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	<title>Comments on: The Psychology of Apologetics: Rebellion</title>
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	<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/</link>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-29061</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 04:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Or even when atheists use good arguments!  In fact, if you ever disagree with Christian conclusions, it is often attributed to sin.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or even when atheists use good arguments!  In fact, if you ever disagree with Christian conclusions, it is often attributed to sin.</p>
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		<title>By: J. J. Ramsey</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-29054</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. J. Ramsey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 00:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-29054</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Human beings are fallen creatures, according to Christians.  Not only does that make us unable to live good lives on our own, some thinkers have even argued that sin impairs the very ability to reason.  This borders closely with the concept of total depravity.  In this context it is called the “noetic” effects of sin, noetic meaning “having to do with the intellect.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s another catch to the whole noetic effects of sin. When atheists use bad arguments, this can get used as an example of sin compromising reason. If you go to, for example, Tektonics.org, that&#039;s a common subtext.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Human beings are fallen creatures, according to Christians.  Not only does that make us unable to live good lives on our own, some thinkers have even argued that sin impairs the very ability to reason.  This borders closely with the concept of total depravity.  In this context it is called the “noetic” effects of sin, noetic meaning “having to do with the intellect.”</p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s another catch to the whole noetic effects of sin. When atheists use bad arguments, this can get used as an example of sin compromising reason. If you go to, for example, Tektonics.org, that&#8217;s a common subtext.</p>
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		<title>By: Delong TSway</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Delong TSway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The verse is Phillipians 4:5]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The verse is Phillipians 4:5</p>
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		<title>By: Delong TSway</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28841</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Delong TSway]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 05:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[interesting essay. However, not conclusive. Christianity is totally for reason. It just acknowledges that reason itself is not enough to be with God. You talk a lot about the paradoxes of Christianity. I am not an expert but I can tell you that no matter what you believe you are going to face paradoxes. I love my GOd, I submit to him because he loved me enough to help me when I was lonely and honestly fed up with mysel. I was not raised as christian and I relied a lot on my own reason and pride. I was pretty lonely most of the time and though I thought of myself so high I could understand that I had very very low self esteem. 

There is nothing wrong with self esteem, just remember who gave you the ability to have it. &quot;Do not be anxious about anything but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to GOd.&quot; When bad things happen we always ask why. Why not do the same for good things? DO we only pay attention to God when things do not happen the way we want them to? We want to address the cause of suffering. Why not address the cause of happiness? Why seek fault instead of worth? When you do that you will begin to appreciate God and people a lot more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting essay. However, not conclusive. Christianity is totally for reason. It just acknowledges that reason itself is not enough to be with God. You talk a lot about the paradoxes of Christianity. I am not an expert but I can tell you that no matter what you believe you are going to face paradoxes. I love my GOd, I submit to him because he loved me enough to help me when I was lonely and honestly fed up with mysel. I was not raised as christian and I relied a lot on my own reason and pride. I was pretty lonely most of the time and though I thought of myself so high I could understand that I had very very low self esteem. </p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with self esteem, just remember who gave you the ability to have it. &#8220;Do not be anxious about anything but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to GOd.&#8221; When bad things happen we always ask why. Why not do the same for good things? DO we only pay attention to God when things do not happen the way we want them to? We want to address the cause of suffering. Why not address the cause of happiness? Why seek fault instead of worth? When you do that you will begin to appreciate God and people a lot more.</p>
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		<title>By: bipolar2</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28746</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bipolar2]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28746</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[** Becoming-who-you-are requires skepticism and self-assertion **

The word ‘islam’ means submission. Obviously submission to the will of Allah, as prescribed in the five pillars of faith. The big-3 monotheisms are alike in dismissing an individual’s will -- “not my will but thy will done” as we’re shown in the poignant scene at Gethsemane in the NT. (But, the xian god-man is no hero.)

For the big-3 empire building monotheisms, self-assertion takes on the character not of honest questioning and personal growth, but of insubordination and rebellion. (Can’t be godly cannon fodder unless you obey orders, mister.)

&gt;&gt; One SicK danish strudel, to go!

With characteristic, combative verve, Kierkegaard condemns the doubter as insubordinate, a rebel against xian fideism:

“They would have us believe that objections against Christianity come from doubt. This is always a misunderstanding. Objections against Christianity come from insubordination, unwillingness to obey, rebellion against all authority. Therefore, they have been beating the air against the objectors, because they have fought intellectually [against] doubt, instead of fighting ethically [against] rebellion. . . .So it is not properly doubt but insubordination.” (Lowrie 122)

Thus, SK. Almost needless to say, but his rhetoric works equally “well” in the mouth of any fideist muslim or jew.

&gt;&gt; Got guilt? Well, why not, sinner?

Even attempting to leave a religious culture which demands ’subordination’ or ’submission’ to someone else’s interpretation of an alleged “will of god” adversely affects the psychological well-being of the “apostate.” Irrational anxiety feelings get induced. Guilt is the nonexistent elder brother of nonexistent “sin.”

Becoming-who-you-are or “individuation” (to use Jung’s terminology) is the goal of personal growth. It cannot occur without self-doubt or without doubting authority and authority figures. When you’ve made a “leap of faith” into hyper-religious space there is no return except by self-assertion, and doubt is just a form of it. You emulate not Jesus, but Odysseus. The hero labors, struggles, succeeds or dies trying; but throughout remains human.

&gt;&gt; Religious “commitment” is not a choice; it’s a moral cop-out

Irrational self-assertion characterizes our popular culture. Irrational fideism characterizes fundamentalism. One “commitment” to Christ and you drop into the womb of unknowing. “Rebirth” is a pale substitute for individuation.

Tolerance is that wide band of humane behavior, including rational self-assertion, lying between inhuman anarchy and inhuman puritanism. Trying to navigate there requires years of training and making a lot of very human mistakes.

bipolar2 © 2008]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>** Becoming-who-you-are requires skepticism and self-assertion **</p>
<p>The word ‘islam’ means submission. Obviously submission to the will of Allah, as prescribed in the five pillars of faith. The big-3 monotheisms are alike in dismissing an individual’s will &#8212; “not my will but thy will done” as we’re shown in the poignant scene at Gethsemane in the NT. (But, the xian god-man is no hero.)</p>
<p>For the big-3 empire building monotheisms, self-assertion takes on the character not of honest questioning and personal growth, but of insubordination and rebellion. (Can’t be godly cannon fodder unless you obey orders, mister.)</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; One SicK danish strudel, to go!</p>
<p>With characteristic, combative verve, Kierkegaard condemns the doubter as insubordinate, a rebel against xian fideism:</p>
<p>“They would have us believe that objections against Christianity come from doubt. This is always a misunderstanding. Objections against Christianity come from insubordination, unwillingness to obey, rebellion against all authority. Therefore, they have been beating the air against the objectors, because they have fought intellectually [against] doubt, instead of fighting ethically [against] rebellion. . . .So it is not properly doubt but insubordination.” (Lowrie 122)</p>
<p>Thus, SK. Almost needless to say, but his rhetoric works equally “well” in the mouth of any fideist muslim or jew.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Got guilt? Well, why not, sinner?</p>
<p>Even attempting to leave a religious culture which demands ’subordination’ or ’submission’ to someone else’s interpretation of an alleged “will of god” adversely affects the psychological well-being of the “apostate.” Irrational anxiety feelings get induced. Guilt is the nonexistent elder brother of nonexistent “sin.”</p>
<p>Becoming-who-you-are or “individuation” (to use Jung’s terminology) is the goal of personal growth. It cannot occur without self-doubt or without doubting authority and authority figures. When you’ve made a “leap of faith” into hyper-religious space there is no return except by self-assertion, and doubt is just a form of it. You emulate not Jesus, but Odysseus. The hero labors, struggles, succeeds or dies trying; but throughout remains human.</p>
<p>&gt;&gt; Religious “commitment” is not a choice; it’s a moral cop-out</p>
<p>Irrational self-assertion characterizes our popular culture. Irrational fideism characterizes fundamentalism. One “commitment” to Christ and you drop into the womb of unknowing. “Rebirth” is a pale substitute for individuation.</p>
<p>Tolerance is that wide band of humane behavior, including rational self-assertion, lying between inhuman anarchy and inhuman puritanism. Trying to navigate there requires years of training and making a lot of very human mistakes.</p>
<p>bipolar2 © 2008</p>
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		<title>By: gracesong815</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28745</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gracesong815]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 17:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28745</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m speechless! you have articulated my feelings so clearly!
It&#039;s sad that even the brightest and most intelligent among the Fundamentalist movement must resort to these paradoxes. I&#039;m not sure how they&#039;ve managed to live willingly and willfully in cognotive disonance for so long.
It still amazes me just how many Christians do not have a problem with the doctrine of hell. They talk of it like it&#039;s an uncomfortable topic, but nothing more. Hell has to exist because, as I was told recently by a Christian, &quot;Without Hell there can be no Heaven, and without wrath, there can be no grace.&quot;
Oh, btw, just the other day, I&#039;d had enough and renounced my belief in the God of the Bible. For moral and intellectual reasons, I can no longer believe that the God portrayed in the Bible is the loving Father who created me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m speechless! you have articulated my feelings so clearly!<br />
It&#8217;s sad that even the brightest and most intelligent among the Fundamentalist movement must resort to these paradoxes. I&#8217;m not sure how they&#8217;ve managed to live willingly and willfully in cognotive disonance for so long.<br />
It still amazes me just how many Christians do not have a problem with the doctrine of hell. They talk of it like it&#8217;s an uncomfortable topic, but nothing more. Hell has to exist because, as I was told recently by a Christian, &#8220;Without Hell there can be no Heaven, and without wrath, there can be no grace.&#8221;<br />
Oh, btw, just the other day, I&#8217;d had enough and renounced my belief in the God of the Bible. For moral and intellectual reasons, I can no longer believe that the God portrayed in the Bible is the loving Father who created me.</p>
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		<title>By: The Nerd</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28700</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Nerd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28700</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well written!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well written!</p>
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		<title>By: The Psychology of Apologetics: Sin &#171; de-conversion</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28672</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Psychology of Apologetics: Sin &#171; de-conversion]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 03:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28672</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] have already laid out in part two of this series the paradox of submission of the will – i.e., that one must assert the will in order to deny it [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have already laid out in part two of this series the paradox of submission of the will – i.e., that one must assert the will in order to deny it [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28650</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oops, that last post was me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, that last post was me.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://de-conversion.com/2008/10/19/the-psychology-of-apologetics-rebellion/#comment-28645</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agnosticatheism.wordpress.com/?p=2099#comment-28645</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Derek- Yes!  That is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.  This is what apologetcis and fundamentalist theology do to you.  I find them to be sprinkled with these sorts of paradoxes -- e.g., that to avoid &quot;self esteem&quot; (as pride) is a good thing -- but dont start feeling pleased with your success!  You also, as I mentioned in my post, must assert the will in order to submit it.  There is another one coming in my next post.

Bottom line: fundamentalism tries to dictate what you are supposed to *feel*, what your motives should be.  But emotions are not under voluntary control.  So we are set up to fail.

Makes me think of the line from that old movie Wargames:  &quot;The only way to win is not to play.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek- Yes!  That is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about.  This is what apologetcis and fundamentalist theology do to you.  I find them to be sprinkled with these sorts of paradoxes &#8212; e.g., that to avoid &#8220;self esteem&#8221; (as pride) is a good thing &#8212; but dont start feeling pleased with your success!  You also, as I mentioned in my post, must assert the will in order to submit it.  There is another one coming in my next post.</p>
<p>Bottom line: fundamentalism tries to dictate what you are supposed to *feel*, what your motives should be.  But emotions are not under voluntary control.  So we are set up to fail.</p>
<p>Makes me think of the line from that old movie Wargames:  &#8220;The only way to win is not to play.&#8221;</p>
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