de-conversion

49 Comments Add your own

• 1. The de-Convert  |  June 27, 2008 at 11:48 pm

  The 61% of Southern Baptists was surprising.

• 2. LeoPardus  |  June 27, 2008 at 11:51 pm

  I noted this survey the other day and was going to comment on it. I suggest that this link is the best place to start: http://religions.pewforum.org/reports That gets you right to the full report and the summary report.

  The findings are quite interesting in several areas.

• 3. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:23 am

  It seems that there’s more hope for humanity than I thought. It’s comforting to see that people realize that the doctrines of ancient people are so often brutally unfair to anyone except those in a specific, inclusive group. However, with all of these Christians believing that there are multiple ways to salvation, feeling that women are equal to men and should even be able to preach and ask questions in church, as well as some who are accepting of homosexuals, how can they still call themselves Christians? They’ve moved quite a bit away from the central doctrines, and are approaching humanism (that many of them even despise).

  Interesting.

• 4. The de-Convert  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:44 am

  It’s comforting to see that people realize that the doctrines of ancient people are so often brutally unfair to anyone except those in a specific, inclusive group.

  I was thinking the other day how prior to 2,000 years ago, if you were not born in the middle east into the Jewish race, and learn about killing cows, goats, etc. to atone for your sins, there was no hope for your salvation. In other words, a very very very very small percentage of humans were “chosen” and the rest damned!!!! Of course, it’s interesting to note that those same people, once “chosen”, are now mostly damned because now there’s a new “chosen” people – Christians.

  Glad to see Christians are waking up to how ridiculous that belief is. Good start

• 5. Blog Jumper  |  June 28, 2008 at 8:54 am

  This isn’t a surprise to anyone active in some of the religious communities mentioned in the survey. Could it be that American Christians are more tolerant than many non-religious people give them credit for?

  Oh, and Obi said “…feeling that women are equal to men and should even be able to preach and ask questions in church, as well as some who are accepting of homosexuals, how can they still call themselves Christians? They’ve moved quite a bit away from the central doctrines…”

  Central doctrines? The “Nicene Creed” and/or the “Apostles’ Creed” are the central doctrines of Christianity. Neither one of those doctrines mentions equality or sexual preference.

• 6. Dee  |  June 28, 2008 at 9:47 am

  I find the number of SBC very surprising. Of course if you ask 5 Southern Baptist a question you will get 7 opinions, 3 committees will be formed to answer the question and the group will split at least once.

  BTW, I’m not in the 61% or 70%.

• 7. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 10:45 am

  Blog Jumper –

  Please, don’t be that way. You know what I mean, mate. I’m sure that in your church your pastor doesn’t read the Nicene and Apostle’s Creed endlessly as a source of guidelines on how you should live your life. You probably use many of Paul’s epistles, which include a large amount of the bigotry that I was talking about (in fact, all of it).

• 8. edwinhere  |  June 28, 2008 at 10:59 am

  “I believe there are infinite paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour.” — Stephen Colbert

• 9. The Apostate  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:01 pm

  Weird, the site keeps signing me off.
  Anyway, I checked out that link Leopardus provided and I didn’t get too far before I noticed that 21% of atheists believe in a god of some sort, including the 6% who believe in a personal god. Something tells me the questions were not so clear.

• 10. Mike  |  June 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

  Dee and Edwinhere made me laugh. TA, you raise a very valid point regarding all statistical observations (which Justin drew attention to in his previous post). This is why one of my favorite all time quotes is from Mark Twain “There’s lies, damn lies and statistics, each getting progressively worse.”

• 11. Dee  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:25 pm

  About the status: Amon Carter one time owner of the Ft Worth Star-Telegram allegedly said anything printed in the Morning News is a d__ lie. Of course being the owner of the Morning News major competitor don’t know how reliable Carter’s statement was either.

• 12. Dan  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:27 pm

  Did you read that 1 out of 5 atheists still believe in God? I have something about it at my new blog called Debunking Atheists

• 13. Jim J  |  June 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm

  The question is fundamentally flawed. In the discussion of ways to eternal life, there is only one way, according to Christianity, but it is NOT Christianity OR any religion. It is Christ Himself. According to His own words there is no way around him.

  The question, “Do you believe that many religions can lead to eternal life?” is a muddled question, which leads to a muddled answer. The correct biblical answer is maybe. The poll of atheists likely asked a muddled question, leading to an obvious flawed result that one in 5 atheists believe in some sort of God.

  In short, the joke is on the Pew Forum.

• 14. panthophany  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:03 pm

  Following up on Jim J’s comment, I think the Pew Forum did an excellent job with a very difficult topic. The Pew Forum notes the surprising nature of many of the responses, and have promised further and more detailed surveys to try to suss out what Americans are actually saying.

  As in science, just because your first experiment had insufficient precision to resolve every question doesn’t mean you didn’t learn a lot from it. You take what you learned and you perform more experiments, which will then raise new questions. The Pew Forum seems to be taking exactly this scientific approach and I appreciate their efforts.

• 15. Mike  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  Did you know 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

• 16. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  Dan,

  I will use the Christians favorite line…

  They were NEVER atheists in the first place

  Sounds like a sloppy poll to me.

• 17. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 3:44 pm

  I’d recommend Dan’s blog if anyone wants a nice, hearty laugh. Life is too short to not pass up any opportunities at that.

• 18. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 4:22 pm

  Obi,

  I didn’t laugh – I was seriously crerped out. Especially reading him gloat over another human’s life (George Carlin). Just another example of what I am NOT a Christian. I think I threw up in my mouth…

• 19. Cthulhu  |  June 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm

  Sorry creeped out…

• 20. Obi  |  June 28, 2008 at 5:01 pm

  Indeed, the George Carlin part was rather chilling. I’ve been watching all of his HBO specials that I downloaded months ago but never got around to viewing, save for the most recent ones. It’s a shame that what sparked me to do so was his rather untimely death. The man was a genius, and his takes on social issues such as religion were ususally quite razor sharp and on point.

  I feel that many Christians hold atheists in contempt and as some sort of danger and thing to be hated because seeing people stop believing scares them into considering the fact that their beliefs are indeed unfounded and quite false…

• 21. orDover  |  June 29, 2008 at 3:08 pm

  The results of this poll surprise me so much and goes against everything I experienced as a Christian. At the school I went to we were reminded over and over again that ours was the only true religion. All others were false. Period. I spent my entire life among moderate to slightly Evangelical Christians, and I never once heard anyone say that they though other religions could lead to eternal life. They always asserted that they were the only ones that knew the secrets of how to get to the exclusive Heaven Club. In fact, their supreme knowledge over other’s was a source of much pride and gloating. “We know the ONLY way.”

• 22. LeoPardus  |  June 29, 2008 at 3:12 pm

  orDover:

  One reason for people de-converting is exposure to other religions and other mindsets. You’re already a de-con, but this survey gives you an exposure to a wider set of minds than your old experience.

  I admit that I too was surprised at how liberal Evangelicals, Baptists, Orthodox, etc were in this poll.

• 23. pantheophany  |  June 29, 2008 at 6:10 pm

  Thankfully the Pew Forum tells us exactly how they presented the questions. If only every survey that were touted around in the media were so thorough.

  My religion is the one, true faith leading to eternal life, OR: many religions can lead to eternal life.

  I believe you would find many (but certainly not all) Baptists who, for instance, might accept that Methodist faith might lead to eternal life, and would consider Methodists “a different religion.” I have often heard Evangelicals say things like “it’s not your religion that matters, it’s whether you’ve accepted Christ,” and while to outsiders this sounds like it must be a joke, within Evangelicalism it is quite sensible. So this result should not be shocking, and as with much of this survey, more investigation is needed to suss out exactly what it means.

  As the Pew Forum notes, these results might mean that Americans are a religiously tolerant bunch, or they might mean we’re a religiously ignorant bunch. My personal experience is both. Most people seem ignorant of what their religion actually says, and that gives them the freedom to entertain their natural tolerance. Bigotry is most common when it is enflamed by loud rhetoric. Tolerance comes when it is quiet and we can hear the truth within.

  I hope Pew continues this work so we can understand better. Of course as every researcher knows, successful research always concludes that more research is needed, ideally employing the original researcher.

• 24. Derick  |  January 15, 2009 at 11:42 pm

  Jesus said He is the truth and no one comes to the Father except through him.
  Therefore in my opinion, we need to be born again and accept Jesus as our Personal saviour in order to enter Kingdom of God

• 25. BigHouse  |  January 16, 2009 at 9:37 am

  Jesus said He is the truth and no one comes to the Father except through him.

  First if all, that’s quite a leap from Jesus’ supposed quote and your intrepretation of what is ‘needed’.

  Second, you obviously believe in at least some of the Bible, how do you rectify the other verses that would contradict your conclusion? Verses saying wotks are required to make it to heaven, for instance?

• 26. LeoPardus  |  January 16, 2009 at 1:24 pm

  Derick:

  You’ve got a huge amount of enthymemic clauses between your first and second sentence. Many of them aren’t even from the Bible, but rather from the pulpit.

• 27. Sipho  |  February 4, 2009 at 7:57 am

  I believe that only the faith that come after u receive Jesus Christ as the saviour & king in your life that can lead you to eternal life.Accordingly to John 5:24 says that who ever believe in the Son have an eternal life and he pass away from the death & also the book of James state it clear that even the demons have a believe and trambling in Jesus Christ but unfortunately they don’t save Him but they save the King of demons who is Satan. The faith that can change the world is only the faith dat u got 2 the book of Rom. 10:9&10 that bring salvation through Christ 2 the life of somebody & dat make a difference 2 someone life who receive christ in his or her life because each an every new day goes by power of the Holly Spirit accordingly Joh.1:12 & the is no longer live himself or herself dat person accordingly to Gal.2:20 but is Christ who is in charge in his or her life. May God increase u in making the Kingdom of God known over the whole world. Amen.

• 28. orDover  |  February 4, 2009 at 1:11 pm

  Is English your first language?

• 29. LeoPardus  |  February 4, 2009 at 1:33 pm

  Uhmmm… I don’t think he’s using English.

• 30. Derek  |  February 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm

  I’d like to know the percentages who don’t believe in an afterlife at all. Seems that believing in an afterlife is a prerequisite to answering this question in the affirmative.

• 31. SnugglyBuffalo  |  February 4, 2009 at 2:48 pm

  I think it’s just really sloppy English…

  It’s things like this that make me weep for our education system.

• 32. GrandGizmo  |  March 17, 2009 at 2:03 am

  You can’t really call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe Jesus the Savior is the only way. I am shocked at 70% believe that Jesus is not the only way. This truly shows you how few Christians there actually are who call themselves Christians in the first place. It’s frightening.

• 33. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 17, 2009 at 10:57 am

  Or it’s a good thing, depending on who you talk to…

• 34. Laura  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:17 pm

  JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY!! You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe He is the only way. Sad, very sad!

• 35. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:22 pm

  Yep, Laura. That’s right. You’re exactly right. You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t believe Jesus is the only way. You got that right! I was stunned!

• 36. BigHouse  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:34 pm

  (Enjoying the Christian “talk-amongst-themselves” conversation going on in this thread

• 37. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:41 pm

  There’s only ONE who died for the sins of the world! There’s only ONE who paid the penalty and the price for all our sins. There’s only one who was nailed to the cross and rose from the grave in three days. There’s only ONE who loved mankind enough to do it. There’s only ONE who overcame Satan in the desert though He be tempted beyond measure. There’s only ONE who left the Mount of Olives and ascended to the right hand of the POWER GOD. His name was Jesus Christ the Son of God!

• 38. GrandGizmo  |  May 4, 2009 at 5:45 pm

  Check it out people. If you don’t have JESUS as your personal Lord and Savior, you shall no wise enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Instead, you’ll be barbecue.

• 39. paleale  |  May 4, 2009 at 6:53 pm

  Man, I’ve missed that. It’s been too long since I’ve heard some good old fashioned fundamentalist rhetoric straight from a fundamentalist. Thanks guys!

• 40. northportphoneguy  |  May 4, 2009 at 7:06 pm

  BigHouse,

  I also have enjoyed the Christian cross-talk, as I always do. It continually reminds me how delusional I was and helps to keep me grounded in reality. Now I’m enjoying a guilt-free, god-free life after I escaped the lifelong indoctrination.

• 41. BigHouse  |  May 5, 2009 at 9:10 am

  Talk about taking the edge off of hell by calling it “barbecue”. My mouth ia watering..

• 42. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 9:50 am

  GrandGizmo, did you say Barbecue, I’m one hungry son of a Zealot. What an all powerful and all knowing God, He creates the human race who didn’t ask to be created and more than half of them is going to end up attending an eternal barbecue, this makes a “Hell” of a whole lot of sense doesn’t it…and why does it make a lot of sense? because our mind is not the mind of God. Dude please, you zealots need to take an hour out of your day and just think about your faith and critically question all its doctrines. By the way I’ll start praying to Horus for my salvation, that’s Jesus’s original name before he ended up in Rome.

• 43. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 11:02 am

  Dear “Not A Church Goer anymore,”

  Horus was not Jesus. There is absolutely no proof of this fact you speak of. You need to do more research. This is absolutely not true. That whole idea is based on the movie Zeitgeist, an old scholar named Gerald Massey and books by Acharya S. All of these things you say are totally coming from them. As for Acharya (D. Murdoch), she was the laughing stock of Rutdger’s University, because none of her stated facts were supportable, especially the one about Jesus being like Horus and the Sun of God being the Son of God. This is just her drawing such a comparison based on Gerald Massey’s research. As for Horus ending up in Rome, there is no proof Horus every visited Rome. And, by the dating, I don’t believe he took a vacation there at the time of Jesus. As for calling me a “zealot,” I don’t mind. I’m just giving you the facts. Without Jesus, you’ll either be destroyed by God’s fiery wrath or you will either spend an eternity in hell. I don’t know which one is true, but I wouldn’t wish either one of them on my own worse enemy. Jesus loved you and died for your sins. I don’t mean to be so non-loving, but it’s true. Without Jesus, no man shall enter the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus loved us enough to pay the penalty for all our sins. Don’t reject Him. You will burn or be destroyed. After all, if God’s going to nail His Son Jesus Christ to a cross for our sins, what mercy is left? He is risen! He loves you! It is a fact! He died for your sins. Hope you call on Him to be your Lord and Savior, because all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God. Peace.

• 44. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 11:22 am

  Not A Church Goer anymore,

  I didn’t mean to be so harsh in what I said. The bottom line is that Jesus loves you, died for your sins and paid the penalty for you. Horus didn’t. Buddah didn’t. Krishna didn’t. Only Jesus did.

  ‘For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved” John 3:16-17.

• 45. ArchangelChuck  |  May 5, 2009 at 1:34 pm

  The mere fact that not everybody accepts Christianity — that sites like de-conversion even exist –says to me that the issue of religion is not as simple as GrandGizmo would like it to be.

  If the Christianity that GrandGizmo touts is the… heh, “one true religion,” then why does it need salesmen? Why does it require the threat of eternal punishment to boost sales? Why do its executives systematically indoctrinate and abuse children to ensure customer loyalty?

  These are simple questions that only require a degree of honesty to answer.

• 46. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:29 pm

  GrandGizmo, I believe you’re the one who needs to do the research and lots of it outside the confounds of the christian bible! Christian religions/traditions/practices can be traced back to earlier religions (paganism), i.e. Egypt. Horus was born of a Virgin, performered miricles, died and risen as well as other babylonian, egyptian and mesopotamian dieties created before Joshua(Jesus’s actual name according to original Greek Text). Yeah I studied the bible, in both Greek, Arameric and Hebrew, being I was a Minister of the Good News for quite sometime…yeah I once had your Zeal, but as I slowy cut the fat from the meat I saw things in its true nature and disturbing is an understatement, many disturbing things surfaced in ref to Christianity, and that’s what led me to seek truth in the matter. I research heavily the history of the church, how the bible canons came to be etc, and how other “christian text came to not be canon”. You know that the numbers in the bible has meaning right?? the 12 deciples, 12 tribes of Isreal, on the 3rd day he rose from the dead etc…do some research on that and see what you come up with…What does Joshua say about the end of ages in the book of Matthew (True Arthur unknown, but don’t take my word for it do the research! maybe you’ll find something in the *horoscope* to help you out) The Bible says that God’s not the arthur of confusion, yet christianity is a very divisive and confused religion. What is salvation and how do you achieve it?? You’ll get 2 totally different answers if I ask a catholic and a baptist the same question. In either case, you’re programed and will not look outside of the bible (Written by man with an agenda); do some unbiased research on King James, research back to 1611 England). Do some research on the Wise Men who was guided by the star, by the way who were the wise men (Magi! what’s that??) and what was the significants of the star?? You ever heard of an Ankh? was that constantines vision?? Again I ask, why would God Create a race, only to send more than half of them to the pits of Hell? Dantes inferno is a powerful book, maybe someone can use that to control the masses thru fear!! Why is blood required for atonement??why do an animal or a human need to be sacraficed?? maybe we should ask the Aztecs or Mayan! GrandGizmo, sometimes you need to get out of your comfort zone to see the true nature of things, its called free thinking, by the way, why would God give us this brain, only for us not to use it???

• 47. GrandGizmo  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:34 pm

  It wasn’t 12 disciples, Not A Church Goer Anymore. It was twelve apostles. Every Christian is a disciple. Also, even the December 25th thing from Acharya holds no water. No where in the Bible is Christmas (the Lord’s birthday) dated December 25th. Christmas is a man made religion.

  Also, you have no proof that Jesus (Iesus) was named Joshua. Just because the J was an I means nothing. It’s same Jesus then as it is now. God created man with free will just like he did the angels. We can choose good or we can choose evil. It is up to us. We make our decision. We either choose eternal life or eternal death. Furthermore, hell may not be eternal. It may be that the lost are destroyed and separated from God forever. In fact, the Bible talks about ashes, etc… Either way, it’s a horrible thing to be separated from God, because God is love. Also, Jesus died for our sins, and He’s the only way to salvation. I hope you will one day realize this is true.

• 48. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 2:44 pm

  One more thing GrandGizmo. Greece been around for a very long time, way before Christianity, the New testament of the bible is translated from Greek!!research that also, you’ll find that the Apostle Paul who most likely didn’t right any of his epistles was greatly influenced by the roman/greek Culture…another simple thing you can research without going all out is the word Hell, if you’re a student of the “word of God” you should have a concordance handy to help you out…yeah hell in the bible is not your Dante’s inferno hell, but don’t take my word for it, do the research. To gain control of the masses, just give them something to believe in and tell them to never question it. (NACGA)

• 49. Not a Church Goer anymore  |  May 5, 2009 at 3:01 pm

  Look GrandGizmo, you’re the one who talks about a barbecue, so obvioulsy you believe in the fire and brimestone thing and the 12 apostle title came later after the resurrection, while Joshua walked the Earth they were disciples, both words can be used interchangably based on whatever bible translation you use…(you really need to study to show yourself approved). As far as proof about Jesus’s name, dude its in the traslation, what more proof do you need, just because I’m not your Pastor preaching to you, doesn’t mean you can’t look that up yourself. GrandGizmo you really need to study your word if you’re going to get into the apolegetics game. Based on what you said about December 25th (Winter Solces, Pagan orgins)why do Christians celebrate it if its not in the bible? why do Christians celebrate it if its man made?…by the way Christmas is not a man made relgion; its a holiday celebrated within a man made religion! A peice of scripture: 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear; because fear hath torment.”
  It seems to me that a lot of Christians worship because they fear hell, this total contradicts 1 John 4:18…What a farce

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