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	<title>Comments on: The Good of the Church</title>
	<atom:link href="http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: On Dealing With Christians &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-15515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[On Dealing With Christians &#171; de-conversion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2008 21:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-15515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 3, 2008   Partially as a response to the thoughts of LeoPardus and partially from the evolution of my own psychology and philosophy over the past year or so, here [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 3, 2008   Partially as a response to the thoughts of LeoPardus and partially from the evolution of my own psychology and philosophy over the past year or so, here [...]</p>
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		<title>By: boxofbirds</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[boxofbirds]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 21:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with your main point that converts usually emphasize the bad of their previous position. But, I do have to strongly disagree with you on your statement that &quot;the preservation of knowledge and literacy through the Dark Ages was in no small part due to the Church...&quot;

I would have to say that the exact opposite is true. One could reasonably say that virtually all humanistic and scientific advancement was severely and intentionally halted or destroyed by the Church.

I think Richard Carrier outlines it best in this blog post:
http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2006/11/science-and-medieval-christianity.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with your main point that converts usually emphasize the bad of their previous position. But, I do have to strongly disagree with you on your statement that &#8220;the preservation of knowledge and literacy through the Dark Ages was in no small part due to the Church&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>I would have to say that the exact opposite is true. One could reasonably say that virtually all humanistic and scientific advancement was severely and intentionally halted or destroyed by the Church.</p>
<p>I think Richard Carrier outlines it best in this blog post:<br />
<a href="http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2006/11/science-and-medieval-christianity.html" rel="nofollow">http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2006/11/science-and-medieval-christianity.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Michelle</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michelle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 21:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Refreshing... Thank you.
I don&#039;t like being considered the &quot;boogey man&quot; because I&#039;m Christian. I try not to pigeon hole people with differing beliefs in that way.
As I said in a previous comment: 
Either you have faith or you do not- neither option intrinsically makes you good/bad , smart/ignorant, backward/progressive.
So Geldoff is Atheist, Bono is Christian and I appreciate the work both have done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Refreshing&#8230; Thank you.<br />
I don&#8217;t like being considered the &#8220;boogey man&#8221; because I&#8217;m Christian. I try not to pigeon hole people with differing beliefs in that way.<br />
As I said in a previous comment:<br />
Either you have faith or you do not- neither option intrinsically makes you good/bad , smart/ignorant, backward/progressive.<br />
So Geldoff is Atheist, Bono is Christian and I appreciate the work both have done.</p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 01:31:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Karen&#039;s post (#44) prompted me to do a little snooping to see what I could come up with for large charities/philanthropies.  A couple links.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_1_28/ai_n15999434

There are number of sizable, non-religious groups in the lists.  And of course these lists are almost exclusively US. So I&#039;m sure there are lots more in the rest of the world.

There are some caveats to these lists. 
-There are 1000&#039;s of organizations, religious and non, that aren&#039;t on the list. No one really knows how much money they all account for.
-Information on some things are very hard to find or to assess in terms of just where the money, time, etc go. One example would be missionary spending. Another would be things like the handouts given by the US military during foreign operations.

Anyway, I&#039;ve now come up with a fair chunk of non-religious giving.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen&#8217;s post (#44) prompted me to do a little snooping to see what I could come up with for large charities/philanthropies.  A couple links.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_1_28/ai_n15999434" rel="nofollow">http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m5072/is_1_28/ai_n15999434</a></p>
<p>There are number of sizable, non-religious groups in the lists.  And of course these lists are almost exclusively US. So I&#8217;m sure there are lots more in the rest of the world.</p>
<p>There are some caveats to these lists.<br />
-There are 1000&#8242;s of organizations, religious and non, that aren&#8217;t on the list. No one really knows how much money they all account for.<br />
-Information on some things are very hard to find or to assess in terms of just where the money, time, etc go. One example would be missionary spending. Another would be things like the handouts given by the US military during foreign operations.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;ve now come up with a fair chunk of non-religious giving.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[karen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 00:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking of non-Christians doing good, I recently realized that three of the world&#039;s top philanthropists are atheists! I&#039;m talking about Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Bob Geldof. 

Many other, lesser non-theists also devote their lives to helping others in one way or another - they simply don&#039;t have the organizational structure or the size or the PR to get noticed, like the larger Christian denominations do.

Certainly not arguing that Christianity hasn&#039;t done loads of good for the world - it&#039;s clear that it has. However, one has to balance this with the fact that over the last couple of millennia it was not only unpopular to be a nonbeliver, it was actually illegal! So there were likely always atheists, but I imagine that most/all of them were in the closet for many centuries.

It&#039;s really only been since 9/11 that coming out as an atheist has started to be reasonably acceptable. In many families and communities, of course, it still is not acceptable. I think that if we continue moving toward more tolerance for the non-religious, we&#039;ll start to hear more about atheists and agnostics organizing to do good, or at least visibly contributing to other secular efforts to make the world a better place.

The other thing I would mention in terms of good works are Buddhist charities. I don&#039;t know a ton about them, but I know in my old neighborhood there was an office of the Tzu Chi Foundation for Compassionate Relief. They did global charity work on behalf of Buddhists.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of non-Christians doing good, I recently realized that three of the world&#8217;s top philanthropists are atheists! I&#8217;m talking about Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Bob Geldof. </p>
<p>Many other, lesser non-theists also devote their lives to helping others in one way or another &#8211; they simply don&#8217;t have the organizational structure or the size or the PR to get noticed, like the larger Christian denominations do.</p>
<p>Certainly not arguing that Christianity hasn&#8217;t done loads of good for the world &#8211; it&#8217;s clear that it has. However, one has to balance this with the fact that over the last couple of millennia it was not only unpopular to be a nonbeliver, it was actually illegal! So there were likely always atheists, but I imagine that most/all of them were in the closet for many centuries.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s really only been since 9/11 that coming out as an atheist has started to be reasonably acceptable. In many families and communities, of course, it still is not acceptable. I think that if we continue moving toward more tolerance for the non-religious, we&#8217;ll start to hear more about atheists and agnostics organizing to do good, or at least visibly contributing to other secular efforts to make the world a better place.</p>
<p>The other thing I would mention in terms of good works are Buddhist charities. I don&#8217;t know a ton about them, but I know in my old neighborhood there was an office of the Tzu Chi Foundation for Compassionate Relief. They did global charity work on behalf of Buddhists.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13576</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Dec 2007 20:39:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Iris said, &lt;blockquote&gt;it is important to note that the U.S. gov’t in particular, under the influence of neo-conservative capitalists with *christian ideologies* (The Holy war/Crusade/West vs. the Rest) are in part responsible for the ‘mess’ that is the growth of fundy Islam. We (and Israel) have intentionally funded/supported fundy religious groups, parties, leaders or dictators in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt-subverting secularists in the region. Our blatant imperialist policies (with some historical ‘justifications’ in Manifest Destiny) have also contributed to the rise of fundy Islam in the M.E. and Europe–as many who are desperately poor/disenfranchised/assaulted by sanctions or literal warfare have turned to their ‘only’ visible alternative (fundy Islam), which is in fact strengthening the ‘reasons’ for U.S. involvement in the ‘East’ (which feeds fundy sentiment, etc, and on and on).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I would agree that the US government&#039;s foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired.  But let&#039;s not forget the fact that although there is a lot of American bashing going on in the Muslim world, the vast majority of Islamic militancy and violence occurs between different sects of Muslims.  In fact, the goal of Islamic militancy is to make Islamic shariah law the sole religion of the world.  I would argue not to lay a disproportionate amount of blame on anyone but the fundamentalist Muslims who have bastardized the Quran to impose their distorted view of religion upon others.  The poverty and disenfranchisement that Islamic militants may feel has less to do with American foreign policy and more to do with their own society&#039;s ardent refusal to adapt to the modern world that has completely passed them by.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iris said,<br />
<blockquote>it is important to note that the U.S. gov’t in particular, under the influence of neo-conservative capitalists with *christian ideologies* (The Holy war/Crusade/West vs. the Rest) are in part responsible for the ‘mess’ that is the growth of fundy Islam. We (and Israel) have intentionally funded/supported fundy religious groups, parties, leaders or dictators in Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Egypt-subverting secularists in the region. Our blatant imperialist policies (with some historical ‘justifications’ in Manifest Destiny) have also contributed to the rise of fundy Islam in the M.E. and Europe–as many who are desperately poor/disenfranchised/assaulted by sanctions or literal warfare have turned to their ‘only’ visible alternative (fundy Islam), which is in fact strengthening the ‘reasons’ for U.S. involvement in the ‘East’ (which feeds fundy sentiment, etc, and on and on).</p></blockquote>
<p>I would agree that the US government&#8217;s foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired.  But let&#8217;s not forget the fact that although there is a lot of American bashing going on in the Muslim world, the vast majority of Islamic militancy and violence occurs between different sects of Muslims.  In fact, the goal of Islamic militancy is to make Islamic shariah law the sole religion of the world.  I would argue not to lay a disproportionate amount of blame on anyone but the fundamentalist Muslims who have bastardized the Quran to impose their distorted view of religion upon others.  The poverty and disenfranchisement that Islamic militants may feel has less to do with American foreign policy and more to do with their own society&#8217;s ardent refusal to adapt to the modern world that has completely passed them by.</p>
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		<title>By: Thinking Ape</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13475</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thinking Ape]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 20:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13475</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[wolfshowl,
&lt;blockquote&gt;ThinkingApe,
For your information, I have actually recently completed my minor in Religious Studies. I have studied them and clearly understand them better than you ever will.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Is this really something you want to say? You completely destroy any credibility of your self-proclaimed academic credentials by resting on them for your authority. The only reason I would ever bring up credentials is so that we know where each other are coming from. I don&#039;t speak to someone with no academic training the same way I would debate someone with a PhD, for obvious reasons. I find it humourous that you think that attaining a minor in any academic subject (which is anywhere from taking 4 to 8 courses in the subject over 4 years) allows you to say something as ignorant as &quot;[I] clearly understand them better than you ever will.&quot; Even my academic supervisor, who has studied under Jonathan Z. Smith himself, would never say something so bold and unprofessional.

We have been called a lot of things on this website, but pretentious ex-pastors who want to crawl back into fundyism is a new one. Perhaps you should read some of our other posts and shut your ignorant trap.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wolfshowl,</p>
<blockquote><p>ThinkingApe,<br />
For your information, I have actually recently completed my minor in Religious Studies. I have studied them and clearly understand them better than you ever will.</p></blockquote>
<p>Is this really something you want to say? You completely destroy any credibility of your self-proclaimed academic credentials by resting on them for your authority. The only reason I would ever bring up credentials is so that we know where each other are coming from. I don&#8217;t speak to someone with no academic training the same way I would debate someone with a PhD, for obvious reasons. I find it humourous that you think that attaining a minor in any academic subject (which is anywhere from taking 4 to 8 courses in the subject over 4 years) allows you to say something as ignorant as &#8220;[I] clearly understand them better than you ever will.&#8221; Even my academic supervisor, who has studied under Jonathan Z. Smith himself, would never say something so bold and unprofessional.</p>
<p>We have been called a lot of things on this website, but pretentious ex-pastors who want to crawl back into fundyism is a new one. Perhaps you should read some of our other posts and shut your ignorant trap.</p>
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		<title>By: The Myth of God&#8217;s Unconditional Love &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13473</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Myth of God&#8217;s Unconditional Love &#171; de-conversion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] peace on earth but resulted in wars and fear. However, as LeoPardus recently pointed out, there are some good things that can be attributed to birth of the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] peace on earth but resulted in wars and fear. However, as LeoPardus recently pointed out, there are some good things that can be attributed to birth of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bry0000000</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bry0000000]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 07:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually wolf, read Nietzsche. 

And for someone who isn&#039;t reading the site anymore, you&#039;re visiting quite a lot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually wolf, read Nietzsche. </p>
<p>And for someone who isn&#8217;t reading the site anymore, you&#8217;re visiting quite a lot.</p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 06:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://de-conversion.com/2007/12/21/the-good-of-the-church/#comment-13450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops. Missed this bit:

&lt;i&gt;You people clearly can’t handle having anybody criticize you.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;m rubber. You&#039;re glue. Your words bounce off me, and stick to you.

Anyway, I&#039;m trying to reach you on your own maturity level.  Ya grokkin&#039; me yet?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. Missed this bit:</p>
<p><i>You people clearly can’t handle having anybody criticize you.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m rubber. You&#8217;re glue. Your words bounce off me, and stick to you.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m trying to reach you on your own maturity level.  Ya grokkin&#8217; me yet?</p>
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