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	<title>Comments on: 21% of Atheists believe in God?</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: Rosemary</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52634</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosemary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 22:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@andrealudwig:  Many of us who de-converted from Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity have heard this reasoning before.  If it were true then you do not need to worry. because we all continue to be &quot;saved&quot;.  That is, unless the Evangelical Conversion Formulae is wrong or your version of god is a liar and does not really sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in someone if they do all the things that the Evangelical Conversion Formulae specifies.  

In any case, Andrea, if is very logically fallacious to make a post-hoc analysis of a person&#039;s group membership based on whether they eventually conform to the expected outcome criteria.  If you try doing that in any practical science class and you will not only fail, but will probably also be used as a cautionary tale to teach other students what not to do.   It is the equivalent of arguing that someone who is pregnant could not have been following a birth control plan as prescribed.  (A notorious research study into the efficacy of Catholic birth control methods actually did this.  Any one who got pregnant was simply dropped from the study on the grounds that they weren&#039;t really following the method or they would not have got pregnant.  As you might be able to see in this particular instance, this is completely circular logic.  This allowed the study to conclude (falsely) that the Catholic method being studies was nearly 100 percent effective compared with the less effective (97 percent) artificial birth control method, which did not remove people if they got pregnant.    

Your reasoning falls into a similar logical trap.  Your sample is actually 100 percent effective because you throw out everybody who follows the method but does not turn out the way the theory says they should.  This is bad, bad, bad, bad reasoning.   Instead, be honest and admit that there is quite a large percentage of people who were once &quot;saved&quot; who no longer believe any of it was real.  Look around you.  About 10 percent, or more, of the people who you now think are excellent examples of the &quot;saved&quot; Christian will become &quot;unsaved&quot; over the next 25 years.  Can you tell, ahead of time, which ones they will be?  Since I have studied the phenomena I might be able to come up with a pretty reasonable guess, if I knew a few details about their personality, intellect and probably future place of residence, but I doubt that you could. Of course, one of them might turn out to be you.  Think about that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@andrealudwig:  Many of us who de-converted from Fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity have heard this reasoning before.  If it were true then you do not need to worry. because we all continue to be &#8220;saved&#8221;.  That is, unless the Evangelical Conversion Formulae is wrong or your version of god is a liar and does not really sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in someone if they do all the things that the Evangelical Conversion Formulae specifies.  </p>
<p>In any case, Andrea, if is very logically fallacious to make a post-hoc analysis of a person&#8217;s group membership based on whether they eventually conform to the expected outcome criteria.  If you try doing that in any practical science class and you will not only fail, but will probably also be used as a cautionary tale to teach other students what not to do.   It is the equivalent of arguing that someone who is pregnant could not have been following a birth control plan as prescribed.  (A notorious research study into the efficacy of Catholic birth control methods actually did this.  Any one who got pregnant was simply dropped from the study on the grounds that they weren&#8217;t really following the method or they would not have got pregnant.  As you might be able to see in this particular instance, this is completely circular logic.  This allowed the study to conclude (falsely) that the Catholic method being studies was nearly 100 percent effective compared with the less effective (97 percent) artificial birth control method, which did not remove people if they got pregnant.    </p>
<p>Your reasoning falls into a similar logical trap.  Your sample is actually 100 percent effective because you throw out everybody who follows the method but does not turn out the way the theory says they should.  This is bad, bad, bad, bad reasoning.   Instead, be honest and admit that there is quite a large percentage of people who were once &#8220;saved&#8221; who no longer believe any of it was real.  Look around you.  About 10 percent, or more, of the people who you now think are excellent examples of the &#8220;saved&#8221; Christian will become &#8220;unsaved&#8221; over the next 25 years.  Can you tell, ahead of time, which ones they will be?  Since I have studied the phenomena I might be able to come up with a pretty reasonable guess, if I knew a few details about their personality, intellect and probably future place of residence, but I doubt that you could. Of course, one of them might turn out to be you.  Think about that.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosemary</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52633</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosemary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52633</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ brandon grissom :

  P.S. There is a lot of invalid evidence for the existence of gods, including yours.  

Unlike the systems of other several other developed countries, the U.S. secondary educational system contains no nationally compulsory lessons in the rudiments of critical thinking, the skills of logical reasoning, the identification of fallacious reasoning, the art of baloney detection and the recognition of insidious scams and marketing ploys.  

Without mastery of these skills the bulk of the American public will continue to be more than usually fooled by people, like Creationists (almost entirely a U.S. phenomena) and mega evangelists (also a U.S. invention) who deliberately attempt to dupe and exploit the gullible believer in order to obtain money, power and ego trips.  They will also be at the mercy of well-meaning people who are unaware that they lack knowledge and experience in relevant areas and are therefore mistaken and misinformed and easily misled by charismatic con artists who manage to persuade them that they are not.  

The younger and less educated the person, and the less skeptical they are of things they are told by those in positions of real or apparent authority, the more susceptible they are to being duped.  

I would strongly recommend that you seek to remedy these deficits in what ever way you can.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ brandon grissom :</p>
<p>  P.S. There is a lot of invalid evidence for the existence of gods, including yours.  </p>
<p>Unlike the systems of other several other developed countries, the U.S. secondary educational system contains no nationally compulsory lessons in the rudiments of critical thinking, the skills of logical reasoning, the identification of fallacious reasoning, the art of baloney detection and the recognition of insidious scams and marketing ploys.  </p>
<p>Without mastery of these skills the bulk of the American public will continue to be more than usually fooled by people, like Creationists (almost entirely a U.S. phenomena) and mega evangelists (also a U.S. invention) who deliberately attempt to dupe and exploit the gullible believer in order to obtain money, power and ego trips.  They will also be at the mercy of well-meaning people who are unaware that they lack knowledge and experience in relevant areas and are therefore mistaken and misinformed and easily misled by charismatic con artists who manage to persuade them that they are not.  </p>
<p>The younger and less educated the person, and the less skeptical they are of things they are told by those in positions of real or apparent authority, the more susceptible they are to being duped.  </p>
<p>I would strongly recommend that you seek to remedy these deficits in what ever way you can.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosemary</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52632</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosemary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:07:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52632</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[brandon grissom :  Unlike the concept of &quot;gravity&quot;, the concept of &quot;god&quot; fails all the tests or simply cannot be distinguished from the effects caused by &quot;no god&quot;. 

Since there is no valid evidence for the existence of a god, even yours, there is no valid reason why anyone should believe that one exists, even yours.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>brandon grissom :  Unlike the concept of &#8220;gravity&#8221;, the concept of &#8220;god&#8221; fails all the tests or simply cannot be distinguished from the effects caused by &#8220;no god&#8221;. </p>
<p>Since there is no valid evidence for the existence of a god, even yours, there is no valid reason why anyone should believe that one exists, even yours.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosemary</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52631</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosemary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:00:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There = their.  Spell check is bad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There = their.  Spell check is bad.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rosemary</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52630</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rosemary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:59:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52630</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This seems to reflect the usual ignorance of Fungelical Christians about the meaning of the word &quot;atheist&quot;.   There apologists keep telling them that an atheist is someone who &quot;rejects God&quot; or has &quot;turned their back on God&quot;.  In order to reject something or turn your back on it you have to believe it is real.  The only thing that is real here is the egregious ignorance of so many people who have experienced nothing but the commercialized U.S. edification system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems to reflect the usual ignorance of Fungelical Christians about the meaning of the word &#8220;atheist&#8221;.   There apologists keep telling them that an atheist is someone who &#8220;rejects God&#8221; or has &#8220;turned their back on God&#8221;.  In order to reject something or turn your back on it you have to believe it is real.  The only thing that is real here is the egregious ignorance of so many people who have experienced nothing but the commercialized U.S. edification system.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-52589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2011 21:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-52589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also in the poll: 24% of virgins had sex, 32% of dead people are alive, 42% of black people have white skin, and 16% of blind people can see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also in the poll: 24% of virgins had sex, 32% of dead people are alive, 42% of black people have white skin, and 16% of blind people can see.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: intellectuallyfulfilledatheist</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-40273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[intellectuallyfulfilledatheist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Dec 2009 19:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-40273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The graphic on this blog is entirely dishonest.  I followed the link provided to the study and downloaded the full 210 page pdf file of the full report.  The question that this graphic is supposed to represent is found on page 167 of the report.  Atheists aren&#039;t mentioned at all, instead you see &quot;unaffiliated&quot;, which most likely includes atheists but also other religious people who don&#039;t affiliate themselves with any of the denominations that they were presented with by the survey.  The person who made the graphic didn&#039;t even get the numbers right.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The graphic on this blog is entirely dishonest.  I followed the link provided to the study and downloaded the full 210 page pdf file of the full report.  The question that this graphic is supposed to represent is found on page 167 of the report.  Atheists aren&#8217;t mentioned at all, instead you see &#8220;unaffiliated&#8221;, which most likely includes atheists but also other religious people who don&#8217;t affiliate themselves with any of the denominations that they were presented with by the survey.  The person who made the graphic didn&#8217;t even get the numbers right.</p>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-33164</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 22:59:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-33164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe Brandon is real.  A real sad example of the kind of product put out by our educational systems.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe Brandon is real.  A real sad example of the kind of product put out by our educational systems.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: BigHouse</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-33163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BigHouse]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 21:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-33163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Lets say I dont believe in gravity doesn’t mean i can go jump off a building and float around.
God is real.&lt;/i&gt;

Ok, brandon, I&#039;ll bite.  If God is gravity, what test is analgous to your jumping off a building?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Lets say I dont believe in gravity doesn’t mean i can go jump off a building and float around.<br />
God is real.</i></p>
<p>Ok, brandon, I&#8217;ll bite.  If God is gravity, what test is analgous to your jumping off a building?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: brandon grissom</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/06/28/21-of-atheists-believe-in-god/#comment-33160</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brandon grissom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 18:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=964#comment-33160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok i want to put this out there.
Just to say &quot;The Atheist&quot; dont believe in God, they have no proof that he is not real.
Lets say I dont believe in gravity doesn&#039;t mean i can go jump off a building and float around.
God is real.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok i want to put this out there.<br />
Just to say &#8220;The Atheist&#8221; dont believe in God, they have no proof that he is not real.<br />
Lets say I dont believe in gravity doesn&#8217;t mean i can go jump off a building and float around.<br />
God is real.</p>
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