I apologize for how long it’s taken me to respond to you. It’s been a heck of a month, in several ways. Never mind that, to the meat!

clear as mud?

Perhaps moreso than you’d expect. Are you familiar with the concept of panentheism? If not, you might enjoy reading up on it.

but as T4T stated in another post… the WHY of religion is usually never addressed here. namely the HOW and i largely agree that the HOW has been misguided.

Luke, go back and look at the ‘De-converting from De-conversion’ thread. What Justin said, and T4T quoted is “The world’s religions may not very accurately answer the question ‘How?’, but they are definitely on to something in regards to the question ‘Why?’” Do you see how that is a different question than the one you’re asking, and why we might dismiss it?

But you’re right that T4T does touch on a possible why of religion in that thread, to teach how to do community better. The role of religion in a community and what it can do is an interesting topic, and if you read the archives, you will see that it has been discussed here. This may not be readily apparent as the perspective taken is how we can continue to share in the advantages of religion without depending on a non-existent god.

i’m in relation with it, i get glimpses of it.. but largely words and labels fail me. i’m rather apophatic about it.

Ok, I had to look up apophatic, then I had to bang my head against a wall for a while. You practice apophasis, attempting to describe God by negation only, talking about what you believe God is not, but then you are upset when all the conversations about Christianity on this site refer only to what you believe Christianity is not. Do you see the irony here?

oh, and i LOOOOVE Neil Gaiman, one of my fave authors. i’ll have to revisit Good Omens as it’s been a long while since i’ve read it. thanks for recalling a classic!

I thought you’d enjoy that one.

“This God and this Christianity do not have any existence seperate from humans which I can discuss with you. All we can discuss, are the humans.”

you’re right! i can only deal with the result of God, not directy with God. creation exists… we exist. causality is a messy and complex thing, and the tensions found in this world and the inherent paradoxes of being are baffling. so i choose to set my sights on the “here below” than to concentrate them on the “there beyond.” as far as i can tell, the ‘there beyond” view is hogwash and completely unverifiable. i believe that since we’ll all die sooner or later, we’re all going to find out whether there even is a “there beyond” or not. so best not to worry about it.

for me it’s all about relationship. we cannot describe ourselves without talking about relationship. it’s all relational. if i say i’m tall, it means i’m taller than most people in any given room, if i have black hair, it means i do not have blonde, brown, or otherwise. all things are comparative. so to describe God “objectively” in my book is impossible… just as i cannot describe my mom without talking about my relationship with her. nor would i expect others to hold the exact same view, but i would look for similarities. so namely, there is no God if humans were not here.. just as my mom wouldn’t be a mother unless i was here. nature abhors a vacuum, all things are connected. it is my belief that they are connected and called to be in relationship through a creator. this force is not just gravitational and energy fields but something else.. it’s a consciousness we get glimpses of when we view our connectedness, when things “fall into place.” with this view there is no such thing as a coincidence.

clear as mud? cool. moving on.

“We can talk about how you can fly, but what can we say about the feather?”

absolutely! i’m right on the same page with you here. IMV the feather is a tool.. a guiding stick. it’s like a horizon gyro in an airplane. you may be able to fly without one.. i can too. but i find that it helps my flight and keeps me from crashing into others.

where this metaphor gets in trouble is when the feather is dropped in favor of a stick and then instead of using the stick as a gyro, we start hitting each other with it… that is the wrong use. that is what is lamentable about religion is all too often the temptation to wield a guidance tool as a weapon is too great. many have been victims of this on this site… myself included (hence why i’m no longer catholic). but religion isn’t the only weapon.. humans can turn darn near anything into a weapon.. economics, politics, and yest, science supports this as well.. as many ills like nuclear energy didn’t spring from a need to find renewable and sustainable energy.. but for the need to kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible.

but as T4T stated in another post… the WHY of religion is usually never addressed here. namely the HOW and i largely agree that the HOW has been misguided. the why is the community that can be created and sustained through the use of the feather. lifes can be guided, the seasons and rites of passages observed, and where else can you get people to consider new ideas beyond themselves than every sunday in a church? i try to push and infuse my sermons (when i get to speak them) with philosophy and science. try to get people to consider what they haven’t yet considered.. just as you have done here today for me.

i believe in God because i’ve felt something greater than myself that i can’t rationally or logically account for. it drives me batty! i would rather still be selling drywall and making a nice salary in stability as that is something my life sure has lacked.. but there was this urge, this call, to follow something and i’m finding that this is my passion. before that call i was content to be agnostic and just study philosophy… and i was happy there until something grabbed me and threw me into the fray. i’m in relation with it, i get glimpses of it.. but largely words and labels fail me. i’m rather apophatic about it. however, i’m finding that i’m good at this new venture and others seem to benefit, so i’ve dedicated my life to it. as T4T says.. we all like to tell stories. i think they are our greatest hope for our future. that could be my “infectious sense of Hope” talking but i dunno (thanks T4T!)

loooong rant over.. hope it makes an once of sense. thanks for your warm reply Questor. i will ponder it some more.

oh, and i LOOOOVE Neil Gaiman, one of my fave authors. i’ll have to revisit Good Omens as it’s been a long while since i’ve read it. thanks for recalling a classic!

Well written response to Luke. I have had many discussions with Luke and the one thing that stands out for me is his infectious sense of Hope. Maybe the “story” of Jesus is just that, one of Hope. Hope that we can be better and that the glass can be half full. We all like to tell stories, I like the one Luke likes to tell.

You’ve asked, here and there, why fundamental Christianity is the type of Christianity most often discussed in this blog. You’ve expressed displeasure at being grouped in with people that you disagree with when others here talk about Christianity.

Fundamental, conservative and orthodox Christianity are possible to talk about, because these religious views make claims about God and reality that can be discussed.

You, when discussing God, describe God as the force which connects all humans to each other. I’m doubting that you mean this as a force which can be measured, such as gravitational or electro-magnetic forces, but instead as an experienced quality of relationship. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

You use God as a concept to motivate yourself to be a better person. You use Christianity as a language with which to wrestle with decisions on how to live your life. I’m interpreting here, feel free to challenge me.

The God you describe is not one who intervenes in the world. The Christianity you claim makes no statements about how the world is, only what qualities the world can have, if people decide to work towards those qualities as goals.

How do you discuss a God who is a quality of relationship between humans? How do you discuss a Christianity which is a goal of relationship between humans? This God and this Christianity do not have any existence seperate from humans which I can discuss with you. All we can discuss, are the humans.

I have asked you, Luke, to tell me about your God. You have told me about you. I like you, Luke. I’ve read some parts of your blog. You remind me of some of the wonderful times I had at seminary, some of the wonderful people I met, books I read and discussions I had- sometimes talking all night. I like your willingness to push your boundaries. I hope you and your beautiful wife all the best with your coming child.

I’m watching in awe as you flap your ears and fly around the circus tent, gripping firm to your magical feather and your belief in it- if you’ll pardon the reference. We can talk about how you can fly, but what can we say about the feather? You don’t (to totally mangle a metaphor) believe that it’s a literal feather, but a quality of flying.

By the way, you might enjoy one of my all-time favourite books. It’s a fiction novel called Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman.

Sorry for the tangent!

Before this gets any longer, do you understand what I’m trying to say?

Your original response is now above at 34. I did read, and enjoy it. I’ll reply to it later today.