Does public prayer go against the Bible?
January 21, 2008
Let us try something on this topic this time, shall we?
(5)”And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. (6)But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (7)And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. (8)Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. - Matthew 6.5-8 NASB
Much of the religious talk going on from the presidential candidates has to do with the fact that Iowa, whose caucus was 3 January, and several other Bible-Belt states are a state full of evangelicals (that’s what the media is portraying, I guess). Many of these people are older and grew up in an era when schools, football games, and other major public venues and events had a time set aside for public prayer. Unfortunately, thanks to various lawsuits, people of Generations X and Y (the latter I am from) have grown up in a society that most of these events no longer have.
Both of my parents are very secular; my father went to public school while my mother attended parochial school up through the 8th grade. Both had prayer during homeroom before the school started for the day. (They also had to say the Pledge of Allegiance whether they wanted to or not. It was the law of the time.) Guess what? Both my parents wish schools had public prayer, or at least the more inclusive “moment of silence” to start the day off with.
Most of my friends, family, church members, and others around here (eastern Washington is much more conservative/traditional than the western half, remember) want that back, but because of the liberals out west, state law still no longer allows it. (Such is considered “violation of church and state”.)
Here’s what I do not get. How come what Jesus stated in the passage above - and I think I gave a good passage to read, not just a one-liner like many other bloggers do - states that His followers are to “go into your room, close the door and pray to [their] Father”? (Matthew 6.6 NASB) I mean, group prayer like dinners at public places I guess is okay — but do you need to speak so loud for the whole dining area to hear you? To the rest of us you appear something like the ancient Pharisees, as in you appear to be self-righteous.
Before I state the next thing, let me tell you I am very limited in my Bible knowledge, so I may be wrong. Tell me where public prayer is encouraged, I will look it up, and I will post an updated opinion, capisce?
People who are asking - even demanding for - public prayer are asking for something that perhaps is contrary to what their “Lord and Savior” tells them to do.
- Jersey
Entry Filed under: jersey. Tags: christianity, moment of silence, prayer, public prayer, religion, school prayer.
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1.
asymptosis | January 21, 2008 at 4:13 pm
I am inclined to agree. Of course, in Australia, we don’t have the same problem with public prayer that I believe the USA does. Still, the passage you gave isn’t the only one in which Jesus advises stealth in the conduct of one’s religion. “Let not the right hand know what the left doeth.”
Any Christian who is interested in following the example of Christ will not be drawn in to public demonstrations of “faith”, but will reserve their devotion for privacy.
2.
James | January 21, 2008 at 4:54 pm
Your word in God’s ear!!!
But this is just one more example of incoherences and contradictions in the Bible.
3.
LeoPardus | January 21, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I can’t think of any instances of public prayer in the NT. I can think of several instances where JC and/or his boys withdrew for private prayer.
By contrast, the OT has many instance of public prayer. Most of them occurred in Israel which was a theocratic state then.
4.
carriedthecross | January 21, 2008 at 5:22 pm
While I think Christians often go too far in their public prayers (e.g. I worked at a restaurant and often tables of religious people would pray. Many times when they did, it would be very showy so that others would notice. Their prayer was less about communication with their so-called God and more about witnessing to those around them.), I’m not sure that the Bible condemns a public expression of faith, including prayer.
Particularly the Old Testament prophets consistently speak of working things out in the public square. The objectives of faith (love, hope, compassion, etc.) should be realized in public.
I think that perhaps that particular passage, in context, is more a condemnation of Pharisaic-type prayer that was intended to make one look holy. Much of the context deals with intention rather than the action itself.
5.
the chaplain | January 21, 2008 at 5:58 pm
Leopardus’s point that Israel was a theocracy is a good one. In such a situation, public prayers at public events would not have been out of place. Since the USA is a pluralistic secular republic, not a theocracy, public prayers at public events or in public space, such as schools and stadiums, are not appropriate.
Carriedthecross’ contention that, in the restaurants where he worked, “Their prayer was less about communication with their so-called God and more about witnessing to those around them” may have some merit, though I’d say my experience was that such prayers are about both praising God and witnessing in equal measure. Such prayers may not be in the same category as the Pharisaical prayers condemned by Jesus, but they are inappropriate in a pluralistic society.
6.
LeoPardus | January 21, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Since the USA is a pluralistic secular republic, not a theocracy, public prayers at public events or in public space, such as schools and stadiums, are not appropriate.
I must differ with this. It is precisely in a pluralistic society that public prayers are appropriate. To shut them down would be to cease being a pluralistic society.
7.
artisticmisfit | January 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm
The question says it all. Does the Bible go against the Lord’s Supper? I think it does. I can’t even read the word Bible now without shuddering. I hate proof texting with a passion. It makes me want to vomit, spiritually speaking. I think all fundamentalists should be exterminated like the roaches they are. I’ll be the first to take the job.
8.
karen | January 21, 2008 at 6:41 pm
I must differ with this. It is precisely in a pluralistic society that public prayers are appropriate. To shut them down would be to cease being a pluralistic society.
Public prayers are perfectly fine.
It is government-sponsored prayers (such as in public schools) that are a problem.
Heck, if Christians really want to see what government-sponsored public prayers are like all they need to do is visit a Middle Eastern country where the call to prayer is broadcast in deafening form from all the mosques in the city.
Something tells me most Americans would find that rather obtrusive, and not appealing even if the call to prayer was singing the doxology five times a day (beginning at the crack of dawn!).
9.
Jersey | January 21, 2008 at 7:25 pm
I forgot to mention every Sunday for brunch and do a group prayer in front of everyone. I always feel self conscious, like besides maybe witnessing, I seriously think others around us see our group as self righteous.
While I highly respect others’ beliefs and what they want to do, I would rather not be forced to do it. Part of the whole ideal of tolerance is to not force others to do what is against their ideals and comforts.
10.
TheDeeZone | January 21, 2008 at 7:32 pm
artisticmisfit,
Does the Bible go against the Lord’s Supper?
See Matthew 26:26-39; Luke 22:14-23 and Mark 14:22-25
On Public Prayer in Matt 6:5-8, Jesus is speaking to the motives of the Pharisees. Their motive for praying publicly was to attract attention to themselves, not God. Prayer is to remove the focus or attention from oneself. With that said, sometimes a public prayer goes against the Bible, and sometimes it doesn’t. The example of praying in restaurant: it is possible to pray in a restaurant discretely and without attracting attention to oneself.
As a Christian and former public school teacher, I get so tired of hearing from Christians how putting prayer back into schools would solve all of the schools problems.
DH
11.
artisticmisfit | January 21, 2008 at 7:41 pm
DH, I was being sarcastic. Public prayer, ie The Lord’ Supper, comes before, came before, the Bible. Forgive me, I am feeling extremely caustic this afternoon, bad experience this morning. I am tired of being labeled as stupid, apparently, by a certain someone.
12.
TheNorEaster | January 22, 2008 at 1:42 am
I posted the same verses and discussed the same topic on my site on January 15th.
13.
David George | January 22, 2008 at 3:25 am
Prayer is an action… not just words…
14.
thinkdeep | January 22, 2008 at 8:14 am
What is prayer for? Do not pervert it for your own gain or vanity.
This is a direct example of how some Christians cherry pick the bible. But I cherry pick traffic laws some times… I try not to.
15.
dionysius | January 22, 2008 at 8:43 am
I think you are being overly literal in your interpretation of Jesus’ condemnation of the pharasie praying in the synagogue. His real point was not that one should not pray in public, rather He was condemning self righteous pride and pointing out that one should be humble in one’s prayers to God.
16.
orDover | January 22, 2008 at 12:55 pm
I think you are being overly literal in your interpretation of the deity of Jesus, but hey, that’s the fun of interpretation.
When I was in Christian school and we would be off campus for field trips and such, it was always a very big deal that we pray out loud before meals at restaurants. Our teachers said that we had to do it to witness to those around us, i.e. to let them know that we are good Christians and they are not. I was always horribly embarrassed by the show we put on, because I knew the motive behind it was to make us appear some how superior to those around us who didn’t pray, or didn’t pray out loud.
17.
TheDeeZone | January 22, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I’m am a Christian who prays before meals, even in resturants. However, it is always done softly. It bothers me to be near a large group that has just come from church and insists on being very loud including praying loudly. They are trying to make a show of being a Christian. Another interesting thing about the these groups they often tip poorly or just leave a tract. Oh, like that is being a good witness. I prefer to pray softly, be polite and leave a good tip. I think that is a better example of what a Christian should be.
18.
Brad | January 22, 2008 at 4:21 pm
As an evangelical bible-thumping (but not republican) millennial, I think the issue is so not worth fighting over. I’d rather my kids pray before school and get more out of their education anyway.
Your quote of the bible was dead on and contextual. The real issue Jesus was addressing was the motive behind those prayers (i.e. letting others know you are Christian, rather than praying to your Father in private). Since we are allowed to legally pray at home, in our own time, what the hell does it matter?
Leopardus also hit it on the head in Re: to the OT example:
“By contrast, the OT has many instance of public prayer. Most of them occurred in Israel which was a theocratic state then.”
And that’s why it isn’t as prolific in the NT, and why it SHOULDN’T be an issue in politics. There are way more important topics to argue about.
19.
choward | January 22, 2008 at 4:36 pm
FYI -
New Testament instances of approved public prayer (stated or implied); and by public I am taking the meaning of praying in the hearing of any audience (believers or otherwise…you’ll find both amongst these passages):
Matthew 14:19; Matthew 15:36; Matthew 26:26-27; Matthew 27:46; Mark 6:41 (same event as Matthew 14; also found in Luke 9 and John 6); Mark 14:22-23 (same event as Matthew 26; also found in Luke 22); Luke 3:21; Luke 18:13; Luke 23:34,46; John 11:41-42 (this one is especially pertinent to the discussion); John 17; Acts 1:24; Acts 2:42 keeping vs 44 in mind; Acts 4:24; Acts 8:15; Acts 13:3; and I think I will just stop there.
The most interesting thing is that Jesus, who made the statements about praying in secret, prayed publicly Himself. Did He knowingly directly contradict Himself? Or was He addressing praying to gain individual approval from men when He spoke of praying in a closet? Read Matthew 6:5 for the attitude of the public prayers He is addressing.
And, as far as Christian being only a religion to be practiced in secret…Jesus made it clear that His followers were supposed to show and tell the whole world about their convictions (Matthew 5:16; Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:8).
Now, I am sure that there are believers who pray in public just to be heard…or so people with think they are more pious or whatever. But many do not have that intention. They just want to take time to thank God, even if it is a public place. And if people notice, they only hope that God gets the glory, not themselves….at least this is the way I was raised, and the way I think Jesus intended it (again, see Matthew 5:16).
20.
choward | January 22, 2008 at 4:40 pm
One more thing (sorry for the double post)….Amen TheDeeZone:
“I prefer to pray softly, be polite and leave a good tip. I think that is a better example of what a Christian should be.”
21.
LeoPardus | January 22, 2008 at 5:11 pm
choward:
by public I am taking the meaning of praying in the hearing of any audience (believers or otherwise
Why are you taking it that way when it’s obvious that’s not what is meant in this thread?
Since you said your collection of verses included prayers in front of unbelievers, could you point out just those please?
22.
Terry K. Moore | January 22, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Yeah. . .what Choward said.
The “praying in a closet” is addressing an issue with the attitude when praying. Jesus frequently addressed the hypocrisies in “religion”. It had nothing to do with keeping our faith secret.
Does public prayer go against the Bible? No. Can public prayer, according to the Bible, be done incorrectly? Yes.
23.
TheDeeZone | January 22, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Well said Brad
24.
Brad | January 22, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Terry definitely summed it up nicely.
I think the issue can be resolved for both parties by allowing any and all faiths to gather for prayer/meditation/whatever as a group BEFORE class starts. If it is that important to th parents and their children, they’ll make the time.
25.
TheDeeZone | January 23, 2008 at 3:07 am
Brad,
That is still allowed as long as it is before school and student lead.
However, there is a movement to bring study of the Bible as literature back to schools. I wrote a blog about it recently.
Dh
26.
Brad | January 23, 2008 at 10:30 am
No kidding? Well, I guess I don’t see a problem with that if it is studied as literature in class… As an incredibly ancient text it has value in that area, but I can definitely see how that would be a touchy subject, and difficult to accomplish unbiasely.
27.
TheDeeZone | January 23, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Brad,
Check out the Bible Litracy Project. It seems that the funadmentalists don’t like that the text was reviewed and prepared by people of all religious backgrounds. I have a link to their site on my blog.
DH
28.
Brad | January 23, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Ahh…. Yeah…. you said “fundamentalists”…. that explains everything. For a group that actually has the word “fun” in their label, you’d think they’d be a little more easy-going…
Thanks for the info, I will do some reading into it for sure.
29.
TheDeeZone | January 23, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Brad,
Kind of like that old joke fundamentalist are neither fun or mental.
DH
30.
JK | January 24, 2008 at 3:22 am
I’ve never understood the praying out loud idea… if you’re witnessing, why do it with your eyes closed and pretend you’re talking to someone else? If you’re talking to God, can’t He hear you inside your head/heart?
My school prays before each class and takes requests, and when people pray for money I feel like sneaking over and leaving cash on their lap…
31.
Jersey | January 24, 2008 at 9:49 pm
I think anything run by the government should exclusively deal with the secular. As long as schools don’t tout or fund such, I don’t mind Bible studies at schools (or studies of other religious works for that matter). I think if schools should allow gay-straight stuff, they should allow bible studies.
32.
locomotivebreath1901 | January 25, 2008 at 4:02 pm
“Does public prayer go against the Bible?”
We’re not under ‘the law’. So in a word, “no.”
33.
Jersey | January 25, 2008 at 4:56 pm
He who does God’s Commandments is a Follower of Him. Despite what Paul said, Christians are supposed to follow the Word — and Law — of God. Especially if Christians think they are inheriting the faith of the Jews.
34.
talkwithme2 | February 13, 2008 at 2:14 pm
If all of you are de-conversioning, anti-religious, etc..why do you care? I woul dbe sacrastic and say “just pray about it” but that would not be Christ-like now would. Nor is placing meaning behind people’s intentions when they pray. Your “self” is showing. Furthermore, judging what others do is equally offensive, scripturally so it seems. Now then, there are indications throughout the NT, that there was prayer for others, we are called to pray for others, and prior to any event that Jesus attended prayer was entered into, He did live according to the OT, let’s not forget that he was Jewish…Blessings!