Comments on: Reasons why I de-converted and now consider myself an atheist

By: Ubi Dubium

Ubi Dubium — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:13:35 +0000

Campistheword

…We have a conscience that doesn’t seem to be present anywhere else…

I don’t see this issue as black and white by any means. Thanks from the plant you watered? No. Thanks from the dog you just fed? Most assuredly. A sense of right and wrong? Research with great apes shows they have quite a bit of this. I don’t see an abrupt difference between us and the other animals, I see a spectrum with us toward one end. I’m not even sure we are the creature with the highest sense of conscience – until we learn to speak dolphin I don’t think we really can know that. They might be better than we are.

I am glad that you have never demonized an atheist. I’d love to see more people who think like that. But there are plenty who accuse us of all kinds of awfulness, and when we speak out, that’s what we are reacting to. My kids have been told by schoolmates that they are going to hell. Political ads use association with Atheists as a smear tactic against their opponents. There have even been billboards posted saying “Why do Atheists hate America?”. There are lots of individual “good christians” and most of those I know fit into this description. But there plenty of lousy ones out there.

By: orDover

orDover — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 20:23:37 +0000

“Clearly, this is an important discussion for ex-believers to have with each other and a curious visitor is not really welcome, I respect that.”

Curious visitors are welcome, but it’s best if they know what they’re talking about and who they’re talking to before they decide to comment, or else the come across as nothing but rude.

“It sounds like it was lousy Christians that have changed your view.”

No. I don’t even think I’ve met a lousy Christian, to be honest. Christians as people had nothing to do with it, rather it was the complete lack of evidence for their God.

By: campistheword

campistheword — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 17:39:45 +0000

orDover, you are right and I only landed here by accident. Clearly, this is an important discussion for ex-believers to have with each other and a curious visitor is not really welcome, I respect that.
Ubi dubium, I have never demonized or discriminated against anyone for being an atheist or any other reason. I am a lousy evangelist. I was also not born into a “religion”, nor was I was “taught” my faith. I don’t care for atheists any more or less than I care for Christians. (I have been attacked verbally by atheists for being a believer.)

As far as being different from other living creation than each other, I have yet to be apologized to by the bee that stung me, or thanked by the plant I watered. We have a conscience that doesn’t seem to be present anywhere else and that seems to be how we experience good and evil, or right and wrong if that is more palatable.

orDover, I think it would be helpful if every Christian were not tarred with the same brush, as the condemnation seems very clear and thorough. I rarely expound my beliefs, but that dosen’t preclude “good works” whatever the motive. It sounds like it was lousy Christians that have changed your view.

By: Ubi Dubium

Ubi Dubium — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 04:44:33 +0000

Dratted italics. Those should have shut off after the word “be”.

By: Ubi Dubium

Ubi Dubium — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 04:43:30 +0000

@campistheword
Most Atheists are not “campaigning for atheism”. Not in the US anyway. We are campaigning for the right of people to be atheists without being demonized and discriminated against. I don’t care what you believe, as long as you allow me, and others, the right to choose not to believe it. We are now starting to be more noisy and visible about it because remaining quiet has not improved our standing in American society.

I would say that I personally am campaigning for “freethought”. I would prefer that everybody work it out for themselves, instead of just mindlessly accepting what they are taught. The “good news” I talk about is that you don’t have to be a sheep. It’s OK to doubt, it’s OK to ask questions. Whatever conclusion you come to on your own about life is likely to be a better fit for you than whatever religion you happened to be born into.

Oh, and in reply to your previous post – why do you assume there is a difference between us and all other life?

By: orDover

orDover — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 04:19:28 +0000

campistheword,

This site is not “campaigning for atheism,” which you could have figured out by reading the banner at the top of the page. We’re not trying to convince people to stop believing in god here, we are a community dedicating to sharing and discussing our mutual experiences. This isn’t a site for Christians, it’s a site for ex-Christians.

By: campistheword

campistheword — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:39:05 +0000

I don’t understand campaigning for atheism. Why would you need to convince people to stop believing in the thing you say doesn’t exist? You should be happy. It doesn’t exist therefore they’re not able to believe in it. I always thought atheists were just abstainers. Now, you just have something different to give witness to. same old, same old.

By: campistheword

campistheword — Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:30:15 +0000

Is the difference between us and all other life our conscience?

By: For what it is Worth...

For what it is Worth... — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:21:06 +0000

I have only time enough to respond to your first two arguments. Do not think that I consider the other numbered reasons less valid, but I read these two reason first (obviously). If I may boil down the first two argument to one simple sentence: Why believe in God when bad things happen (especially to those who He supposedly is happy with, Christians). If this is not a correct summation, please tell me a better one. I think the answer from this comes in part from correctly understanding who God is. He is not a safety net. God does not protect and never promises to protect Christians, or anyone for that matter, from the dangers of this world. He only promises that he will provide comfort when those dangers present themselves. These dangers come for a number of reasons. First of which is that God never makes decisions for people. God allows people, both Christians and not, to make all their decisions for themselves. And what happens, 100% of the time, is that people are not perfect. And, when people are not perfect, negative consequences result. These negative consequences cause the bad things to happen. Now, then you might ask, why does God not then just make our decisions for us so that we do not make bad decisions. The answer here is similar to the relationship between a Parent and child, (after all, Christians believe that God is a Father). A parent wishes for a child to become a mature adult. To do this requires that the parent let the child start, as they get older, making decisions for themselves. These decisions that the child makes often gets the child in trouble, but a good parent will not come in and then shield the child from ever making their own decisions again. A good parent will allow the mistake to cause whatever negative consequence it has and let the child learn from it. If the parent where to constantly shield the child from the negative consequence, then the child would never stop doing the action that caused the negative consequence. In the same way, God wants his children to become mature adults who know how to act to prevent negative consequences.
Also, things that happen that can be considered “bad” my not after all have been “bad”. For example, when someone is fired from their job, that can be considered to be “bad”. However, if that firing then allows the person to be in the right place at the right time to get a better job, then that firing cannot really be called “bad”. Often people, including me and many others that I know, are very short sided and can only see the “bad” that is immediate. They often over look the eventual good that can come out of “bad” situations. This is also even true for things like when a family member dies. For example, my grandfather died about 5 years ago. At the time, my sister took the news very hard. But, this hardship brought the final outcome of her becoming very much appreciative for her own life and wanting to make sure she made the most of it while she could.
Also, a Christian does not even consider dying “bad”. This is because that for a Christian, to die is to gain. Dying allows the Christian to get away from this inferior world to a better perfect place where there is no pain. (I realize this comfort is little for those who think people become worm food upon death, but it puts into perspective what can be considered bad.)
Also, lastly, harship, such as bad things happening to Christians, is seen as discipline. Again, drawing from the Parent child relationship, what child is not disciplined by their parent. A good parent will discipline their child because they love them. If a child does some bad thing, hitting their brother or sister, then that child should suffer a negative consequence that causes him or her not to want to hit their siblings any more. This is a little different from my first point because in this situation, the parent takes a proactive effort to cause a negative consequence for the child instead of just letting the negative consequence happen as a result of the bad action. In this situation, a parent will do something like ground the child from TV. This creates the desire for the child then to not want to hit his or her sibling because they do not want to be prevented from watchin TV. It is not until later that the child learns the idealistic idea of right and wrong and that hitting others is wrong. But, this discipline creates a starting point of reference for the child that hitting is wrong. The relationship God has with people (his children) is similar. If people disobey him in whatever reason they choose, God wishes to correct the negative behavior. If God decides that one is putting their job above their family, then God might take away that job to allow His child to re-focus on what is important. And, like a good parent, God is doing this not because He wishes us harm, but because He loves us. However, as I said earlier, people, including me, are short sided, and it takes us time to learn these lessons (much like the child who hits his or her sibling until they figure out what consequence that brings and that the parent is serious in what they say).
I hope this helps answer at least the first two reasons you give. I would appreciate a give and take on this, so, please feel free to respond to my arguments and give reasons why you may or may not reject them.

My Humble Opinion

P.S. In response to the Apostate on Sept 3, there is no mention of how many wise men their are. That is merely church tradition. I know you mentioned other things, but at least with that point, there is no mention of there being three wise men. And, for many of the reasons mentioned, I personally reject all Church tradition as being just that, from the tradition of people, and only accept as ultimate truth the Bible (which was written when people were alive who lived during the life of Jesus and would have refute its contents as ridiculous if it was not true)

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