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	<title>Comments on: Challenging Religious Myths 1: No Morality without Religion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The 10 Commandments are an extremely weak basis for morality &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-17300</link>
		<dc:creator>The 10 Commandments are an extremely weak basis for morality &#171; de-conversion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 04:28:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-17300</guid>
		<description>[...] HeIsSailing&#8217;s The Bible does not contain a guideline of moral absolutes, AThinkingMan&#8217;s Challenging Religious Myths 1: No Morality without Religion, and Stellar1&#8217;s You do not need religion to be moral. Of course this is not an exhaustive [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] HeIsSailing&#8217;s The Bible does not contain a guideline of moral absolutes, AThinkingMan&#8217;s Challenging Religious Myths 1: No Morality without Religion, and Stellar1&#8217;s You do not need religion to be moral. Of course this is not an exhaustive [...]</p>
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		<title>By: pericles</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-13037</link>
		<dc:creator>pericles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 01:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-13037</guid>
		<description>Again, we need to see that humans are both selfish and altruists. It gives us an evolutionary advantage. 

Furthermore, if morality is based on religion then it has negative meaning because such morality is based on fair of eternal punishment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Again, we need to see that humans are both selfish and altruists. It gives us an evolutionary advantage. </p>
<p>Furthermore, if morality is based on religion then it has negative meaning because such morality is based on fair of eternal punishment.</p>
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		<title>By: Challenging Religious Myths 2: Atheism is just another Religion &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12861</link>
		<dc:creator>Challenging Religious Myths 2: Atheism is just another Religion &#171; de-conversion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12861</guid>
		<description>[...] See also: Challenging Religious Myths 1: No Morality without Religion [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] See also: Challenging Religious Myths 1: No Morality without Religion [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12701</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 20:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12701</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Christianity is based on confessing that you are a breaker of God’s law, worthy of the death penalty, but allowed to be forgiven, if trust is placed on Jesus having died in your place, and having the right to be both your Savior and Lord.&lt;/i&gt;

This makes absolutely no sense to me. It says to me, "We're horrible, but it doesn't matter." Fine. So I'm intrinsically depraved, but I'm absolutely forgiven. So what?

The catch is, of course, &lt;i&gt;god's law&lt;/i&gt;. There are only two options: Either this god communicates its law to me &lt;i&gt;directly&lt;/i&gt;, in which case my own moral intuition can be taken as authoritative.

In this case, &lt;i&gt;everyone&lt;/i&gt; is entitled to call himself a just as good a Christian as anyone else: you, me, my uncle Fred, Gandhi, Hitler, bin Laden, Calley, Eichmann, Bojaxhiu, Schweitzer, and Darwin. It doesn't draw any sort of meaningful distinction.

Alternatively, this law might be communicated &lt;i&gt;indirectly&lt;/i&gt;, via scripture, prophets and/or priests. But if you have privileged some &lt;i&gt;external&lt;/i&gt; source as authoritative, then you have just established a religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Christianity is based on confessing that you are a breaker of God’s law, worthy of the death penalty, but allowed to be forgiven, if trust is placed on Jesus having died in your place, and having the right to be both your Savior and Lord.</i></p>
<p>This makes absolutely no sense to me. It says to me, &#8220;We&#8217;re horrible, but it doesn&#8217;t matter.&#8221; Fine. So I&#8217;m intrinsically depraved, but I&#8217;m absolutely forgiven. So what?</p>
<p>The catch is, of course, <i>god&#8217;s law</i>. There are only two options: Either this god communicates its law to me <i>directly</i>, in which case my own moral intuition can be taken as authoritative.</p>
<p>In this case, <i>everyone</i> is entitled to call himself a just as good a Christian as anyone else: you, me, my uncle Fred, Gandhi, Hitler, bin Laden, Calley, Eichmann, Bojaxhiu, Schweitzer, and Darwin. It doesn&#8217;t draw any sort of meaningful distinction.</p>
<p>Alternatively, this law might be communicated <i>indirectly</i>, via scripture, prophets and/or priests. But if you have privileged some <i>external</i> source as authoritative, then you have just established a religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Merrill</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12696</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Merrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 19:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12696</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with the claims of how detrimental religion has been upon the face of this planet for the people of the world.  I am glad as having been a Christian for over forty-eight years, and a pastor of a church for nearly ten years, that I am not religious.   The church so often referred to by historians and atheists is the Catholic Church, a true religion.   True Christianity is not a religion, no matter the statements to the contrary by historians and atheists, but a real spiritual relationship to the living Lord, Jesus Christ.   All religions are based on being good to be accepted by God.   Christianity is based on confessing that you are a breaker of God's law, worthy of the death penalty, but allowed to be forgiven, if trust is placed on Jesus having died in your place, and having the right to be both your Savior and Lord.  To know more go to www.centinelabible.org. and may God lead you to He that is the truth, Jesus Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with the claims of how detrimental religion has been upon the face of this planet for the people of the world.  I am glad as having been a Christian for over forty-eight years, and a pastor of a church for nearly ten years, that I am not religious.   The church so often referred to by historians and atheists is the Catholic Church, a true religion.   True Christianity is not a religion, no matter the statements to the contrary by historians and atheists, but a real spiritual relationship to the living Lord, Jesus Christ.   All religions are based on being good to be accepted by God.   Christianity is based on confessing that you are a breaker of God&#8217;s law, worthy of the death penalty, but allowed to be forgiven, if trust is placed on Jesus having died in your place, and having the right to be both your Savior and Lord.  To know more go to <a href="http://www.centinelabible.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.centinelabible.org</a>. and may God lead you to He that is the truth, Jesus Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: loopyloo350</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12691</link>
		<dc:creator>loopyloo350</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12691</guid>
		<description>Barefoot Bum: Thank you for the clarification. I personally have no problem believing in evolution and see no value in denying something that is obvious. People who try to make the world fit into their way of belief are the same to me as flatworlders. I accept the fact that I will never know everything and take great delight in searching for knowledge. i do not see this as a conflict with my belief or my faith. Each person has to find the path that is right for them and not go blindly into the darkness. If we don't explore and feed our curiousity then we die. I personally love to hear how others define their belief/disbelif. In fact found and interesting blog awhile ago that compares Christianity with Wicca. Who knew?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barefoot Bum: Thank you for the clarification. I personally have no problem believing in evolution and see no value in denying something that is obvious. People who try to make the world fit into their way of belief are the same to me as flatworlders. I accept the fact that I will never know everything and take great delight in searching for knowledge. i do not see this as a conflict with my belief or my faith. Each person has to find the path that is right for them and not go blindly into the darkness. If we don&#8217;t explore and feed our curiousity then we die. I personally love to hear how others define their belief/disbelif. In fact found and interesting blog awhile ago that compares Christianity with Wicca. Who knew?</p>
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		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12690</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 18:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12690</guid>
		<description>loopyloo: Sorry. It's just that evolution ought to be as much of a no-brainer as gravity. It is a non-trivial subject, to be sure, but the two fundamental principles are fairly straightforward: Random &lt;i&gt;mutation&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;natural&lt;/i&gt; selection. Natural selection is not random, it is occurs by natural law, reducible (in principle) to the laws of physics. All the rest is &lt;i&gt;how&lt;/i&gt; these principles operate.

If you want to learn more about evolution, there are any number of good books on the subject, aimed at a lay audience. A search for evolution on Amazon will give a number of books with a diversity of views. Dawkins book, &lt;i&gt;The Selfish Gene&lt;/i&gt; is especially good.

&lt;a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Charles Darwin's&lt;/a&gt; seminal works, including &lt;i&gt;The Origin of Species&lt;i&gt; are available online and are quite accessible, if you can get past his Victorian style.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>loopyloo: Sorry. It&#8217;s just that evolution ought to be as much of a no-brainer as gravity. It is a non-trivial subject, to be sure, but the two fundamental principles are fairly straightforward: Random <i>mutation</i> and <i>natural</i> selection. Natural selection is not random, it is occurs by natural law, reducible (in principle) to the laws of physics. All the rest is <i>how</i> these principles operate.</p>
<p>If you want to learn more about evolution, there are any number of good books on the subject, aimed at a lay audience. A search for evolution on Amazon will give a number of books with a diversity of views. Dawkins book, <i>The Selfish Gene</i> is especially good.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/" rel="nofollow">Charles Darwin&#8217;s</a> seminal works, including <i>The Origin of Species</i><i> are available online and are quite accessible, if you can get past his Victorian style.</i></p>
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		<title>By: loopyloo350</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12680</link>
		<dc:creator>loopyloo350</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12680</guid>
		<description>Barefoot Bum: I ask questions because whether I agree with them or not I like to know the reasoning of other people. I am not a scientist and have never claimed to so "scientific ignorance" fits quite well, thank you. I also never claimed to be so arrogant as to answer peoples questions without denigrating the person themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barefoot Bum: I ask questions because whether I agree with them or not I like to know the reasoning of other people. I am not a scientist and have never claimed to so &#8220;scientific ignorance&#8221; fits quite well, thank you. I also never claimed to be so arrogant as to answer peoples questions without denigrating the person themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: The Barefoot Bum</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12672</link>
		<dc:creator>The Barefoot Bum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12672</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Are morals learned behavior or are they genetic?&lt;/i&gt;

Both.

&lt;i&gt;Without faith that there is a higher power to rectify the imbalance when laws fail to protect those they are designed to protect, what reason would there be to follow the laws or accept that the judgement sometimes fails?&lt;/i&gt;

Why do I have to be certain of perfect justice to follow laws? The need to fantasize the certainty of some perfect justice (which always &lt;i&gt;mirabile dictu!&lt;/i&gt; conforms precisely to each individual believer's prejudices and preferences) says volumes about the believer and nothing at all about the world.

&lt;i&gt;If morals are learned, there has to be some reason, some hope that causes there to be a reward for following those moral values. Accepting imperfection and going on with our lives has to be profitable.&lt;/i&gt;

The writer needs to learn about probabilistic game theory. Even given imperfection, I can rationally conclude that &lt;i&gt;overall&lt;/i&gt;, conforming to an imperfect law is profitable.

&lt;i&gt;And if they are genetic, who designed the genetic code.&lt;/i&gt;

No one. It evolved.

&lt;i&gt;Random selection does not seem to answer all the questions either.&lt;/i&gt;

Indeed. 'Tis a good thing, then, that evolution has nothing at all to do with "random selection". The writer here does nothing but expose his or her own scientific ignorance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Are morals learned behavior or are they genetic?</i></p>
<p>Both.</p>
<p><i>Without faith that there is a higher power to rectify the imbalance when laws fail to protect those they are designed to protect, what reason would there be to follow the laws or accept that the judgement sometimes fails?</i></p>
<p>Why do I have to be certain of perfect justice to follow laws? The need to fantasize the certainty of some perfect justice (which always <i>mirabile dictu!</i> conforms precisely to each individual believer&#8217;s prejudices and preferences) says volumes about the believer and nothing at all about the world.</p>
<p><i>If morals are learned, there has to be some reason, some hope that causes there to be a reward for following those moral values. Accepting imperfection and going on with our lives has to be profitable.</i></p>
<p>The writer needs to learn about probabilistic game theory. Even given imperfection, I can rationally conclude that <i>overall</i>, conforming to an imperfect law is profitable.</p>
<p><i>And if they are genetic, who designed the genetic code.</i></p>
<p>No one. It evolved.</p>
<p><i>Random selection does not seem to answer all the questions either.</i></p>
<p>Indeed. &#8216;Tis a good thing, then, that evolution has nothing at all to do with &#8220;random selection&#8221;. The writer here does nothing but expose his or her own scientific ignorance.</p>
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		<title>By: loopyloo350</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12671</link>
		<dc:creator>loopyloo350</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 14:39:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/07/challenging-religious-myths-1/#comment-12671</guid>
		<description>Are morals learned behavior or are they genetic? Without faith that there is a higher power to rectify the imbalance when laws fail to protect those they are designed to protect, what reason would there be to follow the laws or accept that the judgement sometimes fails? If morals are learned, there has to be some reason, some hope that causes there to be a reward for following those moral values. Accepting imperfection and going on with our lives has to be profitable. And if they are genetic, who designed the genetic code. Random selection does not seem to answer all the questions either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are morals learned behavior or are they genetic? Without faith that there is a higher power to rectify the imbalance when laws fail to protect those they are designed to protect, what reason would there be to follow the laws or accept that the judgement sometimes fails? If morals are learned, there has to be some reason, some hope that causes there to be a reward for following those moral values. Accepting imperfection and going on with our lives has to be profitable. And if they are genetic, who designed the genetic code. Random selection does not seem to answer all the questions either.</p>
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