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	<title>Comments on: In the Mirror of God</title>
	<atom:link href="http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: LeoPardus</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[LeoPardus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:57:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[karen:

&lt;i&gt;Husband and I are both now atheists. &lt;/i&gt;

I asked you about this over on the forum site.  As I recall, he was still a believer only a year or two ago. Come on over the the forum and tell me the story please.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>karen:</p>
<p><i>Husband and I are both now atheists. </i></p>
<p>I asked you about this over on the forum site.  As I recall, he was still a believer only a year or two ago. Come on over the the forum and tell me the story please.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26868</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Derek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26868</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m going to have to re-read this again, when I&#039;m not hungry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to have to re-read this again, when I&#8217;m not hungry.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26806</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26806</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joan – I appreciate your thoughtfulness and your insights.  You have helped me refine my view and stimulate some thought.  Although I am still convinced that  teaching children they are fundamentally wicked is psychologically destructive, perhaps that is more sure than the opposite; namely, that teaching them that they are good = psychologically healthy.  But its probably more complex even than that.

There are a lot of variables and influences that go into child development and not all of them (or even most) have anything to do with religion.  For instance, have you  ever read Alice Miller’s The Drama of the Gifted Child?  She argues, persuasively to my mind, that an exaggerated emphasis on the success of the child, and excessive praise, can actually be harmful.  It gives the child the message that she is valued more for what she does than for what she is.  I.e., as a “narcissistic extension” of the parent – as though her sole purpose in life is to reflect well on the parent.  It can result in a profoundly fragile self-esteem.  Very much like my “mirror” metaphor in my post.

That’s just an example.  Its hard to generalize much about child development, since it is so complex.  There are also biological predispositions or concepts like “goodness of fit” between a childs temperament and that of his (often loving and well-intended) parent. What I take away from my own experience is that the labeling of thoughts and feelings into the categories of good and bad is what I found to be so destructive for me.  Emotions and thoughts are morally and ethically neutral, in my view, which is a good thing because convincing ourselves that they are “bad” is a pretty awful mess to be in.  We cant control our feelings and by and large cant control our thoughts by force of will (“whatever you do, do not think of a polar bear.”  Now what just went through your head?)  Of course, what we *do* based on our thoughts and feelings matters quite a lot.

And that’s the take home message for me.  I want to teach my kids that they are okay no matter what they think or feel.  That’s what I meant by “okay” in #10.  Not that anything they *do* is okay, but that there is a difference between their feelings and thoughts and their core selves.  That’s the distinction that Christianity, as I experienced it, tried to obliterate, and I spent years crawling out from under it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan – I appreciate your thoughtfulness and your insights.  You have helped me refine my view and stimulate some thought.  Although I am still convinced that  teaching children they are fundamentally wicked is psychologically destructive, perhaps that is more sure than the opposite; namely, that teaching them that they are good = psychologically healthy.  But its probably more complex even than that.</p>
<p>There are a lot of variables and influences that go into child development and not all of them (or even most) have anything to do with religion.  For instance, have you  ever read Alice Miller’s The Drama of the Gifted Child?  She argues, persuasively to my mind, that an exaggerated emphasis on the success of the child, and excessive praise, can actually be harmful.  It gives the child the message that she is valued more for what she does than for what she is.  I.e., as a “narcissistic extension” of the parent – as though her sole purpose in life is to reflect well on the parent.  It can result in a profoundly fragile self-esteem.  Very much like my “mirror” metaphor in my post.</p>
<p>That’s just an example.  Its hard to generalize much about child development, since it is so complex.  There are also biological predispositions or concepts like “goodness of fit” between a childs temperament and that of his (often loving and well-intended) parent. What I take away from my own experience is that the labeling of thoughts and feelings into the categories of good and bad is what I found to be so destructive for me.  Emotions and thoughts are morally and ethically neutral, in my view, which is a good thing because convincing ourselves that they are “bad” is a pretty awful mess to be in.  We cant control our feelings and by and large cant control our thoughts by force of will (“whatever you do, do not think of a polar bear.”  Now what just went through your head?)  Of course, what we *do* based on our thoughts and feelings matters quite a lot.</p>
<p>And that’s the take home message for me.  I want to teach my kids that they are okay no matter what they think or feel.  That’s what I meant by “okay” in #10.  Not that anything they *do* is okay, but that there is a difference between their feelings and thoughts and their core selves.  That’s the distinction that Christianity, as I experienced it, tried to obliterate, and I spent years crawling out from under it.</p>
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		<title>By: john t.</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john t.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joan

I just finished reading a very interesting and entertaining book called &quot;The year of living Biblically, One mans Humble quest to follow the Bible as Literally as possible&quot;. Its my opinion and it seems that the Author has the same, Everyone picks and chooses from the  Bible. I heard a nice quote, you might like this.

&quot;Wherever your Heart is, your exegesis will follow&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan</p>
<p>I just finished reading a very interesting and entertaining book called &#8220;The year of living Biblically, One mans Humble quest to follow the Bible as Literally as possible&#8221;. Its my opinion and it seems that the Author has the same, Everyone picks and chooses from the  Bible. I heard a nice quote, you might like this.</p>
<p>&#8220;Wherever your Heart is, your exegesis will follow&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Joan  Ball</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26793</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joan  Ball]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Johnt: Actually, I get quite quite caught up in the details and spend many hours seeking to have a deeper understanding of what this faith is about. That is part of the reason I love this site so much.  What I don&#039;t do is argue about it. To clarify, I actually do not believe that I get to pick and choose what parts of this to believe...that would mean that I am making up my own religion, which is pretty scary. 

Instead, I am working on conforming my life to my best understanding of it. Of course this will be a life&#039;s work since I must live in the uncertainty of constant change in the face of a continually evolving understanding of the faith.  

The result is actually the opposite of &quot;finding a faith that helps deal with life and its complexities.&quot;  In fact, in many ways it has created new and more challenging complexities in my life and the lives of my family members. 

It is actually a very rich and exciting existence...which is not how many people I know tend to describe their experience of Chrisitianity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnt: Actually, I get quite quite caught up in the details and spend many hours seeking to have a deeper understanding of what this faith is about. That is part of the reason I love this site so much.  What I don&#8217;t do is argue about it. To clarify, I actually do not believe that I get to pick and choose what parts of this to believe&#8230;that would mean that I am making up my own religion, which is pretty scary. </p>
<p>Instead, I am working on conforming my life to my best understanding of it. Of course this will be a life&#8217;s work since I must live in the uncertainty of constant change in the face of a continually evolving understanding of the faith.  </p>
<p>The result is actually the opposite of &#8220;finding a faith that helps deal with life and its complexities.&#8221;  In fact, in many ways it has created new and more challenging complexities in my life and the lives of my family members. </p>
<p>It is actually a very rich and exciting existence&#8230;which is not how many people I know tend to describe their experience of Chrisitianity.</p>
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		<title>By: john t.</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john t.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Youve found a faith that helps you deal with life and its complexities, and from what ive noticed dont get too caught up in the many details of that faith. You seem to use what works, and avoid the other aspects.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Youve found a faith that helps you deal with life and its complexities, and from what ive noticed dont get too caught up in the many details of that faith. You seem to use what works, and avoid the other aspects.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan  Ball</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joan  Ball]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:50:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Johnt: Not sure what you mean...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnt: Not sure what you mean&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: john t.</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john t.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joan

Ah, you have developed the ability to use what works. Kudos.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan</p>
<p>Ah, you have developed the ability to use what works. Kudos.</p>
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		<title>By: Joan  Ball</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26789</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joan  Ball]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26789</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Johnt: Here&#039;s where I have landed on this.  I really don&#039;t mind thinking of myself as a sinful mess.  That may be because I was never beat over the head with it.  As a matter of fact, for me it came as something of a relief. It explained a lot for me and gave me something tangible to go after. Since I first came to the &quot;sin nature&quot; concept through a 12 step program, there was also a different language that may have been a gentler introduction for my then science-oriented mindset.  Instead of sin, recovery refers to &quot;character defects&quot;.  Did I have character defects?  Yup.  Were many of them traceable back to childhood?  Yup.  Was I able to get rid of them by brute force? Nope.  Was I willing to lay down my ego and try something different?  I sure was.

Thus began a movement in the direction of less self-sufficiency, which eventually became a belief in a power greater than myself which later became a faith in God, which then emerged as a faith in Jesus as the son of that God.  I don&#039;t get into the tit for tat over whether those &quot;character defects&quot;  are sin or genetics or if sin is genetic, etc., etc.  I have (finally) come to learn that I am just not smart enough to have all of those answers.  

So, long way to a short answer, I have found the balance you describe in what I still perceive to be a surprising place...my faith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johnt: Here&#8217;s where I have landed on this.  I really don&#8217;t mind thinking of myself as a sinful mess.  That may be because I was never beat over the head with it.  As a matter of fact, for me it came as something of a relief. It explained a lot for me and gave me something tangible to go after. Since I first came to the &#8220;sin nature&#8221; concept through a 12 step program, there was also a different language that may have been a gentler introduction for my then science-oriented mindset.  Instead of sin, recovery refers to &#8220;character defects&#8221;.  Did I have character defects?  Yup.  Were many of them traceable back to childhood?  Yup.  Was I able to get rid of them by brute force? Nope.  Was I willing to lay down my ego and try something different?  I sure was.</p>
<p>Thus began a movement in the direction of less self-sufficiency, which eventually became a belief in a power greater than myself which later became a faith in God, which then emerged as a faith in Jesus as the son of that God.  I don&#8217;t get into the tit for tat over whether those &#8220;character defects&#8221;  are sin or genetics or if sin is genetic, etc., etc.  I have (finally) come to learn that I am just not smart enough to have all of those answers.  </p>
<p>So, long way to a short answer, I have found the balance you describe in what I still perceive to be a surprising place&#8230;my faith.</p>
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		<title>By: john t.</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/09/10/in-the-mirror-of-god/#comment-26788</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john t.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=1713#comment-26788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joan

Even the bible talks about the duality of life. Seems God has it too.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)

 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joan</p>
<p>Even the bible talks about the duality of life. Seems God has it too.</p>
<p>Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)</p>
<p> I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.</p>
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