Yes, but my point was that, in this post, Josh made it really clear that he already understands the gospel message.

I meant not to offend those who “know this better than I do…” (an assured presumption indeed). However, I can see where you are coming from now, and again, sorry to displease.

I don’t really enjoy being misquoted. I never said we know this “better” than you, I said that we know it as well as you.

As for your proof, I’m not going to pick it apart piece by piece, but just point out that it all basically boils down to, “I look at the physical world and I seem to see design.” That isn’t any truth or proof. It’s an assumption, and even one based on some false concepts. I’ll just take one as an example: the location of the earth. When I was a Christian I heard all the time about the “specialness” of earth’s placement, that if it was just a bit closer or just a bit further away from the sun, life would not be sustainable, and that it was unique in the solar system. But the fact of the matter is that there are several other earth-like planets that we know of in the universe, and surely many more that we don’t know of. There are even planets in our own solar system which at an earlier era could have, and might have, supported life (Mars and Venus). The idea that earth is “fined tuned” for life is largely an illusion resulting from a lack of information (and that same principle applies to many of the “design” phenomena seen in nature). Not to mention the fact that, even if earth was in a slightly different location, it could still support life. Organisms can thrive in harsh environments. We even have some that live in volcanos and in the massive pressure of the deep ocean So even if the earth was far closer to the sun an much hotter, life could thrive. Adding to that is the fact that while the earth might seem primed for life right now (at least warm-blooded mammalian life), it won’t always be that way, and it hasn’t always been that way.

Douglas Adams summed this up when he wrote:
“…imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.”

I do not particularly enjoy having my life on display – though I suppose I kind of walked into that by responding, huh?
Okay… and answer.

(First off… If you would like to pick apart what I will say next, that is fine, but if you would actually like to have a conversation, please feel free to e-mail me (ya-man@juno.com). It is not an email I use often anymore, but I will check it intermittantly now – and please say in the subject line the purpose – so I don’t accidently delete it as an ad or spam.)

What truth to I base my faith on? In the way most things work mathematically and physically (the constant of light, that gravity works just right – not too large a force not too small, that the Earth is placed at the correct location to sustain life on this planet, that there does seem to be a correct formation of the human brain such that human beings can not only think and reason, but communicate and have higher order processing – such that can be seen in other species, but not to the same level), I believe that there is some deity that ordered everything if not still, at least at first.

Now, I am not a scientist, a mathematician, or a theologian, so I do not claim to have any expertise on the matter, though I have studied to a point Calculus, Physics, Chemistry, and Biology (and a father who is a Geophysicist – I’ve heard much of what is to be said from hard sciences), and that is my conclusion (again, nothing groundbreaking).
There is some order (though yes, there is also entropy:), therefore I believe some force or something can order it. Kind of a Cogito, Ergo Sum-deal, to borrow a little from Descartes.

From the (albeit brief, I still have more ‘research’ to do) studies I have done on other religions, as well as from visiting various religious sites (mosques, temples, congregations, etc), the faith following Jesus of Nazareth has convinced me (though yes, I have bias from my rearing — I would venture to state that noone is completely without bias.)
What is faith? Often defined as believing in what we do not see… I cannot concisely define what empirical evidence I base all of my faith on.
What is truth? That is what I am searching for daily – as we all are, though we all believe we find it in different places.

I’m sorry if that may be unsatisfactory – I fear I have already taken up enough room on this blog, and so we can either meet or exchange notes… but that is what my ‘empirical’ evidence for my faith is. Though the meaning of empirical is that it can be repeatably tested — and I know not how to scientifically “test” reasons for faith or lack thereof (there is not really anything I can narrow down to prove causation, nor isolate and control) – other than seeing if it lasts, I suppose.

It isn’t wrong that you “mentioned” your faith. We have several Christian commentors, and even sometimes post written by Christians as guest contributors. It’s just that the view you present is one that we all know intimately well. It isn’t new. And you would have known that if you would have take a second to look around and figure out who you are talking to. You could have clicked the links next to the big red exclamation point.

Interestingly, you never answered my original question: what truth (empirical, evidence-based truth) do you base your faith on?

I did not mean to present a “sinner’s prayer”, in fact, I always try to do the opposite – I am not keen on a “sinner’s prayer”… It’s a bummer how often words can be misleading.

I suppose I should be sorry that I mentioned my faith — I simply wanted to present the view from the other side that is often lacking even within the church. I will know better next time, and try to respond or not respond accordingly.

Feeling should never outweigh truth

I’d like to know on what truth you base your faith. And when I say “truth”I mean something verifiable and empirical, open to multiple tests.

But I for one cannot believe that this short life is IT – there is too much pain and devastation, war and lies, fractions and deceit – even within the church of all places. How ridiculous and tear-warranting.

So, let me get this straight. I know I’m doing a little bit of reading between the lines here, but in the first part of your comment you say to rely on truth, not emotions, but this bit seems like nothing but an emotional appeal. You feel like there must be an afterlife because of what you see. What proof do you have of that? Or is in, after all, a faith based on emotion?

I am sorry that I did not express myself well.
This world does have meaning, and this life does hold truth and beauty, and yes, even wonder.

I treasure these days, and years that I am allowed to have — if I did not, I would not be getting my bachelors in Psychology with hope to go on to get a Masters in Social Work — there would be no point, if I were simply a “Warm-Up for some other world”… I’m sorry that that is what you heard me saying – I meant instead (though again, sorry that it came badly):
These years can hold the beauty of love, truth, hope, and joy, though they are sprinkled with their opposite. I live these days, seeking to rid the oppression, to create and alternate society in which people find love truth hope and joy, instead of hate, lies, despair, and pained tears.
I am confident that this society will come to its fulfillment in the Renewed Heavens and Earth.

Yes, I still say, this life is short, we can seek its best, but yes, it is also a pity if the majority of us (over 50% will get Alzheimers if we live past 70-80).
It is pitiable perhaps not for those who live in comfort of family or wealth, but definitely for those who live in poverty and loss, like little Dani – a five year old boy in Mexico, whose Mother left him and his siblings to a drunken father and a sexually abusing uncle, who now after being found, will live out the rest of their childhood and youth at an orphanage (where yes, they will get food and shelter, though their lives and certainly their dreams are still troubled by their past, and not fully ministered to by their present.)
Yes, years like these are indeed pitiable if there is no hope of something better, something fulfilled, the way things were meant to be.

To Ubi Dubuim, “so as a non-theist I can find meaning by fighting against that, working to make the world a better place, and seeking out the beauty that the world has to offer.”
I think that is wonderful. Continue on!
Good can be pursued in our own power, but I believe that more good can be pursued by a group, a people who are united in love, empowered by a force that aids them when they grow weary, and who spur each other on to the same goal – social justice, peace, and love.
This is what I see in the Gospel, the true Gospel of Jesus, of the Bible, and of the early church — not the 5 step ‘gospel’ followed by ‘the prayer’. In a second post, I will include what this Gospel is – evident in Jesus’ teachings, Jewish thought, and early Christian practice.

Of course faith has an element of emotion to it, just as logic does. We live in a world of duality, so they are always in constant flux. Maybe thats the only” real truth” out there. Heres a good one for you.

“Life is like surfing, sometimes youre riding the wave, sometimes youre crashing into shore, most times youre paddling for another wave.”