it reinforces their persecution complex

Excellent point – wish I had thought of that. People who berate and belittle tend to put most other folks on the defensive. It closes minds instead of opening them.

So, when you act like a strident — which is to say, angry, aggressive, militant, insulting — atheist, what do you do? Do you tend to confirm, or disconfirm their internal stereotype? In fact, I think this behavior just reinforces the us-vs-them circle that conservative religionists live inside of.

Exactly. And it reinforces their persecution complex, too, which is a powerful tool particularly for fundamentalists and End Times believers.

My nonChristian friends accepted me for who I was, religion and all, despite my being an annoying uptight little neurotic twerp. *That* made an impact.

Exactly!

Quester,

There is no over-arching “atheist agenda” to be productive toward, after all.

I agree – while I believe that there are areas we must be vocal and fight for – like teaching evolution and keeping religion (even in the disguise of ID) out of our schools, a civil attitude does more to change minds than berating someone for their beliefs.

Depends what goal they’re trying to produce. Are they trying to change minds, or vent emotion? There is no over-arching “atheist agenda” to be productive toward, after all.

“A question…do you find the stridency of many atheists to be counter-productive?”

A thousand times yes. I think it is *dramatically* counter-productive and probably does far more damage than had they just ignored religion altogether.

Evangelical believers already have a whole slew of internal caricatures about nonbelievers — in a nutshell, that we are angry, spiteful, prideful people who hate all that is true and good. Thats what it means to be a sinner. In particular, we hate “true” Christians because they are the Light and remind us of our sin and guilt before God.

So, when you act like a strident — which is to say, angry, aggressive, militant, insulting — atheist, what do you do? Do you tend to confirm, or disconfirm their internal stereotype? In fact, I think this behavior just reinforces the us-vs-them circle that conservative religionists live inside of.

As I said in #5, the only thing that got through to me was having direct, behavioral experience with nonbelievers. My nonChristian friends accepted me for who I was, religion and all, despite my being an annoying uptight little neurotic twerp. *That* made an impact. *That* wasnt supposed to happen. Had, however, they ridiculed me for my beliefs, it would only have served to confirm my expectations, and they would not have stayed my friends, and that circle would be unbroken.

And not just rationality – discourse itself. After all, when someone accuses you of being blatantly irrational, how does that affect you? Does it make you think, “holy cow, you’re right! I *am* being just stupidly irrational! Thanks for pointing it out!” Or does it just make you defensive?

We humans like to see ourselves as reasonable and competent. When you challenge a set of beliefs in a way that makes people feel irrational and stupid, you will invariably just engage their defenses. Even if they might otherwise have been convinced they were mistaken, now it has become about maintaining self-esteem and self-image. I suspect this is half the motivation behind most apologetics.

“However, while I was immersed in Christianity, I was able to willfully ignore that contradiction or explain away that dichotomy in my head. ”

Me too. And FYI, sociologists would call this the presence of a “plausibility structure.”

A question…do you find the stridency of many atheists to be counter-productive? I find myself somewhat put off by this and think the attitude of say, Richard Muse, to be far more profitable. In my opinion, the caustic attitude displayed by many make changing peoples minds about rational thinking much more difficult. As all here probably know, critical self examination can be very difficult and being told how stupid you are doesn’t seem very helpful to me. I welcome others opinion here…