Yes, the only atheists I respect are the existentialists because they realize that if there is no god then suicide is the only legitimate question.

The efforts on this page to try to patch over the absolute dispair and meaningless of life is ludicrous. You have only replaced what you laugh at with a faith that is even less legitimate.

As I’ve thought about life without God over the last year or so, I’m often scared by the fact that now, outside the faith, there are no second chances. I’m curious, because I’ve been reading some Sartre- how do you (any of you) deal with the responsibility that falls on humanity in a God-less universe? Without God, there’s no cosmic forgiveness, but even worse, there are no cosmic rules in the first place. Sartre says in choosing for ourselves, we choose what it means to be human. This is a responsibility that I don’t want to deny, but neither do I want to shoulder it.

I’m attracted to existentialism because it seems to be honest atheism. It’s up in arms over God’s non-involvement. I can’t stand smug atheism that wants to rub it in everyone’s face, like it’s all good news- “We can do whatever we want, no one’s going to yell at us!” It’s not good news – It’s terrifying. It transfers all responsibility to us- for who we are, what we do, and what becomes of us. And it means there really are no second chances. If you were born with no legs, too bad – you’ll never know what it feels like to run. If you made a bad decision and got pregnant at 16, tough luck – you’ll never get to relive your 20s. I guess I am still adjusting to the idea that God won’t somehow trump all bad circumstances with the “deeper purpose” card. It sucks.

Sartre says we are “condemned to be free.” I can’t bear it, but I think it is the most honest and brave response to life without God I have heard yet.

First, to clarify, the words you responded to above were mine, not Karen’s — she relayed my post from another forum.

“I find it incredibly interesting that the main problem that [Bryan] had was one in which [he] couldn’t make [his] beliefs align reasonably with reality and so [his] solution was to purposely hold a belief that couldn’t at all be aligned with or be affected by a non-alignment with reality.”

My sense of wonder is based precisely on knowledge we have gained about the nature of our universe and ourselves as human beings. This sense is based on my understanding of reality. I don’t understand why you say it is independent of it.

“The change isn’t one of finding a reasonable way to believe, but one of abandoning reason completely so that all [he] is left with is non-rational feeling or emotion.”

I see this quite differently. I think my view conforms to reason by accepting the things we are most certain are true, and remaining uncommitted concerning what we don’t know. I believe this is more rational than an approach that stakes out a priori claims in metaphysical territory (for example, based on ancient writings) and then defends those positions against all comers.

“I am also quite fascinated by the fact that [he] chose “wonder” to mean “well-being” and not chaos or barbarism or cruelty or non-well-being. Of course, [his] choice is entirely non-rational since it is not tied to anything but an emotional feeling that [he] arbitrarily decided to have instead of these others

I agree that my experience of a sense of wonder at thinking about the nature of our existence is not rational (though I’d describe it as extra-rational rather than irrational, since I don’t believe it is opposed to reason). Experiencing a sense of wonder involves emotional engagement, which I think involves extra-rational mechanisms within our brains. Do you see that differently? You seem to be saying that in developing one’s sense of meaning no extra-rational step should be admitted, and I don’t see how that is possible.

You say that my sense of wonder could have led me to choose chaos or barbarism rather than well-being. First, I’d say that I didn’t experience this as a conscious choice in which I came to a logical crossroad and decided to go one way rather than the other. I just followed a chain of thought (at least quasi-rational) from the point of an awareness of wonder to the conclusion that the sense of wonder is well-expressed by promoting well-being. I understand that this involves a value judgment, and there exists an infinite series of deconstructions and tortuous philosophical analyses that can drain all color from any statement of value. That, I believe, is a path directly to the heart of existentialist despair (and I say that as one who formerly walked that path).

“Good luck there, young dreamwalker. A path out of existential despair that is not.”

Well, this path has led me out of existentialist despair, your claim to the contrary notwithstanding. From what I remember of my mathematical background, I believe that’s called an existence proof.

I find it incredibly interesting that the main problem that Karen had was one in which she couldn’t make her beliefs align reasonably with reality and so her solution was to purposely hold a belief that couldn’t at all be aligned with or be affected by a non-alignment with reality. In other words, the problem has not gone away—it has only increased. The change isn’t one of finding a reasonable way to believe, but one of abandoning reason completely so that all she is left with is non-rational feeling or emotion. To make an analogy of it: it is like a prisoner who could not make herself believe she would ever be free of her prison, so she decided to pretend she was living in a fairyland instead. I know what that’s like because I started out life in the fairyland. But since I was smarter than I gave myself credit for, I was constantly plagued by the knowledge that my non-rational beliefs didn’t allow me to function and survive in the world. They actually drove me further from the world. I wasn’t crazy enough to actually have no knowledge that I was acting insane so the inconsistencies between my emotional-feeling-beliefs and nature almost destroyed me with existential despair.

I am also quite fascinated by the fact that she chose “wonder” to mean “well-being” and not chaos or barbarism or cruelty or non-well-being. Of course, her choice is entirely non-rational since it is not tied to anything but an emotional feeling that she arbitrarily decided to have instead of these others… But I’d be willing to bet that she will end up being just as disappointed as she was before when the rug was pulled out from under her…unless she actually allows herself to go insane… In either case, her prison hasn’t released her and she offers no escape to anyone else either. Some of my greatest idols who went down this path either went insane, killed themselves, or changed how they thought.

Good luck there, young dreamwalker. A path out of existential despair that is not.

Religion is a tool used bring guilt and fear into the masses, nothing more.

I went to 12 years of catholic school, paid for by my mother, and I thank her for it considering I got a far better education than I would have had I gone to one of Philadelphia’s public schools, but, jesus christ, religion is horse shit.

To paraphrase the great George Carlin, “God is an almighty, all-powerful being who can do anything…but he needs your money! If you go against god’s wishes you will burn in hell for all eternity! (But he LOVES you!)

Utter nonsense, I don’t understand how these people can look at themselves in the mirror every morning with a straight face.

…but I still believe in human kindness.