You addressed #42 to LeoPardus, and he has responded on his own behalf. But, because I am seeking evidence for God’s existence, I would also like to comment.

Moses performed many miracles in the sight of Egypt and did they repent & turn to the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob? No. In fact, the more they saw the more they rebelled and hated Him. Jesus did many signs and not all the Jews and gentiles believed.

I’m afraid that is stronger evidence that the miracles did not actually happen than it is evidence that anyone seeking evidence of God hates either God or God’s law.

You went on to say, First, you charged my God as being an “evil deity”. This kind of discourse is typical when speaking of the reality of evil. It’s as if you all read from the same script.

I can believe it. In my case, that script is the bible, which describes God as doing evil. Why are you surprised that people working from similar evidence are reaching similar conclusions?

Question all things.

It is better to light a candle than curse the darkness.

Fortunately I no longer feel that Bible verses must be obeyed perforce. So I can still speak to you.

Go ahead a read my bio (here’s the link: http://www.de-conversion.org/news.php?readmore=19) and what I’ve said about “Reasons I can no longer believe” and “The call for miracles”. Let me know when you’ve done that much.

Pro 23:9 Speak not in the hearing of a fool; For he will despise the wisdom of thy words.

Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments; But a prating fool shall fall.

Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred is of lying lips; And he that uttereth a slander is a fool.

Pro 10:23 It is as sport to a fool to do wickedness; And so is wisdom to a man of understanding.

Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes; But he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsel.

Pro 12:16 A fool’s vexation is presently known; But a prudent man concealeth shame.

Pro 13:16 Every prudent man worketh with knowledge; But a fool flaunteth his folly.

Pro 14:16 A wise man feareth, and departeth from evil; But the fool beareth himself insolently, and is confident.

Pro 15:5 A fool despiseth his father’s correction; But he that regardeth reproof getteth prudence.

Pro 17:7 Excellent speech becometh not a fool; Much less do lying lips a prince.

Pro 17:24 Wisdom is before the face of him that hath understanding; But the eyes of a fool are in the ends of the earth.

Pro 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, But only that his heart may reveal itself.

Pro 18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, And his mouth calleth for stripes.

Pro 18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, And his lips are the snare of his soul.

Pro 19:1 Better is the poor that walketh in his integrity Than he that is perverse in his lips and is a fool.

Pro 20:3 It is an honor for a man to keep aloof from strife; But every fool will be quarrelling.

From the Holy Scriptures.

-Rafael Garcia

Typical response we see around here from most christians. Everybody isn’t all nicey-lovely to you so you take on the poor, picked on, pitiful me face. Somehow I imagine that Paul, Peter, Stephen, and others, who got the trad kicked out of them for challenging people’s beliefs, would be less than impressed with your ability to handle “persecution”.

But then this is just what one should expect from a modern, easy living, have-it-my-way, cafeteria, christian.

Think boyo. You came onto a site that says up front that it’s for skeptical, de-converting, or former believers. From your perspective, that ought to read pretty close to “enemy territory”. And you walk in with long, cut/paste jobs, that are supposed to tell us what atheists/agnostics are. Then you proceed to tell me why I de-converted (without reading any of the biography or posts that would give you background on me). And you still refuse to invest any time reading up on who we are, why we are, what we are.

And now you want to pout and take your football and go home. And you toss of a few insults as a parting shot.

What a great, loving, courageous, grace-filled christian you’ve shown yourself to be. Is that what your good and loving god has done for you with his indwelling spirit?

There are some Christians who hang around here regularly. They ask questions, they seek to understand, they seek to be kind. THEN they may offer ideas or explanations. I may not agree with them, and I do challenge them on what they say. But I can respect them.

But you? All bluster, and opinion, and arrogance, and pouty, and whimpy? Pfah. Go play in your own yard little boy.

Scripture is the final Authority and not mans finite understanding.

Since this is a recurring theme, who do you believe has the authority to interpret the scripture? Do you believe it solely through the work of the Holy Ghost, or is it in accordance with correct interpretive method, or a specific reconciliation of both, and if so, how do we know whether what is interpreted is correct? Does scripture actually self-interpret itself? There are hundreds of denominations and millions of radical ideas that appear to compromise.

More pragmatically, do you believe that the writers of the various books of the Bible believed they were commissioned by God to write what would later become canonized?

I am sorry. I thought I was interacting with mature people in this blog. It is obvious that this is a “teen site”. I really do not have time for cheap wise cracks. If this is the fruit of your worldview, I can assure you all that it will not promise you any progess to know Greater Truth. As it is written:

“For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
(1 Corinthians 1:18-21 ASV)

-Rafael Garcia

It is highly unlikely that you would return to the faith after seeing God face to face. and so on…

Nice try but it’s bunk. I’ve heard this a lot. To save retyping what I’ve already typed, go read my article called “The call for miracles”. I address precisely the totally lame objection you just leveled.

God ordained evil, but is not the cause of it.

An all powerful being whose will cannot be resisted, ordained evil, but somehow did not cause, and is not responsible for it. Sheesh!

Man is the cause of evil

Wow! We humans are more powerful than we knew.

It was the perfect Law of God that made man, not God.

I would have though God made man. How did the Law make man?
Perhaps you meant to say the Law made man evil? In that case, you could argue with the late Saul of Tarsus instead of me.

God is perfect & sinless.

That’s a definition you choose to apply to the deity you’ve constructed. Looking at your deity, I must say that he fails of the definition of those terms.

His law offends those who hate Him.

I don’t hate the Easter bunny or any other non-existent being, nor their laws.
A more accurate statement might be, “The arrogant, self-assured people who claim to speak for Him, offend people.”

Man hates to be restrained by any absolute standard.

And it’s a rare thing to find an absolute standard. Certainly won’t find any in the Bible, since everyone so enjoys interpreting it as they please.

That is why you have fallen away, not because you lack proof

Ding! Ding! You win a free booger for choosing from the “List of convenient explanations”. It’s a great list of ways for a Christian to pigeonhole de-converts so that the Christian can get on with his neat, simple, little world.

We simply MUST get that list posted somewhere. Karen, you’re the keeper of it. Can you make it into an article?

Anyway Raphael: If you would take the trouble to actually read my bio and posts, (and those of others hereabouts) you might find that your ‘short and simple’, ‘one size fits all’ categories don’t work so well and universally as you’d like them to.

I find it hard to hate what I don’t even believe exists.