there were something like 130 experiments when he began his meta-study (probably more by now), and that the general conclusion has been that prayer is effective. So now I don’t know what to think! Has Dossey been seeing what he wanted to see these past twenty or so years – or has he been looking at the wrong studies? (He claimed that at least some of the studies he examined employed good methodology.)
39. Thinking Ape | December 4, 2007 at 9:14 pm

Karen rightly points out,

A friend of mine who is a former fundamentalist describes this as the “range of acceptable answers.”… That’s not discussion, that’s called a mutual agreement society. And it’s stultifying intellectually, frankly.

Not only is this intellectually stunted, but it also is the answer to one regular theist commenter who brings up the argument that we, as modern/postmodern freethinkers, are not giving credit to the many Christian intellectuals over the past two years. We do give them credit, but they were bound by the “range of acceptable answers” - not only by their own mind, but by the most powerful institution of the day, the church.
40. Thinking Ape | December 4, 2007 at 9:18 pm

Cipher, could you give some reference to Larry Dossey? The only time I have heard the name was in a discussion that some theistic sciences have attempted to give scientific evidence for the soul.
41. cipher | December 4, 2007 at 10:45 pm

Larry Dossey is an MD who has written a number of books on prayer and healing. Healing Words is probably the best known. He claimed to have gone through the literature and to have discovered a large set of experiments dealing with prayer and the healing process - some of them done with quite good methodology - indicating a positive correlation. One of the conclusions was that non-directed prayer was actually more effective than directed prayer, that is, prayer in which a specific outcome was prayed for. Of course, they never talk about these results on any of the Christian television programs, as they also indicated that no one faith tradition has primacy over the others.

When I read his books (which was a few years ago; he’s written more since), he didn’t attempt to explain it in terms of God; as I recall, he tried to bring in the principle of nonlocality. Although his books became popular with the New Age crowd, he wasn’t your run of the mill New Age nitwit; he put some thought into his ideas, and was one of the few whose books were embraced by that subculture who actually had a background in science.
42. HeIsSailing | December 4, 2007 at 10:50 pm

LeoPardus:

Being a scientist, I dug into the literature for any studies on the efficacy of prayer. Lo and behold, there were actual, controlled studies that had been done. And the result? Drum roll, please….. nada, nil, zip, zilch, zero… no efficacy at all.

I am also a scientist, but I have never been interested in these tests for prayer in a controlled environment. Controlled tests are for detecting and measuring things like the hidden charge of an electron in a Millikan oil-drop test, not for detecting the power of infinite being through prayer! To me, it is a forgone conclusion that the results will be disappointing if we figure the Power of Prayer from an infinite God can only be detected in such minute amounts that the environment needs to be controlled in the first place!

I *do* expect miracles from God. I mean miracles that suspend all the laws of physics and nature. I mean miracles that are truly indistinguishable from magic. In my old Bible study group, we had a couple with a moderately autistic teenage boy.

Is something like autism too hard for God to heal? If you are a Christian, would you feel uncomfortable praying for a miraculous healing of an autistic child? Of course you would. You can lambast God with prayers of miraculous healing 24/7 for as long as you wish, but you and I both know that child will remain autistic. So the Christian is content praying for strength to deal with the autistic child, extra money to pay for medication and other truly non-miraculous things.

Here is a question that needs to be addressed. Is autism harder for God to heal than a financial problem at home? Is autism harder for God to heal than a common cold? A job? How about simple direction in life? The miraculous healing of autism should be as trivial for God to perform as asking for something like granting wisdom in marraige. Yet, if God will not heal the autistic child, what makes the Christian think God is answering the prayer for direction in life? For healing that nasty flu?

What makes the Christian think God answers *any* prayer, if the miraculous is ignored?
43. Thinking Ape | December 4, 2007 at 11:30 pm

Cipher, thank you for the reference. You mentioned the lack of distinguishing results between religious traditions - do you know if Dr. Dossey does any research on homeopathy and like treatments? I only ask because I wonder about the correlations between the two. When someone pays for the kind of care that homeopathy doctors have to offer, it is little wonder that the patient feels better about their overall well-being. Unlike Dr. Dossey and my colleagues, Leopardus and Heissailing, I am not a scientist, but I am interested in scientific research that plays a role in the sociology and psychology of religion. Does anyone know of any site that I may access some of Dr. Dossey’s research without paying an arm and a leg? (I must say, however, that I am initially skeptical of “meta-studies,” although if the evidence is there, I can be persuaded).
44. Mark | December 4, 2007 at 11:55 pm

Hi Leo. Thanks for taking me up on the offer, though the amount of traffic here is a lot to follow and I hate to ask you questions you have already answered.

I’ll start here, though. Your original post comes across as an open plea for a real response from God to your prayers. Frankly, it reminds me of the excerpts I have read of Mother Theresa’s new book and her long experience feeling unanswered in prayer by God, even as she was serving in the orphanages in India.

Yet, when I read this comment from you “Fine. You have an ‘in’ with the deity, have him give me a call.” it makes me wonder if you are really open. Sounds like it is more than an intellectual experience. Can you give any detail on the kinds of prayers that went unanswered? Would you say there were they tests (do this and I’ll believe in you) or humble requests (please change this circumstance)?

Thanks. I look forward to learning more about your experience. I genuinely want to see this from your shoes.
45. Mark | December 4, 2007 at 11:57 pm

Sorry for the typos. My question should have read as follows:
Would you say your unanswered prayers were tests (do this and I’ll believe in you) or humble requests (please change this circumstance)?

Or were they something else altogether?

Thanks.
46. HeIsSailing | December 4, 2007 at 11:59 pm

Mark:

Would you say there were they tests (do this and I’ll believe in you)

Is there anything necessarily wrong with this if it is done in the right spirit? I have asked God to show himself to me in an unmistakable manner when I was beginning to question my faith. Gideon could lay out his fleece, and not satisfied he could lay it out again. Why couldn’t I?
47. Mark | December 5, 2007 at 12:13 am

Great question HIS. I think you are right to ask about the motive first and foremost. Gideon is definitely an example of testing God multiple times, with apparent unbelief at work in his motives.

So, my question for you is what do you mean by “unmistakeable”? This seems to me a slippery slope. What if God showed you something that made you want to trust in an experience (like a lightning bolt-on-queue) rather than Him? It seems that it would stunt the growth of your faith, though it would indeed keep the doors of uncertainty open.
48. Mark | December 5, 2007 at 12:15 am

Another miscue…the lightning bolt would close the doors of uncertainty. Must be coming up on my beditime. ; )
49. karen | December 5, 2007 at 12:43 am

What makes the Christian think God answers *any* prayer, if the miraculous is ignored?

You know the funny thing is that it’s almost like - deep, deep down, maybe buried in the subconscious - even Christians know that god doesn’t answer prayer.

It seems to me that in the past, or maybe in other cultures, Christians did/do pray for miracles. They go to Lourdes or Medjugorje and light candles and dip in holy water, fully expecting bona fide miracles.

But here in the U.S., no one prays for amputated limbs to grow back, or autistic children to have normal brain function. They know it ain’t gonna happen, although if it did and could be verified there would be a whole lot of new converts. Why the squeamishness about really asking for miracles, guys?

I’ve heard someone explain that god isn’t in the miracle business anymore, and that physical manifestations were for the ancient times, but I’m thinking that’s an awfully convenient excuse.
50. Mark | December 5, 2007 at 12:45 am

HIS - To your question above:

Here is a question that needs to be addressed. Is autism harder for God to heal than a financial problem at home? Is autism harder for God to heal than a common cold? A job? How about simple direction in life? The miraculous healing of autism should be as trivial for God to perform as asking for something like granting wisdom in marraige. Yet, if God will not heal the autistic child, what makes the Christian think God is answering the prayer for direction in life? For healing that nasty flu?

I 100% agree that it is unsatisfying to pray to a God who can only give you strength to deal with a situation, but who is unable to actually change the situation. No doubt, the God of the Bible can do whatever pleases Him, no problem. He made the world. And Jesus, also God, upholds the universe by the word of His power (Heb 1:2-3).

So, why did He not heal my 8 year old nephew Vincent two years ago when he was dying of a brain tumor. Well, I cannot fully answer that. But my conviction is that His wisdom and His plans are always for the best–both now and for eternity. With that presupposition in place, I can see numerous reasons why He would want to take my nephew, as sad as that was, in order to reveal more of Himself and His comfort to those who do and do not submit to Him as God. Plus, He has fixed a date when all tears will be wiped away. Vincent’s death has brought these realities into clear focus for me, and I am grateful despite the ongoing sadness, which is real.
51. Rachel | December 5, 2007 at 1:54 am

Hi Karen:

It’s not that Christians believe that God CAN’T heal miraculously, but that he doesn’t do it very often. God created the universe to function in an orderly, predictable manner, so most of the time he works simply through natural means. Miracles are the exception, not something that God automatically dispenses when somebody says the right thing. So I guess you could say that miracles are like the fine china; God only uses them on special occasions. Christ performed miracles to validate his identity as God/the Messiah. And interestingly enough, even though thousands of people witnessed his miracles of the loaves and the fish, many of his disciples left him. Guess there’s more to faith than witnessing a miracle.

I think you have to note too that humanity has messed up and God has allowed us to bear the natural consequences of our sin. God intervening supernaturally every time we screw up doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for free will, ya know?
52. Kat | December 5, 2007 at 2:51 am

Just another young Christian dropping by.

Today, in our Philosophy of Religion class, we were going through an article by Quentin Lauer, SJ, and a few passages made me think about this blog. It’s not necessarily related to this post, but it might be interesting to discuss. Emphases are all mine.

“What can it mean to be committed to God? The answer is that commitment to God is meaningless, unless it be also - and, if we are speaking of direct commitment, primarily - commitment to man. Now, if this means anything, it means loving man, precisely because he is man, not because love is a divine command or a moral law, not because in loving man we are loving God, but because we have eyes to see that man is lovable and that we are less human if we do not love him.”

And,

“Perhaps what we (Fr. Lauer is writing to his fellow Catholics) must do is to recognize that it is not our task to safeguard the interests of God - He is quite capable of taking care of that Himself - but rather to safeguard the rights of man, even against the intolerable demands of a legalistic God Whom we have fashioned to ourselves.”

And,

“If the God we have thus enthroned is one Who allows us to see all our human efforts as ultimately oriented to securing our own personal salvation, there is a serious question as to whether we have not made to ourselves a God Who is not worthy of His own creatures.”

And lastly, though mostly to my fellow Christians also reading this blog,

“We are told by contemporary philosophers that to know the truth of a statement is to know what it would mean for it to be false…. To get back to the question of God, can our faith in Him be truly faith if it cannot face the question: Suppose there is no God? … Perhaps the response is that of Nietzsche: there is no God, therefore man himself must shoulder the responsibility of creating a genuinely moral world. Here at least God is not utilized as a means to moral ends, and belief in Him becomes a significant option. Such an attitude need not be incompatible with belief…. Faith must not be a haven for our desire of security; it must, as Kierkegaard says, be accompanied by a sense of risk - which goes with an absence of rational certainty - if it is to be worthy of being called faith…. Albert Camus said that the big question for man … is, ‘Can one be a saint without God?’ Only if one can will he ever be a saint with God.”
53. Rachel | December 5, 2007 at 3:21 am

Thanks for posting those, Kat. I think I’d have to read the whole article to really get a good grasp of the passages, though. I like the last one…pretty much goes back to Hebrews and “now faith is being sure of what we hope for a certain of what we do not see.” Do you go to a Catholic university?
54. Kat | December 5, 2007 at 3:59 am

Rachel, the article is “The Problem of Unbelief” by Quentin Lauer, SJ. He actually closes with something to this effect: unbelief is not necessarily a problem, not even when we (believers) experience it ourselves. If you do read it, you’ll have to keep in mind that he’s writing to his fellow Catholics. For the anti-theists, the “absence of rational certainty” might just seem to be Fr. Lauer’s way of tapering off into that ever-frustrating, “It’s a mystery.” :p

And yes, haha, I do go to a Catholic university, though I’m not Catholic myself. It’s got this big liberal arts core curriculum that requires, among other things, 12 units each of Philo and Theo.
55. John | December 5, 2007 at 4:19 am

Great Post! Christians seemed to invent all sorts of excuses/theories for their god as to why he wont heal people rather than face reality. Just read some of these comments.
Your god promised you physical healing. So has any amputee in the last 1900 years ever got their foot back through physical healing? ever?
56. bry0000000 | December 5, 2007 at 5:32 am

Hi Rachel,

I hope I don’t sound militant with this response. With all due respect, your argument sounds like one big cop-out for Christianity. For example:

“I guess you could say that miracles are like the fine china; God only uses them on special occasions. Christ performed miracles to validate his identity as God/the Messiah.”

How convenient. He USED to perform miracles, but now since we’re testing his existence, he won’t perform. Sounds like a non existent God to me.

But of course, there’s the infallible “thou shall not test the Lord your God” commandment (not an exact quote… forgive me), which to us, sounds a lot like:

Person A: My God is real
Person B: Oh yeah, I don’t see him. Prove it!
Person A: BLASPHEMY! THOU SHALL NOT DEMAND GOD TO PROVE HIMSELF!

Which leads into the other part of our argument.

“And interestingly enough, even though thousands of people witnessed his miracles of the loaves and the fish, many of his disciples left him.”

Sounds irrational… because it is. I cannot think of one person in existence today, myself included, who would deny the divinity of someone who displayed his power in such a way. Yet for some, this, for some inexplainable reason (maybe an unwillingness to truly analyze the situation… hope that doesn’t sound too harsh), makes perfect sense.

So let’s look at it this way: Christ never performed the miracles the bible says he did. Christ never claims to have performed the miracles he did. (Heck, we can argue that Christ didn’t exist… digression, sorry.) Later, about the time the Gospels were actually written (many of the contributors to this blog are much more knowledgeable in this area, perhaps they will be willing to provide a brief history of the writing of the gospels if you are curious), the authors and later editors (kings, religious leaders, people in power such as King James {though not him necessarily}) asked themselves “How can we make this Christ fellow sound divine? And how can we keep people from getting too suspicious when something supernatural doesn’t happen?” And then… “Oh, I know! Let’s make them afraid to question. Lets make it blasphemy to demand that God prove himself through his power. And while we’re at it, let’s create the end all answer to that question… something along the lines of ‘his power is shown all around us every day.’ Yeah, that’s ambiguous. I like it. Now we can answer their question and accuse them of blasphemy all at the same time. Who can question that?”

Maybe, and I say MAYBE a little far fetched, but certainly no more (and definitely less) than believing some guy turned two fish and three loaves of bread into 500.
57. HeIsSailing | December 5, 2007 at 7:30 am

So has any amputee in the last 1900 years ever got their foot back through physical healing? ever?

hmmm.. I used the example of the autistic boy in my BIble study group, but the amputee is another good example. Would the Christian ever pray for the healing of an amputee? We all know this request will be answered by God with a resounding ‘no’. We all know the autistic boy will not miraculously gain his faculties, and the army vet who got his leg blown off by an IED will wear that prosthetic the rest of his life. All the prayer in the world will not grow that leg back. Everyone, even the most devout Christian knows this. So with tthis bit of wisdom, again I ask, what makes anybody think God answers prayer of any kind?
58. HeIsSailing | December 5, 2007 at 7:32 am

Kat:

And yes, haha, I do go to a Catholic university, though I’m not Catholic myself.

Don’t despair. My wife went to a catholic university, and received an *excellent* education.
59. HeIsSailing | December 5, 2007 at 7:45 am

Rachel says:

Christ performed miracles to validate his identity as God/the Messiah. And interestingly enough, even though thousands of people witnessed his miracles of the loaves and the fish, many of his disciples left him. Guess there’s more to faith than witnessing a miracle.

I agree with you here, Rachel. Just because God/Christ validates himself to those who want to believe with a miracle, does not mean that we will automatically trust him. Many Christians will claim that God does not perform miracles today, because he wants us to trust him as a personal diety, rather than rely on his miracles, as if he were Santa Claus. Before somebody suggests that, let me cut you off by saying that is pure rubbish.

I am not asking God for gifts and favors, as if he were my personal genie. I am asking for one thing - simple validation. This will not turn me into a ‘robot’. The Bible is full of examples of those who saw the miraculous, of folks who personally talked with God, yet had no faith or trust in him.

As a Christian, I sincerely asked God to reveal himself to me in some unmistakable way to me. For years, I got nothing. My life continued indistinguishable from the heathen’s. As a doubting Christian, I pleaded with God.

I must be the odd one out here amongst de-converts. I *do* want to believe. Yet when I try to ask for verification, I get nothing, and in hindsight, I have never gotten anything.

In that sense, God is not asking us modern people to trust in him first. He is asking us to be gullable first. And while I see great moral virtue in trust, I see none in gullability. Why does God ask us to be faithful, in the sense of gullability?

That question remains unanswered to me.
60. HeIsSailing | December 5, 2007 at 8:16 am

Mark:

I 100% agree that it is unsatisfying to pray to a God who can only give you strength to deal with a situation, but who is unable to actually change the situation.

Mark, please excuse me, but that is not quite what I said. Let’s take the couple I mentioned above as an example. During our prayer meetings, I prayed out loud to God for strength to deal with the strain their autistic son brought to their lives (and make no mistake - he was a handful). Yet, I would never dream of being so untactful to instead pray out loud for a miraculous healing!

Why not? Besides being unconfortable and even offensive for the parents, it would put God up to ridicule, because let’s face it, we all know that boy will leave prayer group as autistic as when he entered.

So here is my charge. If God will not heal the autistic, what makes me think God is doing…. anything? To a God of infinite power, healing the autistic should be just as trivial as granting strength to the parents. Yet we prayed for inner-strength constantly, but never the healing.

That, to me as a Chrisitan, was a real problem. Despite the claims of our favorite church creeds, we were forced to pray only for those things which required little faith in the first place.

So, why did He not heal my 8 year old nephew Vincent two years ago when he was dying of a brain tumor.

It is stuff like this that reminds me that these bloggers on the other side of the computer screen are not just anonymous debate combatants, but real human beings, each with their own set of problems and circumstances, just like me. I can only speak for myself, but when I prayed to God my requests were usually for strength to deal with a particularly trying situation, or wisdom, especially regarding my marraige. I think those are fine and noble requests - they are meant, not for my own benefit, but to those around me.

But in hindsight, it seems to me that those are prayers that *must* be answered - and if not by God, then by our own agent of will. I had a friend who recently died of stomach cancer. I had left Christianity by then, but a week after she died, those of us who had visited her in hospice care got together and prayed for the wisdom to understand and the strength to carry on. Now, that is fine, but those are prayers that *must* be answered if we are to cope as human beings. We, as congnizant and aware humans, have to be content that there is an answer out there somewhere, otherwise we would probably die of despair and weakness of will. It seems to me that prayer can be a way of meditating on ourselves, yes ourselves, to focus on our own situations, to gain strength from some resevoir of will deep inside us. Because what do we ultimately do to gain strength and wisdom in trying situations? We meet with like minded people, family and loved ones. We gain strength from attending church and fellowshipping with congregants. We read inspiring books, and the Bible is just one of an endless supply of choices in that area.

It seems to me that we all do this because we *must* do it in order to cope and survive. The saint and the sinner, the Christian and the Heathen, the faithful and the atheist all alike must ultimately do these very same things.

I just don’t see how God enters this picture though. We can pray to him for strength and wisdom, but in my experience, I just find answers to these prayers to be indistinguishible from out own human strength and will.

Wow, I am a type-a-holic. Sorry for the long reply - but these are difficult issues and important questions that can’t easily be summed up in two or three sentences.
61. HeIsSailing | December 5, 2007 at 8:32 am

Mark:

So, my question for you is what do you mean by “unmistakeable”? This seems to me a slippery slope. What if God showed you something that made you want to trust in an experience (like a lightning bolt-on-queue) rather than Him?

Mark, see my reply to Rachel, comment #59.

As far as unmistakable, consider this. God showed his power to Moses by turning his hand leprous. God did that for no other reason than to unmistakably show his authority and power to ol’ Mo. Gideon asked that the morning dew cover the ground and not the fleece. God answered that request. Not content, Gideon then asked that the morning dew conver the fleece and not the ground. God, without complaint, answered that request as well.

No, I am not Moses or Gideon. But there is precident for God revealing himself. To make himself known. This is all I am asking for.

Mark:

It seems that it would stunt the growth of your faith, though it would indeed keep the doors of uncertainty open

You know Mark, I just can’t buy that. The bible is loaded with examples of people who witnessed the miraculous, who talked with God, who knew his power, yet ultimately had no faith in him.

We need to be careful with the word faith. When you say that if God reveals himself too much it would stunt the growth of my faith, are you talking about faith in the sense of trust, or faith in the sense of gullability? It seems to me that the focus of God’s faithfulness switches from Trust, to a wierd combination of Trust and Gullability somewhere.

If God is asking us to Trust him, that is one thing. That is something I have no problem with. But just being certain of his existance, or of the reality of Christ, does not ensure one’s trust. But it this does not seem to be the faith God is trying to cultivate in us. By refusing to reveal himself, God is trying to cultivate faithfulness in the sense of gullability in us. That seems very strange to me. If the greatest virtue of all is Loving God and Loving our neighbor as ourselves, just how does gullability fit into that scheme?
62. qmonkey | December 5, 2007 at 9:17 am

>>>I must be the odd one out here amongst de-converts. I *do* want to believe. Yet when I try to ask for verification, I get nothing, and in hindsight, I have never gotten anything.

as micheal jackson said you are not alone.

there’s a ‘take the blue pill’ post of mine around here somewhere
63. Vicky B | December 5, 2007 at 9:22 am

I have had prayers answered, to the skeptic they answers could be explained away, but to me they are real…

As a child I wa semotinally absued by my Mum, by the time I was a teenager I was sick of people telling about a loving God, I felt like my life just made other perople’s lives worse and I wanted out. So I prayed to God that if He exists, He should do something.. The next night I went to take an overdose on tablets and couldn’t find a single one in the house, despite there being alot the night before due to my Mums hypochondria. I broke down in tears with anger becuase I didn’t want to believe but knew God was there.

Why doesn’t God do this for others? Actually I think he does for those who’ll listen, some people just want more and more proof. Plus God wants us to have faith not empirical evidence of His existence.

That’s just one prayer… A friend of mine’s wife had her brain tumour dissapear.

When I got stuck without a car recently and really needed one to carry on working I asked people to pray for me, and within a week I was given a car.

I couldn’t afford to get married, but somehow managed it without debt, due to random gifts of kindness etc, another answered prayer.

Are there prayers I haven’t had a ‘yes’ too, sure.. I spent a whole year asking God what to do with my life and felt the only answer was wait. At the end of the year, someone took me out for coffee and asked if I’d considered youth work, another happened to mention a college course where I could get trained and a job and place to live opened up just 30 miles away from my then boyfriend (now husband). All of the ‘answer’ happened within 4 weeks.

At the same time my Dad had renal failure and was never cured and has since died. Why God didn’t heal him I don’t know. But I do know death isn’t all bad and that I’m a better person at supporting others through grief becuase of it. i also know my Dad had the option over and over of improving his lifestyle so he wouldn’t be ill and he refused.

A lovely lady at my church is struggling with cancer right now and hasn’t been healed, but she has been such an inspiration and blessing to others that maybe there is a reason in it all. People have hope from her that they wouldn’t have any other way.

Another friend has just struggled with depression for 9 months, but God has really used the time to help him through old issues and it has given him the breathing space to choose to make a career change…

I don’t have answrs for why people get healed and don’t get healed. But I do believe that ultimately God does know best and I trust in that. And I know for many people that sounds like a cop put and a bit twee, but thats how it is.

And as I currently sit here waiting for tests to see why my helth is bad, I know God has in in hand, even if I die through illness becuase thats what he proimises all those who dare to believe in him and live with their doubts
64. kay | December 5, 2007 at 9:57 am

HeIsSaling,

Here is a question that needs to be addressed. Is autism harder for God to heal than a financial problem at home? Is autism harder for God to heal than a common cold?

I was recently reading a book on Christian practices that a friend recommended to me. I was actually enjoying the book quite a bit until I got to the chapter on prayer.

In it the author basically says something like ‘Start your prayer practice by praying for something small, like an earache, before you pray for something bigger, like arthritis or cancer.’

I haven’t picked the book up since.
65. cipher | December 5, 2007 at 10:20 am

God created the universe to function in an orderly, predictable manner, so most of the time he works simply through natural means. Miracles are the exception, not something that God automatically dispenses when somebody says the right thing. So I guess you could say that miracles are like the fine china; God only uses them on special occasions.

This reminds me of that movie The Cisco Kid, with Gene Wilder. Wilder plays a young rabbi, and in one scene, he’s being hosted by Native Americans. The chief is asking if Wilder’s God can make it rain, and Wilder tells him that He can, of course – but he simply doesn’t. The chief asks why, and Wilder replies that He just doesn’t work that way. This goes back and forth a few times, then there’s a clap of thunder, and it begins to rain. Wilder says, “Of course, every so often, just like that – He changes His mind!”

God intervening supernaturally every time we screw up doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for free will, ya know?

This has always been and continues to be the theist’s ultimate rationalization. It never ceases to astonish me how vociferously Christians argue for an idea that most of them aren’t really even equipped to defend.

I recall seeing a televangelist on a talk show – I think it was Robert Schuller, whom I don’t actually dislike; I think he’s the best by far of a bad breed – saying that he loved doubters, that his favorite apostle was Thomas, because he doubted, but he ended up saying, “My Lord and my God”. I just shook my head; he couldn’t see that he was arguing against himself. Thomas believed because he saw Jesus resurrected, because he put his finger in the wound – but let someone today voice similar doubts, and ask for even more modest evidence, and they get that other quote thrown at them – “Blessed is he who has not seen and believes.”

I am so sick of all the rationalizations: You don’t really want to believe; it’s God’s prerogative to do with us as He likes; it isn’t our place to question; what you’re asking for [whatever the hell it happens to be at the moment] would compromise your free will [a concept very few of them even adequately understand] - anything so that they can continue to believe. And, of course, the end result is that those of us who don’t agree get consigned to hell for all of eternity - all so that they can enjoy a few brief decades of ontological security while they are here.

I’m tired of being sacrificed on the altar of their convenience.
66. cipher | December 5, 2007 at 10:36 am

“We are told by contemporary philosophers that to know the truth of a statement is to know what it would mean for it to be false…. To get back to the question of God, can our faith in Him be truly faith if it cannot face the question: Suppose there is no God? … Perhaps the response is that of Nietzsche: there is no God, therefore man himself must shoulder the responsibility of creating a genuinely moral world. Here at least God is not utilized as a means to moral ends, and belief in Him becomes a significant option. Such an attitude need not be incompatible with belief…. Faith must not be a haven for our desire of security; it must, as Kierkegaard says, be accompanied by a sense of risk - which goes with an absence of rational certainty - if it is to be worthy of being called faith…. Albert Camus said that the big question for man … is, ‘Can one be a saint without God?’ Only if one can will he ever be a saint with God.”

My thanks also, Kat. The Catholic theologians often are willing to confront issues from which the Protestant fundamentalists shy away – including the need for certainty.

Thinking Ape,

Dossey has a website - http://www.dosseydossey.com – although there doesn’t seem to be much on it. I’d start with Healing Words – I think it was the first one in which he talked about doing a meta-study, and I believe it was footnoted. It’s been out for about ten years, and it’s in all the libraries now. You could check out the ones he’s written since, as well.

Bear in mind that I’m not arguing in favor of his opinions. I’m just curious about the discrepancies. He claimed that the evidence supported the efficacy of prayer, and he was very convincing at the time. LeoPardus looked at the evidence and came up with a different conclusion. I also heard that there was another experiment done recently which also indicated a negative correlation. It was in the news, yet I didn’t hear Dossey say anything about it publicly. So, as I said – now I don’t know what to think.
67. wayne | December 5, 2007 at 11:18 am

LeoPardus,

Sorry if you don’t like that. It’s just true.

No problem, I’m good with whatever you say. one of us is wrong and that is that.

But I like this site as it gives me good insight for appologetics. Not appologies however.

nothing returns void and we will converse again i’m sure

thanks,
68. LeoPardus | December 5, 2007 at 12:01 pm

Busy couple days coming up. I’ll try to drop in a bit, ’cause this thread is interesting.

One quick response and I’m off and running.

Mark:

Can you give any detail on the kinds of prayers that went unanswered? Would you say there were they tests (do this and I’ll believe in you) or humble requests (please change this circumstance)?

Any and all prayers. Heal D’s cancer. Bring B back to the faith. Restore N’s mind to her. Plenty of others where it would have been clear whether or not there was an answer.

Throughout 25 years they were requests. And when they weren’t answered, I took the same tack Christians always seem to take (i.e. “It’s not His will.” , “Maybe He’s testing us.” . “This will make D’s faith stronger.” , “He’s better off in the arms of Jesus.” , etc.) And I actually believed those excuses.

At the end the requests were nothing more or less than screams of fear and anguish. I did NOT let go easily or willingly. I was DESPERATE to hold on. I wanted anything at all, any lifeline to hang on to.

At the end the request came with tears, shakes, upset stomach, you name it. I so much wanted a loving father to show up and show me in thoroughly, unmistakable, tangible ways that I was not alone. That He was there.

No god, no angel, no visions, no anything came. What was left to do? I let go.

It’s been about year since I finally admitted the inevitable. I’ve been rebuilding. I can honestly say, “LIfe is good.” But I still wish in some way that God was there. And I’ll allow still that there could be something. That’s why I said, “If you have an ‘in’…..” If there is something there, and you can reach it/him/etc, do it.
69. Thinking Ape | December 5, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Cipher, I will check out the book in the libraries, thank you. I do not admit to reading all the research on the subject, but I do perk my ears up whenever something recent comes along. In the last seven years there have been several double-blind studies and other neurological research that Leopardus was probably referring to.

Honestly, the the prayer thing always comes across as somewhat shallow because Christian prayers are often so shallow and even as a Christian, I would often think to myself that “If I was God, I probably wouldn’t answer that” for various reasons. If there is a God, God made the natural order of things, why would we expect the Godself to screw around with it because we are uncomfortable?

What currently interests me more than something as vague as prayer is research on ecstatic experiences, such as glossolalia and so-called “faith-healings” of any religious tradition.
70. Rachel | December 5, 2007 at 12:43 pm

Cipher,

Just so we’re clear here, I am most definitely NOT a fundamentalist. I just wanted to clear up a few things in regards to how miracles function in a life of faith. As you said, it really comes back to the desire for certainty. I don’t think that any Christian would tell you that they believe in God because he has unmistakably appeared to them. Faith isn’t really “faith” if you are completely certain about everything.
71. Rachel | December 5, 2007 at 12:51 pm

Thinking Ape said:

“If there is a God, God made the natural order of things, why would we expect the Godself to screw around with it because we are uncomfortable?”

Thank you, that’s exactly what I said earlier.
72. cipher | December 5, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Rachel,

I won’t lump you in with the fundamentalists, then. But I HATE the “free will” excuse. Conservative Christians (and, in my experience, the theologically conservative of other traditions as well) use it to rationalize away just about anything and everything. Most people who argue for it see it as some sort of absolute, inviolable quality. Even if we are free - and that in itself is debatable - I don’t know that we are in an absolute sense. Of course, if one acknowledges that, it becomes the slippery slope fundamentalists so fear - so they hold onto it. No matter how difficult your circumstances, how pervasive your programming - they posit that there’s some part of you, no matter how deeply buried it is, that remains untouched by your experiences, and is capable of making a “choice” - and what is that “choice”? You choose either to “accept” or “reject” God.

(BTW, the Buddhists do the same thing - they just don’t bring God into it.)

Life is like a carousel ride. We go round and round, and we become dizzy and think we’re going to fall off. To steady ourselves, we reach out for the first thing available - the brass ring. Unfortunately, it comes off in our hands, so we just continue to go around, denying the unsteadiness. The brass ring is free will.

It’s also about a step away from telling the non-believer, “You don’t believe because you don’t want to be held accountable” - because every person of faith knows that we’re all leading lives of debauchery and immorality.

Actually, now that I think of it - where is all this hedonistic pleasure I’m supposed to be experiencing? Did I miss a meeting?
73. cipher | December 5, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Oh, and if you really agree with what Thinking Ape said -

“If there is a God, God made the natural order of things, why would we expect the Godself to screw around with it because we are uncomfortable?”

Thank you, that’s exactly what I said earlier.

Well, at that point, it isn’t even Christianity any longer. It’s Deism.

BTW, when I used the term “fundamentalist” in reference to that quote from the Catholic theologian, I wasn’t necessarily referring to you. That’s one of the reasons I posted two separate responses. There are others posting here who would more clearly fit that definition.
74. cipher | December 5, 2007 at 2:59 pm

One more thing - I disagree with you. I think that a lot of Christians would say that God has manifested himself in their lives in such a way that it has removed all doubt. I think that’s a HUGE selling point with them.

As far as faith goes - someone once told me that “faith” was the dirtiest word he knew. I agreed then, and I agree now. It’s another concept that Christians have used to beat non-Christians over the head with for centuries, yet most of them would be hard-pressed to define it. And, in my experience, some of us have the aptitude for it, and some do not. Which,from my perspective, is a large part of the problem with Christianity - it’s a “one size fits all” theology, and, unfortunately, it’s also a “lowest common denominator” one as well. In order to be spared an eternity of unimaginable torment, I have to try to force myself to “believe” (whatever that actually means, if anything) the same things believed by people whose temperament, life experiences and level of education are utterly different from my own.

Oh, Thinking Ape - I meant to tell you. I came across this article recently about research done on entheogens. I would have thought it impossible to do given the attitude of the current administration, but, incredibly, there it is. Advocates for their use have been saying for years that they can be used to “jump start” mystical experiences for those who don’t seem to be hardwired for having them. Huston Smith, the philosopher of religion, is mentioned. He experimented with LSD back in the sixties with Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert (now Ram Dass). He’s been saying for decades that he appears to be one of those without the hardwiring, and that the experiences he had enhanced his faith enormously.

The article appeared originally in Tikkun last spring, and is no longer available at their site, but it’s been reproduced in this forum:

http://www.entheogen.com/forum/showthread.php?s=412f825fcb65a6bb8b57944e6892e246&t=13553
75. tobeme | December 5, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Dispite what one’s faith is, or if they believe or don’t belivie in a divine being, I do believe that prayer, when said with true belief is a great form of energy that we send out to the universe and that prayer does have a positive impact on the world. Agree, most prayers can not be seen as answered in the way that we had set our self up to believe they would be answered, however, I do believe that they are answered in many ways, and usually in ways that we do not see or understand.
Our linear thinking often blinds us to what miracles are happening all around us.
76. Matt | December 5, 2007 at 4:25 pm

I guess you’re not supposed to be praying then. Looks like praying just isn’t your thing. Probably Religion itself isn’t working out so well for you either. Enjoy Naturalism, don’t get so caught up and resentful or bitter against the Religious, they have rights too.
77. CoryScott5 | December 5, 2007 at 5:35 pm

Very good post. This is a very important thing to note….the comments below have no comment on the facts you’ve presented, and offered only personal experience. Perhaps this is what you mean by “They all pulled up short and scurried off into comforting, yet unsatisfactory answers.” If prayers made a difference — there would be proof. But what we se are newscasts about the mother mary’s face on a tree, or a window, or a potato. These are the best miracles that can be dragged out by those who claim their reality. The laws of nature are not suspended, daily and repeatedly, based on the shopping lists of the faithful. Doesn’t happen. The studies prove it, and the facts just get in the way of the scripture. Perhaps that is why they weren’t addressed. Thank you for the post, and I hope to read more of your views.
78. Matt | December 5, 2007 at 10:54 pm

I think there are two valid points that everyone wrestles with here:

1. Praying doesn’t always work for some reason.
2. When applying the scientific method to prayer, it doesn’t hold up.

Here’s your answer:

From a fundie: That’s because the devil is in charge of the scientific method, Francis Bacon talked to demons, you guys!!!!
Other fundie: They’re making this crap up prayers work damnit
Other fundie: God works this way and that way you cant test him blah blaaah

Why I Pray:
Because….it…makes…me…feel…better… no more no less. I am superstitious, I think it works sometimes, I dont even try to understand it. Trying to understand it would prove the atheist right, that its nothing but superstition. But wait, I know it is a superstition, but I choose to embrace prayer anyway.

Why?

1. It makes me feel better. while praying it helps me to meditate on a subject I’m praying about, giving me the ability to address it better. It also makes the said subject more easy to remember. Do I recommend you pray though? Hell no, because I don’t think it makes athiests feel better. I think they feel downright silly, or even hypocritical.

2. Coinsidence or not, I’ve seen prayers work. Perhaps I could be praying to a lump of salt. At any rate, the behavior of praying has been rewarding for me, otherwise I would have stopped. Could this point stand to the scientific method? Hell no, but even knowing that I still like the idea of prayer, even if it is a complete facade. I like it anyway.

3. Praying for others that believe in prayer, makes them feel better too. Yes, I’ve lived it, seen it, it can be emotional, it can be powerful, it can be great.

Do I recommend everyone pray? No, do I think people that believe prayer is nothing but a superstition are WRONG? Absolutely not. I only get pissed off when I’m told my beliefs are wrong. I like to leave room for possibilities. Even my mouse turning into a robot and talking to me, that would be cool, and I don’t care how rediculious it sounds. It’s fun to have an imagination. I dont know, maybe I’m just wired differently.

Being as honest as I can,
Matt
79. mike | December 5, 2007 at 11:07 pm

A Poem by Rumi(13th century muslim):

Love Dogs

One night a man was crying
Allah! Allah!
His lips grew sweet with the praising,
until a cynic said,
“So! I have heard you
calling out, but have you ever
gotten any response

The man had no answer to that.
He quit praying and fell into a confused sleep.

He dreamed de saw Khidr, the guide of souls,
in a thick, green foliage.
“Why did you stop praising?”
“Because I have never heard anything back.”
“This longing
you express is the return message.”

The grief you cry out from
draws you toward union.

Your pure sadness
that wants help
is the secret cup.

Listen to the moan of a dog for its master.
That whining is the connection

There are love dogs
no one knows the name of.

Give your life
to be one of them.

~translated by Coleman Barks, I am a practicing Buddhist, I just thought you might find this useful in your quest for truth.
80. Thinking Ape | December 5, 2007 at 11:14 pm

Cipher says in response to my “God not screwing around with the universe comment:

Well, at that point, it isn’t even Christianity any longer. It’s Deism.

Please don’t forget my qualification: “because we are uncomfortable.” The proper definition of a miracle is generally something that occurs outside the natural order of things; if I am to believe in a theistic, rather than a deistic god, than I can accept such happenings. I would, in fact, expect such things from said god. What I wouldn’t expect is that god to go “out of ‘his’ way” to say “yes” to us all at all the time - that is what some “occult” or “neo-pagan” religions believe and is something that is very common in contemporary Christianity (especially in North America). Whether it is health or wealth, egotistical Christians think God should say “yes” out of eternal mercy, compassion and love (as do skeptical atheists/agnostics).

This is the whole reason that so much of medieval theology centered around selflessness, sacrifice, and suffering: the lives of people during that time were horrible, but instead of blaming a god, they just created different conditions (and probably more scripturally accurate). Now we are materialistic and much more self-assured, since we have less to fear about (no, not getting that new plasma tv is not a real fear - some city-state deciding to pillage your village is), and so we feel we deserve more from our gods of commercialism, statism, and Christianity.

Anyway, that was a tangent - and thank you again cipher for that link, I will check it out.
81. Rachel | December 5, 2007 at 11:52 pm

“I HATE the ‘free will’ excuse. ”

Fair enough. But I still think it’s silly to expect God to go running to the trampoline every time we say “jump” to bail us out of problems that we created for ourselves.

“Life is like a carousel ride. We go round and round, and we become dizzy and think we’re going to fall off. To steady ourselves, we reach out for the first thing available - the brass ring. Unfortunately, it comes off in our hands, so we just continue to go around, denying the unsteadiness. The brass ring is free will.”

So, are you saying here that free will is a delusion we have created for ourselves because we are going round and round into epistemic nihilism?

“because every person of faith knows that we’re all leading lives of debauchery and immorality.”

No, not necessarily. That would be denying Catholic and Calvinist concepts of Natural Law and Common Grace which essentially say that you don’t have to be a believer to know what is good, right, and beautiful.
82. Rachel | December 6, 2007 at 12:07 am

“As a Christian, I sincerely asked God to reveal himself to me in some unmistakable way to me. For years, I got nothing.”

That sounds an awful lot like Mother Theresa’s book that just came out…apparently she spent the last 50 years of her life doubting God’s existence. God’s silence is just as much a mystery to me as it is to you. But I think it has to be said that if God exists, he himself has been to this dark corner of the human experience. Do the words, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” sound familiar? So then