Comments on: Why I still study the Bible http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/ Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians...... Thu, 22 May 2008 20:05:03 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU By: Hugo http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-19174 Hugo Sun, 11 May 2008 14:25:25 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-19174 Let's see if there's any chance of getting a response this late in the game: I want to read some Joseph Campbell. Which of his books would you recommend I start with? Let’s see if there’s any chance of getting a response this late in the game:

I want to read some Joseph Campbell. Which of his books would you recommend I start with?

]]> By: Cthulhu http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18659 Cthulhu Fri, 18 Apr 2008 20:10:03 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18659 HeIsSailing/Gary, Joseph Campbell was central to my de-conversion. The world lost a marvelous intellect when he passed away. One thing I see here is that almost all of the contributors to this site have managed to find transcendence without god...a recurring theme in his books. And I still read the bible on occasion...there are still many things you can glean from it without regarding it as 'Holy Writ'. HeIsSailing/Gary,

Joseph Campbell was central to my de-conversion. The world lost a marvelous intellect when he passed away. One thing I see here is that almost all of the contributors to this site have managed to find transcendence without god…a recurring theme in his books. And I still read the bible on occasion…there are still many things you can glean from it without regarding it as ‘Holy Writ’.

]]> By: airtightnoodle http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18640 airtightnoodle Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:12:41 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18640 I'm sure the standard reply would go something like this... Don't forget that we are all born sinful. Just because a Christian sins doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't also fruitful and have a living faith. In any case...I do think many parts of Christianity ARE in a sorry state...but then again, I'll admit I always have been a "glass half-empty" sort of person. :) I’m sure the standard reply would go something like this…

Don’t forget that we are all born sinful. Just because a Christian sins doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t also fruitful and have a living faith.

In any case…I do think many parts of Christianity ARE in a sorry state…but then again, I’ll admit I always have been a “glass half-empty” sort of person. :)

]]> By: Gary http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18639 Gary Thu, 17 Apr 2008 23:08:37 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18639 airtightnoodle said: <cite>In my opinion, James is simply talking about people who claim to be Christian but aren’t producing any “fruit”.</cite> I wonder, wouldn't this eliminate most Christians? At the very least, I wouldn't exactly call the Christians I've known over the years 'fruity', by the standards set by James. As I understand it, his 'works' come down to two essential things - social justice (care for the widows and orphans), and moral purity (keep oneself from being polluted by the world). If those are to be the hallmark of Christianity, then it certainly is in a sorry state. airtightnoodle said: In my opinion, James is simply talking about people who claim to be Christian but aren’t producing any “fruit”.

I wonder, wouldn’t this eliminate most Christians? At the very least, I wouldn’t exactly call the Christians I’ve known over the years ‘fruity’, by the standards set by James. As I understand it, his ‘works’ come down to two essential things - social justice (care for the widows and orphans), and moral purity (keep oneself from being polluted by the world). If those are to be the hallmark of Christianity, then it certainly is in a sorry state.

]]> By: airtightnoodle http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18637 airtightnoodle Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:57:38 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18637 Don't ignore the context of the James passage. Notice it starts out with James using the example of someone who SAYS he has faith. He then gives examples of true and false faiths. James is simply comparing two kinds of faiths: true faith, which will naturally lead to good works, and faith without works, which is dead (or false). It is possible for one to believe, or have faith in God, and yet their faith be useless. Notice James' reference to demons. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." In my opinion, James is simply talking about people who claim to be Christian but aren't producing any "fruit". Don’t ignore the context of the James passage. Notice it starts out with James using the example of someone who SAYS he has faith. He then gives examples of true and false faiths. James is simply comparing two kinds of faiths: true faith, which will naturally lead to good works, and faith without works, which is dead (or false).

It is possible for one to believe, or have faith in God, and yet their faith be useless. Notice James’ reference to demons. “You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that–and shudder.”

In my opinion, James is simply talking about people who claim to be Christian but aren’t producing any “fruit”.

]]> By: LeoPardus http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18636 LeoPardus Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:24:07 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18636 <i>1) I want to do what most Christians never do - read and understand their own basis for faith. All of it.</i> At a Bible study class I was attending years ago, one Sunday the instructor asked, "How many of you have read the Bible all the way through at least once?" He raised his hand; my wife and I did; the wife of the assistant pastor did. That was all. Four people in a class of over 20. All were adults. All had been believers for at least 10 years (many for a lifetime). And this was in a "Bible-based, Bible-believing" fundy church. 1) I want to do what most Christians never do - read and understand their own basis for faith. All of it.

At a Bible study class I was attending years ago, one Sunday the instructor asked, “How many of you have read the Bible all the way through at least once?” He raised his hand; my wife and I did; the wife of the assistant pastor did. That was all. Four people in a class of over 20. All were adults. All had been believers for at least 10 years (many for a lifetime). And this was in a “Bible-based, Bible-believing” fundy church.

]]> By: Gary http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18634 Gary Thu, 17 Apr 2008 22:04:49 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18634 HeIsSailing, that is an impressively open position you are holding to the Bible, which very much resonates with me. As for Joseph Campbell, after hearing numerous references to him both here and elsewhere, I started watching The Power of Myth DVD, and finding it a breath of fresh air, totally fitting where I am at right now. HeIsSailing, that is an impressively open position you are holding to the Bible, which very much resonates with me. As for Joseph Campbell, after hearing numerous references to him both here and elsewhere, I started watching The Power of Myth DVD, and finding it a breath of fresh air, totally fitting where I am at right now.

]]> By: HeIsSailing http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18610 HeIsSailing Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:04:06 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18610 Gary asks: "Just as an aside, I wonder if any of us here went through this very phase of biblical inquiry that I am describing, and if so what was your inevitable conclusion?" Thanks for asking, Gary. I am no longer a Christian, and I wanted to start moving away from reading apolgetic and critical stuff. I really wanted to, but I decided to read the bible again this summer. I picked up my wife's catholic study bible and started reading - I intend to read 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books and 18 Apocryphal books, not necessarly in order. I have quite a bit finished - I am wrapping up Isaiah later today. It is really interesting to read when you don't have to believe. I told the asst pastor of my old church, and member of my home bible study that I intended to read it again. His reaction? He said, "Why do you want to read the bible if you are not going to believe? It is utterly stupid! Don't read it if you are going to trivialize it. It is blasphemous to read it as 'literature'" How dare he!! The bible must belong only to him and his fellow Fundies!! I am so sick of that exclusivity that rejects us unwashed heathen even *touching* his precious holy book!! GAG!!! Here are my reasons for re-reading the Bible: 1) I want to do what most Christians never do - read and understand their own basis for faith. All of it. 2) I am genuinely open to accepting any part of the Faith that I may have missed - is there any particular reason that I missed that would make me think this particular book is divinely inspired? 3) I am interested to read all the favorite verses/stories/prophecies/promises, etc in thier proper context. 4) Some of it is genuinely great reading - I loved 1, 2 Samuel..!! 1 Chronicles in contrast was pretty dry, but I am doing my best to understand the culture and climate that would produce such works. 5) The *main* reason: I picked up two books that I think have really influenced my post-Christian thinking. "The Masks of God", by Joseph Campbell and "Man and his Symbols", cy Carl Jung. I now understand the power of mythology, why I am drawn to it, why humanity resonates so deeply with it. The bible is filled to the brim with such symbols - the vengeful god who will protect us, who sustains us, who ultimately redeems us. I have not only read the Bible, but am halfway through the Quran, finished off Homer, and also a couple of books on the mythologies of the Philippine Islands. To me it is all the same - mankind trying to reach to the heavens, to understand who we are and where we come from, and trying to resonate with the unknowable - the divine. Reading the bible with that mindset is so far a very rewarding experience. It reflects, ultimately, where we all came from, and how humanity used to try to discern truth. Gary asks:
“Just as an aside, I wonder if any of us here went through this very phase of biblical inquiry that I am describing, and if so what was your inevitable conclusion?”

Thanks for asking, Gary. I am no longer a Christian, and I wanted to start moving away from reading apolgetic and critical stuff. I really wanted to, but I decided to read the bible again this summer. I picked up my wife’s catholic study bible and started reading - I intend to read 39 Old Testament books, 27 New Testament books and 18 Apocryphal books, not necessarly in order. I have quite a bit finished - I am wrapping up Isaiah later today.

It is really interesting to read when you don’t have to believe. I told the asst pastor of my old church, and member of my home bible study that I intended to read it again. His reaction? He said, “Why do you want to read the bible if you are not going to believe? It is utterly stupid! Don’t read it if you are going to trivialize it. It is blasphemous to read it as ‘literature’”

How dare he!! The bible must belong only to him and his fellow Fundies!! I am so sick of that exclusivity that rejects us unwashed heathen even *touching* his precious holy book!! GAG!!!

Here are my reasons for re-reading the Bible:

1) I want to do what most Christians never do - read and understand their own basis for faith. All of it.

2) I am genuinely open to accepting any part of the Faith that I may have missed - is there any particular reason that I missed that would make me think this particular book is divinely inspired?

3) I am interested to read all the favorite verses/stories/prophecies/promises, etc in thier proper context.

4) Some of it is genuinely great reading - I loved 1, 2 Samuel..!! 1 Chronicles in contrast was pretty dry, but I am doing my best to understand the culture and climate that would produce such works.

5) The *main* reason: I picked up two books that I think have really influenced my post-Christian thinking. “The Masks of God”, by Joseph Campbell and “Man and his Symbols”, cy Carl Jung. I now understand the power of mythology, why I am drawn to it, why humanity resonates so deeply with it. The bible is filled to the brim with such symbols - the vengeful god who will protect us, who sustains us, who ultimately redeems us. I have not only read the Bible, but am halfway through the Quran, finished off Homer, and also a couple of books on the mythologies of the Philippine Islands. To me it is all the same - mankind trying to reach to the heavens, to understand who we are and where we come from, and trying to resonate with the unknowable - the divine. Reading the bible with that mindset is so far a very rewarding experience. It reflects, ultimately, where we all came from, and how humanity used to try to discern truth.

]]> By: Gary http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18594 Gary Wed, 16 Apr 2008 22:16:38 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18594 I wouldn't go so far as to say that the Bible contains false and corrupted teachings. It's imperfect precisely because it's the work of many ancient authors each with their own unique perspectives. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that the Bible contains false and corrupted teachings. It’s imperfect precisely because it’s the work of many ancient authors each with their own unique perspectives.

]]> By: Anonymous http://de-conversion.com/2008/04/15/why-i-still-study-the-bible/#comment-18584 Anonymous Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:38:47 +0000 http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=809#comment-18584 I wonder, if God is within you, how can God punish you? Wouldn't he punish himself? Before any christian tells me that we are separate from god, answer this: If God breathed life into man, what was that breath made of? It certainly wasn't "air." What I'm saying is we don't need anything to go to heaven. How can there be a hell, especially when there is so much hell here on Earth? That's like God spitting in your face when you are already beaten to a pulp. That kind of God is false, perpetuated by the false and corrupted teachings of the Bible. I wonder, if God is within you, how can God punish you? Wouldn’t he punish himself? Before any christian tells me that we are separate from god, answer this: If God breathed life into man, what was that breath made of? It certainly wasn’t “air.” What I’m saying is we don’t need anything to go to heaven. How can there be a hell, especially when there is so much hell here on Earth? That’s like God spitting in your face when you are already beaten to a pulp. That kind of God is false, perpetuated by the false and corrupted teachings of the Bible.

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