de-conversion

117 Comments Add your own

• 1. Joshua  |  March 3, 2009 at 1:10 am

  “That apologetics didn’t understand the concepts they were defending, so I had been taught how to defend the wrong ideas. I was convinced that the answers were out there, however, so I started doing some research, which leads me to the knowledge part.”

  Wow. Exactly what happened to me, except I realized that while apologetics claimed to understand what they were defending, they rarely – if ever – understood who they were defending against. Rarely, if ever, did I feel like apologists in debate were actually addressing what men like, say, Dan Barker or Bart Ehrman or Richard Dawkins were *really* saying. Somehow I came to sympathize with them and found myself so frustrated at how weak apologist arguments were. I kept wanting to jump into the debate and “help” them out.

  Eventually I realized this was something that was impossible to do. And then I realized I was basically becoming an atheist for real.

  One day a woman at a Bible study asked me – with a slight smirk – why I believed in God. For a moment every single argument for God’s existence passed before my eyes and I realized none of them made any real sense. I made something up (I don’t even remember) and left feeling absolutely powerless to defend the faith – at all. So much for following Peter’s advice!

  I then knew I had a serious “problem”. Gosh, I was thinking too clearly I guess!

• 2. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 2:18 am

  Laura Dee,

  I can resonate with so much of your story! I was an ordained minister, and a conservative Christian. I debated with atheists and pagans, certain that I had the right answers, only to find they had other questions. I studied scripture and Christian teachings to share with those I ministered to and to equip them to minister others, and began to find all the holes and contradictions. I turned to other Christians, and found that they made peace with these difficulties by choosing what sort of god they wanted to believe in and choosing to believe in that. I’m open to the possibility of believing a god exists, if I see any evidence one does.

  The main differences between my story and yours are that I’m not particularly humble, and I had a lot of support from my fellow Christians when I shared that I was struggling with my faith and had to leave the ordained ministry.

  I’m glad you found some place where you can fit in. Thanks for sharing your story!

• 3. lovemoren  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:36 am

  Hi,
  The members of the Church you belonged to, did a wrong thing.hey probably taught wrong things too. I believe they were not sincere believers. Had they taught the truth, you probably would have learnt enough truth to aid you withstand weaknesses of other individuals. You probably fell victim to false teachers, who were only in it for money and power. in Matt 7:15 and 16, Jesus warned, saying:
  

  “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?

  You saw their fruits. They were not what they professed.

  I can assure you, God exists and he cares about you. I had doubts about the Bible but after studying the prophecies written in it, I knew only God could reveal the entire history of the world in advance. I also noticed that what the Bible says is true. My friends and I once prayed for someone who was mentally unstable and could not speak. Immediately after praying, this man got well and we could even interview him. My experiences are many. Don’t let other people cause you to lose focus on Jesus, the saviour. You should have tried another denomination or congregation.

  I once haboured secret doubts but now I’m a believer. I have seen the goodness of God for myself and I don’t have to depend on fellow members (not that I don’t need them) to keep me in the faith. They are just human beings who can make dreadful mistakes.

  you are welcome to visit my blog: amazingtruths.wordpress.com I will soon start dealing with some of the prophecies and other interesting topics that may not have been covered by your former church.

  Have a great day.

• 4. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:41 am

  Lovemoren,

  You have no idea what sort of site you just visited, do you?

• 5. lovemoren  |  March 3, 2009 at 6:19 am

  Quester,

  What do you mean by that?

• 6. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 3, 2009 at 7:44 am

  lovemoran, check out the section with the big, red exlamation point titled “Attention Christian Readers”

• 7. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 3, 2009 at 7:45 am

  Err, sorry. lovemoren, not lovemoran. This is what I get for commenting so early in the morning.

• 8. The de-Convert  |  March 3, 2009 at 9:19 am

  lovemore,

  While other “christians” may be an initial cause that allows us to remove some of the blinders from our eyes, in a majority of cases, it’s NOT the reason we de-convert. It’s just a way for us to become open to really seeing what is there.

  BTW, I really hope you don’t believe that you or your church teach “right things.” The Bible is such a vast book written by a large group of authors over a lengthy period of time and has so many logical inconsistencies and contradictions that anyone can claim to teach “right things.” I don’t know if I know of a church out there who believe that they’re teaching “wrong things” yet there are so many radically different thoughts out there.

  Pick a topic and I can find you a scripture to support or contradict it.

  Paul

• 9. Anonymous  |  March 3, 2009 at 11:47 am

  ((Lauradee,))

  Thank you for your moving story. I can’t imagine what this must have been like for you.

  Do you think that some of these people were reacting from fear? On some level you were a threat to them, and to their faith.

  For me, if Christianity is about anything it’s about loving each other unconditionally apart from performance, and totally resting in God.

  On top of that, didn’t the apostle Paul, himself, say, “That we see through a glass darkly..” Someone who thinks they have the total answer for every question out there, is surely in for a huge shock , to my mind.

• 10. lauradee24  |  March 3, 2009 at 11:57 am

  #9, I don’t know. My first reaction is “I don’t think so” because at the time, I was not broadcasting any change in religious beliefs. I was doing something they considered wrong (leaving my husband and staying with a male friend) and many of the judgments I received were attempts to parent me out of my sin. My parent’s pastor called me one day and lectured me for about 30 minutes. A good summary of the conversation was his statement, “Now, you claim to be a Christian, and I am going to tell you how to be a good Christian whether you like it or not.” I most certainly didn’t walk up to my parents one day and say “Oh, I am leaving my husband and by the way, I’m an atheist now.”

  I do, however, think that may be part of the reason why many people don’t speak to me now. Interesting insight!

• 11. LeoPardus  |  March 3, 2009 at 12:22 pm

  lauradee:

  Yours is another of the many great posts around here that so many of us say “Amen” to. Nothing like honesty, openness, and courage to get one out of the faith.

  I greatly agree with your words on humility. It is a primo “christian virtue” but it is NOT practiced, save by a tiny handful.

• 12. The de-Convert  |  March 3, 2009 at 12:29 pm

  Leo,

  It’s actually easier to practice humility as a de-convert than as a Christian… you know that whole being a part of the “chosen” ones, everyone else going to hell, separate yourself from the “world”, etc. all put a damper on trying to be humble – all issues we don’t have to overcome.

  Paul

• 13. LeoPardus  |  March 3, 2009 at 12:38 pm

  lovemoren:

  Gee your first post and you manage to use one of the Convenient categories. That’s quite an accomplishment.

  I can assure you, God exists and he cares about you.

  I can assure you he does not and you are under a delusion.

  I had doubts about the Bible but after studying the prophecies written in it, I knew only God could reveal the entire history of the world in advance.

  Pshaw! Vaguely worded, ancient texts that can be (and are) interpreted in a million ways. Get real.

  My friends and I once prayed for someone who was mentally unstable and could not speak. Immediately after praying, this man got well and we could even interview him.

  Frankly, and I probably speak for many here, I figure two things explain this. 1- You made it up. 2- You were duped by the dude you think you cured.

  I will soon start dealing with some of the prophecies and other interesting topics that may not have been covered by your former church.

  What a marvelous example of the very arrogance lauradee spoke of in her article. She, like most of us here, could probably keep pace with you or even run circles around you on such topics.

• 14. Luke  |  March 3, 2009 at 12:55 pm

  i LOVED this post. LauraDee, you are a gifted writer and thanks for sharing your journey within your religious context and how that led to your current conclusions.

  i loved the fact that your cited everything… my fave. is “whenever I say “Christian”, know I am talking about conservatives here”

  too many times people do not make this distinction. this is a great qualification and it is key to understanding the three keys you posit.

  your openness and willingness to think are something we need more of, regardless of where you come out on the “God issue”. if this site is a testament to anything, it’s that people can be good out of fear of God, out of God’s love for them, or just because being good is worth being regardless of a supreme being.

• 15. Yurka  |  March 3, 2009 at 1:09 pm

  It would be funny if it weren’t so tragic:

  #4 Lovemoren,

  You have no idea what sort of site you just visited, do you?

  #5. lovemoren | March 3, 2009 at 6:19 am

  Quester,

  What do you mean by that?

  What Quester and Leopardus mean is that even if God appeared to them personally and performed miracles, they would resort to idiotic evasions rather than admit the evidence of their senses, so your testimony will have no effect outside of grace working on their hearts. They want proof, and when they’re given it, they don’t want to investigate it. They a priori reject it, which shows they were insincere in the first place in asking for it. They will find a way to evade your testimony.

• 16. Joshua  |  March 3, 2009 at 1:20 pm

  lovemoron -

  Thank you for the invite, but as you have expressed, many of us have not experienced that form of a church. If we were “lead astray”, we wondered why God would have allowed such a thing when others – like you claim to be – have the gospel correct. This seems more like the work of chance and misunderstanding on the part of human minds than it does the work of deity.

  Those of us who were treated indecently began to feel that this was just a part of life – you know? People are mean to each other because evolution has left us highly evolved animals with animal instincts and desires.

  We truly appreciate those of our fellow men who are kind and decent and gentle – regardless of their background or creed. To most of us, this is what matters – not what a person says they believe.

• 17. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 3, 2009 at 2:34 pm

  Heck, my time as a Christian was nothing but pleasant. I certainly didn’t leave the faith because of other Christians, it wasn’t even a contributing factor.

  I just took a hard look at what I believed, and realized it didn’t make any sense; that I would never have become a Christian if I had not been raised as one through my childhood.

• 18. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 3, 2009 at 2:37 pm

  Same here, SnugglyBuffalo.

• 19. atimetorend  |  March 3, 2009 at 2:47 pm

  It is interesting how many different ways a person can be provoked to examine their faith critically. Once examined though, the same means of examining the faith and the end result can be exactly the same, conclusions based on evidence and rational thought leading a person away from faith.

• 20. LeoPardus  |  March 3, 2009 at 2:55 pm

  SB:

  I’m totally with you on that. Heck I’m still at church most every Sunday with my family. The folks at the church are mostly very nice people.

  atimetorend:

  Righto mate.

• 21. Joshua  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:06 pm

  So my experience in the faith was unusual? I mainly remember the suspicions, the judgments, the church splits, the control, the submission, etc. Maybe I’m just selectively remembering. Sure we had church potlucks (nice ones), and most people were pretty friendly.

  Gosh, I just remember being terrified of hell quite a bit of the time.

• 22. lauradee24  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:15 pm

  You know, commenting on the “my experience with church has been nothing but great” as opposed Joshua’s experience, I think a lot of it has to do with denomination and specific church characteristics. Some churches are filled with kind and loving people. If my fiance wants to go to church, I would go with him to support him in his beliefs as he has done mine because he attends a more open denomination. UU also have a reputation for being more open minded as opposed to say, Assembly of God. Regionally, the South tends to be more conservative and judgmental than the North.

  Also, though, growing up, I had wonderful experiences with church for the most part. It wasn’t until I went into the ministry that I saw a very dark and ugly side to religion. Then, when I who claimed to be a Christian did something that Christians thought was wrong, even those who gave me those wonderful experiences were quick to either run or confront and judge. I think it depends on who you are, where you’re from, and where you go that makes up whether or not you have a positive experience with church.

• 23. lauradee24  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:17 pm

  (oh, and to clarify, the dark and ugly side to which I was referring was exactly what Joshua had stated as his experience–the judgment, control, submission, etc. And that church is really mostly about numbers and a bit about money to the vast majority of pastors I encountered, though not all, and I know not all are like that. As a whole, the SBC–Southern Baptist Convention, is notorious for over-emphasizing numbers as a measure for successful ministry. I didn’t encounter any of this stuff sitting in the pew.)

• 24. Joshua  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:19 pm

  “It wasn’t until I went into the ministry that I saw a very dark and ugly side to religion”

  Bingo. You hit a large part of it on the head. Good point. Suddenly money becomes far more important than you realized in the pews. Suddenly control and power become influencing factors.

  It all feels much like business and like there is very little (or no) spiritual side to it at all.

  This what you mean?

• 25. lauradee24  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:28 pm

  Well, there is a spiritual side, but it seems so fake and made up. There IS a lot of business that goes on behind closed doors. But like, even the pastors would flat out make up how spiritual they were. I did not like the first pastor I served under at all, but I loved the second one. Both, however, would pat themselves on the back during their sermons about how much time they spent doing church work. Both estimated about 70 hours per week. Well, I lived next door to the first and I knew what he did all week, and he maybe put in 25 hours. I knew the second one did all the time just because of how it was arranged and he put in about the same. The second one may be at church but reading a golf magazine, not doing any kind of sermon prep or ministry.

  As for money, that does play a pretty big role. Our first church kept us under the poverty level–we had to rely on Food Stamps and student loans to pay for our basic necessities, but they still were very angry that we didn’t tithe exactly 10%. We couldn’t afford to–it was literally pay them or pay for food. So yes, even our $100 per month was incredibly important to them. It was about money and it was ridiculous.

• 26. lauradee24  |  March 3, 2009 at 3:36 pm

  (this congregation that kept us under the poverty level did so willfully, btw–they had plenty of money! I know because I got to sit in on all the budget meetings. Just thought I would clear that up.)

• 27. Jeffrey  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:01 pm

  >So my experience in the faith was unusual? I mainly remember the suspicions, the judgments, the church splits, the control, the submission, etc.

  For me it was a mixed experience and depended very much of what part of my life you are talking about. I loved my Christian group at college. I loved the Episcopal group I was in at grad school – they are people whose lives do not seem to be harmed by their faith.

  My “home” church while away at college was bittersweet. I’m happy to see some of the people away from church, but I wouldn’t go back to say hello.

  But growing up in ATI … yeesh. The worst part wasn’t the judgmental attitudes I had to deal with. I was the judgmental attitudes others had to deal with. Sometimes I got an inkling of just how much of a dick I was being, but still I felt compelled to carry on because standing up for God’s standards against even other Christians was the right thing to do.

• 28. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:16 pm

  Patting yourself on the back can be a survival strategy for a pastor. Without it, people begin to believe you’re doing nothing and add to your duties or dock your pay (or both). *sigh*

  And Joshua, I understand. Sometimes I would cringe internally, but I had to share God’s truth (read: be a dick), or these people might be subjected to eternal torment! It made for some horrible dissonance.

• 29. Joshua  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:32 pm

  “Sometimes I got an inkling of just how much of a dick I was being, but still I felt compelled to carry on because standing up for God’s standards against even other Christians was the right thing to do.”

  Oh my… I totally understand this feeling. It almost becomes a drudgery – judging everyone all the time for things. Standing up for holiness and finding ways that one can set themselves apart from the world etc. Taking pride in avoiding drinking any alcohol, or not listening to certain types of music, or “waiting” for the right person to come along, etc. etc.

  Man.

• 30. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:38 pm

  Darn it, I apparently got Jeffrey and Joshua mixed up in my last comment. Sorry!

• 31. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 3, 2009 at 4:59 pm

  Thinking about it, I guess saying it was “nothing but pleasant” is a bit hyperbolic. I definitely had to deal with fear of hell, but it never really controlled my life. I would occasionally feel guilty for not “being in the word” enough, but nothing that would have a significant negative impact on my life.

  As for the people, I certainly saw hypocrites in the church. It was usually pretty minor stuff though, such that it never really made an impact (with the exception of one of the Sunday School teachers I knew who wound up being a child molester).

  I think part of the reason for my personal experience, though, is that I never really felt like I fit in at church. I went to Sunday School and later youth groups, went to Bible camps, and all that fun stuff, but I always felt like an outsider who happened to share the same beliefs. I would try to befriend people, but it always seemed like the only commonality was shared belief. I only have one lasting friendship that started in church. I guess my point being, I sometimes think I may have avoided all the trouble of the Christian community more because I was never really part of it than because of the communities themselves. Of course, this is all hearsay and idle speculation – I guess the real point is that my story is fairly atypical and not a good representation of either good or bad Christian communities.

• 32. focusing Man  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:03 pm

  Hi There, I am very sad reading these posts. Right now I am completing an MA, and part of that MA is exploring my own relationship between Religion Faith and Spirituality.

  With reference to Religion, well I can resonate so much with what has been written. I think that there is a lot of docrtinal corectness, judgmentalism particularly in more conservative ( theologically speaking) religions, and just plane intolloerance, not much of the love that Jesus talked about.

  But in the end I do beleive in God. Not through Religion, but through some intersting experiences. Like when I use to visit my mum in the nursing home, and how I use to read her Little prayers of Mouse which she loved, and how in all th epain that she was in, we both use to sense a presence there, holding us in all the pain. And also at Mum’s funeral, when I was giving the talk at the crematorium, I had the distinct sense of her presence, ( and yes I know there is a ‘materialistic’ explanation for this, but that explanation does not feel right).

  And sometimes, when I do Focusing with people, ( a body oriented appraoch to healing), there seems to be a presence there, that is not just my imagination, the other person feels it to.

  So I am not sure about Religion, or most of what religions teach, but I do sense that there is a greater intelleigance at work in the universe, and that there is a spiritual as well as a material world.

  But of course, if the materialists are right, we will never know as no one would be there to survive the death of the body. And if they are wrong, and conciousness survives the death of the body, as even Jung believed, then we could verify this.

  But of course this is speculation. So I am left with the issue of how I live this life. I recall something my mother said before she died, Love John, its the only thing in the world’. So that is how I want to live my life.

  John T

• 33. Luke  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm

  “conclusions based on evidence and rational thought leading a person away from faith.”

  if that isn’t a modernist statement, i dunno what is. i consider myself rather logical and upon examining my evidence, i come to a different conclusion.

  to think there is one way to think is just the other side of the fundie coin.

• 34. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:22 pm

  John,

  I’ve been there. It was when I realized that all I had were my personal experiences that I left the church. My experiences tell me there is more to this world than I will never know about, but unless I choose to interpret them with my Christian goggles on, they do not intrinsically point to a Christian interpretation of God (powerful, benevolent and caring about individuals).

  Love is very important. Empathy and reason can help you understand how to best be loving toward others. Best of luck!

• 35. Quester  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:27 pm

  Luke,

  To be fair, he did say “can” be. I think he was just pointing to a commonality of experience, not a hard and fast rule.

• 36. Luke  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:39 pm

  oh… thanks quester. helps if you pay attention to EACH word. makes the meaning and intent a little clearer that ay

• 37. Luke  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:39 pm

  *way

• 38. the chaplain  |  March 3, 2009 at 5:44 pm

  lauradee:
  Thanks for a great post. It’s hard to be humble when one is part of the chosen few. It’s also hard to do apologetics when one realizes that the apologists have developed answers for questions no one cares about. As for misery, yeah, I get it. But, I realize now that people are just people, muddling through the best they can. Some are likeable and loveable, others, not so much. It’s easier to accept that when one isn’t wasting time and energy begging the Holy Spirit would act in one’s own life, as well as in another’s, to bring your spirits into closer unity.

  If you ever believe in a god again, it will probably only be because there is substantial evidence to warrant such belief. There’s nothing wrong with that.

• 39. Carolyn  |  March 4, 2009 at 5:23 am

  Your post — and this blog — are far more ‘spiritual’ than than the Web’s plethora of religious sites. My view — as a religious person — is that the foundation of any meaningful spirituality — which isn’t necessarily ‘religion’ — is honesty, being authentically oneself. Only that honest self can have authentic relationships — with anybody, including God. When Jesus said the first would be last, I’m sure our modern Pharisees were among the clowns and hypocrites he had in mind.

• 40. Yurka  |  March 4, 2009 at 11:07 am

  #39 come on Carolyn, be honest. Haven’t you ever been *ashamed* of your behavior? But that was your authentic self! In order to have *authentic* relationships, you must frequently *suppress* your authentic self, since it is frequently vile. You need to read Jeremiah 17. Given that your impulses of the moment are unreliable, how can you base an *entire* spiritual doctrine on that? Isn’t that just wishful thinking? Listen to Ray Comfort – the worlds worst apologist and greatest evangelist. Perhaps he will be able to shock you out of your simple minded notions.

• 41. Joshua  |  March 4, 2009 at 11:41 am

  Yurka, please see:

  http://methodicalmusings.com/2009/03/04/ezekiel-prophecy-error/

  Stop quoting Scripture at other guests as if it was trustworthy until you can demonstrate that it is.

  Thanks.

• 42. LeoPardus  |  March 4, 2009 at 11:52 am

  Just for all of us to enjoy a more productive and healthy blog, can we all together officially recognize Yurka as a troll and stop acknowledging his existence in any way? (Accept perhaps indirectly by asking the mods to ban him if he doesn’t cease and desist.)

  Remember folks, trolls are pathetic beings who depend on others for acknowledgment of their pathetic existence. They don’t care if that acknowledgment is 100% negative. They just need it. So … DON’T FEED TROLLS.

• 43. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 4, 2009 at 11:54 am

  Who?

• 44. Joshua  |  March 4, 2009 at 12:07 pm

  Why the heck is he NOT banned? I’m getting absolutely tired of this. He doesn’t care whether we acknowledge him or not, he will keep addressing other guests and he will keep posting.

• 45. lauradee24  |  March 4, 2009 at 12:42 pm

  Carolyn, I agree. At the end of my time as a Christian, I was feeling completely mixed up and broken, and all I got were these ridiculous Sunday school kind of answers. You might find something useful in Why I Stopped Believing in God Part 2.

  It isn’t about the why, it is just the last thing I wrote as a Christian which is the emotional part of the de-conversion. Probably the most heartfelt, authentic, honest piece I have ever written, and something that many Christians–both practicing and de-converted can identify with.

  And now that I have puffed myself completely up, I will go.

• 46. lauradee24  |  March 4, 2009 at 12:45 pm

  um, I messed the html up in the link. I am actually pretty new at the blogging thing and not very good at the basic html yet. Take two:

  Why I Stopped Believing in God, Part 2

  And in case I messed up again, here is the link you can copy and paste:

  http://redheadedskeptic.com/2009/01/26/why-i-stopped-believing-in-god-part-two/

• 47. lauradee24  |  March 4, 2009 at 12:46 pm

  oh, well, I didn’t know I could just link it like the second one is. That is a little embarrassing!

• 48. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 4, 2009 at 1:06 pm

  At this point I wouldn’t be opposed to banning Yurka; hasn’t he been posting this nonsense for over a year now? I’m pretty sure he feels it’s his duty to counteract the “lies” of this website, I’m not sure even ignoring him will make him leave; and guests and newcomers to the site who don’t know his past here will always be there to give him attention anyway.

• 49. Yurka  |  March 4, 2009 at 1:55 pm

  Leo, I don’t read your junk anymore. How’s about just letting me be? Naturally I hope someday you’ll come around.

• 50. BigHouse  |  March 4, 2009 at 2:33 pm

  Can we give Yurka the Barry Bonds treatment and put an asterisk on all his posts? Just so visitors know that he doesn’t speak as a de-con or representative of the site’s administrators.

  However, as others have pointed out, his posts are some of the best evidence AGAINST the Christian viewpoint so I’d hate to lose that ammunution altogether.

• 51. LeoPardus  |  March 4, 2009 at 2:35 pm

  BigHouse:

  That might be a good idea. His arrogance, defensiveness, illogic, bad temper and attitude, snide swipes and so on definitely show people the very worst that comes from “christianity”. A better “ambassador for Christ” would be hard to find.

• 52. Jeffrey  |  March 4, 2009 at 6:27 pm

  I’m all for letting Yurka continue to post. Censors are for people who throw out stuff like “you deconverted so you could look at porn”, “you’re a child molester.” Debunking Christianity lifted their filter for a couple weeks – I’m not exaggerating.

  Yurka gives us highly determined irrationality, but to ban someone for that on a site so open seems petty. Maybe there’s a particularly insulting post of his that I missed, but I think he’s far out of banning territory.

• 53. LeoPardus  |  March 4, 2009 at 6:31 pm

  Maybe we could collect his posts and make an article of it.

  “How a REAL Christian REALLY Believes and Behaves”

• 54. Joshua  |  March 4, 2009 at 6:31 pm

  Haha, the Barry Bonds Treatment…

  I echo BigHouse’s concerns. I really don’t care what he says anyway, I just don’t appreciate the fact that he consistently addresses new guests who do not know that he is a troll. That is my major concern.

• 55. lauradee24  |  March 4, 2009 at 6:36 pm

  When it comes to sites like these, sometimes the biggest objectors are the ones with the biggest doubts.

• 56. Joshua  |  March 4, 2009 at 6:51 pm

  Good point lauradee

  “Methinks thou doth protest too much” comes to mind…

• 57. Rover  |  March 4, 2009 at 8:58 pm

  Lauradee,

  I enjoyed your post. I hope your new life brings you all the happiness you deserve.

• 58. paleale  |  March 4, 2009 at 9:30 pm

  Personally, I like the idea of having a ‘Collected Works of Yurka’ article. Maybe it could be a sort of ‘greatest hits’ compilation. But I would also like to link some sort of automatic disclaimer to his posts. That way, he gets his acknowledgment but it is understood that he isn’t representative of this site and the disclaimer would be ample reply to his rantings. Is that even possible?

  With that out of the way–

  Lauradee, thank you for sharing your experience with us. I’m sorry that you went through such an ordeal. I went through a similar time just changing denominations. You would have thought I had become a child-molesting, Nazi gangbanger given the reaction and treatment I received from pastors and ‘friends’, even family. I applaud your courage and hope that you find peace outside of the poorly disguised fascism of religious institutions.

• 59. Erudite Redneck  |  March 4, 2009 at 10:58 pm

  Stumbling in from being whupped by fundamentlist Christians as well as fundamentalist atheists. I might hang here awhile if that’s OK. I came around some quite awhile back. I fall under the “skepitcal Christians” rubric — but I confess up front that my fight is with the church generally, and the idolization of the Bible, not with God God’s self, per se.

• 60. The de-Convert  |  March 5, 2009 at 1:05 am

  ER,

  Welcome back. I did a post a couple years ago on the worship of the Bible as god:

  http://de-conversion.com/2007/04/19/do-christians-worship-the-bible-as-god/

  There are many de-converts who do not have issues with god, per se. They just don’t feel that if there is a god, he/she/it is probably not necessarily like any of the gods as described in the Bible.

  Whether it’s Elohim (walked with Adam and Eve, negotiated with Abraham, wrestled with Jacob, etc.), or Yahweh (warrior god of the Israelites, look on his face and die, thunder and lighting from a mountain, etc.), or Jesus (god-man who preached compassion, love, kindness, and forgiveness)…. even though the nice Jesus would really be the closest definition to the Christian “god.”

  Stick around. The fundies may infiltrate at times and deliver some blows but it only shows their ignorance and really gives examples of the issues we’re discussing.

  Paul

• 61. lovemoren  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:10 am

  #15 Yurka, you are right. I see that #13 has his mind made up. And will not listen to a different view. The de-converts claim to be more humble than those who still believe… well, thats not what I have seen from the coments on this site. #16 (Joshua), just called me Lovemoron but its Ok. If Jesus could be insulted, I wouldn’t expect to be spared.

  There are many reasons as to why one can give up his or her faith. And I believe all of you who are bashing me know deep inside your hearts the cause for your leaving the faith.

  #13, you claim God doesn’t exist. So how did you come into being? are you one of those who believe they are descendants of bacteria and monkeys? Which one makes more sense?

  Finally, in my earlier post, I was giving possibilities (I even used words such as ‘probably’) I wasn’t claiming to be the super know it all. The comment was also specifically based on the situation(s) highlighted in the story.

• 62. lovemoren  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:19 am

  Oops! Fogot to close the bold tag.

• 63. Joshua  |  March 5, 2009 at 9:47 am

  “#16 (Joshua), just called me Lovemoron but its Ok. If Jesus could be insulted, I wouldn’t expect to be spared. ”

  That actually was a mistake. Sorry about that. I really do apologize, it was unintentional. I wasn’t persecuting you.

  “I see that #13 has his mind made up”

  lovemoren, I’m not really sure what you mean by this. Unless, of course, you are implying the entire Ezekiel teaching about a person’s blood being on their own head if they hear the message and reject it. In which case, see #41.

  “Which one makes more sense?”

  Well, up until a year ago, being created directly by God made a lot more sense to me. Then I studied evolution pretty heavily and then deistic / atheistic evolution made more sense.

  So, having studied all sides (six-day Biblical creation, theistic evolution, biologos, God-created-the-earth-to-look-billions-of-years-old-but-its-really-not creation, and just straight up evolution) I finally decided that evolution was true. I just couldn’t find my way around the evidence.

  And you have to consider, lovemoren, that even many of the founders of Christianity admitted Christianity itself didn’t make sense.

  “I believe because it is absurd.” ~ Tertullian

  “Spiritual things do not make sense to the natural man.” ~ Apostle Paul (paraphrased)

  “The wisdom of God is foolishness to man.” ~ Apostle Paul (paraphrased again)

  So arguing that something should be believed because it makes more sense is actually counter to Christian teaching.

  I mean. Think about it. God creates a universe with humans. The humans mess up. God has to send his son to die for the humans? God cannot just fix things, he has to have blood (what does a spiritual God need physical blood for?) And the humans are born incapable of avoiding sin, and then God judges them for sinning? One man’s sin causes everyone to die? Is this not punishing the children for the sin of the father? And then God – rather than telling people the good news that will save them – sends out human emissaries (just what we would expect if it were a human religion) who make mistakes, poorly communicate the message, etc. In the meantime millions and millions of people go to hell who have never heard the message that will save them. I mean, can this be called good news? Seriously?

  I mean, does that make sense? And if you want to claim it does not have to make sense because God is involved… well… then… that just sounds like a cop out. Any religion could say THAT.

  If after thousands of years we still have not figured the basics of our physical universe, what makes anyone think we could have figured out – or even understood via revelation – the basics of an invisible, untouchable, barely (if ever) communicating, untestable, more-often-than-not misrepresented spiritual realm?

  Shoot, I could argue the universe – and evolution – doesn’t have to make sense to us because the universe is beyond our comprehension and we will never figure it all out. And if there is a deity, there is no possible way we could ever claim to understand it because we cannot even understand the universe.

  That makes more sense to me.

• 64. ArchangelChuck  |  March 5, 2009 at 11:18 am

  Fundies are like bad magicians trying to entertain an audience who already knows their secrets.

  Good post, lauradee24. We have a lot in common.

• 65. LeoPardus  |  March 5, 2009 at 12:17 pm

  lovemoren:

  I see that #13 has his mind made up. And will not listen to a different view.

  And how would you see this given that you know nearly nothing of me? There are numerous articles I’ve written in the archives. They lay out my reasons for leaving the faith and now holding that the god of the bible is not real. Included in there is the clear position that I would believe if someone actually came up with a real deity instead of a lot of blather. Since I’ve never met a Christian with anything more than blather and occasional claims of supernatural experiences, I see no reason to believe.

  The de-converts claim to be more humble than those who still believe… well, thats not what I have seen from the coments on this site.

  With your all of a a few days here and having not read much and starting with an apparent strong bias. Is that your humble approach to understanding? And does your “I know better than you” and your “You all have your minds made up” approach reflect “Christian humility” too?

  If Jesus could be insulted, I wouldn’t expect to be spared.

  Oh good. Every Christian who has wandered in here and gets negative responses starts whining about how mean a nasty we are and then slinks off. Quite a testimony for these great followers of Paul, Peter, Polycarp and the like. A bunch of whining wimps. Glad to see you claim not to be one of those thin-skinned, mewly-mouthed, cry-baby “Christians”. When we insult you, slander you, call you names and say all manner of evil against you, you will stand up like Jesus and respond only with kindness and love (and thus heap burning coals on our heads) right?

  There are many reasons as to why one can give up his or her faith. And I believe all of you who are bashing me know deep inside your hearts the cause for your leaving the faith.

  Yes we know why. And I suppose that you, deep in your arrogance, claim to know better?

  you claim God doesn’t exist. So how did you come into being?

  Oh good grief. The kindergarten start to apologetics. OK. I’ll give you the junior high answer (assuming you went to a junior high that did sex ed). My parents had sex and mom got pregnant. That’s how I came into existence.

  are you one of those who believe they are descendants of bacteria and monkeys?

  Oh good grief. The total ignorance of science apologetics. Can’t blame this one on you entirely though. Most schools give such a poor explanation of evolution that it’s no surprise that so many people think it’s nuts. What they were taught probably really didn’t make sense.
  We all came from simpler life forms. There is more than enough phylogenetic evidence to support this. For further understanding, YOU must educate yourself as Josh did.

  Which one makes more sense?

  Which what? You did not present me with more than one alternative. You just asked a couple questions. Please provide me with the alternatives that you expect me to assess for greater/lesser sense.

  Finally, in my earlier post, I was giving possibilities (I even used words such as ‘probably’) I wasn’t claiming to be the super know it all.

  From your post (#3)
  You saw their fruits. They were not what they professed.
  I can assure you,
  I had doubts
  I knew only God could reveal the entire history of the world
  what the Bible says is true.
  You should have tried another denomination or congregation.
  I once haboured secret doubts but now

  Nah. You surely weren’t claiming to be a know-it-all. And you clearly still aren’t despite such quips as:
  I see that #13 has his mind made up. And will not listen to a different view.
  OR
  And I believe all of you who are bashing me know deep inside your hearts the cause for your leaving the faith.

  Like lauradee said,“Humility is something taught to Christians, but it is a rare Christian that actually possesses it.” You’re no rarity.

• 66. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 5, 2009 at 1:37 pm

  What makes more sense? That small changes in a population could, over time, lead to speciation, and that given enough time it would lead to the diversity of life we have today? Or that an invisible magic man violated the laws of physics to create everything?

  The magic answer might make more sense if we saw God violating the laws of physics now and then, but we don’t.

  Sometimes it’s difficult to not be angry with myself for being so willfully ignorant for so long…

• 67. LeoPardus  |  March 5, 2009 at 2:27 pm

  Sometimes it’s difficult to not be angry with myself for being so willfully ignorant for so long…

  Amen! I feel very much the same.

• 68. Joshua  |  March 5, 2009 at 3:29 pm

  “Or that an invisible magic man violated the laws of physics to create everything?”

  To be devil’s advocate, if there was a God it would not be a violation of any law to create everything, because – after all – God would have created the laws

  Natural laws are only rules we create to describe the consistent patterns of nature. The laws are only our best attempt to understand the way things are expected to happen. As such, it is quite possible they are not always “followed”. There is always an exception…

  Oh gosh, I’m going deist again…

• 69. lauradee24  |  March 5, 2009 at 3:38 pm

  hehe, Joshua, I tend to agree with you. I tend to go Occam’s Razor on this issue: it is far simpler and easier to believe that the universe evolved out of nothing than to believe a God created out of nothing created the universe out of nothing. People say it’s easier to believe the universe was designed, and I can actually agree with that. It is the infinite regression of who created God and where did those materials come from that becomes the problem, making it make more sense to believe in evolution.

• 70. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:10 pm

  My understanding is that the idea that the universe evolved out of nothing is not held by any scientists. All the matter and energy in the universe was held in a particle and released in the Big Bang, and questions such as “what happened before the Big Bang?” are meaningless since time itself didn’t exist except after the big bang.

  The whole idea that atheists believe the universe today evolved from nothing is a pretty common strawman argument used by Christians, but it’s not accurate.

• 71. lauradee24  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:38 pm

  Probably. I actually haven’t done much research that far back to fully understand more than the most basic ideas of cosmology. My point was really to defeat the argument that it is easier to believe that God made the universe than to believe it evolved out of nothing. I definitely need to do some more reading in this area to further strengthen my ideas.

• 72. Joshua  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:54 pm

  SnugglyBuffalo, I agree with you. The question:

  What happened before the universe?

  Is meaningless, given the definitions of the terms.

  However, I still struggle with the notion that something could transcend the universe. Other dimensions, etc. Ultimately an infinite regression is certainly possible, but it does not make sense to me. Multiverse, anyone? It certainly makes sense given the patterns we see in our own universe.

  Not that I would expect any of it to make ultimate sense, mind you, but its interesting to ponder.

  Jeez, I’m talking like a deist again…

• 73. lauradee24  |  March 5, 2009 at 6:58 pm

  I agree- for me, mere psychology major, the origins of the universe seem mind boggling and baffling. I am sure I sound quite ignorant to people who have studied it, but it is definitely interesting to ponder.

• 74. LeoPardus  |  March 5, 2009 at 7:28 pm

  Nobody can really say how the universe as we know it got started. Scientists have postulated other dimensions, parallel universes, white/black holes, and “we don’t know yet but as soon as we work out a TOE we’ll have it”.

  There are decent explanations that can take us back to 10 to the -34 seconds after the Big Bang, but they are perfect and they are only hypotheses. Still they make sense based on what we know about quantum dynamics, gravitation, etc.

  Frankly I derive no satisfaction out of “some magic dude did it”. That just kills the drive to learn and explore such matters.

  No, I’ll stick to intelligent investigation and theorizing over superstitious assertions any day, thank you.

• 75. grace  |  March 7, 2009 at 8:41 am

  Hey, Leo Pardus,

  It doesn’t kill it for me, or for other scientists who are Christians.

  This all does boggle the mind. But, if God is eternal, and above time, He was never created. But, the universe is not eternal, and really did begin at a specific point in time.

  Have you checked out Dr. Francis Collins relatively new book, The Language of God, A Scientist Presents Evidence For Belief?

  I”m going away for the weekend, heading for the finger lakes, so I won’t be around for awhile. Enjoyed talking with you, Josh, and Lauradee, too.

• 76. LeoPardus  |  March 7, 2009 at 12:39 pm

  I have not read Collins’ religious stuff. I have read a couple of his scientific papers. He’s a fine and brilliant scientist. His religious works are of no interest to me now. Nor are anyone else’s. You see, I don’t need arguments for God to convince me. I have more of them than most anyone you’re apt to meet. What I would need to convince me is…….. an actual deity. He/She/It could show up in any number of ways, limited only by his/her/its power, knowledge, and imagination. But he/she/it must show up. Sending apologists and old, treadless arguments isn’t good enough.

  So be it a fine scientist, a fundy nut, or a kindly internet avatar, no second/third/etc -hand argument or claim will do. God’s gonna have to get his butt off the throne.

• 77. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 7, 2009 at 12:47 pm

  @ LeoPardus

  One of the things that really sparked my deconversion is apologetics. Why is it that the supposed most powerful being in the universe has thousands, maybe millions scrambling to try to prove his existence to each other and the world?

  Certainly, you’re not trying to prove my existence, and neither am I trying to prove yours, and we’re just regular guys with no super powers.

• 78. LeoPardus  |  March 7, 2009 at 1:21 pm

  and we’re just regular guys with no super powers.

  Oh! And I thought “Monolith” was your super-hero monicker. You sure you don’t turn into a giant, uber-strong, rock creature who wears spandex and fights evil?

• 79. Mike aka MonolithTMA  |  March 7, 2009 at 1:42 pm

  Sadly no, the name came from an online RPG I played many years ago. One of the funniest moments was during a raid, we were all lying around near death, and the guy next to me whispered “I loved you in 2001″

• 80. Jerome Haltom  |  March 7, 2009 at 2:54 pm

  @61 lovemoren:

  The question of which to believe… a story in an old musty book from 2k years ago that claims we were made because a deity picked up some dirt and did so or an explanation that comes with millions of pages of studies, genetic research, fossil finds, successful predictions, a huge demonstrated tree of lineage, a properly explained mechanism (mutations and selection), huge amounts of tests and lab work that leads to the creation of new medicine.

  Yeah. That’s hard. Really.

• 81. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 7, 2009 at 3:43 pm

  grace-

  But, the universe is not eternal, and really did begin at a specific point in time.

  Care to provide evidence for that assertion?

  I know at least one theory postulates that the universe goes through a series of big bangs and big crunches, that it always has and always will.

  I don’t know how much credence I actually give the idea, but the idea that the universe is eternal is no less plausible than an eternal god.

  And at least we have evidence for the universe’s existence.

• 82. grace  |  March 8, 2009 at 4:36 pm

  I believe what I’m sharing is common knowledge among cosmologists, Snuggly. Alot of the data initially substantiating the Big Bang was provided by Edwin Hubble, and then further documentation was provided by Penzias, and Robert Wilson even in the 1960′s. I’m sure you could google all this, and learn more. You could also read, God and the astronomers by astrophysicist, Robert Jastrow.

  You know, I think that God does work in differing ways in different people’s lives, Leo. God first tangibly showed up in my life with this strong sense of His presence, and a flash of insight relating to so many of my questions when I was quite young.

  When my husband first came to faith, God seemed to bring all the right people along, and a succession of seemingly miraculous occurances. Other people seem to need nothing of this, and have always had faith. Sometimes God uses the apologists, and that can be a help to some. It just depends. Others simply read the Scripture, and that’s enough. We’re all unique.

  But, in all honesty, to the vast majority of people on earth, the existence of some kind of God does seem pretty self-evident to them. I don’t think most folks are too concerned about apologetics, one way or the other.

  Are you angry, or irritated with Christians, Leo? I do get that sense from alot of people who post on the deconversion blogs. There seems like quite abit of disrespect, and hostility coming from both sides sometimes. I’m not sure I’m able to always understand why.

  I don’t feel personally hostile, or angry with the atheists, and while I certainly want to show the love of Christ in my life, I wouldn’t want to be coercive, or force my opinion on anyone.

  This will probably be my last comment, but I will hang around for abit to hear any follow-up remarks. Thanks again so much for the discussion. Much blessing on everyone’s path here.

  Pax.

• 83. SnugglyBuffalo  |  March 8, 2009 at 5:37 pm

  grace-

  But, in all honesty, to the vast majority of people on earth, the existence of some kind of God does seem pretty self-evident to them.

  This is an appeal to widespread belief. That the existence of some kind of deity seems self-evident to most people does not make it true. So far the only evidence it seems anyone can give for God is purely subjective experience. I’ve had those experiences, and yet I still rejected the idea of God.

  Regarding the universe, you mention the big bang – perhaps you failed to notice that I did as well? Yes, the big bang is the beginning of the universe as we know it, but what if the universe went through a cycle of a big bang followed by a big crunch before the big bang that produced our current universe? What if that’s been happening eternally?

  And even if it didn’t, going with the more traditional view of the universe and the big bang, the argument that the universe had a beginning does not necessitate a creator. Keep in mind that “prior” to the big bang, time did not exist, and so in that sense the particle that spawned our universe was eternal. It would have existed without time. We have physics to support this.

  As for God, what evidence to we have that he is eternal, uncreated? No evidence, just baseless assertions from various writers and subjective personal experiences.

  I have yet to see any convincing evidence for any sort of deity.

• 84. GaryC  |  March 8, 2009 at 6:17 pm

  I don’t feel personally hostile, or angry with the atheists, and while I certainly want to show the love of Christ in my life, I wouldn’t want to be coercive, or force my opinion on anyone

  Would you be in favor of having Congress remove the words “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance, as well as changing the current national motto, “In God We Trust,” back to the original “E Pluribus Unum”?

• 85. LeoPardus  |  March 8, 2009 at 8:26 pm

  Are you angry, or irritated with Christians, Leo? I do get that sense from alot of people who post on the deconversion blogs

  Sometimes I am irritated yes. The silly, irrational, illogical things that are said in making apologetics for theism are annoying. Partly just because they are so childish, but also partly because, in a very real sense, I’m sickened that for so long I carried on such dissonance in my own life. I still cannot understand why I would not see the truth when it was/is so evident. (That anger as self is doubtless part of the sense you get at times.)

• 86. paleale  |  March 8, 2009 at 8:38 pm

  Hi Grace

  Are you angry, or irritated with Christians…? I do get that sense from alot of people who post on the deconversion blogs. There seems like quite abit of disrespect, and hostility coming from both sides sometimes. I’m not sure I’m able to always understand why.

  I can only speak for myself here. There have been times where I have felt irritation, frustration and anger but I wouldn’t say that I go through daily life carrying a feeling of hostility towards Christians. I do feel like more of an outsider than I ever have in my entire life, though. Ironically, I feel more connected with idea of ‘being in the world but not of it’ than I ever did as a Christian– perhaps because I was surrounded by Christians. Of course, I’m still surrounded by Christians. A stranger in a strange land, if you will. And there is also the feeling that ‘this is not my home’. Not that I have another home waiting for me in heaven, but that this was my home and that home has been overrun.

  I was in a very nice bookstore today. It’s an independently owned bookstore in a nice part of town. Three different levels, Pete’s Coffee downstairs. Big, nice bookstore. There was not a single philosophy book in the whole place. Not one. Not even a copy of Utopia or Plato’s Republic. But the Religion section was HUGE. And take a guess at which religion was represented. It should have been labeled simply as a ‘Christianity’ section because it was the only religion there. I’m not saying that the owner doesn’t have the right to stock whatever he wants but to eliminate an entire section and alienate a large demographic from his otherwise excellent business– I was very disappointed and it truly made me feel as though my views were sub-human or culturally deviant.

  That’s just one example. GaryC mentioned a couple of more politically-minded instances. I’ve had friends turn their backs on me because of my views. It’s just been weird and saddening to experience this side of it. In a country where political correctness rules the day and tolerance and inclusion is preached from every corner, it’s still okay to bash the atheist. Imagine how you would feel if you were in my shoes. Sad? Frustrated? Irritated? Angry?

• 87. The Truth  |  March 9, 2009 at 7:44 pm

  See, I can feel where you’re coming from.

  But, there’s something you need to know, and this is how I truly feel.

  There is a difference between FAITH and ORGANIZED FAITH.

  Your FAITH is based on what YOU believe in, and what will ultimately make YOU happy. I’m happy knowing that there is a God. Whatever his name may be, Elohim, Jevohav, God, Allah, Lucifer, whatever…I believe he/she is there.

  Everything had to come from something. That spark that created life and all the matter in this universe is GOD.

  But when you have men, who ‘organize’ how you believe, when you believe, what you believe, why you believe, and where you believe…that’s when it become a perversion of FAITH.

  Taking a God that is ALL, making your own conclusions about them, and forcing those conclusions on unsuspecting people seeking eternal happiness…using fear and tyranny based on allegorical texts (written by MAN)…

  …well, that’s WRONG.

  In the book of Genesis, God gave mankind the power, dominion and authority over:

  * the land, and the beasts that traverse it
  * the sea and the creatures that swim in it
  * the air and the foul that dwell within it

  Notice…he never gave mankind the power, dominion and authority over mankind.

  And what is organized relgion?

  Mankind attempting to use their beliefs and perceived higher knowledge to gain power, dominion and authority over mankind.

  According to the Jesus myth (who is the Greco-Romanized version of the historical Yeshua Bin Yosef), what was Jesus really trying to do? DISRUPT THE ORGANIZED JEWISH FAITH.

  Why? because it was ORGANIZED and not based on personal belief and experience. Besides, he knew they were corrupt, only robbing the poor, and securing the riches with the rich and so-called elite in their organized faith.

  Constantine had a dream/vision in 325AD where he saw a pagan cross and the words “In the cross, we will conquer”.

  As a result, Constantine and the ailing Roman Empire perverted the story of Yeshua (since he WAS lynched), stole some pagan rituals and symbols (that were being used by the commoners at the time) and RE-ORGANIZED the FAITH to rebuild their empire using spiritual tyranny and political force to control the masses rather than brutal force.

  They chose to scare the ‘idiots’ using superstition rather than threatening them with force this time.

  It’s sad. One-third of the world believes in a man-made regurgitated myth.

  C’mon…the ‘Chosen One’ / “Messiah’ myth…Birth-Death-Resurrection

  It’s been done to death. And the Roman establishment (the bunch of stingy and greedy bastards) recycled this same myth using their perversion of a real guy who stood as the head of the slave rebellion in Roman times.

  And the whole ‘Christ’ thing? Do you know where the word comes from?

  Christ is Greek (or Christos). But the Greeks stole the word from Kemet. In Kemet, they had the whole birth-death-resurrection story as well. Except their hero was the personification of the SUN.

  The SUN of God…hmmmmmm

  Anyway, when the Greeks conquered Kemet, they stole their ideology behind the birth-death-resurrection story, including the ‘Sun of God’ thing.

  But as for the word Christ?

  Well, in Kemet they had a word…KA or KA-REST…which meant ‘Spirit’, your essence, your soul, so to speak.

  So, Yeshua Bin Yosef (Jesus) was given the title of the Ka-Rest (embodying the spirit of a God) and given the life story behind the Sun of God story.

  Yeshua Ka-Rest in Greek becomes “JESUS CHRIST”

  hmmmmmmmm

  The whole resurrection thing, that was done with Adonis, Horus, as well as plenty of fictional heroes that receive the praise and worship as the personification of the SUN.

  In the end, organized religion is nothing more than a closet way of worshiping the Sun, where they rob you of 10% of your income every time you come to worship.

  The only legit way to rob the people, is to shamelessly use superstition to ask for donations.

  Think about it…what happens when a church isn’t making as much as they used to? They start preaching about the tithing. But when you read the Bible, they say a tithe (tenth) of EVERYTHING belongs to the Lord.

  …NOT into the Pastor’s wallet, and NOT into a non-profit organization’s bank account. Oh yeah, that non-profit is the Church itself. Well, in order to live tax-free, they have to INCORPORATE themselves, and be subject to the State. So even your religion is controlled by the State. WOW Big shock.

  Pretty much, all I have to say is…there is a God. He’s in YOU. If God is all and all is God, then you are God, and so is everything else you see, smell, taste, touch and feel. PERIOD.

  My warning is, GOD is not in church…for a church is only a non-profit organization who has a beautiful hall to practice superstitious rituals away from public view and scrutiny.

  A pastor said this at the end of his sermon that made me start thinking HMMMMM…about organized religion.

  He was preaching to come to God and Jesus through faith and faith alone because, “by being JUST a member of a church, the only thing that’s guaranteed to you is NOT salvation, The only thing guaranteed is that you get a venue and a free meal for your funeral. Too bad you won’t be able to enjoy it.”

  Maybe it was God who was finally reaching out to me in the midst of all the ‘sheep’ who were being LEAD by the shepard (the Pastor)…

  Who knows? There is a God. He’s not in church, though.

• 88. grace  |  March 9, 2009 at 8:11 pm

  I would feel all those things. (((Paleale))

• 89. paleale  |  March 9, 2009 at 8:57 pm

  The Truth(?)

  Man, you can’t just walk in here and start tossing the word ‘truth’ around at a bunch of skeptics, even if it is in your moniker. No matter how certain you may be of the existence of a divine being, it’s still just your subjective experience and in the end simply a choice you made to believe a certain way.

  It’s no different than believing that space aliens make crop circles. Has anyone ever seen a space alien destroying someone’s crops for the sake of cosmic art? No. But thousand and thousands of otherwise sane people believe that extra-terrestrials are trying to communicate with us through making pretty designs in Farmer John’s wheat field.

  Most people believe in the supernatural because it makes them feel more comfortable. I believed in God A: because I was taught to believe from a very early age and B: because it felt good to think that an all-powerful being took interest in my affairs and actually loved me and wanted me to be in heaven.

  No one has proof that any of it is real, just like the crop circles. And also like crop circles, there is a strong base of empirical evidence to support the idea that it is a man made hoax, or at least an invented worldview to neatly tie up loose ends of questions about our existence and the world in which we live. It was probably pretty easy for early man to ascribe personality to the sun, or to a volcano or the ocean. It was probably an easy leap to organizing that personification into a belief system that involved rituals and ceremonies. I’m sure that somewhere there’s a group of people that have regular meetings in an attempt to commune with the alien crop-circle makers.

  It’s all fine and good if you want to take your life’s experience and orient it towards a belief in the divine. But to quote the venerable Thom Yorke of Radiohead, “Just ’cause you feel it doesn’t mean it’s there.”

• 90. paleale  |  March 9, 2009 at 9:10 pm

  Grace,

  It’s nice to know that empathy is alive and well

• 91. Agnostitician  |  March 10, 2009 at 6:39 am

  Great post lauradee24. All religions are parasitic organisms by their very nature. You are ‘awake’ now and can observe the writhing form of the worm that ‘was’ as a yoke upon you cast away! QUESTION EVERYTHING! DREAM AND DISCOVER! Those who cannot or simply will not (more’s the pity) are as you have found them to be in your experience: bound inexorably in mental servitude to antiquated, irrational, irrelevant thought processes spawned from bronze-age tribal conventions in the traditions of dominance, control and conformity. Ain’t free-will grand?

• 92. Ubi Dubium  |  March 10, 2009 at 8:45 am

  I actually find myself in agreement with a few of the points “The Truth” made.

  Like that it’s wrong to force your conclusions about god(s) on other people. That a large part of Chrisitianity is simply earlier myths, re-hashed. And that organized religions are about controlling people and separating them from their money.

  I don’t agree about the existence of a personal god. But at least “The Truth” has reached the point in their journey of deciding that it’s OK to reject the tyrrany of organized religion and unquestioning veneration of ancient texts.

  Keep thinking for yourself “The Truth”! But your basic premise is “There is a God”. Be sure that you have thoroughly asked yourself why it is that you believe that. If it is for the same reason that the church-goers you decry believe in their dogmas, then give that premise a good hard re-think. Be sure that it makes sense to you, for some other reason than it’s what you’ve always been told, or that lots of people believe it. The “everything has to come from something” line sounds like one fundamentalist creationists use. If that statement is true, then where did “god” come from? If god didn’t “come from something”, then that argument doesn’t hold up. It’s OK if you want to believe in a god, as long as you really understand your reasons for doing so.

  And do be cautious that you aren’t

  ” making your own conclusions…, and forcing those conclusions on unsuspecting people …

  This is a good place to talk, but not to preach.

• 93. paleale  |  March 10, 2009 at 5:08 pm

  Don’t get me wrong, Ubi. I agree with several of ‘The Truth’s’ points as well, namely the plausibility of organized religion simply having been galvanized as a theocratic racketeering scheme and way to keep the populace subjugated. Also, I recognize the common themes between Christianity/Judaism/Islam and early ‘pagan’ religions and the probability of gross plagiarism.

  I just get miffed when I hear someone talk about absolute truth consisting of something completely unobservable and based on subjective experience and good vibrations.

• 94. paleale  |  March 10, 2009 at 5:09 pm

  By the way, is your full name

  Ubi Du Scooby Dooby Benubium?

• 95. Ubi Dubium  |  March 10, 2009 at 9:09 pm

  No, but a big “thumbs up” for that name, even though it’s the silliest name ever! No, I stole my handle from “Ubi Dubium, Ibi Libertas” (“Where there is doubt, there is freedom”) . I thought it suited me. Then my family glommed onto it also, and my spouse is now Ubi Dubius, and you may also occasionally hear from UbiDubiKid#1 or UbiDubiKid#2.

  I agree with you on the comment from “The Truth”. I get annoyed when somebody comes in here so full of themselves. Declaring that the churches have it all wrong, but using many of the traits I see from Fundamentalist commenters (Proclaiming they have some sort of lock on “truth”, using tired catch-phrases like “something can’t come from nothing, and using ALL CAPS at us as if shouting is going to make their comment make sense). Perhaps this is somebody who has just broken with Fundamentalism, is resentful at having been lied to, but has not yet managed to dump the Fundie “I must convert you” mindset. I’ll give commenters like this one chance to stop preaching and start talking. If they don’t, I’ll just ignore them like I ignore Yurka.

• 96. paleale  |  March 10, 2009 at 9:35 pm

  Good call. Having just “broken with fundamentalism” myself, relatively speaking, it’s easy for me to want to shout my opinions. I’ve tried to ‘mind my manners’ as my mother would say but sometimes I still get a bit prickly. Sorry if I come off rude. I’m working on it !

  By the way, the silly name thing was a reference to a spoof of the Star Wars franchise called “Thumb Wars”. All the characters are the film-maker’s actual thumbs, in costume with super-imposed facial features. Sheer genius. The Obi-Wan Kenobi character is portrayed as “Ubi Du Benubi” who’s middle name is “Scooby Dooby”. It’s a great gag when ‘Thumb Luke’ put all the names together.

• 97. Ubi Dubium  |  March 11, 2009 at 3:42 pm

  Don’t forget The Blair Thumb, and Thumbtanic!

• 98. the chaplain  |  March 12, 2009 at 10:35 am

  I don’t need arguments for God to convince me. I have more of them than most anyone you’re apt to meet. What I would need to convince me is…….. an actual deity. He/She/It could show up in any number of ways, limited only by his/her/its power, knowledge, and imagination. But he/she/it must show up.

  Well said, Leo. I may use this to kickstart a post at my blog, if you don’t mind.

• 99. LeoPardus  |  March 12, 2009 at 11:15 am

  I don’t mind at all. Go ahead.

• 100. Isa  |  March 14, 2009 at 8:37 am

  Look up Islam. You’ll find the truth there.

• 101. John  |  June 28, 2009 at 2:30 pm

  What a moving story. I was born into a Christian family. My mother told me that I had to go to church or I will burn in hell. She was a wicked woman and to this day I have no contact with her. I went to Bible college and became disillusioned with Christianity. After studying philosophy and reading Nietzsche and Sartre, I realized that Chrstianity is not truth but a lie. How can a loving God condemn so many people to hell because they do not believe in Jesus? I will return to this page and read more of your comments. Did you ever remarry?

• 102. Looking for truth  |  July 23, 2009 at 4:08 pm

  I am new to all of this. I was brought up a Christian and am just starting to doubt or at least question the ideologies I’ve been taught. I’m 41 years old and this is a really hard place to be. After a split (and then another pastor took over and then they left and now there’s in-fighting and on and on) in my church and lots of drama that ensued, I felt it best to leave. Through my own (subjective) experience, I thought that I saw God around every corner and with every good (and bad) thing that happened. I have read the above posts with great interest and have found the arguements quite convincing and scary at the same time.

  I’m curious how people got over the guilt (I’m being honest and sincere). I feel (note: feel) that I’ll be condemned in this life for not believing in what has always seemed to be an obvious truth. My husband bought some books recently on questioning all of it and I find myself wondering all day and night if I have stumbled onto the truth or have fallen into a pit. I’m not attacking anyone’s belief or lack thereof.

  This is a true turning point in my life and I’m not taking it flippantly. I attended a “UU” church last Sunday and that’s about as flaky as I’ve ever seen. (Not to be mean, I just do not understand. Not right or wrong, I just don’t understand) Get in or out of the boat is my opinion (note: my opinion). I truly don’t understand atheists going to church, I cannot wrap my head around it. I would appreciate thoughts, not mockery, in my journey and search for what is the truth.

• 103. Quester  |  July 23, 2009 at 4:43 pm

  Welcome, Looking!

  I chose a similar username for a similar reason when I first joined this site. I appreciate the care you have taken in being polite in your questions, and I will attempt to do the same in my responses.

  I don’t mean to imply that I have all the answers, but I can share my perspective.

  Doubting and questioning is a good thing. This is how we get closer to truth, whatever it might be. It can be a painful thing, however. Especially if the truth is not what we once thought it was. For most of my life, I was a Christian. I went so far as to go to seminary and was ordained a pastor. For years, I saw God everywhere, in everything that happened. I felt, from my subjective experience, God’s closeness. Over a matter of years, I began to reinterpret my experiences and realize I knew nothing about God- not His will, not His character, not even whether or not He exists. This was horribly painful for me. Luckily, I had help getting through.

  You can read my post, Fighting the Fear of Hell and Eternal Torment to see some of what helped me deal with my fear of condemnation. The comments under the post recently took an unfortunate turn, but I hope the post might still help.

  When I finally hit the point where I realized that I no longer believed in God, I went through a period of intense mourning of about a year’s duration. I am only just getting past it. For me, gathering with those like the Universalist Unitarians or the Religious Society of Friends was part of the mourning process. Others, perhaps, can “get in or out of the boat”. I needed some time in a lifeboat before I could feel secure swimming on my own, if you don’t mind me stretching your metaphor. Others may attend churches because humans are herd animals. We’re social creatures and celebrating rituals and life moments is part of how we build community, and thus how we build ourselves. It also provides us an established group with which to help others. I may go back, some day, to some church or church-equivalent, for reasons like those. Others continue to attend church for the sake of family members who still believe. Sometimes, a church like the UU is a compromise for a believer and a non-believer who are part of the same family unit.

  I hope some of this helps. Feel free to stick around and continue to read and question!

• 104. LeoPardus  |  July 23, 2009 at 6:29 pm

  Looking:

  Welcome. Glad you found us. It’s precisely for folks like you that this site was made.

  You are indeed right in the middle of the really hard part of the process. Not that you are necessarily going to leave the faith -some have indeed gone back. None the less, where you are right now is a stressful place. So first off, let me say that this stage will pass.

  It sounds like you’re saying your husband is having some of the same doubts/questions. If so, that’s very good. Working this stuff through together is far better than going it alone. Be sure you two communicate plenty on this, but at the same time allow each other plenty of room to pursue thoughts, actions, paths at your own paces.

  Do go ahead a talk to believers whom you know well and trust. At the same time, feel free to talk with people who have different perspectives.

  And for now, don’t worry too much about the guilt feelings. There is absolutely never anything wrong with looking for answers to honest questions or doubts. …. You may however be right about being “condemned” in this life; by people who haven’t the honesty or courage to face doubts or ask questions. But do you really need to be bothered by such people? Nope.

  About atheists going to church: There are various reasons.
  -Some find the services enjoyable, quieting, or familiar. (This is more often the case with liturgical Christians that with most Protestants.)
  -Some go because family and/or friends are there and it makes a good gathering place.
  I happen to fit into the latter category mostly, though the service (the Divine Liturgy of the EOC) is peaceful and meditative.
  Hope that gives you some perspectives on the matter.

  As Quester said, please hang around, read, and ask questions. We’re here to help if we can.

• 105. Tlemasters  |  November 2, 2009 at 4:31 pm

  lauradee24
  Job 2:10 “should we not accept good from God and not adversity.”
  I feel your pain when you talk about the people from your church not accepting you. Please don’t be discouraged by people because they have no authority over our lives. God is the authority and I think he will use your situation for you benefit.
  It is hard to feel Gods presence some times but this does not mean he is not there. How will we grow in faith if God does not leave us to hardship? God has to break us down so he can build us back up stronger than before.
  If you have a shack made out of sticks for a house and you want to remodel it into a bigger two story house, you are not going to build on top of it. You are going to tear it down and start over again because the old shack cannot handle the weight. And when you expand the next time you will tear it down again.
  It takes a lot for people to change their character and when people are given things without working for it (like Gods presence) they take it for granted. In (Genesis 4:9) Cain killed his brother Able. God knew and asked him where Able was. Cain responds “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?” Is this really how someone who knows God personally would talk to God? We cannot handle faith without struggle because we take things for granted, will not appreciate, and are sometimes just plain rude. I know you can see this in other people’s lives today. Poor people who work for their money appreciate the value of a dollar much more than the rich.
  I just want you to know that you ARE loved by God. He knows who you are and he is with you RIGHT NOW. All you have to do is turn toward him and surrender. I feel his presence daily and have seen countless examples of his existence. And believe me when I say I am a critique. I have a really hard time believing anything if I haven’t seen it.
  I really think you should read (1 peter 4:12-13) for yourself. “When the fiery ordeal arises among you to test you, don’t be surprised as if something unusual were happening to you. Instead as you share in the sufferings of the messiah rejoice, so that you may also rejoice with great joy at the revelation of his glory. “
  (1 peter 5:10) “Now the God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory in Christ Jesus will personally restore establish, strengthen, and support you after you have suffered a little.”
  I will pray for you and I hope you will do the same for yourself.

• 106. Jim  |  November 8, 2009 at 5:52 am

  God may or may not exist. It is a choice whether you wish to believe or not. Most people just believe because they were forced to by family. No one should be forced to have faith in anything without be able to analyze WHY. And if God does exist, the Bible’s claims about him very well could be wrong. It could just very well be a story written up by several people; a story that they wanted to be passed down as a prophecy. We need to educate people in critical thinking, how to not fall for fallacious reasoning and things like that.

• 107. Ned Harkey  |  July 9, 2010 at 10:44 am

  In a similar fashion I started questioning my Christian beliefs after viewing the Bill Maher film Religulous. I started searching and researching to see if the facts he delivered were accurate or not and came across a book by John Armstrong called “God vs. the Bible”. His research was so detailed and his argument so strong that any intelligent person who reads his book will be freed from religion. The book can be read for free at the following URL;
  http://www.godvsthebible.com/book

• 108. Seeking the truth  |  November 11, 2010 at 1:55 pm

  I’ve been spending the last 4 to 5 months reading and learning all about atheism, Christian, Islam, Judaism etc… torn between Dawkins and Darwin, Creation or Evolution, Bible, Quran. One god, no god, 3 gods in one entity…

  My searching and journey for the truth and true meaning of life is not finished yet. However, the more I read, the more I learn the more convinced I become that God is there. God exists.

  At the beginning I was so afraid to start this journey. I feared giving up my faith or ending up with believes that are totally different to what I’ve always known. The sooner I started to learn more, I realized how ignorant I was and how little I knew about my religion and about other religions and believes.

  I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything.

  I would just want to ask you to read Quran. Just give it a chance. How could you judge something you never read or learned about? Read the bible, read Dawkins’ books and watch his TV shows. Read and compare – you’ll get there.

  My journey has been very rewarding, very enlightening. I was a muslim and still one. The difference is that I was muslim cause I was born as such but now I’m muslim because I’m convinced to be so.

• 109. BigHouse  |  November 11, 2010 at 2:18 pm

  Seeking, I’d be interested to know what you have learned since undertaking your journey that you didn’t know before, that has solidified your beliefs.

• 110. ACN  |  November 12, 2010 at 12:29 am

  Seeking,

  I’d be interested also, especially since in the months its been since I left christianity, reading thinking etc has led me in the opposite direction as you.

• 111. Joe Baron  |  November 19, 2010 at 1:57 pm

  What do you do with conscience? If you state that you are an atheist and don’t believe in a god or higher power, fine. Nonetheless, what do you do with your conscience with real guilt for something you have done? Guilt is real and must be taken care of whether we simply justify our actions, try to forget, or go and make some form of restitution. I am reminded of the Dateline episode that came out several years ago with Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort debating two atheists about the existence of God. In the end, Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort had their good points (points that I would agree with), but they came across laughable to their debaters and to the crowd. The remarkable thing is that God was proven not through the debate and solid arguments of two solid personalities, but through the response of the atheist debaters. In an interview following the debate, both of them responded that they felt they had been somewhat cruel in their responses to Kirk and Ray. In fact, they went and apologized for their actions and tried to make some mild form of restitution for their actions. This displayed their guilt. The reason they went and apologized is because they didn’t want to go home that night and wrestle with the offense of their own guilt and harmful actions to another.

  This is the essentiality of the cross. The Christian looks at the cross when they begin to feel guilty for past sin. 2 Corinthians5:21 states that “he made him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God”. Naturally, the only response is worship and joy for the gift of the cross and resurrection of Jesus.

• 112. phyllis  |  November 19, 2010 at 4:16 pm

  @lovemoren
  so being descended from a rib or dirt is better then being descended from a chimp?
  @Joe Baron
  I try not to do things I feel guilty about, if I do and I do, I apologize to this person I feel I have wronged. It’s pretty simple really. I still do it without getting a cookie too.
  To me God has nothing to do with feeling guilty, it’s our sense of personal responsibility or sense of right and wrong. Just because atheists don’t believe in God, doesn’t mean they don’t know right from wrong and won’t correct their own actions.
  I’ve also seen Christians who have such a sense of entitlement because they believe themselves to better then the rest of humanity. They have no sense of guilt of belittling a homeless person or anyone else, because they’ve been saved.
  I also know this isn’t the case for everyone. I’ve seen atheist asshats as well as Christians who amazing people and don’t try to convert at every chance they get.

• 113. Ubi Dubium  |  November 19, 2010 at 10:16 pm

  I also have seen many xians who, after doing something harmful to someone else, feel they can totally clear their conscience if they just apologize to god hard enough. No apology to the person who was actually harmed, no attempt at undoing the harm, no attempt at compensation. As an atheist, if I harm somebody, the only way I can clear my conscience is actually to make it up to them. To do something about it myself instead of asking my invisible friend to take care of it. There is no forgiveness coming from anywhere else. That’s also a strong inducement to avoid hurting people in the first place. As Terry Pratchett has said so well: “There’s no justice. There’s just us.”

• 114. Ron  |  June 12, 2011 at 9:58 pm

  Despite my IQ, I got tired of rationalizing Gods existence through complicated proofs, logical loopholes, thought experiments, etc. Instead, I just let the burdening questions in my heart go. Where does a pure relationship with someone start? Between the two. No translations, no word on paper, no love notes. I quit believing in God when I simply asked, “Do you love me?” and if I wanted an answer in any form, it was and is always a feeling of despair.

  And, as someone else pointed out, maybe the OP; I got tired of the same old thing with Christians, also. Like, “I’ve felt really distant from God lately.” Instead of a simple, “Oh, I’m so sorry, lets pray together.” or something of that nature it was always brought down to accusing me of something I had done wrong (and going to church was going to fix that). I’m tired of that. Very few, if any, Christians are willing to have the strength of their faith tested because in reality their beliefs are as tentative as mine. This is a significant weakness in (any) faith because it really does negate the search for something so pure, so clean, so beautiful, and elusive. The truth.

  I don’t know if I can make it without a God. I mean, what are we then? Apes? Sickening, stinky, ultimately selfish, pagan, heathen, animals adhering to the rules of evolution. And with that notion simply looking around you is proof that our species is not getting better. Smarter, perhaps. More intellectual. But some of the worst people were brilliant. And finally, that means that there is no justice, although there should be. I want someone I can call Dad. Someone I can say, “I love you.” and know its not meaningless. I also want belief in someone else’s motive to be the best people/person that I can be because in my humility, I know that as an animal ultimately any move or thought I have is only designed to what, ‘Increase my ability to mate’? Phuck that. Sorry that my post is so late. And. It really doesn’t matter if anyone reads it anyways.

• 115. Ubi Dubium  |  June 13, 2011 at 7:10 am

  @Ron

  “Sickening, stinky, ultimately selfish, pagan, heathen, animals adhering to the rules of evolution”

  Apes aren’t like that. They’re social, creative, and sometimes altruistic, They make war on each other much less than humans do. If you spend some time studying them, you might find they are quite admirable.

  “I know that as an animal ultimately any move or thought I have is only designed to what, ‘Increase my ability to mate’?”

  There’s more to life than that. As a social animal, we are completely dependent on other human beings, and the well-being of the society we are part of affects our own well-being. So although we compete with each other to survive, our survival also depends on our ability to cooperate with one another.

  “Someone I can say, “I love you.” and know its not meaningless.”

  Saying “I love you” to an invisible friend is what is meaningless. No matter how much we might say “I love you” to, Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, we can’t make them any more real that way. If god doesn’t exist, you can’t make him real just by wanting it really badly. Save the “I love you’s” for real people that can love you back.

  Without a god, you have the opportunity to create your own meaning and purpose in life, rather than having a canned purpose handed to you. If we want justice, we have to make it ourselves. Yes, we are animals, the descendents of millions of generations of winners in the struggle to survive. God didn’t put us where we are; we pulled ourselves up by our own bootstraps. And look how far we’ve come, how much we’ve learned and accomplished. We can do so much more if we cast aside the old superstitions that divide us and hold us back, and actually look for truth. Keep using that brain of yours, and insist on answers to your questions that actually make sense.

• 116. Anonymous  |  November 5, 2011 at 12:51 pm

  @The Truth It seems to me that your core argument is based off of the (what you think of as) fact that Faith is men trying to gain power over other men. I’m sorry, but I don’t see that making any sense at all. Organized faith isn’t meant to be domineering or to give certain men any power over anyone else. It is men trying to help other men down the same path of faith that they feel. (also note: Jesus told Peter that he would be the rock on which the Church would be built, (Pope) and that is why being a Roman Catholic is the way to go for me.[otherwise known as it is my FAITH] This was shown to me by other people, but as I learned more about it and studied it for years, I realized this was what I wanted and it was my FAITH, which happened to coincide with ORGANIZED FAITH. Nobody is controlling me in that faith, nor do they have power over me. It’s just me and Jesus. And a few million people who also believe this way.) (P.S. I only lightly skimmed your article, so if some of my observations about your article are wrong, please let me know in a calm and organized manner.) Thanks for sharing all your views, guys! Really enlightening!

• 117. Anonymous  |  January 19, 2012 at 8:50 pm

  Liberals possessing humility? Don’t make me laugh! Liberals, while claiming to be enlightened, educated, and all-tolerant people are often the most bigoted people in the world. The only difference between a liberal and a conservative is that a conservative will go out and admit they hate while a liberal hides their hate (very poorly) behind insults and straw man arguments. Both sides of the political spectrum are equally deplorable.

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