Thank you very much for your responses. Being on similar views feels good..

About morality:

I think from a survival perspective there are two levels of resources:

One is where resources are abundant and readily available for everyone for survival. At this level, you can survive easily, and then hostile actions are not needed towards others to compete for a survival level of resources. You can easily be a contributor and follow contribution contracts because you don’t have the pressure of struggling to fulfill your basic needs.

Sadly, when survival level of resources are either inadequate or made inaccessible by the state of affairs, violence or assholeness is triggered. Put 10 people in a room with the food of 2 and see what happens.

What is survival level of resources? I think the resources that allows the organism to survive, reproduce and live ‘reasonably’ pain free.

Why am I exploring morality? Because I have remaining guilt tendencies inside me. Residues of religious thinking. I am just trying to determine my place in the altruism-selfishness scale. I could be a nasty asshole, but I don’t want to. I could try to be a Mother Theresa, but I don’t want to. When should I act for those in Africa? Or should I be a ‘selfish’ corporation owner?

I think self acceptance is directly related with one’s beliefs. If one does not allow himself to be succesful and happy, he can’t.

About purpose and meaning:

I agree that they are human made, constructs of the rational mind. But I also believe that every living organism acts in a purposeful manner. It tries to survive and thrive. Life, the combination of all species, as a whole tries to survive and thrive. What it does it does, but what it does ‘looks purposeful’. There is a drive inside us that we can’t deny that pushes us to conform with this apparent purpose.

Well, should we go to Africa to raise the people there out of poverty? Or should we commit ourselves to the ruthless process of capitalist selection, where organizations and doctrines (the new DNAs) compete and the single human gradually loses its influence and impact, ignoring the Africans?

Well I think the world is going towards a great hierarchy of power. It is already in a state of a great hierarchy of power. But the hierachy will become deeper and wider(at the bottom). Power is accumulating in fewer and fewer entities. Human has domesticated animals, and human is domesticating humans.

Where we will place ourselves within this is really a matter of decision. We will decide on our purpose, and the meaning we base it on. No rationally knowable super beings as judges or guides. Intriguing.

What is so weird about this is that the Christianity I knew – by nature – encouraged people to live some sort of miserable life. If you were not daily taking up your cross and following Him, you were not worthy.

Ironic, now that I think about it, that this eventually lead to everyone feeling like they had to be an asshole at some point::

* Leaving families / wives / children for the sake of the call
* Being a pain-in-the-ass proselytizer
* Provoking arguments to share the “truth”
* Seeking to “get out of ones comfort zone” – which normally meant doing awkward things that make other people feel uncomfortable
* Standing up in front of classrooms proclaiming the “truth” of creation
* Inventing situations where your faith is “under attack” so that you can stand up for it and be persecuted – which normally comes off as just looking like an asshole.
* Judging others as not saved or less spiritual because this meant standing up for Jesus.

Etc. etc.

It’s so much easier to be a nice Christian boy once you leave the faith.

You’ve gotten lots of good responses. We all had to find a new way to view the world end existence and purpose after de-conversion. In the end I think what we all found was that purpose is defined, and even created, by us. It isn’t a romantic, universal, big ‘n’ beautiful way to view it, but it is realistic.

Isn’t it early to declare that no God exists only because of the reason that we fail to prove his existance using reason?

None one here came to their conclusion quickly or lightly. We spent a lot of time struggling with it. In the end though, we all have a God we are thinking of (BibleGod, KoranGod, etc.) and that God has certain characteristics. If you can find NO evidence of any being with those characteristics, you must either A) be honest and accept that the deity doesn’t exist or B) be dishonest and start making up all kinds of excuses and lame-ass apologetics. We all chose A). So did you. Good for you.

Then what kind of morality should we follow?

You want to live a happy, healthy life right? You’d like to suffer a minimum of sickness, suffering, unmet need, anguish, etc right? So what is the best way to accomplish that? Do to others as you’d would like to be done to. Help others to have the very things you want in life and they will be willing to help you toward the same.
If you’d like a miserable life, then be mean to others, rob them, hurt them, and generally be an asshole.

In some circles, it’s called “enlightened self-interest”. Label it what you will; it works pretty well.

Great posts, Joshua and Ubi. I think we are all pretty close to being on the same page.

Hang in there, Slimar! A wonderful world awaits!

Regarding morality, since I do not think there is a god, where did any of our morality originally come from? My answer is that we humans have developed it ourselves over time. We are social animals, each dependent on others for survival, and we have kept those principles which allow us to live in harmony as a community.

So, look to all the different cultures of our world for what ethical precepts we all tend to share. We share them because they work. Think them through, and if they make sense to you, then adopt them into your own ethical code. The “not killing people when you can avoid it” rule is good, and the “treat others as you would like to be treated” is a keeper. Charity to the poor is great, as long as it does not have religious requirements attached. But the “don’t eat pork” or “pray every day” or “women must cover their hair” rules do nothing to strengthen our society, or protect anyone from harm. They’re just about obedience and tribal identification. You can dump rules like that with a clear conscience.

With no “sky-daddy” to magically forgive us, we become responsible for the consequences of our actions, and must clean up our own messes. My experience is that people who have lost faith tend to eventually become more ethical, because they had to work out their values for themselves instead of just accepting what they were told their values should be. You are still the same basic person you were before you realized that God was not real. If you were basically moral before, then you are no less so now. Trust yourself and rely on your common sense.

Oh, btw: be prepared for some nice epiphanies outside the faith Don’t give up, man! Most of those “spiritual” experiences come back

Joe,

For a long time I struggled with the concept as to why the word why even exists. I mean, doesn’t the very existence of the word why imply that purpose does exist?

Well of course.

But doesn’t that imply there is some sort of ultimate purpose to the universe?

Maybe. I personally wouldn’t mind if there was, but I think it is a little arrogant – and ignoring of history – to claim one understands that purpose.

Has a Being of some sort ascribed a purpose to the universe? If so, what?

Now, here is the trick! Watch closely:

Why did this being ascribe a purpose to the universe?

You see it?

There is absolutely no reason why a perfectly perfect being would need to ascribe a purpose to anything at all.

Not only this, but think about it: purpose can only be ascribed to things that exist inside of time. You cannot ascribe a purpose to something unless it is to fulfill something later – which requires the existence of time.

Therefore, God has no purpose.

Except, except! Think about it Joe!

God does have a purpose. Right?

I mean, doesn’t God save us?

But who is the focus here?

Us.

And who is ascribing a purpose to God?

Us.

So God does have a purpose: to serve and save us.

God was invented by man to serve and save us. He is our bitch, so to speak.

But in the same way that men invent wooden idols and claim humans are actually to serve the idol to save themselves from calamity: so men invented an invisible God in the sky who we must serve to save ourselves from calamity (hell, death, curses, etc.)

What’s the difference – in concept?

The faith provided an ultimate answer to everything: God. In a way, it provided a foundation even if this universe were to disappear. It also provided an ultimate answer to the question “why”: God. It’s all about God. So whenever a question was encountered that a human could not answer with the tools at his disposal, he could fill it with God. God knows. He knows. And He is in control. So no matter what, we have to trust He has a plan.

Subtract God and what do you have? A weird period where it almost feels as if nothing should exist because the very foundation of everything has been removed. Everything feels drab and gray and meaningless.

What helped me out so much was that my experience as a Christian was for so long such a living hell that even the drabness of leaving was like finding light at the end of a tunnel. I did experience that feeling of a lack of meaning, but I discovered something that helped out immensely.

If hope, peace, and meaning are possible inside the faith when God does not exist, then hope, peace, and meaning are possible outside the faith when God does not exist. We just have to find the tools that bring about these things. Does that make sense?

One tool that can bring it about is religion. But when you start to break religion into its components, you begin to find some interesting things…

Back to the original point: God fills all holes and gives everything a reason. So we can be at peace that even if it does not end up in our favor – God has a reason!

But think about it! You don’t need God for there to be a reason (purpose) for everything.

Ascribing purpose is something humans do. We consider what a thing does and what caused that thing and then we ascribe a purpose to it. Rocks don’t “do” anything and they aren’t “caused” by anything per se, so they don’t have a “purpose”.

Unless you shape a rock into a stone for a building. Then suddenly a rock has a purpose.

So who gave that rock a purpose? A human.

Now think about it a little further. If you get a job, you do so for a purpose: to make money. Who ascribed a purpose to the job? You did. And you can make the most of that purpose that you want.

Now think even further. You didn’t choose to be alive, you are alive because you found yourself alive. So rather than thinking of life as an accident, think of it as a surprise.

Not accident: surprise. Like discovering that where there should be nothing, suddenly you find a ton of potential.

Now go into your life considering the potential of what you could do or become. And no matter how far into your life you are: you can always find some potential, some reason to keep living.

One more thing: the only thing that changed in life for you was your perspective. God did not cease to exist. You were just set free from a belief that was acting like a catalyst to a certain form of happiness. Now, like an addict who has had his drug removed, you will go through a period where the real world will seem extremely bleak. This is your mind reorienting itself to reality.

Now just learn how to change your perspective. All the things you learned in religion about meditation or focusing your mind on particular things: take those skills and learn to apply them on your own. The results are the same: happiness, peace, meaning, etc.

As for your question about God, here is how I look at it: any deity who can be understood is an invention of man and not worthy of my attention. Therefore all theisms are bunk. Therefore I am an a-theist. However, this does not mean that a deity does not exist: just that it would be foolish to claim to understand It. After all, if It is completely transcendent to this universe, any statement we make about it is to simply anthropomorphize it – to bring it down and make it in our image.

And what is animism? It is ascribing human characteristics (will, motive, intent) to non-human items (rocks, trees, grass, wind, storms, etc.)

What is theism? It is animism ascribed to the universe.

What is north of the north pole (as Dan Barker likes to ask): it is a silly question. What happened before time? That is a silly question too.

I really do hope this helps you out.

But after you solve the how, when, where and what, isn’t the “why” really the ultimate question? I’m not really sure if an atheist scientist could settle for how, when, where and what and stop there. Even a scientist wants to know why don’t they?

Perhaps I’m wrong—just posing the question.

Personally, I’m okay with that.

Very candid post. That “why” you speak of is very important. We as humans ask “why” about a lot of things. But some are quite comfortable saying there really is no reason we are here—no intelligence behind it at all. They can attempt to answer how we are here, what we are made of, when humankind came to be, where it originated, but the “why” they fail to answer. I find that to be very intriguing.