B.R. Forer (1914-2000) “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

You can stand by your words all you want. They still won’t actually mean anything. I enjoy stories of Peter Pan and robot wars, and the stories I like best are the ones that touch upon essential aspects of human nature- reflecting our “character, thoughts, heart, desires, shortcomings, strengths, fears, hopes and even… foolishnesses”. But while these stories can teach us something about ourselves, the events in them did not actually happen. The characters portrayed do not exist outside of our imagination.

Any book pertaining to history can of course be analysed to assess it’s reliably. The claim is that Jesus literally and historically existed and said and did some very specific things – and it is these doings and sayings that Christianity is based. It doesn’t mater how much you might want it to be true or feel that its right for you or even how much it makes you happy and joyfilled. That has no relation to its factual accuracy.

>>I am convinced the Bible is true by the reality of my own heart and mind

this is a huge mistake, and i submit that you would say the same to a person of another faith who has made judgements on whats true based on a vague ‘reality’ of heart and mind

I guess you would consider the Koran to be historically unreliable, and I doubt that you would be impressed by a Muslim who says what you have said (substituting bible/Koran Jesus/Mohamed).

James 1:7 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Perhaps it is my imagination, but I have found this to be a true statement. It has nothing to do with stubbing toes.

Perhaps your own wisdom is to impressive for you to get beyond. I stand by the things I said. Also, as observed in the Bible, spiritual things cannot be discerned by the natural mind. Stubbing ones toe is a natural thing to do, so is saying “ouch”. All of which has nothing to do with the human soul, which you no doubt do not believe in.

As I observed in my first post, logical or philosophical discussion cannot resolve the question of the reliability of the Bible. To enter into such a discussion would only be a waste of time for both you and me. I will not debate with you whether or not the Bible is the authentic Word of God. I made my original comments to ‘QuestionMonkey’ and I stand by them.

Joe

Reliability is not a test of how much you like something, or how much you hant it to be true, but how well it conforms to reality and allows you to predict what will happen in the world that is. Whatever takes place in your heart or mind beyond blood pumping and electrical charges in irrelevant compared to what evidence can or can not be found in the world around us.

You exist, as does the world you, and when you next stub your toe, you will find that no work of imagination or faith will change what really is.

You began by saying “I’ve heard Christians say that what one must do is look at the life of Jesus, and decide what you make of him.”

You are right. I’ve heard that, too. However, if you know very many Christians, you probably also know that there seem to be more “truths” concerning Christ and the bible than there are people in what ever town or city you live in. If one were absolutely convinced that the Bible is in all ways absolutely reliable, one would still be hard pressed to find the so-called “interpretation” of it that one could consider reliable.

I would like to submit for your consideration, a short story:

One night, a police officer walking his beat came across a man crawling about the sidewalk beneath a street lamp. “What are you doing?” asked the officer.

“I dropped a silver dollar, I am looking for it here.”

“Oh,” said the officer, “Is it a valuable one?”

“Well, besides being the only dollar I happen to own at the moment, yes, it is very old, and worth quite a bit of money” came the reply. “I was walking down the sidewalk in front of that cafe down the street and I heard it drop when I pulled my keys out of my pocket” said the man.

“You dropped it down the street in front of the cafe and you are looking for it here, on the corner? Why on earth look for it here if you dropped it down there?” asked the policeman.

“Well,” said the man, “This is where the street light shines best on the sidewalk.”

My point is this: To research the character of Jesus in the Bible and see what one thinks of him is a good thing to do, and should be done by any honest hearted Christian. But it is better to seek first ones self in the Bible and discover what Jesus thinks of you. I realize that may sound a bit foolish, but, my own experience is that the Bible has so perfectly reflected my own character, thoughts, heart, desires, shortcomings, strengths, fears, hopes and even my foolishnesses during all the situations and circumstances of my life that I have come to hold it absolutely reliable.

Are the miricles of the Bible true? I believe so. But I did not come to that belief by researching Jesus. I came to that conclusion in astonishment of the perfection in which I found my own heart and mind and most inner thoughts written in the pages of the Bible. For me, it is easier to believe in the miracle performing Jesus than it is to believe that some 44 different writers of such varying backgrounds over a period of some 1500 years could have written 66 different books 2000 years ago that when put together so perfectly define my own heart and and mind and it’s varying conditions and my most secret thoughts throughout my life.

Ultimately, whether or not every miracle actually happened as described in the Bible is not what I am convinced of or by. Though I do believe the Biblical record is true, the miracles are of secondary consideration to me. I am convinced the Bible is true by the reality of my own heart and mind, where I live, where no one but me lives, unless it be the ultimate author of that sacred book, the spirit of God which moved those men to write as they did. Christ, after all, did not come to be a showmen, but that men might be reconciled to God and that by the reconciliation with God in our hearts and minds, our souls might be saved.

You also said: “However, once I have come to the decision that the Bible IS reliable, then its game over, you can consider me a Christian.” Well, there is no one that convince you of the reliablity of Gods word. It is not an argument that can be won by those who affirm it against those who deny it, or by those who deny it against those who confirm it for that matter. Learn where to look. That, my friend, would be in your own heart and mind. Then, by dilligence and growing faith, the light, unlike the street light in the story, shines not just in one place, but in every corner of the mind that finds itself written in the word of God. Man cannot convince you. Neither will a consideration of miracles, no matter how you try. Only one thing can convince any man, or woman. That is God himself. But you have to meet him in the your being, where you live, not in the logic of philosophical discussion or argument.

You have been created in his own image (spiritualy speaking, of course) and when you find Jesus, you will find that he has been waiting there, in your own heart, all along.

Joseph R. Kidd

Ebonically speaking, TRU DAT!!!!

Check out the Ep where Mr. Deity is trying to convince his son Jesus to go down to earth and get crucified. That one is hilarious!

I just think that we as a society should be equally careful in what we let in and what we completely disregard, that’s all.

I think as a society, we are entirely too ready to let anything in, as long as it sounds good. That’s how we end up with miracle diet pills, detox foot pads, magnetic bracelets, pyramid schemes and Scientology. I think we need tougher standards.

I checked out a little Mr. Deity. Priceless – I’ll have to look at the rest. Thanks for the reference.

Seems to me that unless someone can recreate an experience(ESP) consistently, you wont believe it. What percentage would be good enough for you to say that its a possibility?

Well, for me to see it as a real possibility, I would want to see something that shows that someone claiming ESP would be able to have a result several times better than what we would expect from random chance. For instance, if we set up a trial where there was only a 1% chance of being correct by chance, but a psychic was able to get the correct answer 10% of the time, and do it consistently, I’d consider that as a real possibility. They don’t have to have a perfect skill, they just have to show something beyond wishful thinking and random chance.

As for Tiger Woods, considering the average person’s liklihood of winning a professional golf tournament, 27% is really amazing.

Sometimes we get lost in words. Psychic being one of them. I know someone personally who gets, lets say, so called pictures in her mind. It is not always, but when she does it is extremely accurate. How it happens, who knows. Can we chart it or quantify it, no way. All I know is when it happens its as real as my hand.