I would be happy to believe if a deity would do something, anything at all, that I can clearly see and clearly attribute to him. I won’t tell said deity what to do, just ask that he (with his much greater knowledge) do whatever will reach me. That should not be any difficulty for an all-knowing, all-powerful deity, who has all of time at his disposal.

Of course nothing will happen. Not because such a being could not reach me, but because imaginary beings don’t do anything – except run circles in the minds of some of us.

Right back at you # 87. I am as baffled and disillusioned as anyone out there regarding the disconnect between the prophetic / scriptural declarations of a loving and involved God and the reality of 6,000 years of recorded human turmoil. Troy’s (#42) short narration of his nasty childhood can be replicated 100 million times and made 10 times nastier to descibe the actual life and times of other people. But, within my disillusionment I concede that God is not here to serve me nor you nor Troy.

You have concluded that since God does not intervene (in the manner and on the occasions that you prescibe) then He must not exist. I have concluded that (inspite of my great disappointment and disillusionment) God’s existence (or lack there of) is not something which is within my authority to dictate. I am not quite that arrogant. I am more drawn to attempting an explaination for why our insaciable neediness for intervention cause so many of us to conclude that there is no God.

But, my point is that many people incorrectly interpret God’s lack of intervention as prima facia evidence that He does not exist.

Well, if he did exist, he would be nothing but a powerful schmuck and I, for one, would not worship or follow a despicable being that would not intervene and eliminate suffering if he could. And if he can’t then, well, he is not really God, is he?

To # 77: In deed, why care about God? After all, He will continue being God whether I care or don’t care; believe or don’t believe; pray or don’t pray. An acknowledgement of a physical world (as elementary as that is) can help people accept both the reality of pain and suffering and an unfulfilled wish list together with the reality of God; they are not mutually exclusive as our protagonist conjectured.

The vast majority of the human populations’ collective experience is that God does not negate what He has already created (a physical and biological world) simply for the short term convenience of some whinny people. I know this sounds harsh and insensitive given that a good portion of those ‘whinny’ people are children, or the dispossed, or in a war zone. But, my point is that many people incorrectly interpret God’s lack of intervention as prima facia evidence that He does not exist.

Apart from the ‘intervention’ role, most people see little use for a God. Jews, Muslims and Christians look through the foggy, smeared lens of the Bible (Torah) to say that God created the world and that action had usefulness. Chriistians go one step further saying that God (through Jesus) forgives their sins and that has usefullness. (Of course, Jesus or perhaps the Church defines the sins that need forgiving, so the whole forgiveness thing is a circular enterprise.) But, even these religious believers don’t understand God’s ultimate usefullness. My contention is that only God Himself can explain or illustrate or demonstrate His ultimate usefulness.

Why care about God? Most of the time I don’t care about God. Most of the time I don’t care that the sun and the moon are exactly the right distance from the earth. Most of the time I don’t care that the size and density of the earth’s iron core is just right to generate a magnetic field. Most of the time I don’t care that my liver filters my blood or that my heart beats without any cognition or that photosynthesis is alive and well. Most of the time I don’t contemplate the heroism of the Greatest Generation or Washington crossing the Delaware River and all the drama surrounding that crossing. But, sometimes I do care, because caring makes my life more interesting and fulfilling.

To # 79: Pointing out the glaring disconect in our protagonist’s caretaker analogy is not legalistic nor nitpicky. The vacationer may also want his laundry cleaned and folded, his furniture dusted and polished, and his cd collection alphabetized. But, the charitable neighbor will put a limit to what can be reasonably requisitioned. For the neighbor to limit his invlovement in the caretaking duties of another’s property is not nitpicky; it is fundamental. For God to limit His involvement in the affairs of independent, self sufficient, autonomous, creative people is fundamental to the growth potential and self expression of those people. And for the neighbor to say “I will do this, but I will not do that” does not mean that the neighbor does not exist.

To #78: You are correct; that IS the crux of it. I understand the draw that people feel to freely and blindly believe in a benevolent God who fixes life’s woes. I also understand the ambivalent skeptisism that other people have in the existence of God. I also understand the athiests’ contention of the absurdity of believing in God.

Sometime in the 1980′s, while I was in college, Time magazine ran a cover story “Is God Dead?” and went on discussing the answer to the question. But, Time’s editors overlooked the most obvious retort to their question which is: “The God of which you speak was never alive.” Meaning that the world’s concept of what God is or what God is like or what God does is seriously flawed.

Since none of us can approach God in a corporeal way (a way that involves our 5 senses, which for most humans is the litmus test whether something exists), we must wait for God to approach us or at least one of us. That one person’s encounter would need to be sufficiently profound and convincing to remove all doubt as to its reality. Beyond sight, sound and touch, the person may smell and taste God and may experience God in a dimension reminicent of Einstein’s thought experiments relating to space and time and light speed. Please be aware that I am not a Treckie or a Fanboy, but Einstein and Hawking streatch our own concept of whether reality is only measured by our very limited 5 senses.

Many people have experiences, good and bad, following which they ask themselves, “did that really just happen?” The person who receives this unusual visit from God would not question whether ‘that just happened’; he or she would know by what ever method and with however many senses are required to unequivacantly know. The bigger question, as you pointed out, is how do I know that he knows? This shifts the burden of proof onto each of us. Yes, the witness must be credible, but the jury must know how to dicern which witness to believe. You are the jury.

It is a big question: How do I know that the person who claims to know really knows? Can he convince me through language or through some other method that his experiences and his interpretations of his experiences are rational and credible interpretations?

I do not know about that, millions were killed in the war on all sides.
In the 70′s a friend of mine was selling encyclopedias door to door. So I looked up the inquisition, it had listed about 20 or 30 thousand killed, you could send off for additional info and so I did.
The information I got this time was in the millions.

Why the discrepancy?

I have no idea, but this is a true story, I do not remember what company he was hawking at the time.
But it sure made me wonder what was really going on.

so before you try to reconvert people to your way of life research and learn the history of your way of life and how many counless inosent people were murdered by those in history who did follow your way of life. you will find the history of the christians makes the natzis of ww2 look like bloody pacifists.

And just how would you know this?
Did you talk to god at sometime or another?
Or did you read it in a book?

I have not seen one person ever placed on this earth, seen several get born however, never saw any storks either.
Never seen any universes created either, got born into this one 60 years ago and it is the only one I know.
I will not be here in 100 years but if I could I would take that bet.

Interesting analogy. I agree with it, including the “realness” of the guy the list is for..