I am still a Christian. I don’t think de converting is something one should do without a great deal of thought. I appreciate this site because I can ask former Christians for insight and I can also challenge the Christians that pop in from time to time. It has been a great learning experience for me.

Rover – Are you still Christian or have you deconverted, since it seems like you were heading towards that direction.

Science Buff’s – I know there are still a lot of mysteries about the universe, disagreements about things in regards to the big bang, but very little disagreement on evolution. My question is more linked to abiogenesis, in what are the theories that explain how matter developed a self replicating mechanism? Which of the theories has the most support?

I know this is more of a side note question from how this thread originally started but I figured I’d take advantage of this thread being highly active. For the record, I am not a Christian or an Atheist and do not entirely agree with all views in terms of explanation of origins/Universe/Big bang, etc, but I do agree and accept evolution as an origin of humanity and still feel altruism is an interesting case because even though evolution involves the survival of a species it is also based on the collective of individuals to pass on their individual genes, when one sacrifices themselves to promote someone else’s genes instead of passing on theirs that seems to be something outside the scope of what evolution entails, to me that self sacrifice only truly makes sense when the population is so small that it in itself needs it like a last man on earth scenario. But altruism in larger populations doesn’t seem to make sense to me from an evolutionary standpoint.

Of course to be clear, I am an agnostic, as much as I accept the physical reality I accept the probability that our senses and our sense extension tools can not engage all of reality and what it entails at this time, maybe one day.

Although, I was quite surprised that the second to the last post wasn’t answered.

I actually haven’t recalled seeing “Evanescent” around since that debate. Perhaps I should go back when I have some time – but I don’t think “Empy” is around either.

I remember when I was a Christian being moved to tears while reading the Crucifixion story. My heart felt flooded, I couldn’t comprehend how God could love me so much to go through all of that. But then as I got older, and was reading that very same story, it suddenly came to me that for an all-knowing, God, that sacrifice didn’t seem that great. I even thought to myself that if someone came to me and said, we have to kill you in a terrible torturous way in order for 2,000 people to live (just 2,000, not even the entire world, and just to live, not to live eternally) that I would give up my life. I know that the real punishment Jesus was said to endure was separation from God, and even though I knew I couldn’t comprehend that, I still thought that I would go through with that incomprehensible pain, especially if I knew that it would only be temporary, and even if temporary still felt like forever, but had an end. This was still when I was very much a Christian, and the thought caused me so much guilt, but I could never get over it.

I would make that sacrifice, and I’m just a human.

I understand what you are saying. But again, it wasn’t the infinite being who suffered in the garden, or on the cross. As Rover pointed out, it says in Phillipians that he “emptied himself” of his power of divinity and became a man—-and he suffered all of those things as a man. Though we cannot understand the full concept of the crucifixion, or what happened there, Jesus suffered tremendously for our sins–that is all I was trying to say. It wasn’t a walk in the park.

I’m not arguing what you say in human terms. I’m talking about what that adds up to in terms of an omnipotent, infinite being, which is very little.

Believers are supposed to recognize as much that their earthly sufferings will be little compared to everlasting life in Heaven, right?

silentj—

I believe it is a bit more than the comparison of putting your daughter down to walk and then picking her up while she was crying. Has your daughter ever been in such grief and sadness that she has cried with her sweat being like “giant drops of blood falling to the ground” as it says Jesus endured in the garden?

We have a tendency to forget that Jesus was very God of God, but also very man of man. He was “tempted in all ways such as we are, yet without sin” as a man. His suffering in the garden, his flogging and shame, his crucifixion, were all felt as a “man”. This is a far cry from a little girl crying because she wants to be picked up. Try to read through the Gospel accounts of Jesus’ suffering one more time if you get a chance.

I read the entire thread.

A plague upon both your houses!!! It was an interesting read, but I think it unnecessarily raised my blood pressure.

Although, I was quite surprised that the second to the last post wasn’t answered. I guess the veterans are smarter about feeding the trolls than I am. It is pretty humorous that so many responses end with something along the lines of, “I can’t argue against this, but there will be judgment one day, and you’ll be sorry!”

Back to the point, suffice it to say that religion is tightly wrapped in most people’s lives. To profess to believe or not to believe is a big decision. Day to day life is pretty much the same, but professing either can be detrimental depending on your community.

“Now that is some stellar logic.”

I take it that was a compliment, Thanks.