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	<title>Comments on: The Psychology of Apologetics &#8211; Introduction</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/</link>
	<description>Resources for skeptical, de-converting, or former Christians......</description>
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		<title>By: The Psychology of Apologetics: A de-conversion series &#124; Physicist Stew</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-29303</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Psychology of Apologetics: A de-conversion series &#124; Physicist Stew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-29303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the introduction, Richard talks about the goal of apologetics stating: Apologists often present themselves as just [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the introduction, Richard talks about the goal of apologetics stating: Apologists often present themselves as just [...]</p>
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		<title>By: bipolar2</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bipolar2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 18:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[** a culture of true believers **

The earliest xians certainly received benefits in the-here-and-now for their faith: group solidarity and ideological support, especially nurturing class hatred. (1Cor1:1-30)

Doubtless, xianity still has something to offer as it has for 2,000 years — but psychological comfort, decent burial of the dead, communal warmth, common action, pathways for employment, and opportunities for “martyrdom” are irrelevant to the truth of any hysterical claim made first by Paul or later writers of Jesus legends, whether accepted or not into xian orthodoxy.

Any member of any sect within islam, xianity, judaism, or zoroastrianism (the big-4 monotheisms) can cite his myths, cultic practices, and endlessly *circular* commentary to equal effect. Citing scripture in *defense* of itself is totally illogical.

What uplifts me, what comforts me, what I’m willing to die for . . . is no evidence whatsoever that any otherworldly belief is true or false. Such reasoning exemplifies ignoratio elenchi — lack of any logical connection between statements about anyone&#039;s psychological state and any religious claim. 

The monotheists&#039; magical texts are neither self-guaranteeing nor divinely inspired. They are propaganda.

biipolar2 ©2008]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>** a culture of true believers **</p>
<p>The earliest xians certainly received benefits in the-here-and-now for their faith: group solidarity and ideological support, especially nurturing class hatred. (1Cor1:1-30)</p>
<p>Doubtless, xianity still has something to offer as it has for 2,000 years — but psychological comfort, decent burial of the dead, communal warmth, common action, pathways for employment, and opportunities for “martyrdom” are irrelevant to the truth of any hysterical claim made first by Paul or later writers of Jesus legends, whether accepted or not into xian orthodoxy.</p>
<p>Any member of any sect within islam, xianity, judaism, or zoroastrianism (the big-4 monotheisms) can cite his myths, cultic practices, and endlessly *circular* commentary to equal effect. Citing scripture in *defense* of itself is totally illogical.</p>
<p>What uplifts me, what comforts me, what I’m willing to die for . . . is no evidence whatsoever that any otherworldly belief is true or false. Such reasoning exemplifies ignoratio elenchi — lack of any logical connection between statements about anyone&#8217;s psychological state and any religious claim. </p>
<p>The monotheists&#8217; magical texts are neither self-guaranteeing nor divinely inspired. They are propaganda.</p>
<p>biipolar2 ©2008</p>
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		<title>By: The Psychology of Apologetics: Sin &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28671</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Psychology of Apologetics: Sin &#171; de-conversion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 03:55:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28671</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 22, 2008   In this article I will continue our examination of Christian apologetics from a psychological perspective. Here, I wish to look at the concept of sin, so central to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 22, 2008   In this article I will continue our examination of Christian apologetics from a psychological perspective. Here, I wish to look at the concept of sin, so central to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Nerd</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28644</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Nerd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 18:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am so happy you are writing this!  I turned to apologetics when I was struggling as a teenager, in an effort to strengthen my faith.  That it did, but it was only temporary as I began to understand what you explained - that it is in fact highly emotional and very unapologetic.  I have never been able to sort out just why it is so flawed as a logical tool, and I look forward to what you have to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am so happy you are writing this!  I turned to apologetics when I was struggling as a teenager, in an effort to strengthen my faith.  That it did, but it was only temporary as I began to understand what you explained &#8211; that it is in fact highly emotional and very unapologetic.  I have never been able to sort out just why it is so flawed as a logical tool, and I look forward to what you have to say.</p>
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		<title>By: The Negative Wears the Trousers: Fear of Hell and Salvation &#171; orDover</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Negative Wears the Trousers: Fear of Hell and Salvation &#171; orDover]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:39:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] further reading on tis topic, an interesting series on The Psychology Apologetics can be found at [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] further reading on tis topic, an interesting series on The Psychology Apologetics can be found at [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28606</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28606</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Josh- Thats a fascinating encounter you had.  I hope my series can go some ways to undercutting this sort of approach.  I agree with you that, in the end, he&#039;s probably right, in that what he recommends probably *is* the most effective way to win converts.  The motives for conversion are, after all, emotional, and all the arguments that McDowell spends so much of his time on are very much post hoc rationalizations.

And let me draw your attention to the implications of his view, if you havent already noticed yourself.  

Too much ink gets spilled on those ratonal arguments and not enough attention has been given to the psychological pressures that these arguments have.  If there is indeed &quot;more than enough&quot; evidence and the Truth of Christianity is indeed just as clear as the summer sun (and many apologists do believe this) then why, indeed, isnt everyone a Christian?

When you start asserting no one could rationally disagree with you then what are you left with but the conclusion that everyone else is irrational?  In other words: if you dont agree with me, theres something wrong with you.  If my arugment dont convince you, its not because theyre not good arguments.  The problem is you.

Which is, of course, just what fundamentalism teaches: we are blinded by sin.  But this division of the world into dense, prideful, wicked people and honest, clear-headed ones is typical of the black and white thinking that I will argue is central to fundamentalist psychology. 

But more on that later.  Thanks for reading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Josh- Thats a fascinating encounter you had.  I hope my series can go some ways to undercutting this sort of approach.  I agree with you that, in the end, he&#8217;s probably right, in that what he recommends probably *is* the most effective way to win converts.  The motives for conversion are, after all, emotional, and all the arguments that McDowell spends so much of his time on are very much post hoc rationalizations.</p>
<p>And let me draw your attention to the implications of his view, if you havent already noticed yourself.  </p>
<p>Too much ink gets spilled on those ratonal arguments and not enough attention has been given to the psychological pressures that these arguments have.  If there is indeed &#8220;more than enough&#8221; evidence and the Truth of Christianity is indeed just as clear as the summer sun (and many apologists do believe this) then why, indeed, isnt everyone a Christian?</p>
<p>When you start asserting no one could rationally disagree with you then what are you left with but the conclusion that everyone else is irrational?  In other words: if you dont agree with me, theres something wrong with you.  If my arugment dont convince you, its not because theyre not good arguments.  The problem is you.</p>
<p>Which is, of course, just what fundamentalism teaches: we are blinded by sin.  But this division of the world into dense, prideful, wicked people and honest, clear-headed ones is typical of the black and white thinking that I will argue is central to fundamentalist psychology. </p>
<p>But more on that later.  Thanks for reading.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This will be an absolutely brilliant series. This last semester when I was at Moody Bible Institute they had Josh McDowell give a speech. I was dealing strongly with doubts about the faith and listening to him was somewhat of a last ditch effort - I thought for sure he would rebound my faith.

Not at all.

His talk was basically on how nobody comes to the Christian faith because of arguments. He told us all that there is &quot;more than enough&quot; evidence for the faith so it was beyond him why anyone would reject it - unless they were blinded or did not trust Christians.

His ultimate appeal was that Christians needed to stop convincing people and instead be their friends so that they can build trust and then slowly ease them into the faith.

What a load of crap. I can just remember all the times where I was &quot;friends&quot; with non-believers only because I wanted to witness to them. This form of psychological manipulation is only designed to keep people from thinking too seriously about anything. And it - sadly - works.

I only wish an atheist had come along much sooner and pointed out the fallacies in this sort of argument.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be an absolutely brilliant series. This last semester when I was at Moody Bible Institute they had Josh McDowell give a speech. I was dealing strongly with doubts about the faith and listening to him was somewhat of a last ditch effort &#8211; I thought for sure he would rebound my faith.</p>
<p>Not at all.</p>
<p>His talk was basically on how nobody comes to the Christian faith because of arguments. He told us all that there is &#8220;more than enough&#8221; evidence for the faith so it was beyond him why anyone would reject it &#8211; unless they were blinded or did not trust Christians.</p>
<p>His ultimate appeal was that Christians needed to stop convincing people and instead be their friends so that they can build trust and then slowly ease them into the faith.</p>
<p>What a load of crap. I can just remember all the times where I was &#8220;friends&#8221; with non-believers only because I wanted to witness to them. This form of psychological manipulation is only designed to keep people from thinking too seriously about anything. And it &#8211; sadly &#8211; works.</p>
<p>I only wish an atheist had come along much sooner and pointed out the fallacies in this sort of argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28568</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 02:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28568</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[VorJack-
Yes, Ive read that essay many times and it has been extremely useful to me. What I have in mind here is quite similar to Price&#039;s approach, although I hope to greatly expand on his core idea, especially as mentioned in his last paragraph.  I.e., that in understanding what psychological needs are being met by this belief system, we can better understand how to deal with it.

I agree with Price that fear is a motivator for fundamentalist beleif systems.  Im less keen on positing laziness as explanatory, as he does, mainly because that comes very close to making belief a matter of morality (or at least character), which I think is almost always a mistake.  Fundamentalists are not some strange alien species.  They are human beings, like us, and work according to the same psychological rules we do.  They have the same sorts of anxieties and vulnerabilities as anyone, and have stumbled upon a belief system which serves to domesticate those fears -- albeit at a cost, which I hope to elaborate on.

Anyway, I hope my series will prove useful, as Price&#039;s has to me.  Thanks for your comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>VorJack-<br />
Yes, Ive read that essay many times and it has been extremely useful to me. What I have in mind here is quite similar to Price&#8217;s approach, although I hope to greatly expand on his core idea, especially as mentioned in his last paragraph.  I.e., that in understanding what psychological needs are being met by this belief system, we can better understand how to deal with it.</p>
<p>I agree with Price that fear is a motivator for fundamentalist beleif systems.  Im less keen on positing laziness as explanatory, as he does, mainly because that comes very close to making belief a matter of morality (or at least character), which I think is almost always a mistake.  Fundamentalists are not some strange alien species.  They are human beings, like us, and work according to the same psychological rules we do.  They have the same sorts of anxieties and vulnerabilities as anyone, and have stumbled upon a belief system which serves to domesticate those fears &#8212; albeit at a cost, which I hope to elaborate on.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope my series will prove useful, as Price&#8217;s has to me.  Thanks for your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: VorJack</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28566</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[VorJack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Robert M. Price has written a bit about the topic.  You might be interested in his essay &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_biblicism.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Psychology of Biblicism&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert M. Price has written a bit about the topic.  You might be interested in his essay <a href="http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_biblicism.htm" rel="nofollow">The Psychology of Biblicism</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/17/the-psychology-of-apologetics-introduction/#comment-28563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Luke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2078#comment-28563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[as a current seminarian and future Christian pastor, i agree with this article 100%. apologetics starts with an answer (Tradition) and then reverse engineers the bible to make it fit. it should have no business being incorporated into the future of the Church.

ex: our answer is 4! let&#039;s see how we got there... Tradition states that it&#039;s 2+2 so that&#039;s it and nothing else. 3+1? you heretic! 6-2?! blasphemy! 17/68?!?!?! you unbeliever, i&#039;m stoning you right now!

rawk out!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>as a current seminarian and future Christian pastor, i agree with this article 100%. apologetics starts with an answer (Tradition) and then reverse engineers the bible to make it fit. it should have no business being incorporated into the future of the Church.</p>
<p>ex: our answer is 4! let&#8217;s see how we got there&#8230; Tradition states that it&#8217;s 2+2 so that&#8217;s it and nothing else. 3+1? you heretic! 6-2?! blasphemy! 17/68?!?!?! you unbeliever, i&#8217;m stoning you right now!</p>
<p>rawk out!</p>
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