Actually the anecdote had more to do with leaning towards belief rather than abandoning it. One who has never experienced “Deja Vu” thinks the whole matter is hogwash. Once they have experienced that feeling for themselves they will conclude the “experience” is a real one. They will need to conclude for themselves though whether Deja Vu itself is real.

I admit the “experience” or “feeling” of Deja Vu is very real. Whether Deja Vu itself is or not, I am not sure. I lean toward thinking it might just be a mind burp. My point though is that those who say being “born-again” is not a valid experience, often are those who have not truly experienced it. They should not invalidate being “born-again” until they can invalidate the experience itself. And how can they invalidate being born-again, if they have never had the experience?

And before you cry out NO WAY, remember, we were like you were at a point in our lives. But of course, you always seem to forget this little tidbit.

Great for you. Of what relevance is it to others?

Bighouse—

Relevant enough for you to comment on 4 days later I guess.

Great for you. Of what relevance is it to others?

No one is trying to invalidate your “deja vu”, just try your best to refrain from making it the “absolute” truth.

“We could only make sense of the world when we let go of the need to believe.”

For me belief in a designer/creator makes perfect “sense” to me. I just dont have the need to quantify that belief. I love the Mystery, yet still trust my “sense” of connection.

With tears have many of us deconverts wrestled with our faith, struggled over the scriptures, crying out to God for answers, and all we get is silence and emptiness. We could only make sense of the world when we let go of the need to believe.

John T.— again I would mention “deja-vu”. Many people claim that they “experience” it. It will be listed as an experience that is “claimed” to be real by a multitude of people. Of course, to them the experience is very real, but the actual deja vu may not be real at all. But there are many who DON’T experience it at all. To them it is just a story people are making up about a supposed feeling they had about having been in a place before, when they really hadn’t. It is one thing to deny the actual deja vu—but it is another thing to call the experience of deja vu itself bogus just because one has never “experienced” it.

So, just because I have not experienced a feeling of deja vu does not make other’s experiences of it invalid. And if we cannot truly invalidate the experience they had, how can we completely invalidate deja vu itself? This is just an argument by the way—I have truly experienced deja vu—but feel it may just be a burp of the brain—the brain thinks it has seen the event before, when it really hasn’t–like a skip on a record.

I have experienced deja vu and have come to believe it is a brain burp—-but I have never been able to deny the experience of being born-again, because how it happened, and what happened afterwards are too real for me to reject.

But you are using your own “non-experience” as a reason to make invalid what others say are very true experiences. Yes–God says that everyone who seeks him will find him—but is he specific? Does he say everyone will find him in 3 days, or 3 weeks, or 3 years? Some have extraordinary emotional experiences, while others feel almost nothing. If we make feelings the gauge for “finding him” we will always fall short, as others have some glowing tale of their conversion experience. Matthew 7 says (and the Greek has an on-going sense to it) ltierally “he who keeps seeking shall find, and to him who keeps knocking it will be opened, and to him that keeps asking it shall be given”. Do we really believe? Is God testing that “professed” faith? He alone can see the hearts. Does giving up and renouncing our faith show we never really had it, even though we GENUINELY professed it? I know I am beating a dead horse here, but I am always led to ask that same question.

Cooper, the thing is that its not meaningless for you but it is for the people who dont experience it. But the thing is you can bring no actually tangible evidence that your experience was real, other than to you. This is true of every “spiritual” experience of people, so with that said you cant prove your point because theres no evidence that would be accepted in court, so why would any Logical person believe it?