I have questions as to whether human beings can exist in a healthy way outside of of a community of like-minded people. This isn’t so much a crutch as it is a basic human need to be one of the “tribe”.

Again, the critique here is no whether a community of non-believers is healthy. We need to be around like-minded people (just as much as we need to be around people who differ from us as well). The critique, rather, is whether it is harmful to concentrate so much energy on being non-believers or not. It is one thing to get together to discuss being humanists or ethical secularists and finding common philosophies – it is quite another to focus on the negative aspects of our former beliefs.

Are we ex-Christians sulking about, fooling themselves that we are providing positive reinforcements for other non-believers and soon-to-be non-believers. Or is it what we say it is – a resource for former and skeptical religionists? Perhaps health and instruction is not part of what we do. Perhaps we are merely deconstructers, allowing the faithless to flounder in their own philosophies of non-belief. Is it possible for this sort of community to act as just another crutch, another religious-like entity that cannot think beyond itself?

I have questions as to whether human beings can exist in a healthy way outside of of a community of like-minded people. This isn’t so much a crutch as it is a basic human need to be one of the “tribe”. Of course, this can go overboard as is the case in many Christian churches. When the tribe is held together by irrational,or in some cases even paranoid idealogies, it can sometime take extraordinary effort on the part of an individual to break free of the emotional and idealogical holds of the tribe. While I used reason and rationality to initially break through, the emotional and connectional side did not come so easily. Even today, the christian community I continue to associate with is emotionally very seductive, even though my mind and intellect have made a complete break. There’s a reason that Christians use the metaphor of “asking Jesus into your heart”.

I really think these forums are helpful for people who are bridging into a healthier, rational world view. It provides some of the tribal connection, but I don’t think it can ultimately substitute for real human (including an emotional) interaction (community) that we need as human beings.

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“I f [God} has definitions of things that are radically different from our own, he might have a different definition of lots of other things. He might have his own definitions of such things as eternal reward, or eternal life. Your supposed eternal life in heaven might just be a year, or it could be a thousand years of torture. God could just say he has a definition of reward that includes excruciating torture as part of the definition.”

Oh boy! Your “good” god might give you temporary life and eternal unpleasantness (by his definitions). And you (who accept that he is “good” even when nasty shit happens to even his most devout followers) may be in for more nasty surprises in the next life.

I can’t get those five minutes back for you, but here’s a site that starts from that tract, then continues with a response:

http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/brain.htm

And here’s a similar Jack Chick tract, and response:

http://www.facts4u.com/OffSite_Stored_Pages/wyd_files/wyd.htm

These could be helpful if/when you run across this sort of story again.

theist, many here would be happy to respond to that tract in a respectable and systematic matter, but I have a feeling that your fly-by isn’t worth a grain of salt. You copy and pasted a twenty-year old tract (at least, I don’t know where or when it actually comes from) without engaging in the article at all.

Jesus would be proud of you.

Professor : You are a Christian, aren’t you, son ?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor : So you Believe in GOD ?
Student : Absolutely, sir.
Professor : Is GOD Good ?
Student : Sure.
Professor : Is GOD ALL – POWERFUL ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : My Brother died of Cancer even though he Prayed to GOD to Heal him.
Most of us would attempt to Help Others who are ill.
But GOD didn’t.
How is this GOD Good then ? Hmm ?

( Student is silent )

Professor : You can’t answer, can you ?
Let’s start again, Young Fella.
Is GOD Good ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Is Satan good ?
Student : No.
Professor : Where does Satan come from ?
Student : From . . . GOD . . .
Professor : That’s right.
Tell me son, is there evil in this World ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : Evil is everywhere, isn’t it ?
And GOD did make Everything. Correct ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : So who created evil ?

( Student does not answer )

Professor : Is there Sickness ? Immorality ? Hatred ? Ugliness ?
All these terrible things exist in the World, don’t they ?
Student : Yes, sir.
Professor : So, who Created them ?

( Student has no answer )

Professor : Science says you have 5 Senses you use to Identify and Observe the World around you.
Tell me, son . . . Have you ever Seen GOD ?
Student : No, sir.
Professor : Tell us if you have ever Heard your GOD ?
Student : No , sir.
Professor : Have you ever Felt your GOD , Tasted your GOD , Smelt your GOD ?
Have you ever had any Sensory Perception of GOD for that matter ?
Student : No, sir. I’m afraid I haven’t.
Professor : Yet you still Believe in HIM ?
Student : Yes.
Professor : According to Empirical, Testable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says your GOD doesn’t exist.
What do you say to that, son ?
Student : Nothing. I only have my Faith .
Professor : Yes. Faith . And that is the Problem Science has.
Student : Professor, is there such a thing as Heat ?
Professor : Yes.
Student : And is there such a thing as Cold ?
Professor : Yes.
Student : No sir. There isn’t.

( The Lecture Theatre becomes very quiet with this turn of events )

Student : Sir, you can have Lots of Heat, even More Heat, Superheat, Mega Heat, White Heat,
a Little Heat or No Heat.
But we don’t have anything called Cold.
We can hit 458 Degrees below Zero which is No Heat, but we can’t go any further after that.
There is no such thing as Cold.
Cold is only a Word we use to describe the Absence of Heat.
We cannot Measure Cold.
Heat is Energy.
Cold is Not the Opposite of Heat, sir, just the Absence of it.

( There is Pin – Drop Silence in the Lecture Theatre )

Student : What about Darkness, Professor ? Is there such a thing as Darkness ?
Professor : Yes. What is Night if there isn’t Darkness ?
Student : You’re wrong again, sir.
Darkness is the Absence of Something.
You can have Low Light, Normal Light , Bright Light, Flashing Light . . .
But if you have No Light Constantly, you have Nothing and it’s called Darkness, isn’t it ?
In reality, Darkness isn’t.
If it is, were you would be able to make Darkness Darker, wouldn’t you ?
Professor : So what is the point you are making, Young Man ?
Student : Sir, my point is your Philosophical Premise is Flawed.
Professor : Flawed ? Can you explain how ?
Student : Sir, you are working on the Premise of Duality.
You argue there is Life and then there is Death, a Good GOD and a Bad GOD .
You are viewing the Concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, Science can’t even explain a Thought.
It uses Electricity and Magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one.
To view Death as the Opposite of Life is to be ignorant of the fact that
Death cannot exist as a Substantive Thing.
Death is Not the Opposite of Life : just the Absence of it.
Now tell me, Professor, do you Teach your Students that they Evolved from a Monkey ?
Professor : If you are referring to the Natural Evolutionary Process, yes, of course, I do.
Student : Have you ever observed Evolution with your own eyes, sir ?

( The Professor shakes his head with a Smile, beginning to realize where the Argument is going )

Student : Since no one has ever observed the Process of Evolution at work and
cannot even prove that this Process is an On – Going Endeavor,
are you not Teaching your Opinion, sir ?
Are you not a Scientist but a Preacher ?

( The Class is in Uproar )

Student : Is there anyone in the Class who has ever Seen the Professor’s Brain ?

( The Class breaks out into Laughter )

Student : Is there anyone here who has ever Heard the Professor’s Brain, Felt it, Touched or Smelt it ? . . ..
No one appears to have done so.
So, according to the Established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that
you have No Brain, sir.
With all due respect, sir, how do we then Trust your Lectures, sir ?

( The Room is Silent. The Professor stares at the Student, his face unfathomable )

Professor : I guess you’ll have to take them on Faith , son.
Student : That is it sir . . .
the Link between Man & GOD is FAITH.
That is all that Keeps Things Moving & Alive.

NB:
I believe you have enjoyed the Conversation . . . and if so . . .
you’ll probably want your Friends / Colleagues to enjoy the same . . . won’t you ? . . .
Forward them to Increase their Knowledge . . . or FAITH