de-conversion

52 Comments Add your own

• 1. Julian Rodriguez  |  December 25, 2007 at 2:28 pm

  “its origin”, its, not “it’s”.
  merci, arigato, thanks, sayonara

• 2. epiphanist  |  December 25, 2007 at 6:49 pm

  The apostate’s apostrophe - go Julian!

• 3. TheNorEaster  |  December 25, 2007 at 10:32 pm

  That’s…Well, it’s actually pretty sad that you don’t believe in love.

  thenoreaster.wordpress.com

• 4. JP Manzi  |  December 25, 2007 at 10:34 pm

  Great thoughts, through all the words,actions, rules, can and can nots littered throughout the bible, its quite hard to see this unconditional love that christians claim is there.

• 5. dovelove  |  December 25, 2007 at 10:43 pm

  What I’ve never been able to get is how another individual’s death somehow makes ME a better person, suddenly worthy of “heaven,” — if I will just “believe” in him. It’s a total absurdity — not one bit of sense does it make. I can’t comprehend why someone would see this as truth.

  Now I have “beliefs” that others would likely say similar things about, lol, but at least I can make some points toward how it makes sense to me — and those are primarily personal experiences But that’s another topic.

  To me, you can make some sense of the stories in the old book if you see it along the lines of dream interpretation. In a dream class I took once, the teacher indicated that our dreams are filled with symbolism, things and people that ALL represent us

  What if “God” were us, Jesus too. What if his death was simply symbolic of “letting go” of the fear (which the Devil personifies, again symbolic), which is the same as having “faith.”

  We have faith, when we’re not fearing. And since both God and Jesus are actually symbols of us, we are being told to have faith in, and worship (self-love), ourselves, so as to avoid that wicked ole hell (suffering).

  “Be still and know that I am God.” Know that we each have that “godness” within us, that power to do “that which Jesus did and more.” Ya’ see, to me, you can pretty much do this all day long and make some sense of the old book. And it tends to eliminate the contradictions That in itself lends more credence to it. But people have been taught/brainwashed for so long that they are these pieces of sh*t, that it’s totally beyond their comprehension that they are truly “children of God.” That is, that there is a potent energy within them, that is them, that is sooo not the garbage that traditional religion teaches. But if a lion is raised/taught that he is a sheep, it’s gonna be difficult to convince him otherwise…

  It makes sense that we should love (worship) ourselves, have faith in our own power. If you were God, “father” of all, wouldn’t those be the kinda people you would want — strong, fearless, self-loving… As opposed to whiny, it’s-not-my-fault people, giving Jesus/God all their power to make it all better, and blaming their “bads” on the “Devil”? Of what value are those people?? But we aren’t really those people.

  It makes sense that when we let go of the fear (death represents transformation, change, rebirth into something new), we will be headed toward “heaven” (simply meaning peace) and will avoid “hell” (suffering). Indeed the Devil is the culprit, but it’s the “devil” within us. Because the devil simply represents fear. “Fear not.” Makes sense. We draw/create that which we fear. No? Ask a star athlete if fearing that he/she is going to lose the race is their secret to winning

  If you know symbolism, and apply it in this, it all makes sense. And for sure more sense than someone named Jesus dies, and that takes away all our accountability… just because we believe it. No sense there whatsoever. And no one truly believes that (because it makes no sense, lol), they just say that they do. And they know they don’t truly believe it, and consequently these people live and breathe fear (”hell’). The very thing they are being instructed to not do.

  Peace,
  Dove

• 6. LeoPardus  |  December 26, 2007 at 1:56 am

  One moment while I look in my ‘apologists handbook’. Aha! His love is unconditional. He loves you no matter what. BUT blessings are conditional and acceptance into heaven is a blessing. And the blessings get bestowed ….. well, pretty randomly.

  Hmm.. unconditional love and capricious actions. Kind of reminds me of a kindly old senility victim.

• 7. newcolors  |  December 26, 2007 at 11:17 am

  You raise a goo point. However…I believe that God’s love is indeed unconditional. It is unconditional because even you my friend, are welcome to accept the free gift of Salvation that can only be found in Yeshua of Nazereth. As well, you are free to reject this gift of unconditional love as you seem to be doing. It is your choice. I believe your problem of understanding rests in your ommission of a theme that is constant thruout all of Scripture….REPENT.

  God offers His unconditional love to all who would repent and accept His gift. To think that you can say a little prayer asking Jesus into your heart and then live how you want…is a myth espoused by post-modern Christianity. It is not Scriptural. So…perhaps you are right after all…there is a condition…a condition of humbling oneself to recognize that they have sinned and a willingness to change one’s actions….to walk in the footsteps of the Master.

  Thanks for letting me jump in…
  Newcolors

• 8. Jack Ling  |  December 26, 2007 at 12:44 pm

  Wow, you sound like you know it all. How were you raised?

• 9. roopster  |  December 26, 2007 at 12:52 pm

  newcolors,

  Jump in anytime. Love cannot be unconditional if there’s a condition attached to it. It’s ok for love to be conditional (as it is in most cases). Why keep insisting otherwise? That was the point of my post.

  Jack,

  Were you addressing me or newcolors? If me, I was raised on the mission field. Lots of great memories there.

  Paul

• 10. jasmincormier  |  December 26, 2007 at 2:05 pm

  Very good article and good reflexion on religious hypocrisy.

• 11. dovelove  |  December 26, 2007 at 2:19 pm

  “God offers His unconditional love to all who would repent and accept His gift.”

  Oh-muh-gawd, lol, that’s so funny! Oh-wait, that wasn’t supposed to be funny, was it, heh

  =================
  Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

  un·con·di·tion·al /ˌʌnkənˈdɪʃənl/

  adjective

  > not limited by conditions; absolute: an unconditional promise.

  ==================

  Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

  con·di·tion /kənˈdɪʃən/

  noun

  > something demanded as an essential part of an agreement; provision; stipulation: He accepted on one condition.

• 12. jimmycracka  |  December 26, 2007 at 4:03 pm

  Alright bro, first of all, militant secularists are gonna love hearing this come from a Christian. There are some things God is not capable of doing! Whoa! Yes…….God CANNOT LIE!!! If the bible says God’s love FOR HIS CHILDREN, (not saved=not a child of God), is unconditional than thatsThe Truth. The Old Testament is full of stories of ” if” and “when” yes. These time frames God used to teach us things through various illustrations. That time frame you had to “work”your way to God. The lesson was it turned out, you can’t! It was a totally different dispensation from the New Testament times and , now. The OT’s main purpose was to establish Law in order to teach us in post NT times, to self regulate. However, the NT teaches us that we are now no longer bound by Law we are bound by Grace. God knows we cannot abide by the law successfully so he gave us Jesus to take the punishment for …US…. breaking the Law. Point being, people want the easy way out. They want to live like pigs in the “gray area” of moral relativism with NO ACCOUNTABILITY. They want a god that loves them no matter who they hurt or how wretched of a life they live. Message to all: If thats how you want it, God gave you the right to believe whatever you want to. So go ahead and create a god out of your own imagination which nobody better than you knows how “righteous” your imagination is. But! You may be in for a disappointment when that god of yours aint the one sitting at The Judgment Seat. God through His unconditional love will let His kids go through some unpleasant things in life but it all works to good. Some of that you may never know till your in the presence of God Himself so He can point that out to you. The Lord’s salvation is easy and simple. Seek and ye shall find. I’m by far no perfect person and even more, a perfect Christian, but I can’t deny the facts of the bible……………………Jimmy

• 13. Paul S.  |  December 26, 2007 at 4:20 pm

  jimmycracka said,
  

  The OT’s main purpose was to establish Law in order to teach us in post NT times, to self regulate. However, the NT teaches us that we are now no longer bound by Law we are bound by Grace.

  “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

  jimmycracka said,
  

  …but I can’t deny the facts of the bible

  Which “facts” are those?

• 14. tobeme  |  December 26, 2007 at 5:22 pm

  From what I understand that according to most Christian beliefs, the reserection of Jesus changed God from a vengful God to a benevolent one.

• 15. TheNorEaster  |  December 26, 2007 at 5:32 pm

  I am curious. Using the same line of “if…then..” reasoning, how would you explain The Book of Job? I’m asking because, according to the Bible, Job was “blameless and upright” in God’s eyes. If Job was doing what God wanted–according to the reasoning cited in “The Myth of Unconditional Love”–he should have had an easy, happy-go-lucky life. And yet Job suffered tremendously, losing his wealth, his family, and his health. Interestingly enough, after all of that, Job still chose to believe in God. I hope you respond because I am very interested in reading your response. No matter how hard I tried to fit the “if…then…” reasoning cited in your essay into the story of Job, I just couldn’t do it.

• 16. bry0000000  |  December 26, 2007 at 5:37 pm

  I do invite you to read the site that jimmycracka linked to, especially if you aren’t familiar with militant fundamentalism.

• 17. dovelove  |  December 26, 2007 at 5:55 pm

  “God offers His unconditional love to all who would repent and accept His gift.”

  So let’s play with this for a minute The only way this isn’t an absurd contradictiorn is to look at it this way. Unconditional love. It’s there, period. This “God” (”God is love” is within us, it is us. We’ve already got it, NO MATTER WHAT (unconditional). But, it may as well not be there if we don’t recognize that’s it’s there. Like the lion believing it’s a sheep What good does it do him being a lion, if he lives as if he’s a sheep and takes no advantage of the power in being a lion? Hence, “the gift” in being aware that he/she is a lion

  “Repent” — make a change for the better, let go of all the fear (um, I dunno, maybe stop calling people pigs), embrace the good (and all the rest) that we each are, because, says “God,” you are me “God” Love yourself unconditionally, and you will have no problem doing this once you realize that you are me “God” And with this knowledge you will become as Jesus. “Believeth in ‘Him’…” We are each “him” That knowledge is “the gift.” That knowledge will lead you to “heaven” (peace and true power), and it will pull you out of the “fires of hell” — the suffering that we see everywhere we look in this world, a world of lions believing they’re sheep, enslaved by those who would keep them fearful, so as to control and use them… Religion being one of the most insidious taskmasters.

  Regardless, says God you will always be in my heart (unconditional love), because you are all my “children” What loving parent would trash/burn a child that misbehaved? — especially after promising UNCONDITIONAL love.

  And, per Dove I’d take a sweetheart of an atheist in a hot New York minute over one who references others in a vile and judgmental way (eager to see them burn), thinking, funnily enough, that they are better, not because of their good ways (they admit to having few, if any), but simply because they spew ridiculous “beliefs.”

  Dove

• 18. roopster  |  December 26, 2007 at 6:10 pm

  TheNorEaster,

  The Book of Job is a sad story of a cosmic battle between God and Satan using Job as a pawn. In fact, the story depicts the only people in the Bible that Satan was responsible for killing (Job’s kids - with God’s permission) in comparison to the millions noted as killed by God with genocides, plagues, etc.

  You are right in your implication that Job DID NOT deserve what he received. It goes to show that you could even do everything right and still somehow end up facing God’s wrath.

  If the promises of God were true, you are again right in that Job should be living an “easy, happy go-lucky” life. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?

  There’s no way to make sense of the Book of Job in light of what modern Christians believe. However, it makes perfect sense in light of the general theme of the Bible..

  Remember, the point of my post was to show that God’s love IS conditional. Therefore, he can use whatever condition he wants to do whatever he wants. In Job’s case, he wanted to prove a point to Satan (why do you think he needed to do that?). So really Job does fit my points.

  Remember that it’s futile to try to make sense of story of Job, the mass killings of men, women, children, animals, etc. in the Bible. It’ll only cause frustration.

  My advise is to not even worry about it and focus on the few verses in the New Testament that shows Jesus being kind and compassionate. Follow those and you’ll be ok.

  Paul

• 19. dovelove  |  December 26, 2007 at 6:42 pm

  We encompass all — “God” emcompasses all. That includes “Satan.” I don’t know the story, I just know that it’s all us (We choose.) So it sounds like Job was having a battle with himself (Good/God vs. Bad/Satan). And if “God is love,” then he/she doesn’t have wicked wrath — that would be another reference to the Satan part Note that I’m using “God” in two different ways here, “God” that encompasses all and “God,” the “good” side of the all-encompassing “God” — the energy that is everything, including us.

  It couldn’t be further from the truth that once we embrace the knowledge that we are “God,” that suddenly our lives become all peachy No. Think about it. If one day you discover that you actually are “God,” that’s gonna rock your world, and all the people around you aren’t THERE. They’re gonna think you’re insane, quitting your job just because you now trust that your job sucks and you’re gonna have faith that the “God” within you is going to show you the way… Your world is going to be turned upside down, and highly chaotic as you endure this huge change (death of your former self/transformation). Plus you will question yourself all the while, because others are, and because you still have so much of the fear that was burned into you from this earthly place. “Fear not.” Remember? That’ll cause ya’ problems no matter how “good” you are.

  No, total peace is quite a ways down the road — even so, you wouldn’t wanna go back to your former life, where fear is all there is. And even on what can become a hellish (Frodo-like) journey, you are growing into your “godness” and a plethora of “heavenly” experieces, “miracles,” will consequently be sprinkled among the hellish-ness, and that makes it totaly worth it You will begin to see more and more each day, that you are in fact “God.” And THAT is why Job continued to believe

  He couldn’t not believe, he had already seen the truth of it. That the power, this “God,” was within him, and that “awareness” creates “miracles.” And I would imagine he saw that even the losing of wealth and all of it, actually made him stronger and more powerful in the long run. All the wealth and earthly things become quite mediocre once one truly becomes aware that they are “God.” After the pain/fear/suffering of the loss of those things to which we’ve become attached (including our “normal” way of living), one actually begins to feel real freedom

  Dove

• 20. TheNorEaster  |  December 26, 2007 at 7:19 pm

  Paul:

  Thanks for responding. I appreciate your point of view. But I have always taken the story of Job–independent from the reasoning cited in “The Myth of Unconditional Love”–from the point of view that, well…

  “If bad things didn’t happen to good people then people would only be good so that bad things didn’t happen to them, which actually means that people really wouldn’t be so good after all.”

  One could apply that to Christianity (through the story of Job) as well as atheism (I think) and pretty much just about any religion, I suppose.

  I just couldn’t see how the story of Job fit into the “If…Then…” reasoning.

  So, to me, the story of Job is pretty much about believing what you believe even when life is tough. And I think one could assign that point of view to just about any belief because every belief system will face its own drastic challenges sooner or later.

  thenoreaster.wordpress.com

• 21. Paul S.  |  December 26, 2007 at 8:36 pm

  dovelove,

  please stop with all the smilies! it’s very distracting to someone reading your posts

• 22. dovelove  |  December 27, 2007 at 12:00 am

  Well thanks, Paul, for letting me know. I never really thought about it being a problem for others reading my posts/comments. When I write, it’s invariably something I feel passionate about, so my happy heart just kinda comes through that way : ) But I’m glad you’ve pointed this out to me, I’ll keep it in mind when I’m commenting, or posting at my blog. When I just can’t resist, I’ll do this —> : ) lol ; -)

  Okay, so hopefully those won’t come out yellow-faced. *ugh, resisting the urge to put a happy face here* It’s an addiction, it’ll take some time, lol

  Dove

• 23. confusedchristian  |  December 27, 2007 at 11:27 am

  Allow me to interject:

  1. God is a just God, and he doesn’t lie.

  2. Man screwed up, not God, God warned man not to eat from the Tree of knowledge

  3. God is just and said man has to die (spiritually)

  4. BECAUSE of God’s LOVE he has sent HIS ONLY SON to DIE for your sins and repair what happened earlier. Because God does not LIE, and is JUST, this is the only way!

  You see it makes perfect sense! Now convert!

• 24. Paul S.  |  December 27, 2007 at 12:41 pm

  Allow me to interject:

  1. God is not a just God, and he does lie.

  2. God created man in His image. If man screwed up, it’s because God created our ability to screw up.

  3. God is not just. Where did God say man has to die spiritually?

  4. God = Jesus. Therefore, God sent Himself to die to repair the mistake He made when He made mankind?

  It doesn’t make any sense! Now deconvert!

• 25. confusedchristian  |  December 27, 2007 at 12:49 pm

  Paul,
  you’re wrong on so many levels. 1. How can God not be Just when the bible clearly says he is? Also, it doesnt say anywhere in the Bible that God screwed up, in fact, it says eve was tricked by a talking snake. Also, if you re-read your Bible, you’ll clearly see that there is a second death and it has to be talking about the death in Genesis cuz adam didnt die right away. I know the scriptures are hundreds of years apart but that’s why it makes so much sense. Now, God isn’t just Jesus, he’s also the Holy Spirit, but he’s not, but he is. You see he’s three beings, but he’s not.. because Jesus is Jesus but he’s also God, and the Holy Ghost is God too but he’s also just the Holy Ghost. And God the Father is Just the Father but he’s also Jesus, and he’s also the holy spriit. Ok, now that I’ve explained it to you, you have no excuse not to convert!

• 26. Paul S.  |  December 27, 2007 at 4:01 pm

  OK, you’ve convinced me! Where do I sign up?

• 27. Iris  |  December 27, 2007 at 8:32 pm

  smiley lovedove, were you saying that the Xian concept makes sense when you apply a sort of new-agey feel-good postmodernish metaphor thingy to it? If you were not being facetious, I’m confused.

• 28. Iris  |  December 27, 2007 at 10:41 pm

  woah!!! jimmycracka!!!!!! like, if God is not capable of some things, he is not all-powerful!1!!! and, like, God did lie, in the OT!!!!!!!!!!1!!!

  Woah!!!

• 29. notabarbie  |  December 28, 2007 at 12:18 pm

  I think newcolors made a “goo” point, don’t you?
  Hey and I checked out the link that jimmycracka suggested. That pretty much says it all….I’ll just quote Jimmy Buffet here: “religion’s in the hands of some crazy-ass people.”

• 30. confusedchristian  |  December 28, 2007 at 12:41 pm

  Honestly I’m curious about this whole love thing. Where does the Bible say that God unconditionally loves people? Because it is clear that if you disobey his commandments (condition) you will be punished.

• 31. cipher  |  December 29, 2007 at 11:36 am

  I just checked out that Jesus-is-Lord website as well. Absolutely psychotic - graphic descriptions of hell, virulent antisemitism and some of the dumbest statements about world faiths you’ll come across for a good long while. “Jimmycracka” is aptly named.

  I have a folder on my hard drive (with apologies to Bertrand Russell), “Why I am Not a Christian”, in which I keep articles and links to some of the more egregious Christian offenses, just in case I am ever tempted to see Christianity in a more positive light. This one went in right away.

  The great thing about the internet is that it’s egalitarian; it gives everyone a voice. Unfortunately,that’s also its greatest weakness - any moron who can type with two fingers gets to put in his or her two cents, which is about what most of their opinions are worth.

  Regarding imposing this psychosis upon children - I really am beginning to think that we should make the fundies’ paranoid fantasies a reality. We ought to begin legislating against the teaching of this utter crap.

• 32. Michelle  |  December 29, 2007 at 4:56 pm

  Unfortunately, wars and fear are part of the human condition. They were around long before the birth of Christ. And fear mongering is not unique to those who bastardize Christain Theology. It is prevailent in the bastardization of other religions as well.
  The message that I’ve recieved from studying the bible and other texts is that of tolerance.
  This might beg the question- “did I need religion to teach me that tolerance is important?
  Well, not necessarily- I could have picked it up other ways. Honestly, it feels like part of my personality but who can tell.
  Does one need need a physiacs course to undrestand the beauty of a shooting star? Does one need an mechanical engineering degree to learn how to drive a car?
  Either you have faith or you do not- neither option intrinsically makes you good/bad , smart/ignorant, backward/progressive.

• 33. geoff  |  December 29, 2007 at 10:54 pm

  1 Corinthians 2 v 14,
  For the natural man recieves not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are fooolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

• 34. cipher  |  December 29, 2007 at 11:26 pm

  Of course. Isn’t that convenient?

  Do you think that if you just keep quoting scripture, over and over again, that we’re suddenly going to “get it”?

  Or are you, as I suspect, just trying to reassure yourself that we can’t possibly be right?

• 35. dovelove  |  December 30, 2007 at 1:46 am

  “natural man” = left side of the brain, intellect, masculine, “logical”

  “for they are foolishness unto him” = our society (ruled by men) has opressed actual women, as well as pushed down their own feminine side (emotions, spirituality) … they find these things quite foolish. And such an irony given that our “feminine” side is the most powerful part of us. The world is just a reflection of what is going on with us …

  Actual man has also oppressed “natural woman” (right-brain stuff) … “Fools” believing that “natural woman” (and actual woman) is of little value, believing only what they see and deem “logical” … behold the world we have created with this imbalance of energy, this injustice, this ignorance…born right from the symbolic fairy tales of an old book. Wars, slavery, perversion, inconceivable injustice and wickedness, inequality, soooo many putting themslves ABOVE others as if money, and material shit, AND religious crap, were of more value than human beings (aka, “children of God”). Imbalance.

  “spiritually discerned” = that “natural male” (left brain… side of us is clearly different than the female side

  It is the “right-brain, the “natural female” : ) side of us that receives that which is called “Spirit” (spiritual energy, intuition, emotion, creativity, “God”), not the “foolish” left side, “natural male.” Actual male mirrors the energy of, manifested from, “natural male.”

  Dove

• 36. roopster  |  December 30, 2007 at 9:52 am

  Dove,

  I miss the smilies

  Paul

• 37. oakenthief  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:10 am

  Dove, you are laying the weirdest New Age offel onto biblical nonsense…What is natural male or ‘natural’ female is a subject of social debate, patriarchal oppression, and biology. Men are not all logical (or even more logical) than women, and women are not necessarily more emotional, weak, creative or compassionate. We are all crushed into these hideous straight jackets of gender from birth for various socioeconmic functions, in which men have more political power than women. This isn’t the yin and yang, its a serious issue of human history. Patriarchy, what gender actually means–these discussions have to take place with emotional fables to change it. And all the wars and destruction? This isn’t just some imbalance of male and female energy, it’s economics!

  Gah! !!!1!1!!!

• 38. oakenthief  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:12 am

  Oops, that second sentence needs to be adjusted. O/h, and “without emotional fables”. Sorry.

• 39. oakenthief  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:26 am

  Michelle–yes you either have faith or you do not, based on what family you are born into overwhelmingly, and what they indoctrinate you into. When you get older, whether you decide to continue believing one subset of beliefs out of thousands in the face of overwhelming evidence that it is not true, I think the de-converted on this site demonstrate that this is a choice and it does imply things about one’s character–not necessarily bad, but this is true of any belief system or ethical system.

  If my ethics said it’s okay to borrow and never repay, you would draw conclusions about my character, because I choose to follow this practice.

  If I said I believe there is an invisible, all loving God because I read one version of many of a book filled with violence, genocide and scientific untruths, and I believe this all loving deity will damn me to hell forever for not accepting his son, and I believed this in the face of overwhelming evidence…this would say something about my willingness to believe in things with no evidence. That is what faith is, and with any other kind of faith besides religion, we look down upon it in society as potentially harmful.

• 40. oakenthief  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:30 am

  And Dove, in case you think I am being harsh, I am a de-convert of feel-good sacred feminine Wiccan new-agey stuff. The kid gloves come off when we put religion under scrutiny, and the religious and atheist alike defend their thoughts. Vague poetic belief systems that are, like, all about balancing elements and reading the Tarot correctly, no matter how nice the practitioners are, are subject to scrutiny as well.

• 41. oakenthief  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:34 am

  I also find it to be a pet peeve that many of these new agey practitioners, through my own experience, use these ‘cosmic’ systems (tarot, wicca, elements, horoscopes) to avoid directly dealing with politics. They tend to be compassionate people who are also liberal and instead of dealing with politics or economics directly, they read stars. Of course, I’ve known exceptions, some being professors.

• 42. cipher  |  December 30, 2007 at 11:51 am

  Having been through the New Age subculture myself, I’ve long seen it as the ultimate “salad bar” approach to religion. When confronted with the menu of world faiths, they take what they like, leave what they don’t, and, what they do take, they rearrange to suit themselves, with no regard for or understanding of the contexts out of which those ideas were taken.

  And, it’s been my repeated experience that New Agers are as rigidly married to their beliefs as are the conservative Christians. Anyone who offers contradictory evidence has to be pushed aside, so that they can continue to believe. I always find it ironic that they dislike one another so much, as they are really two sides of the same coin. Each is a form of fundamentalism.

• 43. dovelove  |  December 30, 2007 at 12:46 pm

  Well, make up your mind, oh-Paul-o-mine, lol

  Ya’ got some angry peoplez here, all expressing it in different ways, and varying degrees … a reflection of my own angry energy, been workin’ through some “stuff” … and those are invariably the times I wander into such hornet’s nests I’m feelin’ much better now though, so I’m gonna go now, lol, and leave you in, um, peace

  Adieu and have a simply mah-vu-lous New Year, heh

• 44. jimmycracka  |  December 30, 2007 at 2:58 pm

  Wel well well. I’ve learned so much. I’ve learned that The Bible is a lie, because some people with “education” said so and if it wern’t for blogs, I never would have known. I learned Paul doesn’t like smilies. I learned that, a liberated, patchoulie scented woman, while burning incense, chomping on a good bowl of granloa with one hand, hugging a tree with another all well reading Karl Marx with her foot, blaring “Age of Aqaurius”, and while miraculously balancing all this, never through her Chi out of harmony with the magnetic fields of the earth and her oneness with “mother nature” and ………….Jerry Garcia, being the one for the first time in 2000 years to disprove Jesus through a blog, simultaneously winning the affection of all of NOW and every other segment of baby scraping femi-nazi-ism, named dovelove………………………………….WAS GOD!!!!!!! Whoa, I’m out, see ya.

• 45. Michelle  |  December 30, 2007 at 4:38 pm

  Since the topic was brought up, I simply must tell Oakentheif that I was raised by a single mother wiccan with very little exposure to any church. Most of my mainstream religious experience was with a Catholic aunt (who lived 3 hours away) and two neighborhood friends one Unitarian and one Christian. I don’t feel compelled to defend my faith to you or anyone else. I have faith- that’s it, there you go. Sometimes I feel it’s necessary to defend Christianity. However, I choose not to do that with vague references to scripture that may or may not make sense. I believe that not enough can be said about the differences between covenant of the “old testament” (as Christians call it) and the covenant of the “New Testament” in which, when asked ‘what is the most important commandment?’
  Christ states “Love thy neighbor as thyself.”

• 46. roopster  |  December 30, 2007 at 6:23 pm

  Dove,

  There are 2 Pauls on this thread:

  Paul S. - Hates smilies
  Roopster (Paul) - Loves smilies.

  Paul

• 47. Asymptosis  |  December 30, 2007 at 6:35 pm

  I’ve learned that The Bible is a lie, because some people with “education” said so

  That “education” stuff is pretty bad, eh? Like, how an educated person will sometimes actually back up their claims with clear arguments. It is just dreadful.

• 48. dovelove  |  December 30, 2007 at 8:22 pm

  @roopster: Oh. (lol)

  @cracka: Damn, you make me sound good, LOL… And it’s so funny, so many here are calling you, well, kind of a moron, and I just request that you not call people pigs, and yet I’m the one you zero in on, LOL You’re scary — but apparenlty I scare you too.

  @asymptosis: ROFL!

  Peace and au revoir (again) … and for select ones, a special “peace on you”

• 49. Mary Windsor  |  January 4, 2008 at 5:32 am

  wow! love dove sounds just like me! I’m so glad I’m not alone! Lovedove, I presume your ideas extend beyond the old thinking of god, by the way you write. Do you encompass the idea of tomorrows god? this is one I am playing with at the moment and am on the point of dismissing. It all sounds good, but it seems to depend on a belief in a being outside of our selves, or have I got that wrong and am just misinterpreting the meaning of the idea? as far as I’m concerened We ARE tomorrows god, and it is the awakening of that “unconditional” love within ourselves that may just save the world from going down the tubes. Whereas theories I’ve heard seem to be once again encouraging us to give our power away to some fairy story, fictional god. We are god, no mater how egotistical it sounds, so it is within us to bring about world change, just don’t ask me how it will happen!

• 50. Anonymous  |  April 16, 2008 at 1:50 pm

  God is real

• 51. Anonymous  |  April 16, 2008 at 1:57 pm

  Okay, let me be serious. I believe that the bible has many flaws within it. Does it mean that God is not real? No. To make things clear, I am not trying to get anyone to convert to a religion. I jst want to say that if you really want to follow what the Bible says, you will have to find an unbiased, uncorrupted version. Since that is not probable, you will have to go off of the passages that are life enhancing, not life destroying. In this case, get rid of the anti-gay, violent, and intolerant passages in the Bible. In doing so, you will realize that many problems in the world spawn from these passages.

• 52. Anonymous  |  April 16, 2008 at 2:03 pm

  Mary Windsor, you are right. But if you are going to say such things, you are going to have to explain how some bible passages, as well as the Gospel of Mary, do not say the same thing as you, that you are God, or that God is within you. That might be a bit tough. I don’t know, it might not be tough for the free thinking(non-conditioned Christians) here.

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