10 Reasons Atheists Are More Moral Than Religious Fundamentalists

May 25, 2009 at 3:02 am 473 comments

While most atheists are faced with answering how they can be moral without a god, I have a list of 10 reasons that the irreligious are morally superior to religious fundamentalists.

In my experience, the bible goes on, especially in the old testament, about how to treat people who are different than you. It’s full of hate and cruelty, with some arbitrary rules thrown in. Only a few of those rules are sensible. The rest are about control. From the little I know of the quran, it’s even worse.

I’m not going to pick the bible (or the quran) apart. It’s not worth my time and aggravation. If you believe that the bible is the divinely inspired word of god, you’re only going to skim this article, find a few points to attack me while you brew up a cup of moral and righteous indignation, and then try to shove your fundamentalism down my throat because you’re scared of people who think for themselves and don’t have blind faith in fairy tales from the Fertile Crescent like you do. You don’t listen anyway, you just find ammunition then viciously attack. What great role models you are. How very christ-like.

On the other hand, if you are truly interested in breaking free of the iron fist of god ruling your life and keeping you in ignorant fear, you can go to the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible and look around for yourself.

The atheists who read this probably have already read that awful book, because as a general rule, we need to be more educated on religious matters than those militant religious folks that try to tell us how we should believe.

So, onto the 10 reasons atheists are morally superior, in no particular order, and my personal opinion about each one:

  1. No god tells me to hate gay people, so I have no reason to hate them. In fact I think if gay people love each other and want to get married, more power to them. Why should we stop love and caring based on gender? I encourage loving and caring any way it manifests itself.
  2. No god tells me that women are inferior and should subject themselves to men. So I’m equal to a man. Except getting spiders out of the house. He can be superior to me in that department. Oh, and opening jars. He can have that one too.
  3. No god tells me to pray instead of seeking medical attention. I believe in all kinds of scientific research and medicine. I even believe in stem cell research. I also think a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body. This probably goes up under the ‘women are equal’ entry as well, because I think it’s ridiculous that an old man I will never meet gets to decide what I can and can’t do with my body. Oh, and euthanasia should be considered an option, although it would have to be properly done so that no one gets murdered. But come on, if life is so freaking precious, why make some sick and dying person go through agony and humiliation and endure countless medical procedures just to stay alive? That’s insane.
  4. No god tells me to hate people who believe in the same god but in a “wrong” way. Ok, that’s just stupid. At thanksgiving dinner my cousin was harassed by the fundamentalist methodists there because she went to 3 different bible camps from 3 different churches. She said, it’s all the same god, why does it bother you so much? I had to agree with her. They’re so hateful and ignorant.
  5. No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s. Also, as noted above, I also believe that mistakes happen, and so do horrible crimes against women. The morning after pill should be available to girls and women who need them to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term. Oh, and back to the ‘be fruitful and multiply thing’. I didn’t even have to have kids in the first place because I’m strong enough in myself that I don’t need some namesake to carry on for me or continue to overpopulate the planet simply because a god said I had to, thousands of years ago. Or worse, I am not starving in some third world country, having babies one after the other for my whole short life because the christians forced their god on me long ago and imposed their ridiculous rules and told us stupid lies.
  6. No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)
  7. No god tells me to start a war over another land having the wrong god or the wrong types of people (see the one above), so I don’t have to support pointless wars that justify some ridiculous ancient prophecy or for other silly reasons, like god talking directly to the leader of my country. (Don’t even get me started on how scary that is. At least he’s gone now!)
  8. No god makes promises to me about being a martyr, so I have no reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a train station or whatever kills the most innocent people.
  9. No god makes open-ended promises that will never come true about armageddon and going up to heaven soon, so I am responsible about the environment, and try my best to have a small impact on the planet, and also support research into making things better for everyone through science and smarter living.
  10. No god promises eternal life to me, so I understand that this life is precious. I take personal responsibility seriously, and I live my life the best way I can because it’s the only one I’ve got. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason.

See, atheists don’t have some god telling them what to do, how to (not) think, how to believe. We think for ourselves. We figure out what’s right based on our life experiences, and hopefully some good role models, then do our best to live good lives, simply because it’s the right thing to do. Also, it’s basic common sense.

Don’t kill or steal, don’t lie or cheat. Why not? Because we’re all part of society, and we have to get along with everyone, at least for the basics, if we want to enjoy the easier life being in society affords us. Not to mention the empathy that we wouldn’t want those things to happen to us, so we don’t do them to others. This is the golden rule and the silver rule, which jesus didn’t come up with first, by the way. It’s a basic human concept, as old as humanity. Oh, and another reason we don’t do bad things?

Consequences and personal responsibility. I drive the speed limit through town because I don’t want a ticket. I understand that there are consequences for my actions, and that I am personally responsible for everything I do.

So with all those warped beliefs not indoctrinated into my mind, along with some common sense, an understanding of some simple concepts of cause and effect and personal responsibility, not to mention being aware of how good life is as a member of society and not in the woods in a cave with a stick, I have no trouble being an ethical atheist, when the only thing that stops christian fundamentalists and muslims from murdering and pillaging is an invisible man in the sky watching their every move, ready to ban them to an eternity of fire and torture because he gave them free will and then won’t let them use it? Huh.

Yeah, I’d say most atheists are definitely morally superior to religious fundamentalists.

- Neece

(cross-posted from HDC)

Entry filed under: Neece. Tags: , , , , , , , , .

Was I saved or brainwashed? Walking away from Christianity gaining in popularity

473 Comments Add your own

  • 1. ArchangelChuck  |  May 25, 2009 at 5:28 am

    Critical analysis of the religion in question will often reveal that fundamentalists cannot be considered moral even by their own standards of morality.

  • 2. almaeda  |  May 25, 2009 at 5:49 am

    I thnk your reason is not good enough. Yau say that no god tell you or give you something. How about your live? how is god taka all the oxygen for our breath? does god tell you how a sperm and ovum become a human being. i think you have to read qu’al carefully. may be if you read a bibble. it will make you confused. because there are a lot of bibble. in my opinion, paus can write the bibble. not god. but if you read qur’an (in arabic) not the citation, you will now that qur’an in arab, and qur’an in amerika is the same word, phrase event in alphabetic. becouse its from god. ond one thing you must know. if you wan to judge a religion don’t lokk from the people. because sometimes people did not do what the religion say. but read the source of the religion. you will find it from qu’an. just read it. in the night. i hope yuo will find the answer. whay you born in this world.

  • 3. neece  |  May 25, 2009 at 5:55 am

    1. ArchangelChuck, I agree, well said.
    2. almaeda, I had a really hard time reading your comment. But god doesn’t exist so I have no idea what you’re on about. Science explains oxygen in the air and how sperm and ova become human beings. There is no evidence of any kind of god, whether allah or jehovah or yahweh, or even zeus. Do you believe in Zeus? No? See, you’re an atheist too, I just believe in one less than you.
    And just read the quran, it’s full of hate and vengeance and doom. If that’s from your god, no thanks, not that he exists anyway.

  • 4. Anonymous  |  May 25, 2009 at 7:04 am

    5. Abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term.

    10. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason

    Yeah, I’d say most atheists are definitely morally superior to religious fundamentalists.

    Me too.

  • 5. Benzion N. Chinn  |  May 25, 2009 at 8:44 am

    I’m not going to pick the bible (or the quran) apart. It’s not worth my time and aggravation. If you believe that the bible is the divinely inspired word of god, you’re only going to skim this article, find a few points to attack me while you brew up a cup of moral and righteous indignation, and then try to shove your fundamentalism down my throat because you’re scared of people who think for themselves and don’t have blind faith in fairy tales from the Fertile Crescent like you do. You don’t listen anyway, you just find ammunition then viciously attack. What great role models you are. How very christ-like.
    I find it ironic that you say that you are not going to go into the Bible in detail and then accuse theists of simply skimming through your article. What a great role model you are. How very atheist like.
    I must say that I also find it ironic that your list of morals has less to do with morality than it is a laundry list of your own political preferences. The inability to see the complexity in political questions is a decent sign, in my book, of a closed mind.

  • 6. universalist1  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:24 am

    @ benzion – you are the one confusing morality with politics.

    @ alameda – it’s a shame your message contains such venom.

    My belief is that anyone has the right to believe what they want. I am a Universalist. I don’t even make the assumption of atheism, yet I allow them to believe what they will. It goes beyond tolerance, it’s about ALLOWING and nothing is more moral than that. It is wrong to oppress or judge anyone for their beliefs. Period.

  • 7. LeoPardus  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:32 am

    Neece:

    Following your previous post, He Is Sailing kindly stepped out of his usual quietness and said that if you kept going the way your post appeared to be going, you would turn into one angry, bitter and resentful atheist. HIS is a very kind, and usually insightful fellow. Please take serious thought to where you are now headed. This post indicates that you are becoming very angry, bitter, and resentful; even I will say, hateful.

    You may do what you will with the comment from HIS, and now from me. I honestly hope you will pull back hard and take a different tack.

  • 8. thegnu  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:37 am

    I think this is a pretty good list. And it’s not worded in an insulting way.

    I would add that you’re more moral than a religious fundamentalist, because they believe that if God didn’t exist, there would be no more morality. Which means that if their God chose to abandon us, you would keep doing what you’re doing, and all the fundamentalists would become bank-robbing pedophiles.

  • 9. Benzion N. Chinn  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Universalist1
    How am I confusing morality with politics? I have not even giving a political opinion. Do you even know what my political beliefs are? All I am arguing here is that morality is something distinct from politics. I believe that issues like abortion and gay rights are more than just one side good and the other side bad.

  • 10. Aruan  |  May 25, 2009 at 11:12 am

    I have to say it’s a good text, but I can’t fully agree with it. Let me explain. Everyone knows for a fact that the bible was manipulated by man, in order to control people with religion. Everyone knows that the christian church, considering by that all those who believe that Jesus H. Crist was the son of god and everything, are arrogant and most likely hateful towards other people that don’t agree with them. However, if you take the first concept of the bible (not caring if there is or not a god), the general idea is pretty good. Love toward the next, growing in life, ethic, care for the family and a bunch of other stuff that the world is in need right now. What I’m saying is, yes, they are a little extreme, but so are you. You care about god just as much as they do, but in the opposite way. And it seems that both sides forgot that god – existing or not- won’t interfere with the world, but real people do. I’d concern myself with them.

  • 11. universalist1  |  May 25, 2009 at 11:54 am

    @benzion: you called her list political, not about morality, that’s how.

  • 12. Brad  |  May 25, 2009 at 11:58 am

    As much as I do agree with you on the subject that atheists are (usually) more in tune with morality, your argument doesn’t really make sense. “I think homosexuality is okay. Religion says homosexuality is bad. I am free to believe that homosexuality is okay therefore atheists are more moral than religious fundamentalists”? It’s circular logic at best, like defining a word with that same word. Not only do the individual reasons make no logical claim, they don’t even support the main claim that atheists are more moral than fundies.

    I see what you’re getting at. your argument as a whole is basically “Atheists have no set of guidelines and are able to freely question morality by themselves. Fundies have a static, unchanging morality written in a book (Bible) that’s not true. Being able to freely question and evolve your morality is better than having a static morality. Therefore, Atheists are more moral than Fundies.” The problem with this is it rests on the claim that what’s written in the Bible is not true, and anyone who believes that what is written in the Bible is false will already agree with the fact that Atheists are more moral than Fundies. Again, I’m on the same page as you, but arguments such as these are pretty pointless, as the only people you will convince are people that already believe what you’re trying to prove.

  • 13. Pastor Bobby Dupree  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Why I know That There is a God and That He Loves Me

    A Personal Testimony.

    Years ago doubt was creeping into my head about the Lord and then a miracle happened.

    Three years ago 100 members of my church were enroute to a bible camp in the Blueridge Mountains of Virginia. They were traveling in a chartered bus. As they sang hymns, Satan was up to his old tricks. You see, the bus driver was an atheist alcoholic socialist and that day he was filling his coffee mug with vodka. As the bus wound up through the switchbacks, the driver got progressively drunker. Then it happened. It was that day that changed this poor sinner’s life forever. Entering a particularly tight switchback, the besotted driver finally lost control of the bus and it plummeted 1500 feet down into a ravine where it exploded into a fireball incinerating the flock. The only survivor that day was a young boy who was thrown from the bus by his father seconds before it hit the bottom.

    This young boy suffered severe brain damage from hitting a rock head first and will have to wear a football helmet and drool cup for the remainder of his life. But his survival proved to me that miracles do happen because God does exist and loves me. The Lord used that accident to bring me back to his flock.

    Hallelujah!

    Praise Jesus! Just open your eyes to his miracles and you will see them everywhere.

  • 14. Anonymous  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:14 pm

    well said

  • 15. reservetwo38  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Your basing your opinion on the idea that there is some kind of moral code, and that we should all agree on your standards. To hell with your standards!

  • 16. steve wells  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    Well I think if the bible thumpers want to believe in these fairy tales to make them feel like a better person go right ahead. But how come they never live up to the morals of the bible? Id rather believe in some guys in white lab coats about where we came from as oppossed to some freak telling me to get up early on Sunday dress up and donate money to man in the clouds and apologize for being human. Clearly we have missed a lot. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. So go ahead believe in Santa, the Easter bunny and chase the rainbow theres a pot of gold at the end of it.
    Noah’s ark Christians actually believe this crap!!

  • 17. Ubi Dubium  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:25 pm

    Wait – the senseless death of 100 innocent “god fearing” people brought you back to your faith? You’ve got to be kidding me! A loving god might have nudged somebody enough to notice that the driver was drinking. A loving god might have nudged the driver to drink a little more, so he’d pass out and not show up for work. There’s all kinds of things “god” could have done here, even without big miracles. And then you say that one boy just barely surviving (with, I’m sure, enormous help from modern medicine), who will have to live with severe brain damage, is a miracle that led you back to belief?

    All I see is another example of “god doesn’t show up”. Not ever. Not even to spare a bus full of true believers singing hymns.

    “Pastor Bobby”, please tell me that your letter is a parody! Please?

  • 18. yobaba  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Brilliant. I will be ‘borrowing’ parts of this.

  • 19. sumguy  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    you’re very skeptical in your analysis of religious people. I agree that atheists can be a lot more moral than certain religious people but you clearly don’t understand that very few religious people behave the way you portrayed them. those that do behave that way think that they are following the bible but they are not. and by the way, using big words does not make you look like you know what you’re talking about.

  • 20. ArchangelChuck  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    @Bobby Dupree: That’s quite possibly the most self-centered conversion story I’ve ever heard. I would say your god is a monster if I thought he existed, but the only monster I see here is you.

  • 21. JMB  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    The whole morality in Athieists thing can be summed up as “I do things because I feel they are right. You do things because your god tells you to.”

  • 22. ArchangelChuck  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:52 pm

    @sumguy: Last time I checked, fundamentalist churches had a huge — and growing — following in the United States.

    I thought the article was perfectly clear, in that the specific case that is being compared against is religious fundamentalism. Fundamentalism in all its forms encourages its followers to lead a selfish, anti-social life (see: Bobby Dupree) and is a socially unacceptable system of belief. To be clear myself, while your run of the mill religious person might be able to separate dogma from deity, the fundamentalist asserts that dogma is deity.

  • 23. yelo  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    Hi Neece,
    I like you article very much.However, I disagree with you on one issue. You claim that there is no God. I do NOT know. The difference is very subtle. We could discuss the question of “why” the world exists, is there anything outside our universe, is our universe the only one, etc. My definition of God is simply “crator” or “cause”. I simply admit my ignorance, but will not stop there. I will try to solve the mentioned problems. Obviously I feel no need to pray, follow “Godly” rules, attend some church, etc. It seems to me that “I” or “ego” is simply a concept, which will vanish with my body. As a concept it is something “unreal”, a mental construct defended strongly by the body – an evolutionary “achievement” which makes us look after ourselves and avoid being harmed.
    Pity, too little space to share more thoughts. Thanks for your great writing.

  • 24. Jim  |  May 25, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    Ubi and Chuck, it was obvious satire.

  • 25. Anonymous  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    I found this Article fairly well written. I also find these comments hilarious! I think you’ve got some excellent points Neece, and I appreciate you saying the things that people don’t want to hear because I, for one, am tired of catching people’s $hit for not being religious.

    “Pastor boy”… you think A bus full of religious people dieing is a miracle from god to bring you back to religion??? I don’t mean to sound snide, but that’s just crazy man!! I mean who in their right mind would actually think an accident of that proportion could possibly be a good thing? You sicken me.

  • 26. Sam  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:03 pm

    The main reason atheists can say that they are moral without god (and maybe even argue that they’re more moral)?

    Number ten plus some; we don’t have a “god” to forgive us, we don’t need the threat of hell hanging over us to force us to behave and we can choose a morality that suits our society.

    The thing is that morality is a social construct supported by genetic impetus to best aid the “tribe” to succeed. The problem with Christian morality is that it is based on an unchanging and unchangeable rulebook. You’ll hear a lot of Christians try to say that you can’t take the Bible 100% as it is because it was written in a time when things like abortions and being gay were dangerous to the society. They’re right… but that comment also points out the ultimate flaw in using Christianity or the Bible as a moral compass for a society that isn’t 100% Christian (which doesn’t exist anymore). If you’re going to make rules based on a moral guide, that cannot be a “pick and choose” sort of thing.

    Currently, our moral guide is the beliefs of the masses. If you remove the influence of religion entirely, I’m pretty sure things like the legality of abortions and the rights of homosexual couples to marry would be upheld by a surprising majority because these things are actually beneficial to our society as it currently is. Teaching contraception to children would probably not even be opposed at all, although of course abstinence would be taught as the ideal.

    Here’s the thing; there’s going to be immoral people in any group because there are always people who don’t have the ingrained wish to further society. These people will gravitate to whatever group suits their wants and needs best. Someone who is manipulative will more likely become religious whereas someone who isn’t probably won’t. Both conning people into killing others and doing it yourself are equally immoral, though. Already religious people approached by a religious bent to killing are more likely to fall prey to the brain-washing, though, and are better able to justify it and “forgive” themselves.

    Religion itself isn’t a problem (for the most part), though. It’s the attempt to fit a centuries old rulebook into a modern-day society’s morality that is. If religions were just preaching conformity to the law and the benefits thereof, they would actually be incredibly useful for those who do need impetus to behave. After all, if you don’t feel guilt, being told that you will burn for stealing might be the thing that registers. The problem is that the religions that were originally created to be another way to enforce the law of the country are now trying to force countries to enforce their laws. Christians themselves will admit that some parts of the Bible are out of date… so why do they then try and enforce some of those antiquated rules on society? Because religious leaders are now trying to act outside their intended scope and rather than enforcing the laws of the society, they are trying to create them.

    And that’s why religious zealots tend to be less moral; because morality is decided by society and not only are they acting outside of society’s morals… they are trying to create new ones (or rather, recreate old ones) that don’t benefit the society.

  • 27. writerdd  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Actually, there are differences in what is considered “moral” and the two groups are not using the same definition. So nobody is right in this discussion because the two groups are just talking past each other and there is no actual communication happening.

  • 28. M  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    @13. Pastor Bobby Dupree

    Most large buses only seat about 50, and your sarcastic comment was just plain dumb beyond that.

  • 29. neece  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:41 pm

    7. LeoPardus, what did I say that made you think I’m angry, bitter or resentful? I express the difference between religious fundamentalists and me as an atheist, and how we get our morals and that makes me angry?

    If anything, being a moral and ethical atheist helps me to be even happier and more appreciative of this amazing world we live in.

    But, it does NOT mean that there aren’t awful things going on in the world, some in the name of religion or gods, and that is unacceptable to me.

    Pointing that out doesn’t make me angry. It means I’m willing to say something that needs to be said and not stick my head in the sand and pretend everything is rainbows and roses.

  • 30. Sean  |  May 25, 2009 at 1:42 pm

    You are more moral than most Christians because you understand your morality is derived not from fear of punishment or from God’s command… but from within yourself and empathy towards your fellow being.

    And you’re beautiful :)

  • 31. LeoPardus  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    Post 13:
    -On the one hand it should be deleted as it’s amazingly offensive.
    -On the other hand it should remain as a testament to monumental stupidity.

  • 32. LeoPardus  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Neece:

    Here is what I’m seeing that sets off alarms:
    -You’re painting with a very broad brush. Only seeing them as hating gays, hating people who look different from them, hating people who don’t believe as they do, and starting wars. You paint people with a big brush that makes them all haters, and you will hate them. (How many times was ‘hate’, ‘hateful’ in your post?) Not healthy at all.
    -Other statements about not caring about others, demeaning women, not seeking medical attention, sex (all of reason 5) indicate a focus on all the worst aspects of religion that you could think of. Maybe this is most of what you experienced. You’d hardly be the first to have that happen to you. But if this is where you are focused, where are you going?

    As a wise fellow said years ago, “What gets your attention gets you.” Your attention seems to be on the worst of religion, on getting yourself utterly away from all religion.

    No, it’s not all rainbows and roses, but neither is it all hatred and ugliness.

    Maybe this is the question to you: If you were challenged to write at least as big an article about the good aspects of religion and religious people could you do it, and how would you feel about doing it?

  • 33. mikebert4  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    I agree with you in almost all respects – bar one:

    I must question your decision to not have children. We need more children who are raised free of the vice of religion, with parents strong enough to appeal against religion being forced on the young in schools. In true Darwinian fashion, we need to do everything we can to perpetuate and spread the skepticism of religion, especially in our children.

    Keep up the good work!

    Mike

  • 34. Ally  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    Not all atheists have respectable moral values and neither do all Christians. It’s silly for you to group us into black and white categories. In my case, as a christian fiance to an atheist man, we are equals. We agree one many issues like how gays should marry and that evolution exists. Not all Christians are as hateful as the old testament wants us to be. Sadly, many Christians are following these outdated rules because nobody has the balls to challenge them or when God calls on us to amend it, our callings wont be accepted by christian society because the bible is viewed as the final and unchanging word of God. Times change and I’m sure God understands this, unfortunately the crazy church goers can’t grasp this concept. Long story short, I’m a Christian, I believe in Jesus Christ and I believe God sent him to die for us. I also believe that God designed evolution and God respects the love between two men or women. You can call me a sinner, agnostic, or whatever but I’m happy in my world. I don’t think atheists are more moral than Christians and I certainly don’t believe we are more moral than Atheists. We are all individuals with our own set of values and we should just respect all people than to cast each other into groups that rival each other.

  • 35. orDover  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    You’re painting with a very broad brush. Only seeing them as hating gays, hating people who look different from them, hating people who don’t believe as they do, and starting wars.

    Not to mention, just to play devil’s advocate for a second here, to say that Christians hate gays or people of different races simplifies the issue almost to the point of making it a straw man. You’re average run-of-the-mill Christian doesn’t hate gays. It might seem like they do to you and me, people on the outside. If they fight so hard against giving them basic rights, how can they not hate them? While I agree that Christians act extremely bigoted toward homosexuals, I can’t say that I think they actually hate them. You have to try to get back into the Christian mindset for a minute. When I was a Christian, I thought that homosexual was wrong. It was a sin. But I didn’t think that homosexuals themselves were evil or worthy of hate. Did you hate homosexuals when you were a Christian? I felt like they were just like all of us. We were all tempted by sin and we all succumbed at one time or another. In the self-deluded Christian mind, making something like gay marriage illegal is actually protecting homosexuals, keeping them from engaging in sin, and most importantly, protecting the world by discouraging the acceptance of the sin because of the fact that it is a sin.

    It’s an issue of bigotry (being 100% convinced that one’s own moral opinion is THE right one and disregarding all others), not a matter of hatred.

  • 36. TJ  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    I agree with what LeoPardus had to say. And I would also like to make a statement of my own.

    This is your reason nubmer 6:
    “No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)”

    Where in the Bible does it say that we should “hate people who look different”? It is simply not there. And Hitler was a Catholic not a “christian”. Catholicism is an equal mixture of paganism and christianity, so you cannot put Catholicism under the label of christianity.
    You are only naming instances where PEOPLE did terrible things in the name of God. Just because someone does something in the name of God does not mean that they have God’s approval.

    God Bless

  • 37. Larjmarj  |  May 25, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    This was the breath of fresh air that I needed today.

    Religious people can believe what they like, it’s when they start to gain political power and legislate their morality in to my life that it becomes truly offensive.

  • 38. Geronimo  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Thank you Aruan, for putting words to my thoughts.

    Also:
    I’m sick and tired of this debate. Both sides are just as stupid.
    You “atheists” call yourselves “free thinkers”, you say that you “think for your selves”, but everywhere you look you see the same quotes and phrasings. You’re all just copying other atheists…
    Nobody gets it, and it pisses me off.

    When humanity finally solves the mystery of life and the universe Theists (who understand the bible) will go “That’s what we ment by God” and Atheists will say “That’s what we ment with ‘there is no God'”.

    Just get along with eachother. For Gods sake, we’re all on the same ride.

  • 39. Samster  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    I agree with TJ. I mean seriously, you guys are stereotyping everybody. Its not very smart idea to say ALL Christians hate gays. I dont mean to sound preachy but It even says in the bible that we shouldnt hate anybody, but instead to love your enemies.
    Furthermore, just because someone says that they are Christian doesnt mean that their actions reflect a Christian belief! That ties in with what you guys were saying about Hitler. He might say hes a christian but you can tell by the way he killed millions of jews (also doesnt make sense cus jews are all over the bible) that he clearly doesnt follow the bible. Heck, i could claim to be an atheist and then secretly worship zues and then decide to go Mecca for the hajj, but then would i be a TRUE atheist?

  • 40. Quester  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    Neece,

    Thank-you very much for posting here. Sometimes, it’s seemed to me, that many of us deconverts agree with each other and share a lot of the same experiences and how we interpret them. This can make the comments threads underneath of posts a little bare of conversation, until we drift off topic (usually in response to a theistic visitor). Besides #13 and the responses to it, this comment thread has stuck rather well to the topic of the article and responding directly to it. Several people agree with you, and several disagree, and it’s making for some interesting conversation.

    When I look at your article, I think the argument you are actually making is not why atheists are more moral than fundamentalists, but why reason and empathy are better guides to ethical decisions than thousand year old myths and personal wills given the primacy of absolute authority via an unreachable source. Some fundamentalists are more moral than others, because they are willing to develop thir emapthy and reason, and be guided by the same. Some atheists are less moral than others, because they assign absolute authority to their personal wills. Either way, those who believe that they are absolutely right, are less likely to be considerate of those around them.

    Again, thanks for the food for thought. I hope we’ll be seeing more from you.

  • 41. Ennui  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Am I the only one getting really tired of watching Atheists stroke their own ego?

  • 42. Jim  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    It is typical for these types of preachy rants to confuse religion, tradition, negative culture traits with Christianity. No one seems to really study something before they think they are an expert on it.

    So lets talk about what it actually says. Christianity/Judiasm teaches that “He has showed you, O man, what is good.
    And what does the LORD require of you?
    To act justly and to love mercy
    and to walk humbly with your God.” Miccah 6:8. This simple statement should be the standard all of us strives for. Be merciful, act justly and be humble. If more of us followed this, we would not have all these disagreements.

  • 43. Heather  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Bobby Dupree, is reciting an old story that’s been floating around the net for years- not only did it in no way happen to him or any members of his church, but th e story itself is completely false.

    I do think most athiests have better morals than christians, but it certainly can’t be said that atheists in general have better morals. there are plenty of atheists who are racists, homophobes, etc, but being atheist means that you don’t have to follow the hate of the bible- you can choose to be moral or not, just remember that some choose not.

    and to the comment “hitler was catholic not christian”- you moron, catholics are christians. you understand the definition of christian, yes? That you believe Jesus was the christ, the son of god? Yeah.. they believe that too. You might as well say lutherans aren’t christian or methodists.

  • 44. captainrads  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Religion isn’t the only reason third world countries have such high birth rates. They’ve also got high infant death rates. Old age security is also a factor, along with having free labor. Their cultural ideas that a son is best also plays into it, though that may be going into their religious ideals.

  • 45. Sean  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:39 pm

    What can be safely said about ALL Christians is they derive their morals from an authority (God, The Bible, etc…). If God said “Kill everyone you love and torture animals” it would be the moral thing… and if you disagree then maybe God’s not where you get it. Aside from the fact that Christianity is illogical, irrational, historically explainable and it’s persuasiveness is psychologically understandable, it does NOT provide good morals. The Old Testament is vile and the New Testament is just as bad. It is disgusting to think that eternal suffering awaits all who could not force themselves to believe something which our minds naturally hold, at best, improbable, and, for the more intelligent, idiotic.

    To Geronimo- No, not all atheists and theists will be coherently able to make claims to have been accurately representing the truth when and if it is ever discovered definitively. It would be a time very similar to right now. Science is explaining more and more while religion is grasping at whatever they can. Assuming we have an answer for everything and science can explain the entire cosmos… all a person of “faith” has to do is the thing they do best, ignore evidence and believe in God anyway (as “faith” is belief without evidence). Baal himself could come down and say “I am God and everyone who worshipped Yaweh and Jesus is going to hell for blindly following history and society (other humans) without looking inside themselves for truth and goodness and being skeptical…. and Christians would still claim they were right… because when you have “faith” (belief without evidence)… anything is possible!

  • 46. Benzion N. Chinn  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Universalist1
    If we cannot say that this post mixes confuses politics with morality than we lose our ability to say that Christian fundamentalists confuse morality/religion and politics. As someone who takes his duty to defend our liberal values against the threat of religious fundamentalism seriously this is a problem. We have our general moral principles. Take for example the respect for life. This is a principle that people across the cultural spectrum claim to believe in. How do we put this value into practice? Religious fundamentalists want to draw a straight line between respecting life and banning abortion. The logic being that if you respect life than you would be willing hand a fetus, or those who choose to stand in as its advocates, a blank check to control the decisions of the mother. I think we can both agree that the situation is a bit more complex. We both, I assume, respect life. That being said we recognize that besides for the life of the fetus there is also the life of the mother, whose health needs to be protected, and whose life for the next nine months plus eighteen years is going to be heavily affected. We recognize that reasonable people are going to go about balancing this issue in different ways and that there is no clear cut right answer that we can cast off as immoral anyone who does not follow our exact line.

  • 47. Quester  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:51 pm

    Where did all the first-time posters come from all of the sudden?

  • 48. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 3:58 pm

    There is no god. Get over it.

    You religitards arguing for your cause do know that you’re devoting your entire lives to stories scribbled down by primitive people (which were translated, then retranslated, then mistranslated, etc etc ad infinitum) who didn’t understand how the universe worked, right? They thought everything revolved around them. How pious. (/sarcasm)

    It’s you fearing your own mortality. You just cannot accept the fact that you’re born, you live, you die, and that’s it. You can’t accept the fact that you’re finite.

    See Bill Maher’s “Religulous.” 3000 years before Jebus’ supposed existence, there was an Egyptian ‘god’ who always was persecuted, also had 12 followers, also was martyred, and also rose from the dead after 3 days.

    Religion = control. Control over people who were indoctrinated since birth by their also-brainwashed parents, people who are afraid to think for themselves and would rather be mindless followers than free-thinking individuals. You’re probably catholic because the catholic church waged wars against anyone different from them (“crusades”) and offered 2 choices: convert, or die.

    I was sent to catholic school for 12 years: AP algebra, AP pre-calc/trig, AP calculus, 2 years AP bio and 2 years AP chem. I also played tenor sax the first 3 years. Oh, and … religion, required each year, which insulted my intelligence.

  • 49. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Quester: “Where did all the first-time posters come from all of the sudden?”

    Probably stumbleupon. (stumbleupon.com) That’s how I got here.

  • 50. Geronimo  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Sean, I will not comment as much as I would like, because (just as in the theist vs atheist debate) we will just end up arguing semantics and splitting hairs. I’m to tired for that crap.

    I made a point of writing “theists (who understand the bible)” (christians.. whatever) because I was talking about people who don’t take the bible litterally, but rather see it for what it wants to say (or perhaps what “Jesus” really ment)

    But what I’m saying isn’t that impossible.
    for example we can use the big bang (God). Big bang (God) Created everything, Big bang (God) is in everything, it is the air we breath and the water we drink (so on, so forth).
    Not saying that this is what I really believe.. Just saying that it isn’t impossible ;p

  • 51. .  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    Sounds about right.

  • 52. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:12 pm

    Ennui | May 25, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    Am I the only one getting really tired of watching Atheists stroke their own ego?

    No, that’s you not having a leg to stand on.

  • 53. Quester  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    In reference to #48, I again offer kudos to Neece. I found this site through StumbleUpon myself, more than a year ago, but you’ve really inspired a lot of response from those who’ve Stumbled by.

  • 54. Anonymous  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    fuck you all for arguing about something so trivial.

  • 55. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    52: “fuck you all for arguing about something so trivial.” It’s hardly trivial considering the millions who have been killed in the name of ‘god’ (allah, etc).

    And what a thoughtful and insightful post you made. Your parents must be so proud of you.

    “How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think.” -Hitler (did i just godwin the thread?)

  • 56. laserjesus  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:38 pm

    Keep in mind here she is talking about religious FUNDAMENTALISTS, not all religious people. I see A lot of comments confusing this, and that pastor satire comment was great, loved the article. This man’s comment as well really put a nail in the coffin.
    You are more moral than most Christians because you understand your morality is derived not from fear of punishment or from God’s command… but from within yourself and empathy towards your fellow being.

  • 57. billdave  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:40 pm

    I’m an atheist who agrees that for modern people in democratic societies, rationalism is a superior moral source than religious doctrine. I teach the Bible so I have a bias, but referring to it as a dreadful book and claiming that it comes from the fertile crescent is a bit wrong-headed: the most important part of the christian bible is philosophy from first century Judea, and letters from the same general area.
    More to the point, it seems to me that rationalists are doomed to footnote status if they can’t state their moral code (generally utilitarianism and existentialism) without bashing and validating authoritarian religious morality by using it as a basis for comparison.
    The article was a bit of “preaching to the choir” if you’ll pardon the expression, but since I’m a member of the choir, i enjoyed it all the same. Thanks!

  • 58. Eric  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:43 pm

    My god told me that you’re HOT!

  • 59. Luke  |  May 25, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    ya know… as much as i don’t like claims of superiority, i think you’re right on the money here. as Jose Miguel Bonino states “only an atheist can be a good Christian… as they don’t have all that baggage and claims to moral superiority hanging around their necks.”

    hopefully one day my fellow fundie brothers and sisters will wake up and see the harm and hypocrisy they’re spreading around… but i’m not holding my breath. and thanks for this site for showing the harm caused. great stuff!

  • 60. Stemcellman  |  May 25, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    I grew up in a “Catholic” household.
    My brother and I were forced to get up early on Sunday and go to church (Latin Mass).Wafers and wine, The whole nine yards!!
    One Sunday my yonger brother said to my father,Why are we doing this?????, My father said Gee I don,t know.
    It was a tradition with him and his 14 brothers(Hmmmm looks suspiciously Catholic to me!)
    Needless to say,We evolved into Nontheists soon after that.

  • 61. DILLIGAFFUM  |  May 25, 2009 at 5:54 pm

    No god ever told me anything. If he had I would probably believe in Him. You know God? Tell him I’m waiting, but I’m not about to start looking for Him. He’s the omnipitent one, I just have the internet.

  • 62. Rover  |  May 25, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    I realize that we Christians do have a problem when it comes to asserting that we have the corner on morality. I hear it at my church all the time. My fellow
    Chrisitians are astonished when I point out to them that in the Old Testament God was ok with sex slaves, mass murder and lying Spirits. I wish that there was a Christian out there who could harmonize the moral aspects of the OT with those of the NT, but I don’t think I will find one. However, I do not like being painted as someone who “hates” simply because I am a Christian. I disagree with gays but I do not hate them. I am the head of my home, but I respect and love my wife with a passion. I do see where you are coming from, but not everyone in the church is like that. Sure there are some who do fit that description, but I am sure there are some atheist who don’t like gays and treat women as inferior. Anyway, I enjoyed your article.

  • 63. Javi  |  May 25, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    I’m an atheist and agree with your points.. except for number 5.
    Evolution is what’s guiding people to reproduce.
    I suppose some people (in developed countries) use the bible to justify having 10 kids when they clearly can’t afford to.. but nevertheless the process itself is guided by evolution not by religion.

  • 64. Jaxtapose  |  May 25, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    So, in summary you could have just said “Atheists aren’t told who to hate and who to love. They derive all of their morals on their own.”

  • 65. Sean  |  May 25, 2009 at 7:38 pm

    Rover- It’s not necessarily that atheists and skeptics paint you as someone who “hates” simply because you are a Christian, but that you are someone who is letting an ancient myth make important decisions for you. You said you don’t hate gay people but instead “disagree” with them. And also, in regards to your wife you claim you are the head of your home but you still “love and respect her.” I have to say, both statements are somewhat ambiguous. I disagree with communists, not because someone else told me to, but because I’ve seen evidence regarding what communism does to a society and have many reasons to support it’s negative impact upon my fellow person. You “disagree” with gays and, I’m assuming, would vote against their right to marry whereas I would not even think of voting against a communist members write to marry. When you say you’re the head of your home… what exactly does that mean? Is your wife aware of this? If she has agreed to said arrangement then it’s somewhat more tolerable I suppose but the treatment of women as inferior should be a thing of the past. Men and women are, for all intents and purposes, equal (social constructionism aside).

  • 66. Heather  |  May 25, 2009 at 8:27 pm

    First time posters are coming from reddit.com

  • 67. Top Posts « WordPress.com  |  May 25, 2009 at 8:49 pm

    [...] 10 Reasons Atheists Are More Moral Than Religious Fundamentalists While most atheists are faced with answering how they can be moral without a god, I have a list of 10 reasons that the [...] [...]

  • 68. youngearth  |  May 25, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    The Bible says “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. Christians just recognize that they are sinners like the rest of man and woman kind, and they turn away from sin, and turn their lives over to Jesus. You know about the golden rule. Jesus said “love your neighbor as yourself”. That sums up keeping the entire law of God. All that remains is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Christians are only able to do this (sometimes) by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yield to Him and he will transform your life in a most rewarding and positive way.

  • 69. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Hey youngearth.

    The bible is fiction and is proof of NOTHING!

  • 70. Frreal  |  May 25, 2009 at 9:39 pm

    Uuggh. ” Let Me Count the Ways I’m Better Than You”

    Sanctimonious. Arrogant. Immature. Angry. You seem to have issues with religion that really should be dealt with off the blog portion of this site. The anti theism I detect in your posts is really off-putting, and in my opinion does a disservice to the truly valuable content this blog has provided me and every single one of its contributors which up until now have been extraordinarily intelligent, reasonable and insightful during my own deconversion.

    I think you just have some growing up to do or you perhaps you need a more appropriate venue to discuss your kinds of topics.

    I couldn’t agree with Leo and HIS more. You need to deal with your issues. Please don’t bring the anger here.

  • 71. yelo  |  May 25, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    Youngearth, the strength of your persuasion is ZERO.
    First time posters also come from firefox “stumble upon”.

    I have been thinking a lot about how widespread religions are and how immune believers are to pure logic. Pure logic tells me: “I don’t know whether God exists. I suspect there is some “reason” behind the existence of this universe, but at the moment I don’t know what it is.” It is very painful NOT TO KNOW, therefore, most people fall into the trap of beliefs, because faith gives them the ILLUSION of knowing. Conclusion: religions will never vanish from the minds of Homo sapiens. We are a COWARDLY race. Perhaps only if/when we evolve and our brains comprehend more and function differently, then shall we be able to see the reality as it is.

  • 72. phillydrifter  |  May 25, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    You would rather live in fear of eternal punishment and justify your actions by that fear; I’m too smart for that. God must be an extremely jealous entity to subject people to punishment simply for not believing in him, even though he has offered ZERO proof of his existence.

    Those early myths were written because PEOPLE COULDN’T EXPLAIN SHIT! So they wrote morals trying to teach people ‘dont steal, dont kill,’ they were trying to instill morals.

    I don’t need to fear some supernatural deity in order to control my actions; I have morals. Moreso, I refuse to live in fear. Think about what you’re saying. You’re *only* following those rules because you fear the punishment. So what you’re saying is, if you were never indoctrinated since birth by some stupid nonsensical customs, you’d be out murdering and raping, is that what you’re saying?

  • 73. noticiaspr  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    God bless you. Hope you behave correctly. I disagree in your 10 reasons. God exists, but you only can find him in your prayers. I will pray for you all days, because I know God loves you, even thou you don´t.

  • 74. glanceskyward17  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    God is love. It’s a matter of accepting it, or slanting a handful of Biblical passages.

    God said that homosexual behavior was wrong and immoral. He did not say to hate those who are gay, or question themselves in that regard.

    Christians who ‘hate’ gays are mistaken themselves. Sure, we may view it as a sin, but, a sin is a sin right? There is no ranking; no BCS system of sorts to claim one is more wrong than the next.

    If Christians followed the pattern of hating gays, and applied it to their daily perception (judgement, in a sense) then we would condemn anyone who lies, steals or ignored their parents. Talk about a lot of unneeded hatred…

    Perhaps it’s obvious, that I believe in God, and am a Christian. Those who don’t see eye to eye with me, this is probably and ‘apples to oranges’ kind of thing. [sorry] For any Christian who might stumble upon this post; don’t hate gays, or any other group for that matter. People will always disagree; Christain should always love. As the expression goes, ‘Love Wins.’

  • 75. Jonathan B.  |  May 25, 2009 at 10:58 pm

    Philly, your post is not helping support the idea that Atheists are more moral…

  • 76. yelo  |  May 25, 2009 at 11:49 pm

    Those religious individuals who post here are a perfect example of being blind, deaf, insensitive and 100% interested in pushing the vision of their righteousness in front of their own eyes. There is absolutely no communication between both groups. Either you honestely admit that you don’t know (agnostics and atheists) or you subscribe to some delusional nonsense.

    If one billion people claim something, this does not make the claim true. You religious bigots are a monumental monument of human stupidity. I am ashamed to be human.

  • 77. The de-Convert  |  May 26, 2009 at 12:21 am

    Cleaned up some of the comments that were disrespectful to our readers. Sadly, on an open forum, these things happen.

  • 78. ozatheist  |  May 26, 2009 at 1:32 am

    @ 67. youngearth
    The “golder rule” was invented long before jesus supposedly came along. Sin is a construct of religion, humans are not born with “sin”.

    What a lot of Christians don’t realise is that by supporting the god myth they are supporting the fundamentalists within their religion. What is somewhat annoying are the numerous “christians” that accuse other “christians” of not being “true christians”. You all (supposedly) believe in the same god and bible, so until you all either:
    a) decide that god is a myth and the bible is just a bunch of stories; or
    b) decide exactly what god is, how you should worship it, how the bible should be interpreted, etc and all stick to the one idea;
    none of your so-called arguments for god, the bible, sin, moral authority etc etc can be taken seriously.

  • 79. Stumbler  |  May 26, 2009 at 1:56 am

    I somewhat agree and somewhat disagree, as most would. I’m not saying all Christians are the hateful bible thumpers as portrayed by most agnostics/atheists but each and everyone of them are hypocritical. They all believe in their one religion, and thus by believing in their religion; they are saying every other religion is false. And everyone who believes these other religions are going to hell.

    Now how does a child who believes in another religion deserve to go to hell? Especially if he or she was raised by their family to think and believe like this, same as the many branches of Christianity.

    Another self-defeating concept that Christians argue is that how could the universe just BE? There HAS to be something that created it! The universe couldn’t have magically just appeared. Someone must have to have created it. And, the one who magically created it; God, but of course. But then how could God just have existed? Shouldn’t something have created him?

  • 80. tradersam1  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:13 am

    Hi. New to your blog. I have a friend named Loren, as devout an atheist as you will ever find. I love her with my whole heart. not because she is void of a sense of religiosity, but because of her innate goodness. Yes. I would agree with you that most religious fundamentalists are inherently bad on the face of what the profess and what they practice. I have also known men and women who were believers, thinking, rational, and Christ centered, eschewing the traditions of the Old Testament, as many Christians understand they should, who can only be describes as beatific. I like what Ghandi said, “The only devils in this world are the ones running around in our own hearts.”
    I am in midlife now, and I have been truly delighted that everywhere I have looked for good, I have found it. Good luck to you whatever you may work in your life to give in meaning and happiness.

    TraderSam

  • 81. Unhwa  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:13 am

    Wait, the title of this is “10 Reasons Atheists Are More Moral Than Religious Fundamentalists”. This prase is a complete contradiction. How can you say you are moral when you judge a whole group of people to be one thing? Yes, there are nuts in religion who contradict themselves all the time and treat people who are immoral in immoral ways. But then again, its the same for atheists. It just doesn’t make sense.

  • 82. joshuakmiller  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:15 am

    You have a lot of interesting questions and seem to have thought about them with quite some depth. Fee free to send me an email miller.joshuak@gmail.com if you wanna dialogue about this some more. I spent 4 years of Bible college to know what I do now. Ttyl — Joshua

    In the meantime check out http://www.carm.org/ for further in depth study. Thank you

  • 83. Kevin  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:18 am

    Excellent article, Neece. I enjoyed reading it.

  • 84. koolgs  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:18 am

    Well said Neece!

  • 85. Aisosa  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:21 am

    No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s.
    DARLING THATS CRAP>>> if human beings can clone flies and travel to space, im quite sure we can control our drive for sex…don’t speak for teenagers who know way better than anyone else why exactly they remain virgins..and are not compelled by your ‘free thinking’ to lose all morals and act like animals.
    im not attacking..just saying that if u want to attack people for their faith and beliefs, do from your POV.. don’t include others.
    OH AND BY THE WAY, be fruitful and multiply, was given to the first man and woman on earth..please note they were married..and except every time you have sex, it’s with the view of having children..then this is not a valid point.

  • 86. eco(austrsalia)  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:21 am

    i’m sorry i will have to add more later.

    Of course, it’s populist to be atheist.

    Anyway JUDGES chapters 19 & 20. Please read it. Most peopole mentioning homosexuals don’t even know it’s ther – in black & white!!!

    Homosexuality is not natural at all. But it is great if you’re an entertqiner eg ELLen & Portia.

    Journos love scraping at Christians too.

  • 87. andydbrown  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:27 am

    And your morality comes shining through!!! NOT! You simply spew out your own ignorant opinions as if they are fact. You are not able to see through the thick cloud of your own pride and arrogance. Everyone has their own opinions (suppositions/guesses). I think I’ll stick with God’s revelation rather than your clumsy, hateful and ignorant opinions and “insights”. God gives grace to the humble but dishes nothing but the law to proud folk like you. I really feel sorry for the people that are actually in your life as people like you tend to be more sarcastic, self-centred and proud in person than they even are on-line!

  • 88. writingkeeda  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:28 am

    This is an awesome article. Needed in India. Although here, atheism is generally connected to communists and therefore shunned. I mean i am not that religious myself. but these rules certainly seem to make sense. More than rules, I think its the knowledge that there are a set of rules that we could follow, the sense of direction that is still appealing to people. maybe to help them with insecurities in life. religion turns out to be one of the responses of individuals to problems in life. Of course, when it goes out of hand, it becomes dangerous.

  • 89. pochp  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:29 am

    I don’t endorse atheism but I see this post as true.

  • 90. Aisosa  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:29 am

    This blog attempts to critically, but respectfully…..

    If you are a de-converted Christian or a Christian with a healthy dose of skepticism towards the teachings of Christianity ….

    You guys are just wayyyyyy confused.

  • 91. unrealsanity  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:31 am

    You just became a fundamentalist yourself and therefore like any other, religious or not. You fall in the same category which is kinda of funny as you are critcizing who you are actually.

    Your reasons werent good enough. You have a point but you couldnt elaborate better on that.

    Also, let’s fairly assume that the world nowdays is ruled by a secularist majority therefore pretty much atheist. I havent seen any considerable improvement. The World is in such chaos and your first reason is ” to love gays” ?

    Man, that’s funny.

    Cheers

  • 92. pantheraleo  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:32 am

    I liked your ten points, all of them. However, you are wrong in one thing. You do not have to be irreligious or atheist to believe what you do. I have my own beliefs, call it religion, composed of fragments of buddhism, american indian mythology and physics. I believe there is something out there, a force or energy, that is in everything living. You could call it a God (or Goddess, if you prefer). Therefore, I am not irreligious or atheist. Yet, I agree with you on all points!

  • 93. Cameron  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:37 am

    Neece, you’re being closed minded to those who might present a consistent and fully Biblical Christian worldview, and only considering Christians who jack up the truth for their own agenda. I could do the same with atheists but that doesn’t lead anyone to the truth.

    You say you’re a moral atheist. Where do you get a real morality where things are really right and really wrong which you are really accountable to? If you don’t have one, or can’t even account for one theoretically, then all is permissable and you’re holding on to the idea of “morality” like a fairy tale.

    Scripture actually accounts for why atheists can do this as they are created in God’s image and have a moral compass.

    I have so many things to say to your fundamentalist atheistic responses, but I wont get into it all.

    I will touch on point 4 and 5. With point 4, if there is only one God, and He is holy, and He is eternal, and He is the truth, then to say He wasn’t the truth would be a lie and would be wrong and would be sinful. It would be out of love for Himself and to us to tell us that He is the truth. Jesus said He was the Truth.

    With point 5, God created sex. Having sex with animals and relatives is also fun for some people. We label them as sick and put some of them in jail however. God goes further, since He is the perfect judge, and says that all sex outside of what He designed it for is a slap in the face of His goodness and purpose. God is going to listen to Himself and not take the opinions of selfish sinners who are hostile to Him and want Him to do differently. If you want sex to be for something different, then go create your own planet.

  • 94. bloowalrus  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:46 am

    I disagree. : ]

  • 95. mauricez  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:48 am

    >I’d say most atheists are definitely morally superior to religious fundamentalists.
    While it has quite some truth in itself, saying such thing gets us just one step away from starting to consider religious people inferior and worse. I unfortunately had the ‘pleasure’ to meet quite a few persons who acted like that and for me, not as an atheist or religious person, but as a relatively intelligent human being it was a torture to listen to said people, and their baseless hate and anger towards religion. Look closely at your actions and thought to not turn into a religion racist.

    Second thing, something I did not like in commentaries, calling religion “A Myth” or saying things like “God does not exist get over it”. Maybe it’s just me, maybe, but in my humble opinion it shows a great deal of disrespect to people you talk to. That’s exactly what I mentioned in the above paragraph.

    See, it was supposed to be about Religious Fundamentalists, but at some point it turned into crucifixion of all religion-related stuff by, among others, repeatedly offending their religion.

    Anyway, putting aside the comment’s part, which is a great waste of time to read, the post has some fine points, as long as we remember that we are talking about Fundamentalists (otherwise it’s a bunch of crap and other suspicious ingredients).

    I think all should convert to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and all humanity problems would disappear.

  • 96. Truth Seeker  |  May 26, 2009 at 2:51 am

    For question No. 10, do atheists ponder and think for a second just where they may end up when their life comes to an end and they are lowered to 6 feet under? Simple question cause i’ve always wondered what your views on that are?

  • 97. Shooting Blanks  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:04 am

    From the original post and the comments so far, there’s one central point that I have to disagree with.

    I don’t accept the argument that personally crafted morality is in any way superior to codified morality.

    While I certainly appreciate critical thought, and prefer beliefs which are carefully chosen (not blindly accepted), I don’t see how ownership even comes into a question of morality.

    If I were able to rationalize within myself a way that life should not be held sacred, the fact that I came to this new conclusion on my own doesn’t make it any more or less morally right than if the Devil made me do it.

    Everything is debatable. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a “correct” answer to our moral questions, and it’s not a blank check we can use to pull our morality off the top of our heads.

    The choices we make have consequences for ourselves and countless others within our influence, and living righteously means that whether the basis for our morality comes primarily from within or without, it requires constant thought and attention.

    It must not be taken for granted.

  • 98. Aisosa  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:04 am

    I replied your blog, as decently as possible. :)

    http://aisosa.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/reasons-why-i-3-being-a-christian/

  • 99. Aisosa  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:05 am

    http://aisosa.wordpress.com/2009/05/26/reasons-why-i-3-being-a-christian/

    REASONS WHY I LOVE BEING A CHRISTIAN

  • 100. nathanpsmith  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:14 am

    I totally agree with your comments and hang my head in shame whenever I see people who declare themselves to be Christians acting in the way you have described. I hate the fact that Gods loving guidance is twisted and used as justification for hatred and cruelty. These people do not represent God but merely use their twisted interpretation of His word to promote their own causes. I only hope you can look past our human failings and it doesn’t stop you seeking a revelation of God for yourself. Trust me it is not how its too often portrayed!

  • 101. twispious  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:14 am

    you must be the 12-year old with the biggest vocab i’ve met

  • 102. al-Fahmi  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:50 am

    how do you describe your self? who are you? what is your objective in this life? do you think this is a true life for you? You see some people sleep on the night in some romantic or any great house or hotel, but another sleep under the sky every night, many people killed by desease, war and others. They can’t enjoy this life like you today, although some of them are good people. Where is the justice of this life without God?? God bring us a freedom of live with the wishdom, holybook, prophet to ensure we life as a human, not to kill each other, life with peace. I think the riot that happened in this word is caused by those who do not have God in his life.

  • 103. GodKillzYou  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:01 am

    According to the logic that “people wouldn’t behave if there weren’t a god,” the only reason murder is bad is because God said so. I find this appalling.

    There are REAL reasons for murder being wrong. And they aren’t because some invisible wizard just happened to decide that it’s wrong. It’s wrong regardless of God’s opinion on the matter.

  • 104. Heather  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:20 am

    I read the post with interest. I am a practicing atheist (to the extent that you can practice not believing in something) and I understand the point you’re trying to make…But…

    BUT (and remember that I’m on your side when I say this), your attitude towards religious people exhibits an alarming amount of prejudice and animosity (almost bordering on hatred) towards people who are religious. This seems to contradict what you claim about moral superiority, and is frankly a bit nasty.

    I believe, (for the very reasons you stated in your post) that we are all entitled to lead full and happy lives being free to believe what we want without fear of bigotry and persecution. I’d hate to think that atheists are just the next generation of fundamentalists out to crush all those who believe differently to themselves. That is not what I aim to achieve in my life.

    Naturally there are ethical questions that I struggle with around raising children as one religion or another, before they have the power to choose for themselves; and with religious justifications for denying freedom through medical treatment, euthanasia or abortion. But my issues with these broader problems will still not cause me to stoop to the level of mass animosity towards an entire group of people due to their association with these things – pretty sure they call that bigotry!

  • 105. Michelle  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:25 am

    I feel so sad that I believe in God and yet agree with way more atheists than I do Christians. It would be nice if religious people were at least equal to atheists in morality and intelligence, but they’re not. A good number of studies have all shown that the higher your IQ, the less likely you are to be religious. So not only are they often immoral, but their lack of intelligence makes them more dangerous. It’s so hard for me to keep believing in God. I keep struggling with it because there is too much that doesn’t make sense. What those of us who believe need to understand is that WE MIGHT BE WRONG. If we are free to worship God, everyone else should be free to worship nothing at all or any other God they want. Evolution is as proven as any theory can be. God is not. Logically, we (believers) are probably wrong, yet I still feel a presence… but I could just be imagining it. I don’t believe I am, but it’s a BELIEF, and beliefs can always be wrong. No matter what, even a Christian or Muslim should base their morality on what they see and what society needs, and not a really old book that contradicts itself.

    What REALLY pisses me off is people who say “hate the sin, love the sinner.” My ass. You cannot hate someone’s homosexuality, which is a fundamental part of who they are, which defines them in many ways, and yet still love them. It’s like saying “I hate that you’re black because it’s wrong, but I love you anyway… and I’m not letting you get married.” What???

    I used to be a fundamentalist but I’m just too intelligent for that. I cannot love a being that I fear, and you have to fear God to be a fundamentalist. Fear is connected with hate, not love. And Noah’s ark… kind of the clincher, don’t you think? Anyway. The point is, I do believe in God. I pray. I think Jesus really did exist. I also believe in the existence of global warming, legalizing gay marriage, and safe and legal abortion. I do not go to church because, basically, it sucks. And I believe it is not my job to make anyone else believe in God but to be there for them myself in any way possible. I also don’t believe in Hell. I cannot love a God who would burn any of his children in a lake of fire for all eternity. I don’t know if this life is the only one I have or not, but I do know that future generations need us to make this planet better for them, and I know atheists are doing a much better job of that than most Christians. It’s not that I don’t know and admire some Christians in my life- I absolutely do- but they’re not fundamentalists.

  • 106. Quester  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:26 am

    After reading all these comments, I feel like resurrecting the driveby scorecard. Feel free to play along at home! Scoring multiple times in a category provides a cumulative score. Maximum score = 120pts.

    Grammar, syntax and punctuation-
    1pt. Simple typos, other simple errors.
    2pts. Multiple exclamation points.
    3pts. Randomly capitalized WORDS.
    4pts. “Quoting” certain “words” for “emphasis”.
    5pts. L33T SPe4k!!!!1!11

    Scripture quotes-
    1 pt. New Testament
    2 pts. Old Testament
    3 pts. Both Testaments, or non-Christian Holy scripture.
    4 pts. King James only.
    5 pts. Contradicts the quoted scripture with the rest of the content of the post.

    Once was lost, now is found-
    1pt. Used to use mild swears and ogle underwear models.
    2pts. Abused alcohol.
    3pts. Abused drugs.
    4pts. Abused people.
    5pts. Recovered any of the above with no withdrawal symptoms or other negative, lasting consequences.

    I’m not a typical Christian-
    1pt. Christianity is not a religion, it’s a relationship.
    2pts. I’m bothered by the hypocricy of the church.
    3pts. The Bible does not contain facts, but it does reveal truths.
    4pts. The Christian message is a poetic guideline of how best to live life here and now. There is no afterlife; this world and this life, properly understood, is the Kingdom of God.
    5pts. It’s not actually possible to explain how my worldview has anything to do with any even vaguely comprehensible description of Christianity ever heard of, but I insist I am a Christian (or Christ-follower).

    Jesus saved me-
    1pt. From my sins.
    2pts. As the tragedy I suffered could have been worse.
    3pts. I am a survivor of abuse.
    4pts. The doctors say it was a miracle.
    5pts. My salvation was a free gift of grace. Others are not saved in the same way because of something they have done or failed to do.

    Confessed ignorance-
    1pt. I don’t know why the world is the way it is.
    2pts. I don’t pretend to understand this science stuff.
    3pts. I don’t understand why scripture portrays God as evil.
    4pts. I don’t actually have a reason to believe in God.
    5pts. I don’t know why you don’t immediately agree with my baseless speculations in spite of my declared ignorance.

    Still, I know you better than you know yourselves-
    1pt. You were never really a Christian.
    2pts. You are not really an atheist.
    3pts. You were betrayed by a religion or the religious.
    4pts. You want to worship yourself.
    5pts. I show some sign of having read the Convenient categories post, and still try to employ one of the convenient categories.

    Sign off-
    1pt. God bless you.
    2pts. I’m praying for you.
    3pts. IM PRAYING 4 U!!!!!!!!!
    4pts. Implied threat or accusation.
    5pts. God still loves you, but will throw you into Hell if you don’t shape up.

  • 107. Locke  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:44 am

    hahahaha preach that shit sister lol!
    i cant believe anybody believed that the pastor bobby dude was for real thats just awesomely hilarious. i feel ya on the whole thing, i’m just not so militant anymore, when someone asks me about my religion these days i’m just like ‘…eh’ and don’t really talk about it. i’m very much atheist but i just dont care to talk about it anymore and don’t wanna have to explain my beliefs. i know what my beliefs are right in my mind and i dont usually feel like arguing heh. anyways good post, i just stumbled upon it, way to incite a bunch of flaming ass comments haha

  • [...] reasons why you are not better than me… 2009 May 26 tags: 10, are, argument, atheists, christianity, counter, fundamentalists, god, jesus, moral, more, reasons, rebuttal, religion, religious, than by G 10 reasons atheists are moral than religious fundamentalists(link) [...]

  • 109. god  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:50 am

    hate to brake the news but theres no santa clause and theres no god,how can any logically educated person believe in such manmade rubbish.i would hope that most people would have a natural instinct and respect for one another not to want to kill one another.after all besides disease i think religion has been the number 1 cause of human death and suffering.we all have the right to believe in what it is we believe in,but we must not allow ourselves to be lead around like sheep.religion and the monarchy or monetary systems were all created by the elitist to control the general populations.we as a human race at this time in our history have the technology and resources to feed ,house ,educate ,cure disease for every human on this earth.but we dont because then the rich wouldn’t get richer and the priest wouldnt get to play with little boys. remember even if there is a god do you think he would be happy with what weve done with the place.we had all start treating each other with a little more respect and human decency.and stop following this false god

  • 110. atheist  |  May 26, 2009 at 5:17 am

    hi, though i`m an atheist but till now can`t accept that there is no GOD.. you opinion just focus on the simple things and that is obvoiusly not enough to convince people that GoD is not exists. I`m tend to believe the existance of the only GOD. I`m not force anyone to agree with me but i want u all to things about something.

    1-Since, scientist can`t prove that how `life` is being implant to newborn baby and they accept the existance `unknown power`..

    2-The creation of the very complicated universe. Even the believers of `bing bang` theory can`t deny the `unknown power` to compile or gather the gases that was randomly exist in the vast space..

    3-The creation of human, and animals. If u don`t agree with the evidence of GOD so it means that u accept the “evolution theory”.. I myself have made some research bout this theory and it is totally unlogic!!

    i`ve read some books and i found the holy book of islam `AL-Quran` . I academacally and sientifically amazed with the explanation of birth and the creation of the entire universe that is 100% same to the discories of the sientists recently.

    please comment to to uncoil my wonders..
    i really want ur help!!
    contact me for further discussion..
    han_dza@yahoo.com ( e-mail and yahoo msgr)

  • 111. god  |  May 26, 2009 at 5:42 am

    every living thing our total extsistance on this planet totally relys on our sun.the distance we are away from the thr rotation of our planet and indeed the rotation of our galaxy in the universe.we will never ever figure out the what were and how of the universe and i dont believe we would really want to know.not to mention we dont deserve to know.still after 2000+ years of civilization we as a human race cannot live together on this small but beautiful planet the only one that i know about that we can live on.there is no reason why we should have war or children starving to death.religion is just an excuse to hate

  • 112. missyohanna  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:29 am

    most of part of the articles I agree. I’m a Buddhism, so an atheist as well, you can say. Coz, there’s no concept of God in Buddhism.
    I think, whether u r religious or not, as long as u dont mean no harm to others, u can live as happy as those people who have their own beliefs.

  • 113. nelsonleith  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:36 am

    Two points:

    The blog specifically states that it is about religious “fundamentalists.” This sort of reasonable qualification is sorely missing in most atheist propaganda, and should be recognized and applauded here.

    Even so, there is nothing whatsoever about atheism that makes someone not do any of the ten things listed. Relying on our own judgment, without appeal to a higher power, can also lead us to all sorts of faulty conclusions, including homophobia, sexism, suspicion of medical expertise, ideological infighting, sexual hypocrisy, racism, ideological warfare, misguided self-sacrifice, false expectations of historical inevitability (Marx anyone?), and rationalizing the devaluing of life by appeal to a larger cause. Every one of these could be — and has been — promoted by worldviews with no God or gods in them.

    The distinguishing factor here is not theism v. atheism, as anyone with a healthy respect for logic and an understanding of differential diagnosis would recognize. For some, however, it’s more comforting (and self-flattering) merely to think of themselves as rationalists rather than actually put in the hard brainwork necessary to qualify as rationalists.

  • 114. nelsonleith  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:43 am

    And, to clarify: systems of thought which are non-theist (absent a concept of God, or inattentive to the issue of God) are not the same as atheism.

    To the former, belief in God is merely beside the point of the philosophy. To the latter, belief in God is specifically attacked, denigrated, condemned, ridiculed, and supressed.

    There is a world of difference, in moral and political terms, between those two ways of thinking.

  • 115. theproverbialcloset  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:55 am

    As an emerging atheist myself, I really liked this post.

    The only criticism I have has already been made and that’s the “broad brush” comment. For example, there are some fundies who don’t hate gays at all. Yes, they don’t believe they should be married, but they don’t hate them. In their minds, this is a huge difference. (I, personally think that anyone who is against gay marriage is a bigot, but that’s just me…)

    On the racism thing – racists come in all shapes and sizes and all religions.

  • 116. futiledemocracy  |  May 26, 2009 at 7:20 am

    Excellent blog. I wrote a similar one today. I hope you don’t mind me adding you to my blogroll.

  • 117. mlstac21  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:06 am

    That’s ok until you get cornered by human nature then you will ask for Gods help, The necessary factor is discerning the work of God from the work of Man. This is not possible to explain. It is different for all people. God is the last force you mentioned.

  • 118. John  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:08 am

    It has always seemed to me that the explanation for the existence of religion (all religions) is based on the need to explain the inexplicable. Humans couldn’t explain why certain things happened, or didn’t happen when they should, so they invented a supernatural being that was in control of the thing they were concerned about. A nice little theory that could then be manipulated into justifying any event. So we had gods for thunder, rain, storms war, crops, motherhood, etc., etc. Lots of gods that could serve as a focus and an explanation for anything that happened that they could not explain rationally. I believe the Hindus have over a thousand gods.
    Then inevitably, some thinkers started to doubt the wisdom of a god for everything and over time the number of gods were reduced until, in a dramatic breakthrough the Jews decided there was only one god and that god controlled everything. Very pragmatic people the Jews, why waste your energy on many gods when you could get by with one?
    So the one god theory won out over time in their neck of the woods and was adopted by everyone else who came from that region.
    Unfortunately, because it is now generally accepted there is only one god various factions have arisen who believe they have the unique insight and wisdom to interpret that god in their way and they are right and everyone else is wrong. So we have lots of wars, oppression and killings in the name of this or that faction’s god.
    And how do these people know they are right? Because they have faith. The true faith and only they have it.
    Perfectly logical illogicality.
    Most of the things for which gods were invented are now clearly understood so as a result the fights between these factions are becoming increasingly bitter as the ground over which they are fighting gets smaller and smaller. It is like the great mediaeval debate over the number of angels that could dance on the head of a pin. Fascinating to the participants but totally mind blowingly stupid to everyone else.
    So, you religionists,have courage, and try looking at the world without believing in the supernatural. It is a good place and can be a lot better if you and your co-religionists take off your blinkers and embrace living a good life by respecting others and trying to do no harm.

  • 119. mark20  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:13 am

    As an atheist, some of your points are not good enough for me. Morals are nothing to do with atheism. Because morals are formed to protect people’s situations in the society. People and their cultures are different. Therefore morals must be change according to societies. Religions keep people in the one same point and apply same morals on them.
    I think it’s your personal thoughts. You were heavily influenced by feminist ideology. Gay marriage, abortions…etc arguable. Marriage itself is a human made rituals. So the key stone is rights.

  • 120. john  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:43 am

    wat is dis

  • 121. ArchangelChuck  |  May 26, 2009 at 9:08 am

    “God said that homosexual behavior was wrong and immoral. He did not say to hate those who are gay, or question themselves in that regard.”

    If you worship the bible as a god, then perhaps you’re right. Otherwise you’re damned wrong.

  • 122. Luke  |  May 26, 2009 at 9:25 am

    AAC,

    that is the most excellent responce i’ve seen.. i’m stealing that and claiming it as my own ;-)

  • 123. Philip  |  May 26, 2009 at 10:17 am

    I agree with accepting you are responsible for your own life and the thoughts you have that you choose to put into action come from within.
    Your actions are the results of the interaction of your body with your habitual way of thinking either for or against your role models (parents & family) & social conditioning.
    Morals are rules that enable society to exist & benefit from the loving support of different people with individual strengths.
    Religion is just a set of rules to determine your beliefs & thus your thoughts & actions so is ok if is private & does not harm the life of others.
    Religion becomes dangerous when it becomes a Political Group IE when it is structured because it dis-empowers people by making them believe all things happen from outside themselves and encourages them to become the victims of the goal driven people who climb every organization to impose their system on the majority.
    Einstein said “Imagination is more important than logic because nothing can be created without first appearing in the mind”
    We are all responsible for our actions because we can all choose how we respond to events by either getting results or blaming Bush for the war to plunder Iraqi oil so the US could make the inevitable changes, due to peak oil & Climate Change even tougher.
    Scientist agree green house gas emissions need to be reduced by 80% of the 2005 levels if our life support system is to survive. President Obama is making some progress – Are You?

  • 124. SayBlade  |  May 26, 2009 at 10:18 am

    There is a lot of middle ground this missive does not cover. Atheists, Humanists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and those of other faith/philosophy groups get along nicely when they work together on issues like climate disturbance, eradicating poverty, solving hunger, advocating for the rights of marginalised people (including gays and lesbians) and agreeing to live together in peace. Of course, the missive seems to be pointing to fundamental (literalist) Christians and not other Christians. There are literalists in every group including Atheists. Fortunately, there continue to be those in every group with good minds and level heads. Some of the finest Atheists I know are Christians and some of the finest Christians I know are Atheists.

  • 125. pochp  |  May 26, 2009 at 10:52 am

    ‘Some of the finest Atheists I know are Christians and some of the finest Christians I know are Atheists.’

    Very astute observation which I share. Bravo!

  • 126. Thom  |  May 26, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    Good article!

    I disagree on one point however. Bullet point “8” talks about being a martyr. However the main reason for committing suicide by blowing yourself up in a public place is not extreme religious fundamentalism. It is because an occupying force has taken over one’s land. Sri Lanka has extreme fundamentalism and brutal violence, but not suicide bombings. “Dying to win” (I think) is a book about this

  • 127. Thom  |  May 26, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    [Append to there ^^^^]

    That does not mean that religion does not play an important role, it just isn’t the biggest factor.

  • 128. christianresponse  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:11 pm

    Um, Hello… But who died and made you God? How can you be so sure about the non-existence of God and how to get to heaven just in case God exists? Your de-conversion wager presumes your omniscience, and you’ve done nothing to prove your authority. Why should we believe you?

  • [...] Resources for Skeptical, De-Converting or Former Christians. The title of the posted Op/Ed is 10 Reasons Atheists Are More Moral Than Religious Fundamentalists … While most atheists are faced with answering how they can be moral without a god, I have a list [...]

  • 130. lemin1  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:16 pm

    ITALY: political, institutional repression, abuse of power, racism, discrimination… for the aliens!

  • 131. kurt  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    wow … you make way too much sense … blasphemy !!!!

  • 132. Joe  |  May 26, 2009 at 3:47 pm

    Neece—

    Reading your list of 10 reasons of why Atheists are more moral than Religious Fundamentlists reminded me of the the man who prayed:

    “Lord, I thank you that I am not like other men….”

  • 133. anon  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    now, if only ‘atheists’ would stop being so fundamentalist about their own beliefs. You may not believe in the ‘God’ that the religious believe in, but you have a similar and equally, if not more, religious ‘faith’ in your own belief system. and to justify it, you won’t bat an eyelid before you set up straw-men. for example, what makes you think for a moment that any opposition to gays and stem cell research has to be religiously motivated and only religiously motivated?

    i for one, couldn’t care less who or what a guy fucked in the privacy of his bedroom; I only don’t want him and his ‘ilk’ of cross-dressers parading in g-strings in my neighbourhood; ostensibly “proud” of their “orientation”. I for one, find it positively revolting and makes me want to “sympathize” that much less for their “cause”. And this has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with my religion.

    My “religion”, for one, cares even less for sexual “orientation” than you do. It cares so less that it doesn’t even make any pronouncements about it. So stop extrapolating your own colored sense of what “religion” is to all “religions”. Concepts like “sexual orientation”, “evolution” etc., loom large only in the eyes of Abrahamic religions and that too only in the West.

    “Evolution” for example, is a non-issue in Asia, even among Christians and Muslims. So at the very least, make sure you don’t use “religion” when you mean “Christianity” or “Islam” or more specifically, “Christianity in the West”. To the rest of the world, “Evolution” is as true as everything else that “God” created. duh.

  • 134. god  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    for all interested if you havent already seen it check out Zeitgeist: Addendum on google video,this is the direction mankind should be going in.the religious fanatics and elitist of the world have had a crack at the ball for the last 2000 years, its time for a more logical and more involved administering of world affairs.sure there will have to be a nwo the problem lies with who will do it.we see now were and how people like rockerfellers ,cheny and rumsfeld would like to rule the world.they only do it for their own self interestdoes anyone realize how much money those family’s have made just for the iraq war and all because saddam didnt want to play their bullshit games.unfortunately most americian people are christian and like sheep they follow their leaders even into death.by the way if according to your bibles if you kill another human being dont you go to hell,wow that would mean most of the boys you send to kill in the name of god are going to hell.wow shame on them .i guess thats why those rich and powerful men dont fight in war.my point would be that we as a human race have to stop acting like sheep and believing in things that dont exist and get on with being a global community,after all it is just us floating around in this enormous universe there is nothing out there for anyone or anything from this earth ,this is it ,so take care of it and your fellow man.i do not hate any one or anything hate is a waste of time and energy,but ignorance should not be tolerated.peace out god the true atheist lol

  • 135. reamofpaper  |  May 26, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Writing as a Christian who read your entire post and still refuses to attack you, I must say this: the fundies have lost the morality pissing match. Perhaps they have not lost it, but they have definitely proven it is an ad hominem fallacy at its weakest and ad populum at best.

    To state, “I am more moral than you,” would mean that we share the same personal and cultural/tribal views on morality. We don’t. We both probably fail to live up to our moral standards at about the same rate. I cannot imagine why anyone would wish to set themselves up as morally superior to the group that has shown the futility of BEING the moral voice.

  • 136. An Idiot in Action « Christian Response  |  May 26, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    [...] an idiot in action who argues that atheists are “more moral than religious fundamentalists”.  What [...]

  • 137. fromthepagesof  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    i think my main problem with your post is that instead of coming off as enlightening you come off as really judgemental and that you are acting superiour towards anyone with religion. Personally i’m not that spiritual i couldn’t even finish your entire post becuase it came off as more of a hate/rant post than something with real substance

  • 138. lookingforsomethingtofind  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Athesist, have to devise their own, morals. Which means, that we put more thought into it, and search for what is right based on the real world. I think some of the things you put in, like being pro-choice, is not neccary to all non believers (I am aware of my bad spelling, so no need to point it out, other commentors), my friend, also an athesist, is pro choice, while I am not. I digress from my point, morals are so sujective, they depend on who we are, and who we know. People who say religion is neccary to have them are wrong, all that it takes is looking around you, caring and thinking.

    Another related point, there is this myth that all athesist are left of center. I am a conservative guy politically, but have no belief in god. We atheisits, are both in the left and right. The founding fathers for the most part were athesists. Religion had very little to do with anything, besides religion. I was taking Arabic lessons at one point, and the person teaching it, said in his view the conflict between the shiates and sunies is mostly cultral. Most conflict, and societal issues that are religous on thier surface, reallt stem from something else.

  • 139. freedominspring  |  May 26, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    As a fairly progressive Christian, I like this. It is really true when one looks at the moral behavior of the religious elite. I must say I respect an atheist much more than a half-hearted hypocritical Christian.

  • 140. Wigglesworth  |  May 26, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    Nice post. As an atheist I agree with you.

  • 141. Christian  |  May 26, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    I would have loved to read your article as I stumbled upon it but after getting through the first paragraph where you decided to insult and attack my personal views, I decided not to. I just want to add that I will say a prayer for you to Jesus Christ your savior (believe it or not). The only thing I would recommend you do is continue blogging about these things becuase I know its important to you. You can have what I have and you will someday. Just keep searching, oh and I am not being ignorant if that was your next thought…I know its hard to accept the fact that something more important than you exists in this world and that I truly know this.

  • 142. barbikir  |  May 26, 2009 at 7:19 pm

    i’m confident that once you’re dead, you’ll find yourself in great trouble begging to return to the world. I dont want you to blame me once you are dead for not doing anything for you.I suggest that you try to understand the reasons people want to have God in their life (from their perspectives, rather being judgemental toward those believe in God). ideas about God must have very strong basics or else most of the world population wont have religion. this life is a period for experiment. you’ll be rewarded on the good deeds that you do in this life.there are boundaries where people arent allowed o transgress.if there’s no life after death, there would be no justice for people.outlaws will not be punished and good people will always be oppressed.God sets guidelines since He’s the creator who understands His creations more than the creations understand themselves. absolute freedom (as u believe) will one day lead to disasters…I hope that you wont come to me after we’re dead blaming me for not doing enough.I hope we can discuss this matter in a very peaceful and intellectual way. God willing…

  • 143. GospelPreacher238  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:26 pm

    well, I would love to talk to you about the issues that you have raised because I think whats happened here is that you’ve taken the small minority of Christians who sadly do hold to these extreme views and labled all Christians in this way. I would love to talk!

    GospelPreacher238

  • 144. Magnus  |  May 26, 2009 at 8:58 pm

    In reply to GoselPreacher238. Well, these Christians that take the Bible literally, that is also the (only) source that you would derive your belief in god from. In other words, while you condemn certain aspects you still maintain belief in the organizational knowledge that they assume. In other words, you still support the inherent slavery, sexism, homophobia that it entails, unless you’ve detached the belief in a deity so much from the bible that you have no basis for belief in the bible, except your inherent cultural indoctrination.

    I really liked this blog. It was extremely enjoyable. If you stop writing I will slaughter you like a crusader. Just kidding…

  • 145. bob  |  May 26, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    I am not a fundamentalist. I just want to throw that out there. I appreciate that you specified that you weren’t talking to every Christian and Muslim. I appreciate your points. However, I am compelled to throw out some holes in your arguments. If you, and other atheists are moral by nature, without the help of God or any other outside source, then why can’t fundamentalists be considered good if they don’t have to listen to God. I don’t know if that makes sense. Essentially I am saying that if it is basic human nature and common sense to act morally, then a fundamentalist has just as much chance of being moral as you do, unless they don’t have that same basic human nature and are completely devoid of common sense. That would make them less that human. I don’t think that is what you are trying to say though because you seem to pride yourself on your tolerance toward different peoples.

    Second, you mention how atheists have read that “awful” book to be bettered educated, when just before you had admitted that you hadn’t read the Qu’ran. If you are going to mention Islam at all then would it not be best to know about Islam as well as Christianity? If not, then don’t mention them. You don’t understand what you are talking about then, and you drag yourself down to the same level of as ignorant fundamentalists.

    Hitler may have called himself a Roman Catholic, but I don’t know any that would call that a viable claim. Stalin however, did not subscribe to a faith, and in fact persecuted nearly all of them until he realized that he would have to tolerate some religion because of the sheer volume of religious people in Soviet territories.

    The Skeptics Annotated Bible has some good points, but for true scholarship and a much more objective approach, try Bart Ehrman, Elain Pagels, Albert Schweitzer, etc.

    And you really only railed on Fundamentalist Christian theology for most of those. They are actually a minority in the Christian world. They only get all the press.

    Thanks, this wasn’t that bad. Good luck in further endeavors!
    And for the record, I am a Christian trying to bring honor back to the term. Peace!

  • 146. youngearth  |  May 26, 2009 at 10:54 pm

    re: post68 “The bible is fiction and is proof of NOTHING!”
    Christians believe the Bible to be the Word of God. They live by faith, not by sight, until Jesus returns.

    re:post70 “Youngearth, the strength of your persuasion is ZERO.”
    The strength of the Holy Spirit is infinite. All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

    re:post77
    The Old Testament contains 39 books and the New Testament contains 27 books or letters. His Word is eternal and we can be refreshed by it’s truth. Knowledge comes by the Holy Spirit. Christians understand that the fullness of the deity is found in Jesus Christ. He came from above and walked this earth emptied of all heavenly glory. He died for *my* sins on the cross. He was raised on the third day and sits on the throne of heaven. AD 2009

  • 147. kingoyaks  |  May 26, 2009 at 11:50 pm

    I have to say… While I encourage people to spread their view around, this is EXACTLY the sort of thing that pushed me away from Christianity (Catholicism, for the record)… “We art holier than thou”…
    To use a funny phrase, “All generalizations are wrong, including this one”.
    I know 3 Christians, (2 fundamentalist, though not Young-Earth-Creation) who I would consider among the most “moral” people that I know. They help old ladies, they go on their mission trip things, they are always open to religious discussion (unless it interferes with Risk). 10 reasons why Atheists are more moral than fundamentalists… Not all atheists believe what you do, and not all fundamentalists believe what you say they do. I’ve only met one Christian my age, EVER, that honestly believed that the bible was 100% true, that Homosexuals shouldn’t be married, etc. You just can’t make blanket statements like that… Do I agree with your points? Some of them.
    The very first part of this post though… It is sad. “I’m not going to pick the bible (or the quran) apart. It’s not worth my time and aggravation. If you believe that the bible is the divinely inspired word of god, you’re only going to skim this article, find a few points to attack me while you brew up a cup of moral and righteous indignation, and then try to shove your fundamentalism down my throat because you’re scared of people who think for themselves and don’t have blind faith in fairy tales from the Fertile Crescent like you do. You don’t listen anyway, you just find ammunition then viciously attack. What great role models you are. How very christ-like.”
    Based on that… Hypocrite. “I’m not going to read your holy text, it isn’t worth my time. But If you don’t read mine, every bit of it, and don’t agree with it 100%, I’ll call you scared, full of blind faith, and generally make fun of you.”
    That saddens me. Atheism is about being open to ideas, and accepting stuff based on facts, not on myths and lies. What you just did is admit that you don’t know the facts, then proceed to yell at others for not knowing the facts while saying that you don’t intend to learn said facts. Hypocrite.
    Don’t drag down the (so-far, so-good) name of Atheism by attaching it to just as stupid ideas… I’ve read the bible. It is stupid, self-contradicting, and everyone who reads it tells me that only THEIR interpretation is true, and that the other Christians aren’t really Christians. Then, instead of debating to discover the truth, they just create new sects, each one convinced that their truth is THE truth. Atheism doesn’t need to do that. If there is a hole in your argument, let them attack it (I certainly will). If your argument falls apart, find a new one. Learn. Don’t say that “I’m right, and if you disagree, you’re bla bla insult bla bla bla stupid etc.”
    That is just as bad.
    Time to dissect your “arguments”:

    ” 1. No god tells me to hate gay people, so I have no reason to hate them. In fact I think if gay people love each other and want to get married, more power to them. Why should we stop love and caring based on gender? I encourage loving and caring any way it manifests itself.”

    Agreed. However, not all religions hate Homosexuals, and not all that do fully agree.

    ” 2. No god tells me that women are inferior and should subject themselves to men. So I’m equal to a man. Except getting spiders out of the house. He can be superior to me in that department. Oh, and opening jars. He can have that one too.”

    Ah, feminism… You amuse me so. While I agree with the first two sentences (though as always, it reminds me of Separate but Equal, and the whole segregation problem. You can’t have it both ways.) the last few… Condescending much? I thought we were equal! What happened to that? “He can have that”… Honestly. Scream eek if you will, but then don’t call us sexist when we say, “Equal? But who opens the jars?”

    ” 3. No god tells me to pray instead of seeking medical attention. I believe in all kinds of scientific research and medicine. I even believe in stem cell research. I also think a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body. This probably goes up under the ‘women are equal’ entry as well, because I think it’s ridiculous that an old man I will never meet gets to decide what I can and can’t do with my body. Oh, and euthanasia should be considered an option, although it would have to be properly done so that no one gets murdered. But come on, if life is so freaking precious, why make some sick and dying person go through agony and humiliation and endure countless medical procedures just to stay alive? That’s insane.”

    I agree with this… Mostly. Is life precious? Or isn’t it? I say that it is… And your body belongs to you, just as my body belongs to me… And the baby’s body belongs to the baby. Who are you to tell the baby “We went through the procedure to create you, but we didn’t actually want you”? Telling people who deserves to live, and who to die… That sounds… Like a God. See a pattern here? My view (never found anyone who agrees with me yet, but here it is) is that Sex is for Procreation. It is fun, so we would procreate. Evolutionarily speaking, if Doing It was fun, we would Do It more, and thus more of us would be born and we would beat the opposing strains of Homo Sapiens. That said, it is for creating life. If you are prepared to support a child (have a job, a wife/life partner/husband, a home, etc), have sex! Create new life, and teach someone about the world! If you aren’t… Don’t. Is your pleasure worth my life? NO! Human life is precious… Our moments of bliss are not worth murdering babies… Who have done no harm. As for stem cell research… I think that there are ways to get stem cells without killing babies (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5696557) Google it. It isn’t hard.
    I agree with the bit about euthanasia and medicine and all.

    ” 4. No god tells me to hate people who believe in the same god but in a “wrong” way. Ok, that’s just stupid. At thanksgiving dinner my cousin was harassed by the fundamentalist methodists there because she went to 3 different bible camps from 3 different churches. She said, it’s all the same god, why does it bother you so much? I had to agree with her. They’re so hateful and ignorant.”

    Agreed.

    ” 5. No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s. Also, as noted above, I also believe that mistakes happen, and so do horrible crimes against women. The morning after pill should be available to girls and women who need them to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term. Oh, and back to the ‘be fruitful and multiply thing’. I didn’t even have to have kids in the first place because I’m strong enough in myself that I don’t need some namesake to carry on for me or continue to overpopulate the planet simply because a god said I had to, thousands of years ago. Or worse, I am not starving in some third world country, having babies one after the other for my whole short life because the christians forced their god on me long ago and imposed their ridiculous rules and told us stupid lies.”

    This is the part that I take issue with…

    “and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term”

    See my earlier abortion rant… You shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term? THEN YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE HAD FRIGGIN’ SEX! You can’t complete the process designed to make a baby and then say, “But I didn’t want a baby!”. Murder is murder, no matter the age. If you abort a baby, I think that you should go up before the stand and be tried as a criminal. None of this tried-as-a-child business either. Children don’t have kids… The phrase, “I’ll make a woman/man out of you”, while horrible, is my point here. You murdered an innocent baby. There was no motive here except that you were a selfish person. You wanted that pleasure, and were willing to trade a life for it. Horrible. The two quotations: “No one should tell me what to do with me body” and “woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term” say to me: Hypocrite. You are telling the baby what to do with it’s body.

    ” 6. No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)”

    Godwin’s law… Or is it Reductio ad hitlerum? Once a discussion has reached the point of bringing in Hitler, it is over.<-Note the period. (if you don't understand, http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1020
    Will explain part and confuse you even more)

    " 7. No god tells me to start a war over another land having the wrong god or the wrong types of people (see the one above), so I don’t have to support pointless wars that justify some ridiculous ancient prophecy or for other silly reasons, like god talking directly to the leader of my country. (Don’t even get me started on how scary that is. At least he’s gone now!)"

    Agreed.

    " 8. No god makes promises to me about being a martyr, so I have no reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a train station or whatever kills the most innocent people."

    Agreed.

    " 9. No god makes open-ended promises that will never come true about armageddon and going up to heaven soon, so I am responsible about the environment, and try my best to have a small impact on the planet, and also support research into making things better for everyone through science and smarter living."

    Agreed again. Green Energy FTW!

    " 10. No god promises eternal life to me, so I understand that this life is precious. I take personal responsibility seriously, and I live my life the best way I can because it’s the only one I’ve got. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason."

    For the last time, Agreed. I only take issue with 3&5 really. And the whole Idea of this rant. That too.

    Have a nice day. (It is beautiful!)

  • 148. Eve's Apple  |  May 26, 2009 at 11:56 pm

    I don’t think that either side has a monopoly on morality or immorality. If you recall the story “The Emperor’s New Clothes”, the dishonest tailors were able to get away with their swindle by saying that only the most intelligent people could see the clothes and if you could not, that meant you were not intelligent. Of course that had the effect of shutting most people up, as nobody wished to be on the “wrong” side.

    I see the same thing happening today. Right now it is embryonic stem-cell research that is the sacred cow; that there might very well be good and legitimate reasons to oppose it never seems to enter into the discussion. Instead, if you oppose that, well, you have just revealed yourself as one of those (fill in the blank with the latest insult). Hence no further discussion is necessary.

    I have learned the hard way that certain discussions are full of minefields. There have been times in my life when I have felt like a minority at a KKK rally. As long as I keep my hood on and my mouth shut, everything is peachy. There seems to be no place in the world for bridge-buiders, people who have a foot in both camps.

    No one side is any more moral than the other. History has amply proved that. There are times when I think that there just might be something to the old Christian doctrine of “original sin” after all, simply by watching people around me.

    I have been reading “The Hemingses of Monticello” by Annette Gordon-Reed and I came across a very thought-provoking passage about religion and ethics. “Throughout history, religion has been the source of many an ‘irrational’ act, for both good and evil. The ethical sense has never been so good at exciting passionate, caution-thrown-to-the-wind actions.” Interesting enough, although slavery had the support of the Bible, it was religious people, such as the Quakers, who were more likely to free their slaves than people like Jefferson. In the context of the times, this was considered an irrational act because it was throwing away valuable property that could be inherited. Some years ago I did a little research into the abolitionist movement and found, to my surprise, that it was viewed in much the same manner as the pro-life movement today. They were seen as meddlers, wanting to impose their values on others, fanatics–and yet today they are heroes. So I say, be careful before you mock someone just because they go against the crowd–or against your own views. History may very well have a different verdict someday.

  • 149. meow  |  May 27, 2009 at 12:16 am

    I don’t believe in God. Therefore, I don’t believe that Christians can save my soul. Please respect my beliefs and I promise to respect yours.

    How do you feel (and keep this in mind as well, atheists) when your personal beliefs are ridiculed and frowned upon by your fellow humans?

    Doesn’t the Bible say not to judge others? How can any Christian morally justify telling anyone they aren’t living the right kind of life?

    How can any atheist say they are taking the moral highground when, because the only lives we have lived are our own, everyone carries different definitions of what morality actually is?

    How can you possibly hope to distinguish harmony when you’ve never heard discord?

  • 150. emptyay  |  May 27, 2009 at 12:39 am

    Let me start out by saying I am a Christian. Just so you know. Now, on to your points.

    1. God doesn’t say to hate gay people…he says homosexuality is wrong. Some of my best friends are gay, and I don’t have any problem at all with them, nor do I try to shove God down their throats or tell them they’re going to hell…how could that possibly result in anything positive?

    2. God doesn’t say women are inferior to men. Allah might, but hey…he also says it’s ok to beat your kids if they don’t come to church with you. Silly Muslims.

    3. What god tells you to do that? It reminds me of a story I heard about a church where the people danced with snakes and believed God would protect them from getting bitten. When someone got bitten, they believed that God wouldn’t let the poison hurt them. Umm…at least it got them out of the gene pool? God created doctors, stupid.

    4. Lol, I don’t think God cares much for denominations. I love how churches get into arguments about stupid things and then split and make a new denomination. Its like “Omg, we only read the King James Version, bitches! If you want to read the New International Version, get your own denomination.” It’s stupid.

    5. I like sex. I have to agree. ><

    6. God doesn't say that. I think Allah pretty much says "if you're not a muslim, screw you and go die." but…Allah is kind of a douche.

    7. No god tells me that either….it seems like you're lumping all religions together to be able to whine about a large number of things. I don't start wars either.

    8. Again, I agree. "You want me to do what? Why can't I just put the bomb there and leave? Oh…ok." Stupid.

    9. Well if it hasn't happened…and the world hasn't ended…how can you really argue this either way? Christians can say what they think will happen, and you can say what you think will happen, but neither side can say the other is wrong…right? Also, are you arguing that Christians don't care about the environment because we believe in the Rapture? Do you realize what a stupid argument that is?

    10. Again…as far as I can tell…your argument is that Christians don't believe life is precious because we believe in eternal life? Again, I think that by lumping all religious together you devalue your argument, because the ideas and teachings behind them are so different.

    Now, I don't believe that you can't be moral without believing in God. There are tons of "religious" people that are morally bankrupt, and I know tons of athiests who are more moral than me.

    But, sadly, the third paragraph of your post is an amazingly bitter, horrible, attack. After that, it becomes obvious that you don't actually want a logical discussion about religion, aethiesm, or anything, really. It's just a rant, plain and simple.

    Once that happens, you're no better than the Christians that rant about sin and evil and all that crap and don't do a damn bit of good for anyone.

    So, as far as I'm concerned, if you want to rant, label this as a rant. If you want to actually spur on a logical discussion about anything, take the bile and venom out of your post and try again.

    _Empty

  • 151. Elizabeth  |  May 27, 2009 at 1:24 am

    I think that the most important thing to keep in mind here is that we are talking about fundamentalism. Fundamentalism or extremism, in whatever form, can be unhealthy and, in some incidences, dangerous. It is true that Hitler was a “Christian” but he only identified with the negative aspects of Christianity such as power, judgment and hatred. Most religions, particularly, eastern religions, focus on finding a middle ground. It is only when this balance is achieved that faith and spirituality can enrich a person and the society in which they live. Sadly, extremism is on the rise in religion while moderate denominations of faith are dying out. The main problem is that moderate denominations are not attracting new members. They are not appealing, as they should, to the younger generations. I believe that extremism fuels extremism and immorality. If fundamentalism did not exist atheists would not feel so threatened and they would be less extreme in their quest to rid the world of the religion. We would all get along much better because most moderate Christians, Jews and Muslims essentially agree with all the moral augments you have made with the exception that God does not exist.

    Just in case you are wondering, I am a Jew who became Christian. I am NOT a Messianic Jew because they are extremists in my view. I am very moderate about my views and do not believe that I have to give up my belief in God and Jesus to be a good person. I also do not believe that atheists are bad people because they don’t believe in God. I just worry that they have responded to extremism with the same fervor that fundamentalists respond to them!

  • 152. writerdd  |  May 27, 2009 at 9:31 am

    I see what this is getting at. Faith (or trust) in people is different than faith in God. Faith in people is based on experience. I trust people more and more as I get to know them, and as I see that they are trustworthy. I may give strangers the benefit of the doubt when we meet, but trust/faith is earned.

    Faith in God is blind. It is based on nothing but hearsay. Even the Bible says that “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” therefore it is not based on experience and it is not earned. It is just wishful thinking, as defined by the Bible.

    Unfortunately, we use the same word for both things in English.

  • 153. writerdd  |  May 27, 2009 at 9:32 am

    2. God doesn’t say women are inferior to men. Allah might, but hey…he also says it’s ok to beat your kids if they don’t come to church with you. Silly Muslims.

    God says it’s OK to stone your kids to death if they are rebellious. Silly Jews & Christians.

  • 154. Anonymous  |  May 27, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    #147 Kingoyaks—

    Your comments regarding abortion are intriguing. Your arguments are very good–and it is interesting to see an agnostic/atheist (correct me if I am interpreting your post incorretly–it appears you no longer believe) take a stance like that.

  • 155. emptyay  |  May 27, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    Actually, in the Old Testament, there were no Christians because there was no Christ. The Jews were under very strict laws and lots of bullshit, and there was little-to-no grace on anything. It was very cut and dry do-this-or-there-are-consequences.

    In the New Testament, Jesus shows up and dies for our sins, which are then all paid for. That means there doesn’t need to be harsh punishments anymore because under this new covenant, we ask for forgiveness, God starts to dole out consequences and Jesus say “uh…dad? yeah…I died to get rid of those sins…there was already a payment.”

    And anyway…how many stories do you hear of rebellious Christian kids being stoned to death? Just the other day, I walked out of my house and saw a 10 year old running down the driveway, being pelted with rocks by his parents because he didn’t want to go to church. Oh wait…no I didn’t.

    Matthew 26:28 says:
    “For this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.”

    2 Corinthians 5:17 says:
    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

    Romans 8:1 says:
    “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

    Just looking that those passages, you can see that Jesus changes everything. He brings a “new covenant” that makes you a “new creature” and you are now under “no condemnation.”

    Of course, if I wasn’t a Christian, I could just be a moral relativist and think that stoning your kids would be perfectly ok.

    I can see someone making the argument that athiests are just as moral as religious people, or that morality isn’t necessarily based on your religious beliefs, but if you’re upset that the religious people claim to me morally superior to you…how does saying “nuh uh, we’re morally superior to YOU,” solve anything?

    _Empty

  • 156. yelo  |  May 27, 2009 at 6:49 pm

    I may have been lazy to attend some church or temple and pray to the “Lord”.

    But I may be honest and say that I DO NOT KNOW whether Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Christians and thousands of other religions are correct. It may be honest to take into account the possibility that religions are socially accepted delusions and that nobody knows anything about the cause or purpose of the world.

    Whether I do good to others or only to myself might be totally unrelated to any beliefs or their lack.

    I feel it is moral, ethical and honest to say “I do not know” if I do not know.

  • 157. Hamburgler  |  May 27, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    Rabble Rabble!!!

  • 158. yelo  |  May 27, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    Harmburger Harmburger!!!

  • 159. caribayman  |  May 27, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    Right On Target!!! I was raised in a household of a religious fundamentalist, and I just recently learned that he was a pedophile, abusing my two brothers. Religious fundamentalism has NO PLACE in society anymore, no more than any other religion of fanatacism. My father was evil, narcissistic and self-centered. A very easy target for religious entities to “pounce” on. Oh, those entities will deny it to the utmost, but in the very end, they know that what they try to push on others is not about the other person, but only about themselves. I now state emphatically, to any religious person that “you should NOT try to take the speck out of my eye, when you have a mudslide on your own front porch”!!!! Translation: don’t criticize me until you have ALL, and I mean ALL, your faults, problems, quirks, etc., corrected. Then, and only then, do you then have the right to cricize me. Until that time, keep your religious beliefs to yourself, because it’s all about you, not others.

    This article is right on target!!! I only wish it would make it into the mainstream media!!!!!

  • 160. caribayman  |  May 27, 2009 at 8:54 pm

    Oh, any by the way, I have a question to pose to each and every christian out there……it’s this…..

    OK, so your god knows everything that has happened in the past, right? And, your god knows everything that is happening right now, right? And, your god knows everything that will happen in the future, right? Well then, if your god KNEW that this world was going to be one royal screwup, why did he do it? Why couldn’t he just snap his fingers and fix everything after original sin? Why did he not have power over the satanic angel?

    Let’s face it…..religion was a created myth by people on the eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea. To their credit, it was, and is, the best money-making entity ever created, so I give them their credit there. But, your god just ain’t anything more than a myth.

    Good luck trying to reconcile this with your beliefs. (shatter, shatter, shatter)

  • 161. Ash  |  May 28, 2009 at 2:02 am

    if your god KNEW that this world was going to be one royal screwup, why did he do it? Why couldn’t he just snap his fingers and fix everything after original sin? Why did he not have power over the satanic angel?

    I think about this all the time. I often wish I didn’t exist because really, it’s a total bother. I don’t blame God for it, though. I mean, come on… Adam had a choice between eternal life and an apple. He chose the apple. God couldn’t force him to choose Him because love doesn’t mean controlling every aspect of your child’s life so that your child never becomes his own person.

    As for Satan’s power, it is nothing compared to God’s, but since we keep turning away from God we become vessels for Satan’s hate for God.

  • 162. A Morality All My Own « Love Acceptance Forgiveness  |  May 28, 2009 at 2:09 am

    [...] to provide evidence not just of the existence of a standard for morality within Atheism, but of the superiority of Morals among Atheists. After reading it a couple of times and attempting to give it a fair analysis, I have to say that [...]

  • 163. emptyay  |  May 28, 2009 at 4:33 am

    I’m constantly amazed that, as athiests whine about religious people shoving religion down their throats and being generally rude and annoying, they are in fact trying to shove anti-religion down our throats and being rude and annoying.

    I’m sure this will solve the problem. Oh wait…

    And thanks, caribayman, for providing me with a great example.

    If God had fixed everything after Adam screwed it up and made sure everything worked perfectly, you’d be on here complaining that God controls your life and won’t leave you alone.

    You can’t have every side of an argument.

  • 164. Quester  |  May 28, 2009 at 4:41 am

    I’m constantly amazed that, as athiests whine about religious people shoving religion down their throats and being generally rude and annoying, they are in fact trying to shove anti-religion down our throats and being rude and annoying.

    Oh yes, watch as we flock to your websites and blogs, forcing our opinions upon you. No, wait, you came here. What was your argument, again?

  • 165. yelo  |  May 28, 2009 at 5:40 am

    What was emptyay’s argument? No-one knows. Emptyay tries to apply logic to a vision of reality, which doesn’t have much to do with reality. This way one can run in mental circles forever, blabbering and prattling, remaining immune to any argument, because beliefs (delusions) are regarded as superior to facts.

    “It is honest, ethical and moral to admit that ‘I don’t know” if I do not know”

  • 166. Ash  |  May 28, 2009 at 7:20 am

    Maybe he’s talking about the fact that instead of presenting evidence for the non-existence of God or just going through life without acknowledging God’s presence, some atheists choose to provoke the Christian community with “I’m more moral than you” articles such as this one. Of course, some Christians act the same, so it’s really a lose-lose situation.

  • 167. Dekoracje Okien  |  May 29, 2009 at 5:45 am

    @1 – no god tells christians to hate gays too. It’s just the fact that church is retarded and can’t keep up with times that causes all the problems. I don’t have problem with religion, my only problem is with church.

  • 168. BadString  |  May 29, 2009 at 6:35 am

    Excellent!

  • 169. ArchangelChuck  |  June 1, 2009 at 10:14 am

    @167: Almost right. Church is nothing more than community; unfortunately it is also the place from which priests derive their power. It is priests — who I’m convinced are the antithesis of all that is good in the world — that are at the root of the problem; stubborn old fools in stupid looking hats and flowery robes that think they know better than you do what God — whatever that is, if it even exists — “wants.” ;p

  • 170. Steve Johnson  |  June 1, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    Did you bother to fact check any of this, and you took upon the role of only showing extremists examples, poorly written and inaccurate.

  • 171. janiemac  |  June 2, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    You people should read Neece’s comments again. She did not say all christians this or that she is talking about fundamentalists. That’s FUNDAMENTALISTS. She didn’t lump all chistians into this category.

  • 172. Wyatts Dad  |  June 5, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Neece,
    Very well put!

  • 173. pochp  |  June 5, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Very good point by JanieM.

  • 174. pochp  |  June 5, 2009 at 11:55 am

    I forgot to to comment that we must call these fundamentalists
    ‘extremists’ instead.

  • 175. Seeker  |  June 5, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    Neece, you say that you don’t want to pick apart the Bible but most of your 10 reasons, which you attribute to God, are not supported by scriptures and, in fact, are not demanded from God.

    For example, your first three state the no God will tell me to hate gay people, that women are inferior and that you should pray for healing instead of seeking medical attention. Where, precisely, in the Bible does God say those things? And I am not talking about the culture of that day, I am talking about a direct statement from God.

    You are confusing what some religions practice as opposed to what God actually says.

    As for number 5, about sex, God instituted marriage and expects fidelity for a reason. Look at how screwed up our society has become in the last 50 years with people having sex all over the place and getting pregnant out of wedlock. How many of their kids are in jail or on the run because they weren’t raised in a stable home? This particular issue isn’t about how God is not fair – it’s about the fact that teenagers simply want to have sex and they don’t like being told it’s wrong.

    I won’t go into the others but I think you need to check and see what God himself actually says and ignore what the different religions practice.

  • 176. BigHouse  |  June 5, 2009 at 6:24 pm

    but I think you need to check and see what God himself actually says

    That would be nice, but how does one do this? I don’t see the Bible notarized by God, you assume it is “his words”.

    And that’s the problem isn’t it? That God doesn’t actually “show up”. It’s all by proxy. pne big game of telephone.

    So, then, EVERYTHING is man’s interpretation, and thusly, all subjective and equally fallible.

  • 177. Seeker  |  June 5, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    Big House,

    Christianity is based on the New Testament, which is a successor to the Law of Moses in the Old Testament.

    The Bible itself is the Word of God. Neece is critical of God based on what religions practice which, by association, is supposedly based on what is in the Bible.

    A lot of religion doctrine is based on what MAN has decided, not on what GOD has actually said. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people should hate gays but Neece says that he does. Nowhere in the Bible does God say that women are inferior to man yet Neece says that he does. Nowhere in the Bible does God say that people should avoid getting medical attention and simply pray for healing but Neece says that he does.

    So, the Bible IS God speaking to us and I don’t assume it is; I know it is. You can’t have dozens of men living hundreds of years apart write different documents that fit so neatly together without divine intervention.

    I simply am asking Neece to show me where in the Bible God makes the statements that he says God does.

    If Neece is right, it shouldn’t be too hard to do.

  • 178. BigHouse  |  June 5, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    So, the Bible IS God speaking to us and I don’t assume it is; I know it is.

    Um, your declaration of KNOWING does nothing to add validity to your statement. What authority/evidence/backup do you have? Oh that’s right, NONE.

    You can’t have dozens of men living hundreds of years apart write different documents that fit so neatly together without divine intervention.

    Your definition of “neatly” is not one I am familiar with. And your limiting the posssible explanations to just the supernatural doesn’t give me a lot of hope for your critical reasoning skills.

  • 179. Seeker  |  June 5, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    I don’t mind having a serious discussion, BigHouse, but I don’t t you’re interested in one. I asked a simple question: where does God tell us to do what Neece says he does. All you’ve done is give smug, condescending responses to various parts of my comments without attempting to actually answer the question.

    While you question my critical reasoning skills, you haven’t really demonstrated yours either, have you? So where does this back and forth get us? Nowhere.

    As for the “authority/evidene” to backup my assertions, there is nowhere near enough room to give it all here. But, if you aren’t afraid to do some reading, I will send you to a couple of sites that might be of interest.

    Why they might be of interest is because the sites have been developed by ex-atheists who, through their own study of science and/or the Bible, came to believe in God. They give the reasons why the came to believe in God. If you truly want to know why I believe that the Bible is the word of God, I challenge you to read them.

    http://www.doesgodexist.org/

    http://www.everystudent.com/menus/existence.html

    Or, if you want to check out your local library, you could check out the books “The Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel, an award-winner reporter and editor who also turned from atheism to Christ. His book shows that science and the Bible are compatible.

    If you want to know how I “know” that the Bible is God’s word, you’ll find the explanations on these sites.

  • 180. yelo  |  June 6, 2009 at 1:07 am

    Seeker,

    plainly speaking – your words are absolutely unconvincing. I may discuss a few issues with you, but I find referring someone to read a pile of resources as arrogant. I was a catholic for 25 years, that religion was stuffed up my throat when I was a child, and it was only when I left a country socially occupied by Vatican that I realized that christianity, or any other religion, does not make any sense.

    You talk abour Christ and bible. How about Torah, Quran, Hindu texts, Zoroastrianism, Satanism and a large number of minor religions? Yours is correct? You can try to convince me, but I am not going to read any books or other sources.

    I entirely agree with BigHouse. Your “knowing” is your delusion and arguing with someone who regards as true things he/she can’t prove is pointless.

  • 181. SnugglyBuffalo  |  June 6, 2009 at 1:24 am

    If “The Case for a Creator” is a good book in your mind, I have little hope for those links you posted, but I’ll check them out.

    As for your other points, you have to keep in mind that Neece is specifically discussing fundamentalist Christianity. And there might be a bit of hyperbole in there as well. Certainly the Bible never explicitly says “thou shalt hate gays” but it does condemn it as an abomination, which doesn’t lend itself to treating gays very cordially.

  • 182. SnugglyBuffalo  |  June 6, 2009 at 1:36 am

    Whew, I thought I’d give your links the benefit of the doubt, but…

    I got pretty much what I expected: a poor understanding of science and emotional arguments for God’s existence.

    You’re gonna have to do much better than that, Seeker.

  • 183. Seeker  |  June 6, 2009 at 10:02 am

    SnuggylyBuffalo, I’m not sure which site you checked out. If it was the doesgodexist link and you only saw a “poor understanding of science and emotional arguments for God’s existence” then you did not spend much time reading t the fact that your two posts are only ten minutes apart doesn’t give me much belief that you gave it much of a chance.

    Yelo, I am truly sorry you had to suffer under catholicism. That denomination is much like the Jews were in Jesus’ day. They added their own traditions to the Law of Moses and corrupted it so much that it bore no resemblance to what God ordained. That is why Jesus denounced the religious rulers of his day. You can not build your faith on what a religious group teaches; you have to build it on what the Bible says.

    I will answer my original question. The Bible does not tell us to hate anyone. In fact, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7) Jesus tells us to love our neighbor. And he goes far beyond actions. At one point, he states that the Law says “do not murder” but he said that anyone who hates someone in his heart has sinned. He states that the Law says “do not commit adultery” but then says whoever lusts after another man’s wife has already committed adultery in his heart.

    It is our heart which leads us to actions – whether good or bad. The Bible, which I believe is God’s Word, tells us to love our neighbors and to treat all people with respect. In Galatians 3:28, Paul writes “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave or free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus”.

    The Bible tells us we are all one. There is no room for discrimination or hate. If a church teaches you to hate or discriminate, it is wrong. But don’t turn from God because of them.

  • 184. BigHouse  |  June 6, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Jesus tells us that we need to hate our mother and father to follow him. So, you’re wrong on that count too, Seeker.

  • 185. Seeker  |  June 6, 2009 at 11:53 am

    The teachings of Jesus is intended to be read intelligently. It’s pretty easy to pick isolated scriptures out of the Bible and deliberately misinterpret them.

    When Jesus spoke of ‘hating father and mother’ he was using a method of Hebrew exaggeration to establish a point, as he did often. He is saying that God must come first, even if you have to disappoint your parents’. He makes it clear in his other teachings that we are to love our parents; so he is not telling you to hate your parents but, rather, that when it comes to a question of choosing between God’s requirements and parental demands, God’s requirements must come first.

    He also tells us to “hate” our own lives but he is not suggesting self-hatred but the need to put God first.

  • 186. Seeker  |  June 6, 2009 at 11:59 am

    To follow up on my last post, the same holds true of situations at church. If a religious organization or church official makes demands that conflict with what the Bible teaches, you must follow the Bible.

    The church is made up of humans. Faith for some of them is rather shallow but faith for some of them is extremely deep – those are the ones who help the homeless, visit those who are sick, feed those who are hungry and comfort those who have lost loved ones.

    You can’t base your faith on a church or on what others who wear the Christian name do. You have to read and study the Bible and follow it.

  • 187. ArchangelChuck  |  June 6, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Seeker: It’s an interesting contrast to “honor thy father and mother.”

    Your suggestion is merely a restating of what the problem is. Reading the bible is the precisely the reason that fundamentalists exist, and the rationale that if the church disagrees with the bible then you must follow the bible is what births them.

    I have a better suggestion. Read the bible, but have a well-rounded education in both secular and religious matters. That will most often equip one with the tools necessary to pry the dogma away from his deity.

  • 188. yelo  |  June 6, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    Seeker, how rude of you to say “you have to read and study the Bible and follow it” !!!

    This is what Neece’s article is about: arrogance and immorality of religious people. I am NOT telling you that you should try real hard to become more intelligent and notice idiocy where it exists. Feel free to read the Bible, Quran, Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf. But leave me alone with my conclusions about the reality. I do NOT have to read and study any “holy” book.

    People like you, convinced that they have monopoly on the truth, teach me a lot about human psychology and universal cowardice to face the unknown.

    I have thought about life for a long time and reached the conclusion that the soul is probably a concept/idea of (non-existant) ego, derived from a misplaced instinct of self preservation. Not only will I vanish when I die, but my self, or “I”, is illusory throughout my life already, now. I am not helping others because such is the wish of some God, but because I am a tiny leaf on the tree of existance and I feel unity with everything that lives.

    Think about Quran and about Allah’s commandment to exterminate infidels. Yours is NOT the only scripture, which creates monsters.

  • 189. Seeker  |  June 6, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    Yelo, if you think I am “rude” to say you have to follow the Bible, then I suppose Jesus is too, because he said that the only way to the Father is through him. Of course, if you don’t believe the Bible, then that will not be of any concern to you.

    “My” scriptures do not create monsters. People create their own monsters based on their own agenda. A lot of people like to point to the horrors of the Crusades, the Ku Klux Klan and the Inquisitions to prove that Christianity is a horrible thing. Those things were not taught in the Bible; they were thought up by men.

    But don’t tell me that atheists are more moral. Look at the tens of millions of people who have died under atheist regimes by Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, the atheist state of Albania and so many others. Are all atheists bad because of these?

    Well, all Christians (even fundamental Christians) are not bad or morally deficient because some people in church don’t live the way they should.

    I get extremely frustrated at some of the people who go to church where I go because, to them, they only come because they have to or feel obligated to. They sit in the pews, don’t sing, don’t talk to anyone and leave as soon as service is over. Then you see them out in the world living just like everyone else. Those are the people who turn off Neece and most of you.

    Personally, I resent that they live that way. And not to say that I am perfect. I have my own faults. But I have a promise of something better than this life and it is based on the security of knowing that the Bible is true.

    If you don’t want to believe me, that is up to you. I have tried to state my case but it doesn’t appear that anyone is interested so, have it your own way.

    Maybe discussing something this serious is best done one-on-one instead of in a public forum. If any of you wants to have a serious conversation, e-mail me.

    It is ConstantlySeeking777@gmail.com

    I will turn the forum back over to you.

  • 190. Seeker  |  June 6, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    Sorry, I did forget to address Archangel Chuck. I, too, believe in a well rounded eduction. I have an Associates Degree, a Bachelor of Arts Degree and an MBA. I definitely believe in a good education.

    A secular education can help you have a successful life, materially speaking. But there is more to life than just breathing, eating and being entertained. There is a moral code that we should all want to embrace and, as you already know, I believe that is in the Bible.

    I think a well-rounded education involves study of the Bible, too.

    Thank you all for your time. I hope that whatever path you take is blessed.

  • 191. SnugglyBuffalo  |  June 6, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Honestly, it only took me 10 minutes to skim those sites and dismiss them as garbage. I first checked the student one, and the very first thing I see is the assertion that violent crime rates are going up each decade. A quick search reveals that that is absolutely false, that violent crime rates have been going down pretty steadily the last couple of decades. The rest of what I saw was all appeals to emotion, nothing relating to solid evidence. Maybe it’s hiding somewhere on that site, but I couldn’t find it.

    The other site makes some typical scientific arguments that a god exists, basically resorting to a god-of-the-gaps argument: “we don’t understand how things happened in the early universe, therefore goddidit.” It also asserted that the fact that matter cannot be created nor destroyed is scientifically wrong, at which point I really couldn’t contain my laughter anymore and closed the browser tab.

  • 192. cag  |  June 6, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    It took me 10 words “In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth” to conclude that the bible is a fictional piece of control propaganda. As science and logic have shown that the earth is not the center of the universe, the bible is bunk. As to it taking god 5 days to create the earth and one day (“on the fourth day….) to create all the other bodies (stars, planets, comets, etc.) in their trillions, give me a break. If the bible is the word of god then the meaning of omniscience is different than my understanding. The bible’s postulation of the creation fits with the understanding of ignorant bronze age desert dwellers, but has no relevance to anyone who has an education.

  • 193. yelo  |  June 6, 2009 at 11:59 pm

    Seeker, I appreciate your good wishes and I realize that you try to be as genuine and ethical as possible.

    The bottom line is that I feel it is honest to admit that I DO NOT KNOW if I do not know. I do not regard believing as anything do to with morality, but rather with imprinted patterns of thinking and behaviour.

    If you regard yourself as a a “seeker” and want to be moral why don’t you remove the cannon-ball of prejudices, fairy-tales, attachment to church “service”, etc. from your leg? Perhaps if you drop all this junk you will become free and HONEST to the truth?

    It seems however that like most church-goers you are paralyzed by fear that one day you, or your loved ones, will die and your essence will turn to void

  • 194. Not in a Box  |  June 7, 2009 at 4:14 am

    I’m agnostic. To be more specific I’m the type that believes I’ll most likely never be able to prove or disprove the existence of a god(s). However, II don’t think that tells you my moral stances on various issues. I also don’t claim to be morally superior than another group of people.

    Just as there are many types of agnostics or atheists there are many types of Christians, Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists.

    Not all people of faith believe their religious text is to be taken literally. After all the Bible was written by many authors, sometimes second-hand, and translated many time. Beyond that, many people don’t agree with all aspects of their faith.

    Some Catholics including several members of my family, are very much for womens’ rights, support abortion rights, support comprehensive sex ed, and want teens to have access to birth control. Would you have guessed those stances knowing only their religion?

    Not everyone who practices a religion is a mindless zombie who hates homosexuals, wants to keep women in the kitchen and thinks war is cool but death with dignity is not. Likewise, many atheists are morally corrupt.

    The fact of the matter is that most people in this world are fairly nice people with a few flaws. Some people are evil beyond belief. But no religion, or lack of religion, can claim it’s people are better than another. The groups are simply too big for moral stereotypes to apply.

  • 195. pochp  |  June 7, 2009 at 6:03 am

    Very good point notinabox.

  • 196. Mark Daniel  |  June 22, 2009 at 6:01 am

    Try to read and see who is really ignorant..

    Ten reasons to believe in God

    1# Are you sure God doesn’t exist? You are willing to contend, aren’t you, that there is a tiny chance that God does exist? If you don’t believe in him, and he DOES exist, you’re screwed. You HAVE A CHOICE. When the day comes to choose who enters Heaven, it is highly doubtful you will be chosen, if you don’t believe. Isn’t it safer just to believe?

    2# So you have moral dilemmas? They’re annoying, aren’t they? What is right and what is wrong? Who knows? The law? Crap, you cross the street at a red light. God knows what is right and what is wrong. Believe, and all your moral problems are solved. If you are ever stuck again with a moral dilemma, just ask your local priest, rabbi or equivalent. He’ll explain it all to you.

    3# You have sinned, you know. And you DO know it. Even if you don’t call it sin. So you call it “a mistake”. But you can’t forgive yourself. God knows you’ve tried. You can’t forgive yourself. Well, if God can forgive you, you’ll be able to forgive yourself too. All the major religions have methods of forgiveness. For example:

    * Christianity : confession,
    * Islam : Ramadan,
    * Judaism : Yom Kippur.

    4# Can you explain infinity? I can’t. I’m talking about two dimensions of infinity. Spacial and temporal. Talk quantum mechanics, and dimension folding all you like, the human mind can never grasp it. I don’t think anyone can comprehend infinity. If you believe in God, no problem.

    5# You can’t possibly believe that evolution theory completely. Oh, I’ll agree, natural selection exists. Of course it does. Creation theory does not conflict with the belief in natural selection, don’t make any mistakes. Of course, many people believe it does, but that’s mostly because they are misinformed. Natural selection hardly explains Man. And where is that missing link? You can’t possibly believe that Man (a conscious being) originated from the monkey, which is so far below him?

    6# What happens when we die? Scary, isn’t it? Don’t you have a soul? Of course you do. You can’t possibly, deep in your heart believe that we just die and disintegrate? There has to be an afterlife.

    7# The bible contains predictions of the future. Many predictions have already happened, so if you are a disbeliever, you can see for yourself. No other book in the world has so many prophetic words and codes interwoven into it as the bible. Many experiments have shown this. Coincidence?

    8# The world today is full of pornography and gore and is low on moral fiber. You know it’s wrong. And you sure as heck don’t want your children to grow up in such a society. The return to morals is the only solution, and the only way to do that is through BELIEF.

    9# Most of the world does, in fact, believe in God. How could this be, if God didn’t exist? If you’ve strayed off the path, you must return to it. Everyone was born capable of believing in God. Some haven’t found Him yet, others have lost Him. He WILL take you back.

    10# Look deep inside your heart. God is there.

  • 197. Mark Daniel  |  June 22, 2009 at 6:21 am

    What if…?

    if there is God and I believe(follow) Him then I would be in heaven.
    but if there is no God then nothings lost in me.

    if I believe that God doesn’t exist but he really does exist then I would be in hell. and everything is lost forever.

    Think about it.. ^^

  • 198. Ubi Dubium  |  June 22, 2009 at 8:07 am

    Wow. OrDover, I hope you see this for your list of the arguments Xians try to throw at us. Mark’s put a bunch of them all into one neat list! Lets see:

    #1 Pascal’s Wager

    #2: You can’t be moral without god

    #3 “Sin”

    #4 I don’t understand it therefore goddidit (argument from ignorance)

    #5 I don’t like the idea of evolution therefore goddidit.

    #6 I want there to be an afterlife, therefore there is.

    #7 The bible fulfills its own prophecies and is therefore true.

    #8 You can’t be moral without god (again)

    #9 argument ad populum

    And then a whole second post about Pascal again!

    Mark, if you’re not a drive-by troll, would you PLEASE go read the two posts linked at the Big Red Exclamation Point before you post here again.

  • 199. Brian  |  June 22, 2009 at 9:46 am

    @ Mark Daniel

    Wow, okay where do we even start?

    1# Are you sure God doesn’t exist? You are willing to contend, aren’t you, that there is a tiny chance that God does exist? If you don’t believe in him, and he DOES exist, you’re screwed.

    That’s of course assuming you pick the RIGHT god. How do you know YOU aren’t screwed because you’re not following Islam or Hinduism? How do you know Cerebus isn’t going to drag you kicking and screaming across the River Styx because you didn’t put your belief in Zeus?

    Believe, and all your moral problems are solved. If you are ever stuck again with a moral dilemma, just ask your local priest, rabbi or equivalent. He’ll explain it all to you.

    Right because no priest or rabbi or person of faith has ever grappled with right and wrong. No preacher has ever gotten caught with a male prostitute. And every Christian treats his slave with respect… wait what?

    4# Can you explain infinity? I can’t. I’m talking about two dimensions of infinity. Spacial and temporal. Talk quantum mechanics, and dimension folding all you like, the human mind can never grasp it. I don’t think anyone can comprehend infinity. If you believe in God, no problem.

    You know two thousand years ago, people couldn’t explain disease either. But by believing that demons were causing their convulsions they had no problem. Oh no wait yes they did, because the exorcisms performed still didn’t cure them. And you’re assuming the questions of NOT understanding everything about the universe is somehow a problem for us. Frankly I find the questions exciting.

    Natural selection hardly explains Man. And where is that missing link? You can’t possibly believe that Man (a conscious being) originated from the monkey, which is so far below him?

    Honestly I used to think that way too. You know what turned me around? I actually READ A BOOK ABOUT EVOLUTION! Sure the way you describe it, it sounds ludicrous. But once you have an actual biologist break it down for you, it not only makes sense, it makes you wonder why you thought anything different. Again, tell somebody 2000 years ago that tiny invisible creatures were what was causing that cold and they’d have said, “you don’t really believe that do you?”

    6# What happens when we die? Scary, isn’t it? Don’t you have a soul? Of course you do. You can’t possibly, deep in your heart believe that we just die and disintegrate? There has to be an afterlife.

    Just because the alternative of something is scary doesn’t make it true. I don’t get what keeps a life force inside a body and what happens to it after it dies either. What happens after a car runs out of gas? Why does my computer battery never charge up to the full capacity it has when I first bought it. That energy must be going somewhere. To an afterlife maybe? Or is it just breaking back down into its individual atoms and dispersing? By your thinking, does that mean that animals have an afterlife? What about viruses and bacteria? Where does their lifeforce go after they die?

    7# The bible contains predictions of the future.

    So does Nostradamus. So do Mayan temples. So do those people on the 900 numbers they advertise after midnight. Yet the one thing that links these people together is that their prophecies are only understood in retrospect. Which is just a fancy way of saying, after something happened they claimed “Hey look, this person SAID this would happen.” when a prophesy can make us know ahead of time that something is going to happen and not after the fact, then it’s something to be considered.

    The return to morals is the only solution, and the only way to do that is through BELIEF.

    Or ya know, just good parenting, taking an interest in what your kids are doing.

    9# Most of the world does, in fact, believe in God. How could this be, if God didn’t exist?

    Most of the world believed the sun went round the earth about 500 years ago, so it must have been true right?

    10# Look deep inside your heart. God is there.

    (sigh) You obviously don’t know what kind of site you’ve come to here. Pretty much all of us HAVE looked. And then we looked again. And then we looked a little harder. If God’s in there, He’s taking great pains to conceal himself.

  • 200. yelo  |  June 22, 2009 at 10:24 am

    Brian, I admire you. I also read the grand mal by Mark Daniel, but all I wanted to say after his jaw went lax was “I forgive you. Now go away”. Thanks for your effort.

  • 201. orDover  |  June 22, 2009 at 12:51 pm

    This is my favorite one:

    Natural selection hardly explains Man. And where is that missing link? You can’t possibly believe that Man (a conscious being) originated from the monkey, which is so far below him?

    I’d like to know a few things. How does Mark define what constitutes a “conscious being.” Why does an ape not meet that definition. According to everything I have learned, apes are very much conscious. They pass the Mirror Test. They form complex societies with fads, fashions, and rules. They understand the meaning of fairness (the difference between “right” and “wrong”). They respect the dead bodies of their members. They use tools to hunt. They have the ability to recognize what sort of trees bear what sort of fruit and when said fruit comes into season. They understand the concept of cooperation and the mutual, shared benefit that comes with it. They are very much conscious beings.

  • 202. paleale  |  June 22, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Duh, OrDover.

    Apes are smaller. And hairier. And they can’t speak English.

  • 203. Quester  |  June 22, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Good job, Ubi. I hadn’t really distinguished further than:

    1) Pascal’s Wager.

    2-10) Reality is hard, and I like to be ignorant.

  • 204. orDover  |  June 22, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    paleale,

    Um. They can speak American Sign Language, which is English. Pwned.

  • 205. nate  |  July 9, 2009 at 2:21 pm

    on number 5, please reconsider the whole not having kids thing. the world needs more people like you, and your children could grow up to resist these religious yahoos like you are.

  • 206. nate  |  July 9, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    my above post was not part of this crazy conversation, but referring to the original post. also, we didn’t originate from monkeys, we have common ancestry. and anyone who doesn’t see the similarities among the apes is obviously not much smarter than one.

  • 207. Sue  |  July 11, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    What you said does make sense and am not here to argue about what you choose to believe or not believe because we all have the freedom to believe in whatever we want. However, to say that atheists are morally superior to christians is an arguable point in that no one person is better than another because of what they believe or don’t believe. A good friend of mine recently told me that they are atheist and thought that I might not want to be their friend after telling me. I respect my friend’s right to believe in whatever they choose and love them even more for sharing it with me.

  • 208. Dev  |  July 17, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    So i started reading all these comments, completely expecting a raging argument between the churchies and the non-believers. It always happens when someone makes an anti-god post. I don’t know how churchies do it really. Do they all secretly troll the internet looking for anti-god posts to attack in an attempt to justify what they (subconsciously) know to be INSANE? Maybe god (I lower-case the name on purpose btw) has a PR department.

    Anyway, atheists, my friends, arguing with these “people” is seriously a waste of time. Do you think they’d be churchies at all if they subscribed to logic and rationale? No. So using logic and rationale to try and take away their silly security blanket just isn’t going to work. They need it.

    Contrary to popular belief, religion doesn’t breed stupidity, stupidity breeds religion.

    Oh and @ Universalist1: You are just as much the problem as the churchies themselves. You preach this idea of “Tolerance” just because you’re socially programmed to think it’s right. You are just regurgitating what you’ve been told. It is NOT wrong to judge someone for their beliefs when those beliefs are harmful to…well…EVERYTHING. Religion will ruin this world. Universalist1, given your philosophy, do you think that people should stop “oppressing” murderers? Some of them think that murder is perfectly acceptable and that morality doesn’t exist. Do we have to respect their beliefs? No. That’s dumb.

    @ the non-believers: I hate religion just as much as the next intelligent, compassionate person, but we have to stop trying to change the churchie mind. It is impossible. Instead, change yourself, be the best you can be, lead by example, and let’s hope people finally catch on.

  • 209. George Klein  |  August 3, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Just a response to #13. I think the surviving boy must have told you about the “atheist alcoholic socialist and that day he was filling his coffee mug with vodka”. The same applies to the following “was thrown from the bus by his father seconds before it hit the bottom”. There was nobody else alive after the accident to inform you about the above. Smart boy, indeed. To remember all that after suffering brain damage is really a miracle. There may be another explanation. God must have come to you in person and told you that whole story. That’s another miracle. But I just don’t believe in miracles . . .
    I am a humanist. I respect everybody’s opinion about life, god etc., but when I see such a vitriolic attack on a person (the bus driver) and through him to all atheists I am upset. But, if you believe in god, than be sure he will punish you for your idiocy.
    In my eyes you are not better than the 9/11 terrorists . . .
    Shame on you!

  • 210. Nattybug  |  August 3, 2009 at 8:40 pm

    I think this article was beautifully written. Well done, Neece.

  • 211. Big T  |  August 4, 2009 at 12:50 am

    On number 2 one way men are better involves snow pee and writing. Hey it is not much but women are general better so I have to take what I can get

  • 212. Anonymous  |  August 13, 2009 at 5:23 am

    I’ve always questioned where morals come from, never been religous.I’ve given many of my friends a place to live, loaned many of my friends money when they needed it.At this point in time I’m about to lose everything just for being a nice guy.Seems nobody cares.My roomate keeps telling me “you gotta get yours”.He seems to imply that it doesn’t matter how you get it.Sorry I just don’t see it that way.I’ve tried to be the best person I know how to be but it seems that just isn’t good enough.At this point in time I don’t what to do but I know this, I won’t compromise what I believe to be the right thing to do.

    We the people is where it stands. Thankyou

  • 213. yelo  |  August 13, 2009 at 6:44 am

    212 – why are you going to lose everything?
    yellow_flower_61@hotmail.com

  • 214. Anonymous  |  August 13, 2009 at 8:33 am

    I’m out of money.Seems that its all about anymore.Welcome to america.

  • 215. Shadow Tree  |  August 16, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    Neece:
    I can understand your point of views very well, i do believe in a creator which it’s truly form can be the energy that creates all. Your opinions are based on religious people and not on real spiritual ones.

    I can tell you this as i am born in a family which was going always in the religious way and i decided to apart from religion since i saw a lot of things that there where very wrong. To believe in a superior force which for me is connected with the universe and nature itself, i don’t have to follow a religion.

    I have my bad experience’s with religious fanatics and i am with you in that, but remember that someone that is real spiritual will not be like that. Just like a note from Albert Einstein in the past, as the same time there is religious fanatics and atheist fanatics too.

    I must admit i have met both in my life and they are the most intolerant people to go. I consider myself a moral person and i am against intolerance, i am against homophobia, xenophobia, abused against women and animals, i believe in that men and women are the same are the same, i believe in that science is needed and it most improved everyday for the positiveness of all. With all of this, i believe in a superior creator too.

    I am not perfect and i will never will but religious has a lot of wrongs at the same time people behind the science. Must of us who have an open minded, we know that there is already a cure for aids but they don’t want to release it. Science hides a lot of things too same as religion, so they both have their immoral sides. I

    I believe that we are not alone in this world and it is very egocentric to as human beings (believers or non believers) to think that we can be the only beings on this gigantic universe. That is my opinion as we are free in this world.

    Once again i understand and agree with most of your point of views and all the real atheist people i have met are moral contrary to the religious fanatics and atheist fanatics aka pseudo religious/pseudo atheist.

    I will be looking for more of your writings here.
    Peace

    I will look

  • 216. Daniel  |  October 5, 2009 at 3:54 pm

    What?!

    There is at least 1 serious flaw with each of the 10 reasons listed.

    None of this is valid..

  • 217. Joshua  |  October 5, 2009 at 4:19 pm

    There is at least 1 flaw with each of the books of the Bible.

    None of it is valid…

  • 218. Matt  |  October 6, 2009 at 2:02 am

    I think I love you. :)

  • 219. Sacha  |  October 8, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    You rule, princess! You’re number 1. I wish I was an Alien freak with eight pairs of hands so that I would give you 16 thumbs up!!!

  • 220. George  |  October 8, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Everyone must stand on his own. None of us will have an excuse.

    If you do wind up standing before God in judgement, what could you possibly say in your defence?

    I never heard the claim that Jesus Christ died for my sin? The nature that is in me that is opposed to God? The one that sends thought into your mind, you do no summons them, they arrive on thier own. Yes, those thoughts. Christ died for that condition in all of mankind. There are sins of commission, and sins of omision.

    Paul called it the natural, un-regeneration. The corruption must put on incorruption. That was done through the person, and work of Jesus Christ. That is the claim of the Bible.

    A caveman can understand it.

  • 221. yelo  |  October 8, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Religion is a socially accepted delusion.

    Isn’t it weird that we are OK will billions of deluded fools, but can’t stand delusional schizophrenics and have to isolate them?

    The need to believe is in human nature. It is painful “not to know”; so we all fall in this trap of believing, usually in childhood, which is in fact “virtual knowing”. I hypothesise that the humanity is doomed, because we do not evolve quickly enough not to exterminate ourselves before we become reasonable again.

    Viva cocroaches !!!

  • 222. Joshua  |  October 8, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    If you do wind up standing before God in judgement, what could you possibly say in your defence?

    Why did you make Christianity look like it was invented? And if it was not invented, why didn’t you lead me to some evidence that demonstrated it could not have been invented?

    That’s what I would say.

  • 223. LeoPardus  |  October 8, 2009 at 4:45 pm

    Post 220:

    Stream of consciousness drug trip?

  • 224. Joe  |  October 8, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Isn’t it weird that we are OK will billions of deluded fools, but can’t stand delusional schizophrenics and have to isolate them? (#221)

    I’ve heard of schizophrenics but not delusional schizophrenics. If someone is a schizophrenic and then becomes delusional, are they then considered normal? I’m just curious. No your not. Yes I am, I really want to know. No you don’t. Yes, I do so shut up.

  • 225. George  |  October 8, 2009 at 7:18 pm

    LEO, I am not on drugs. Thank you.

  • 226. George  |  October 8, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    post #222 Joshua, you answered:

    Why did you make Christianity look like it was invented? And if it was not invented, why didn’t you lead me to some evidence that demonstrated it could not have been invented?

    That seems a bit shallow to me. He has led you. You allowed your self to be taken away by the dulling of your own mind. As scripture clearly states, “professing themselves to be wise, they have become fools.”

    “The wisdom of man is foolishness to God,” you know the drill. When you do not understand, you wind up with all sorts of doctrine, then the ultimate, self worship. Man is it, there is nothing higher.

    I have not seen any of you address the nation of Israel, the geneology of the Bible, Old and New Testament. Where we stand in prophecy with Israel back in the land after 70AD destruction by Rome.

    If you want to understand the truth, a great portion of it is found in prophecy regarding Israel and the generation that sees the restoration. Then comes the cry to see it destroyed, as we have today in 22 Arab and Muslim nations.

    Not to mention Russia. Deny the role of the Jews to your shame.

    You have fallen into the oldest snare there is, pride.

    Joshua, you seem like a smart person. It is unfortunate to see you so confused about the reality of where we are in human history.

    There must be a way to get you back.

  • 227. Joshua  |  October 8, 2009 at 10:09 pm

    That seems a bit shallow to me. He has led you.

    That seems a bit conceited to me. How do you know?

  • 228. Roy  |  October 8, 2009 at 10:56 pm

    1.No god tells me to hate gay people, so I have no reason to hate them. In fact I think if gay people love each other and want to get married, more power to them. Why should we stop love and caring based on gender? I encourage loving and caring any way it manifests itself.

    I would even take it a step further and say that I don’t think *anybody* should get married, if by marriage you mean a state license or approval from a religious institution.

    2.No god tells me that women are inferior and should subject themselves to men. So I’m equal to a man. Except getting spiders out of the house. He can be superior to me in that department. Oh, and opening jars. He can have that one too.

    I understand why you might want help opening cans but getting spiders out of the house? What’s up with that?

    3.No god tells me to pray instead of seeking medical attention. I believe in all kinds of scientific research and medicine. I even believe in stem cell research. I also think a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body. This probably goes up under the ‘women are equal’ entry as well, because I think it’s ridiculous that an old man I will never meet gets to decide what I can and can’t do with my body. Oh, and euthanasia should be considered an option, although it would have to be properly done so that no one gets murdered. But come on, if life is so freaking precious, why make some sick and dying person go through agony and humiliation and endure countless medical procedures just to stay alive? That’s insane.

    Thank God terminating a pregnancy is not a decision I will ever have to make. The only involvment I’ve ever had with this issue was that a former girl friend accidentally became pregnant. The decision was entirely her’s. She asked my opinion. I lovingly gave it. She made her choice. I accepted it.

    It is our responsibility to make absolutely certain that those who love us know our wishes with regard to the conclusion of our lives. We can only hope that they will choose to accept and honor our wishes.

    4.No god tells me to hate people who believe in the same god but in a “wrong” way. Ok, that’s just stupid. At thanksgiving dinner my cousin was harassed by the fundamentalist methodists there because she went to 3 different bible camps from 3 different churches. She said, it’s all the same god, why does it bother you so much? I had to agree with her. They’re so hateful and ignorant.

    I agree and have nothing useful to add.

    5.No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s. Also, as noted above, I also believe that mistakes happen, and so do horrible crimes against women. The morning after pill should be available to girls and women who need them to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term. Oh, and back to the ‘be fruitful and multiply thing’. I didn’t even have to have kids in the first place because I’m strong enough in myself that I don’t need some namesake to carry on for me or continue to overpopulate the planet simply because a god said I had to, thousands of years ago. Or worse, I am not starving in some third world country, having babies one after the other for my whole short life because the christians forced their god on me long ago and imposed their ridiculous rules and told us stupid lies.

    Sex is fun for sure. Some of the most joyous experiences in my life have occurred in bed and in a few other places. ;-)
    I will do everything in my power to help my children learn to be responsible. If that means not doing it then great. If that means getting to know the young man/woman and their parents before the first date happens then it will happen. If that means explaining the risks and explaining how to mitigate them effectively then great. If they need my wife’s or my permission to be on birth contol pills or some other reliable form of contraception then it will be given along with advice on protecting their hearts. My wife and I have learned plenty of painful leasons about that over the course of our lives. The morning after pill should be available. I would go a step further a say that *all* perscription drugs should be available to anyone without the state’s or a doctors permission. (I know *this* will generate some debate) That is not to say that I think it wise not to seek medical advice before obtaining and using said drug. I’m sure the reader can probably extrapolate my opinion on the legality of any drug. (Another topic that will surely generate debate). The very astute reader can probably figure out what my political leanings are from my comments, but my politics (or lack thereof) are probably a topic for another site.

    HALFTIME (More later. I’ve been asked to make fewer and longer comments, but there is a practical limit to how few I can make and still contribute anything worthwhile *and* not drone on and on and on. My apologize for any typo that made it past my attempts at editing.)

  • 229. Roy  |  October 9, 2009 at 1:33 am

    2ND HALF (After a refreshing break which included a smoke while basking in the afterglow of a Rockies victory. My wife’s not in the mood right now, to watch baseball that is, so I had to go it alone this evening. And besides, she’s not a Rockies fan so it looks like I’m on my own for the duration.)

    6.No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)

    Agreed. (And I don’t even hate Hitler. Never even knew him. I’m not bothering because he was neither yours, mine, nor ours. He was himself with all of his imperfections. I’m not really into people bashing, regardles of how much evil they caused. He/She who has not caused any evil are welcome to inititate pointing the finger at his/her brother/sister.

    7.No god tells me to start a war over another land having the wrong god or the wrong types of people (see the one above), so I don’t have to support pointless wars that justify some ridiculous ancient prophecy or for other silly reasons, like god talking directly to the leader of my country. (Don’t even get me started on how scary that is. At least he’s gone now!)

    Agreed. Hopefully George is paying close attention to this one. No offense George.

    8.No god makes promises to me about being a martyr, so I have no reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a train station or whatever kills the most innocent people.

    Agreed *and* I would add that no god has authorized me to take revenge on doctors whose professional ethics I disagree with. In fact, some gods have expressly forbiden it (by way of their holy spirit(s), of course).

    9.No god makes open-ended promises that will never come true about armageddon and going up to heaven soon, so I am responsible about the environment, and try my best to have a small impact on the planet, and also support research into making things better for everyone through science and smarter living.

    I think that prophesies about apocalyptic battles and “going up” to heaven soon are metaphorical so I certainly believe we must be good stewards of the environment. We might disagree on the best way to go about that, but that is another debate for another site.

    10.No god promises eternal life to me, so I understand that this life is precious. I take personal responsibility seriously, and I live my life the best way I can because it’s the only one I’ve got. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason.

    Personal responsibility is essential, which implies placing blame squarely on ourselves (not a boogeyman) when we fail, and humbly recognizing the part we played when things go well. Precious it is and none are more precious than others.

    Now I will hit the bunker and await the incoming missiles.

  • 230. Shadow Tree  |  October 9, 2009 at 5:04 am

    Roy:

    I agree with you completely. No matter what faith we have, we have to act and do the right thing because that is the way and not because of fear or anything in the after life subject.
    For me God (the creator) is not a personal god since before we existed, the universe and all nature was first. For me God is all that is good which is connected with the universe and nature and loves equally all of its creation.

    I don’t believe in what religion says about the wars, to look different at others, because that is just a human thing. I admit i have faith and i always searching for answers. I most act since i am responsible for my own actions and i must do the best to have a better life and make a better environment.

    I never did like religion since with my experiences i saw a lot of religious people manage God like an alter ego of themselves and use a name to do what they want. For me God is not religion and men (including myself first) needs to learn more and more everyday on this life before thinking in the after life.

    I hope this subject remains without any insults, intolerance or prejudice. No matter what people think different, respect always must be there.

  • 231. George  |  October 9, 2009 at 8:29 am

    Roy, where does the Bible say sex is not to be enjoyed???

    Or fun, as you simply put it. Make up your own mind what I mean by that.

  • 232. Motoman  |  October 9, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Normally if someone had said these things to me (10 reasons ….) I would call them a prejudiced bigot for lumping everyone under the same umbrella etc. But I can tell from your tone it is more anger than an attempt at rational discussion so I am not offended. One thing I cannot leave unchallenged though is your statement about Hitler. He was in no way Christian, not one iota. He was an occultist if anything.
    What you have written, or rather the way you have written, is an example of the attitude that makes all the trouble in this world. It is the “us and them” attitude. No one has a lock on this poisonous attitude; it is apparent in believers and atheists. Ego is universal. In the believer, I think the belief that you are close to the creator of the universe has a powerful effect on the ego. Paradoxically, what happens is their behavior becomes precisely the opposite of what Jesus preached. In the atheist the belief that you have finally gained enlightenment and shed the fairy tale and freed yourself from the bonds that the unwashed masses labor under has a powerful effect on their ego as well.
    It was the most “professed” religious that Jesus leveled his sternest warnings to. Outward appearances do not make a Christian. The heart must change and if the change is real then love and understanding will override the innate need to be right (Ego) in that person.
    I’m sorry for the behavior of some professed Christians that has caused the hatred you hold in your heart to exist. If we all were a little (lot) more understanding then different view points could coexist and there would be peace.
    I don’t know why so many people feel that if a person does not believe what they believe they are stupid. Neither side can prove in a laboratory they are right. So the discussions trying to prove one position over the other will go round and round ad infinitem.
    I’ve said in another discussion that I believe (key words are “I believe”) that Christianity has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond all doubt as that would eliminate the need for faith. Jesus himself said faith was a requirement. Trying to understand Christianity without the key component of faith is like trying to fly a plane after you jettison all the fuel. Even though the plane itself is flight worthy it has lost its means of propulsion and will sink to the ground.
    Jesus said to go into all the world and preach the good news, not impose the good news. As a Christian I will share what I believe with another if they are interested. Because I love Jesus and can say unequivocally that He has changed my life. If someone does not believe what I believe I don’t feel the need force it on them and prove it. I do not think any less of them and I certainly do not hate them.

  • 233. Roy  |  October 9, 2009 at 10:26 am

    I would ditto Motoman’s comment. Very well put, Motoman.

  • 234. LeoPardus  |  October 9, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Roy, George, others:

    This is NOT a site for theists to discuss and debate their beliefs with theists. There are scads of sites for that. GO FIND ONE!

  • 235. George  |  October 9, 2009 at 11:43 am

    The Bible is full of warnings, from Genesis to Revelation. It is not about forcing anyone to believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God. His death, his righteousness, his blood, his life and his turth.

    Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life (logos). no man comes to the father but by me.”

    He stated he would die, take his own life back on the third day, because he was and is God. This is the Gospel, that you can be born of the Spirit of God, his spirit joining yours.

    It seems that beating around the bush is the way of many Christians, the gospel presented as the Bible states it has to be sugar coated like Mini Wheats.

    No so. The Bible takes a firm stant against homosexuality, but there are main stream churches who now disagree with the Bible. Why is that?

    There are main stream protestant denominations that say the virgin birth was not necessary. Why is that?

    You can have your god, or gods. Have all your 10 to 10,000,000 reasons your god does this or that, so what?

    Jesus said, “I have not come to bring peace, I have come with a sword.” Not as in Islam. This sword is to divide peope according to believing in the work of God.
    When asked by the Jews, “what is the work of God.” Jesus replied, “To believe on him who he sent,” speaking of himself.

    Believe what? That the purpose of him coming was to finalize the sin offering. Period. It is why he stated, “It is Finished.” What was finished???

    God plan of redemption. Done.

    The vale was rent in two from top to bottom./ The vale in the Holy of Holies in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The same temple that Titus destroyed in 70 AD.

    The replacement temple that is going to be built in Jerusalem as part of the seven year peace plan coming to planet earth.

    You people need to be shocked inot understanding this is not just a day to day life you are living. It has an eternal weight to it.

    You need to deny who Israel is. You need to deny that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jabob is the eternal God who created heaven and earth.

    You have become a god to yourself. You use every reason you can find to deny the God of the Bible, and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
    You trample the Blood of Christ under your feet, like the Bible states. You have made the cross of Christ foolishness.

    The Bible states it just the way it is, in reality, not your godless reality that you are so smug about in your ignorance of the truth.

    “The preaching of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are parishing.”

  • 236. George  |  October 9, 2009 at 11:45 am

    There Roy, there is your answer to your post.

  • 237. Motoman  |  October 9, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Hi Leo,

    “This blog attempts to critically, but respectfully, address issues with these religious ideologies, especially Christianity”

    If these issues are being addressed wouldn’t it make sense to allow some commentary from the opposing viewpoint, as long as the comments are respectful? I am only trying to understand my fellow human beings. Discussions on forums with people who believe what I believe are important but discussions with people who do not believe what I believe are important as well if there is to be any understanding. However, if you are not open to this I won’t post here anymore. Thank you for yours and everyone else’s time.

  • 238. Shadow Tree  |  October 9, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Motoman:

    You are a good example of the true Christian attitude. It is very unfair that true Christians get stereotyped by the actions of religious fanatics or the ones who try to pretend to be. Ego is universal and they are fanatics in all religions and in Atheism too.

    I

  • 239. SnugglyBuffalo  |  October 9, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    George, if you’re just going to start preaching, kindly GTFO. We’ve heard it all before. You are trying to “shock us into understanding” using tripe we’ve already considered and rejected.

    If you’re going to stick around, it would behoove you to actually look through the archives and read some of the articles on why we apostatize and address those, rather than regurgitating the canned nonsense you get from church.

  • 240. George  |  October 9, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    Motoman, the name of this site is De Conversion.

    I have read hundreds of comments on this site. There is a complete denial of the truth of the gospel.

    This is not about Ego, as Shadow Tree want to term it.

    When you believe there is one way, and you have it, sure, it can seem egotistical.

    The truth of the matter is far different. The believer knows his true position, saved by the grace of God.

    We could get into election and all the other doctrines, that is for a far different site than this.

    The true Christian attitude ? ? ? Shadow does not know the Bible. Read the Book of Acts, Peter’s sermon. Read the short book of Jude. Some save by love, some by fear.

    It will be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. People in this site, who are so sure this God does not exist is the height of foolishness. It must be stated as such.

    They cannot get past Israel and the events coming to earth in the near future, and are now being rolled out before the nations of the world. The sides have been chosen. All the nations of the world have come against God and the nation of Israel.

    Jesus said it this way, “Do not fear man that can kill the body, fear the one who can kill the body, and cast the sour into Hell.”

    These words were not recorded for no reason. You need to be warned De Conversion people.

    God is Love, love chases you, the houd of heaven.

    Repent, and return to your first love. As the father in the prodical son, God pictures himself as that dad. Come home, just come home. There will be a party, for who was lost has now been found.

    Call it what you will, I call it concern and reality.

  • 241. George  |  October 9, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    Hey Snuggly,

    Yes, you have heard it all before. It is far from nonsense, as you will discover. This may happen at your death. I trust not.

    Why should Satan win? I know you believe that to be ignorance, but you will, again, discover differently.

    There are different levels of atheists in de conversion, there is you, then Roy, and people in the middle. Some in this site will return to their faith.

    Don’t be fooled.

  • 242. Shadow Tree  |  October 9, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    George:

    I can understand you but not anyone can think alike. In any moment i haven’t tell if i know the bible perfectly or anything of that. Here we are trying to have a conversation with respect and understanding to each other point of view.
    Just like i have told before, everyday i need to learn more and that is for everyone. God (the maker of all) is all love and do not judge us as the human being tends to do. This days this subject in the Atheist and Theist is very strong especially on the internet. We must keep the conversation like it is and respect each other point of views.

  • 243. LeoPardus  |  October 9, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    Motoman:

    wouldn’t it make sense to allow some commentary from the opposing viewpoint, as long as the comments are respectful?

    No problem with that. The problem is that Roy, George and some others (some of whom I suspect of being sock puppets) are posting the overwhelming majority of the posts here, and those posts are miles long too. That’s not “some commentary” nor is it remotely “respectful”. That’s really an attempt to take over. It’s troll behavior. I, and others, want it to stop.

    If George and Roy could limit themselves AND be respectful, they could provide some value. As it is, they are both detrimental.

  • 244. Roy  |  October 9, 2009 at 1:56 pm

    Leo:

    This is NOT a site for theists to discuss and debate their beliefs with theists. There are scads of sites for that. GO FIND ONE!

    With all due respect to you sir, I am not a theist, I am an a-theist. I have found more than one theist site. I am a de-convert. Am I not as welcome here as any other de-convert?

    The problem is that Roy, George and some others (some of whom I suspect of being sock puppets) are posting the overwhelming majority of the posts here, and those posts are miles long too.

    I was asked on another thread by Quester to make fewer posts of greater length rather than more posts of lesser length. I am try to comply with that request.

    If George and Roy could limit themselves AND be respectful, they could provide some value. As it is, they are both detrimental.

    That is my intention. I admit responsibility for the detriment I have caused.

    I think I have answere all comment pertaining to me in one post, albeit somewhat lengthy. If I have missed yours, please let me know.

    George:

    No so. The Bible takes a firm stant against homosexuality, but there are main stream churches who now disagree with the Bible. Why is that?

    The Jesus protrayed in my Bible did not utter one word about homosexuality.

    There are main stream protestant denominations that say the virgin birth was not necessary. Why is that?

    Because maybe it isn’t important for *them*.

    You can have your god, or gods. Have all your 10 to 10,000,000 reasons your god does this or that, so what?

    Indeed. I will echo your question. So what?

    Believe what? That the purpose of him coming was to finalize the sin offering. Period. It is why he stated, “It is Finished.” What was finished???

    There are multiple answers to your questions.

    There Roy, there is your answer to your post.

    No, that is *your* answer to my comment. I have respectfully attempted to reply to your comment. Believe it or not, you are helping me.

    ShadowTree:

    Motoman:

    You are a good example of the true Christian attitude. It is very unfair that true Christians get stereotyped by the actions of religious fanatics or the ones who try to pretend to be. Ego is universal and they are fanatics in all religions and in Atheism too.

    I agree with your assessment of Motoman. In fact, I will join him in his exodus, if that is the will of other participants here.

  • 245. Motoman  |  October 9, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    Leo,
    I appreciate your response. I’ve tried to keep my commentary as concise as possible. I know I said I would not post here again but I feel the need to post one more time to speak to George.

    George,
    There is an expression….

    “Let go and let God”

    I understand what you are doing but you’re not accomplishing anything but pushing people away. If you read some of their stories you will realize that your way of expressing yourself is one of the reasons they have turned away from religion. If you love your fellow man, and are not merely interested in winning an argument you will step back and offer up our brothers and sisters in prayer. God understands the subtleties of each human heart and what will speak to them. You cannot perform surgery with a sledge hammer.

    Thanks……Motoman.

  • 246. Mystery Porcupine  |  October 9, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Roy, I enjoy your posts and hope you will stick around. It would probably help if you would just respond to what the bloggers have to say, interact when a bunch of people are commenting, and limit discussions with fundamentalists when everyone else bails. That would help us keep to the goal of this site. You can always take the extensive discussions about the Bible and Christianity to e-mail.

  • 247. Joe  |  October 9, 2009 at 7:52 pm

    “The preaching of the cross is FOOLISHNESS to those who are parishing.” (#234)

    This is a bit different doctrine than I have heard before. So people who move from one parish to another are fools? Can you clarify?

  • 248. Mystery Porcupine  |  October 9, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    Motoman – As one of the people who has been pushed away, I would like to add an AMEN to post 244. I don’t think you should stop posting here. Give post 245 a read and see what you think about it. :)

  • 249. Quester  |  October 9, 2009 at 8:21 pm

    Roy,

    Thanks for making fewer, longer posts, as I’d asked. I recognize I’m not always fast at commenting when someone follows a request of mine as I am in making the request, but I do appreciate it.

  • 250. Shadow Tree  |  October 9, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    Roy:

    Thank You for your understanding. You and Motoman are doing what i always like to see. No matter what we do not have the same belief, we can talk peacefully and make a better world no matter we are not in the same point of view.

    George:
    Once again i recognized your efforts and one thing is that i am not with religion but if there is something i have never leave it is my faith in God.

    To be honest this is the best forum i have seen when it comes to this subject since in youtube it always get out of control and honestly i don’t like that.

  • 251. Roy  |  October 9, 2009 at 9:56 pm

    Thanks all for your helpful comments. I’m learning. I hope my “occasional” irreverence doesn’t offend. If it ever does, please say so.

    Motoman, I wholeheartedly concur with Porcupine. I would like to see you continue to post.

  • 252. George  |  October 10, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Motoman, Roy, Mystery, Shadow

    Motoman, to my Christian Brother, you wrote to me the following:

    George,
    There is an expression….

    “Let go and let God”

    I understand what you are doing but you’re not accomplishing anything but pushing people away. If you read some of their stories you will realize that your way of expressing yourself is one of the reasons they have turned away from religion. If you love your fellow man, and are not merely interested in winning an argument you will step back and offer up our brothers and sisters in prayer. God understands the subtleties of each human heart and what will speak to them. You cannot perform surgery with a sledge hammer.

    Thanks……Motoman.

    Pushing them away, as though they are trying to come back? Are you sure you understand what is going on here. I do not think so, but I know your heart is in the right place, but there is more to it than soft words.

    It is a site for the apostate mind to spew out the words of disbelief in the God of Creatoin, the God who came to destroy the works of Satan, as Jesus Christ atested to.

    It is a site that truely only welcomes de-conversion seekers, wanting to rid their mind of this fairy tale, known as the Bible.

    Or, deluting what the Bible states regarding sin. Take for instance Roy, who stated Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. Well, yes he did, plenty. Old and New Testament. He claimed to be the writer of Scripture. Read Luke, Romans 1, Deut, Think about it.

  • 253. Roy  |  October 10, 2009 at 6:50 pm

    Sorry guys but I can’t let this one slide by. George, some of my best friends are homosexual. I love them like they were my own family and I would appreciate it if you would treat them and others with some respect.

  • 254. George  |  October 10, 2009 at 8:56 pm

    Roy, I spent a great evening with one of my clients and his husband just the other night. I can say honestly that both my wife and I love them, and care deeply for them. That is the truth before God. Or very personal, on my daughters grave.

    I do not have to agree with their lifestyle to be their friend, and to care about them.

    So, sorry to tell you, I am not homophobic. I would love my son or daughter if they chose a life style contrary to what the Bible states is acceptable to God and his plan for man.

    Roy, I agree with you to this point, they desere respect, but not to be condoned because you love them. “It is better to serve God than man,” the Bible says.

    I agree.

  • 255. George  |  October 10, 2009 at 9:00 pm

    Roy, buy the way, we were invited to their home, it was not a casual dinner out.

    The point is this, sin is sin. Adultry, fronication, lying, homosexuality, coveting, murder, you know the list.

    Why do you not come to full faith, Roy?

  • 256. George  |  October 10, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    Faith that recognizes Jesus Christ as the only way to God.

    His work of the cross to save you, your daughter, I believe you said she is eight years old. Your family is at stake, as far as the gospel is concerned.
    Come on Roy, get back to where truth is found.

  • 257. George  |  October 10, 2009 at 9:02 pm

    Hope Quest is not lerking around somewhere…….busts me.

  • 258. Roy  |  October 10, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    You got the last word, George. Now please be quiet or go away.

  • 259. yelo  |  October 10, 2009 at 11:37 pm

    “It is better to serve God than man” – not only Bible says that, also Ahmadinejad, mollahs and ayatollahs in Shiia Iran. They are happy to run down and exterminate anything and anybody that stand in the way of “Allah’s will”. Except that Allah’s will seems to be differen’t from christian God’s will.

    George, you can keep rambling on how righteous you are, for your own sake. I am done with ANY religion. I am only happy to see people around who are brave enough to shed superstitions, delusion, fairy tales and other type of “holy” bullsheet.

  • 260. George  |  October 11, 2009 at 11:29 am

    Where are you leading your family to , Roy?

  • 261. Mel  |  October 11, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    Yelo,

    I think George has this correct. There is a much more happening in the world today that gives credence to the reality of a religion being the answer.

    Islam is not the way. A religion of murders, hatred and lies from the beginning.

    Jews have an enemy who want to destroy them, Islam.
    why?

    You are delusional if you do not see the role of Israel as who they are, the time clock for end times. You will just have to wait, be taken by your ignorance of believing that the Bible is holy bullseet.

  • 262. Joshua  |  October 11, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    Jews have an enemy who want to destroy them, Islam.
    why?

    Because they don’t like them.

  • 263. Mystery Porcupine  |  October 11, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    The Jews and Palestinians are fighting over land and culture (which includes religion, tradition, language, heritage, etc.), just like millions have done before them and will continue to do.

    If you look at any point in history, you will find countries and cultures that dislike each other and fight each other. The biggest reason for this? LIMITED RESOURCES – including limited land and wealth. Most hatred comes down to people wanting power over limited resources and people choosing to wield that power to get more land and resources. Conquering another group of people can provide new wealth, a new tax base, a new group of “second class citizens” to rule over, and more power that will lead to more conquering, more wealth, etc, etc etc…

    The more a group of people associates their identity with a particular area of land, the more they are willing to kill and hate in order to keep that land. The more people who have died in order to keep the land, the more anger and bitterness that develops. The more resources that are on or under that land (hello oil), the more people are willing to die for it…to feed their families, to keep their culture alive, etc.

    The country-to-country dynamics today are simply about who gets the power and resources. Those countries with the most history between them have often built up the most anger and hatred toward each other, and they simply refuse to share or compromise…hence, entire peoples can be destroyed. It is easy to stand on the outside of such a war and call one or both sides “evil.” The lines probably aren’t so clear when you’re in an embittered culture that has suffered and just wants to “win.” Realistically, it’s often only the power-hungry and corrupt government that seeks war even when the people don’t want it.

    Power and resources can be used corruptly, equitably or even altruistically. So it is natural to seek power and resources. But if you harm others in doing so, then you are not acting ethically. The larger the group or government is that seeks power, the more damage they can do. This is why I am a libertarian – because I think that governments tend to get power unethically and wield it unethically on a massively destructive scale. I’d rather deal with individuals. But I digress. There’s nothing supernatural about people wanting riches and power. That’s about as natural as it gets.

  • 264. Roy  |  October 11, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Procupine, I am a libertarian too, actually an anarch-capitalist to be precise. You and I are obviously on the same wavelength.

  • 265. yelo  |  October 11, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    Mel, I was a Christian. I have read a lot about various religions, many of which talk about the “end of times” or Armageddon – be it in 2012 or in 4 billion years. I am not an expert, but neither am I totally ignorant about the religious paths. I remember myself as a catholic: how OBVIOUS it was to me that my religion was the correct way. This is what a delusion is. I have no intention of getting into details why I eventually chose the agnostic path with some Budhist sentimentalism. Not because it is a secret, but because of lack of space in this forum.

    I want to stress that all the ramblings of religious fans coming here and trying to show that we are idiots, that we will be punished, that we ought to feel guilty (Mel, you have tried this, too) – fall on deaf ears. All you achieve is a still firmer stand against religious faith or belief. Now you can be happy that you have done a good deed of preaching and defending the Bible. But remember, you have done it for yourself or your “God”. With no effect whatsoever.

    Mystery Porcupine, I agree with your analysis of power and resources. One might say that religion has usually been only an excuse, not the real cause of conflicts. Yet, isn’t it mind-numbing how much wealth the Catholic Church, the “Holy Sea”, has amassed in its history? A trip to Vatican City, real or virtual, can be an eye-opener. Isn’t religion also a way of wielding power?

  • 266. Anonymous  |  October 29, 2009 at 9:03 pm

    I agree with neece!

  • 267. Epicurienne  |  October 30, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Point by point smackdown!

    85. Aisosa

    “DARLING THATS CRAP>>> if human beings can clone flies and travel to space, im quite sure we can control our drive for sex…don’t speak for teenagers who know way better than anyone else why exactly they remain virgins..and are not compelled by your ‘free thinking’ to lose all morals and act like animals.”

    (and 175. Seeker said something similar)

    My answer:
    It’s called BIRTH CONTROL….use it, and you can have sex without being stuck with a kid. Look into it.

    85. Aisosa:
    “OH AND BY THE WAY, be fruitful and multiply, was given to the first man and woman on earth..please note they were married..and except every time you have sex, it’s with the view of having children..then this is not a valid point.”

    My answer:
    If the first man and first woman on earth were “married” – who performed the marriage ceremony?

    147. kingoyaks

    “My view …. is that Sex is for Procreation. It is fun, so we would procreate. Evolutionarily speaking, if Doing It was fun, we would Do It more, and thus more of us would be born…. That said, it is for creating life. If you are prepared to support a child (have a job, a wife/life partner/husband, a home, etc), have sex! Create new life, and teach someone about the world! If you aren’t… Don’t…..

    You shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term? THEN YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE HAD FRIGGIN’ SEX! You can’t complete the process designed to make a baby and then say, ‘But I didn’t want a baby!'”

    My answer:
    Kingoyaks, I use birth control. By doing so, I am explicitly stating that I DO NOT WANT KIDS. If an embryo somehow manages to sneak past my birth control, I would consider that breaking and entering.

    Here’s an example: suppose you own a house, and you lock the doors and windows and have an alarm system. But a very smart or lucky burglar manages to break in anyway. Now suppose you call the cops, and they tell you you have to let the burglar live in your house, rent-free, eat up all your food, use your electricity, etc., without doing one single thing to repay you. Suppose also that the burglar makes horrible noises, smells bad, and you’re not allowed to leave it by itself.

    That’s how I would feel if, HAVING USED BIRTH CONTROL, I got pregnant and was forced to stay pregnant.

  • 268. Nathaniel  |  November 18, 2009 at 5:17 am

    I find the rules and particulars of morality less interesting than the reasons we make our moral choices.

    I can sum it all up rather easily with this moral scenario:
    Situation 1: You are told the specific time and place a child will ride his bike into the street and be hit by a bus. With this information, you prevent him from driving into the street and save his life. Was what you did a moral deed?

    Situation 2: You are told the same as before plus you are told that if you save this child, you will be given one million dollars. You save the child. Was This more or less moral than the previous scenario?

    Situations 3: You are told the same as before plus not only will you get one million for saving the child, but if you do not save the child, you will be shot in the genitals with a shotgun. You decide to save the child. Was this more or less moral than the previous two scenarios?

    Without fail, everyone agrees that the person who does the right thing because it is right, is the best person. When you introduce rewards and punishments, you cheapen the act of kindness. All three scenarios resulted in the child’s life being saved, but only the first seemed like it was done for the right reason.

    We make our moral choices based on what we value. In the first situation, we save the child because we value life. In the second we can’t tell if the person values life or the money. In the third, we can’t tell if the person values life, money or their genitals.

    When it comes right down to it, this argument applies equally well to the idea of heaven and hell, a fundamental tenant of Christianity. I would posit that any moral system that is based off of reward and punishment is actually an immoral system. When put this way, most Christians agree.

  • 269. Roy  |  November 19, 2009 at 1:18 pm

    Nathaniel #268,

    Yes I agree with you and it doesn’t matter how you put it. That’s why I don’t believe in a litteral “heaven” and “hell” anymore. I believe in the kingdom, right here, right now.

    BTW, the three scenarios you describe are obviously hypothetical and nonsensical because nobody can know what is going to happen to this child before it actually happens. Likewise, we cannot know what will happen, if anything, after our death. Consciousness as we know it ceases at that point.

  • 270. simplyabsurd  |  December 23, 2009 at 3:07 am

    I agree with this post to an extent. Although, as an atheist myself, I wouldn’t want to have my views confused with yours. There are a few points we differ significantly.

  • 271. ShelbyLC  |  March 16, 2010 at 1:28 am

    Not to comment on something that seems to be a bit dead (like your faith) but I have a few responses to what you’ve claimed.

    1. No god tells me to hate gay people, so I have no reason to hate them. In fact I think if gay people love each other and want to get married, more power to them. Why should we stop love and caring based on gender? I encourage loving and caring any way it manifests itself.

    I am a Christian, a Catholic at that, and I can rightfully say that God tells no one to hate. He makes it very clear that being gay is a sin, but that we should love these people anyways. All sin is the same in God’s eyes.
    Bible verse: James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.”
    Meaning: We all sin, because we’re human – whether it’s being gay or killing people or cursing, it’s all the same to God.

    2. No god tells me that women are inferior and should subject themselves to men. So I’m equal to a man. Except getting spiders out of the house. He can be superior to me in that department. Oh, and opening jars. He can have that one too.

    Women, although in the Old Testament were not equal to men, in the New Testament do become just as important as their male counterparts.
    Bible verse: Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
    Meaning: Paul, a follower of Jesus, sends letters from prison praising both a male apostle (Andronicus) and a female apostle (Junias). He does NOT place one above the other, but rather places them both on the same level and refers to them in the same way.
    It seems to me that you’ve spent a little too much time focusing on the Old Testament, most of which is Hebrew Law, which is not applicable to Christians anymore (Jesus proclaims this to Peter).

    3. No god tells me to pray instead of seeking medical attention. I believe in all kinds of scientific research and medicine. I even believe in stem cell research. I also think a woman has a right to choose what to do with her body. This probably goes up under the ‘women are equal’ entry as well, because I think it’s ridiculous that an old man I will never meet gets to decide what I can and can’t do with my body. Oh, and euthanasia should be considered an option, although it would have to be properly done so that no one gets murdered. But come on, if life is so freaking precious, why make some sick and dying person go through agony and humiliation and endure countless medical procedures just to stay alive? That’s insane.

    Jesus heals the sick. Nowhere in the Bible does God or Christ denounce medical attention. They simply advise to be prayed for also, as God is infintely more mighty than any of us can imagine.
    Keep in mind that Jesus was able to heal all of these sickly people so easily because He was God, God’s son, and sinless. He was not an ordinary man.

    4. No god tells me to hate people who believe in the same god but in a “wrong” way. Ok, that’s just stupid. At thanksgiving dinner my cousin was harassed by the fundamentalist methodists there because she went to 3 different bible camps from 3 different churches. She said, it’s all the same god, why does it bother you so much? I had to agree with her. They’re so hateful and ignorant.

    Alrighty… God does not advise us to hate anyone. I have NO idea where you got this idea? In fact, he tells us to love one another and to spread His word in order to save as many people as we can.
    Bible verse: 2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you.
    Meaning: jesus spread the word of God, the apostles (who were Jewish) spread the word of God to others, and no hate was involved. End of story. Hate = not God’s thing. Leave that for Satan.

    5. No god tells me to be fruitful and multiply, then says that sex for fun is bad, then tells me that only sex between married people is ok, then denies me any kind of way to turn off my insatiable teenage sex drive except to come up with abstinence and praying as a lame solution. Which means that I am all for teaching teenagers and anyone who might think of sex how to be safe and protected. Nothing is more dangerous than ignorance. Proper education and access to prophylactics are real ways to reduce teen pregnancy and the spread of STD’s. Also, as noted above, I also believe that mistakes happen, and so do horrible crimes against women. The morning after pill should be available to girls and women who need them to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term. Oh, and back to the ‘be fruitful and multiply thing’. I didn’t even have to have kids in the first place because I’m strong enough in myself that I don’t need some namesake to carry on for me or continue to overpopulate the planet simply because a god said I had to, thousands of years ago. Or worse, I am not starving in some third world country, having babies one after the other for my whole short life because the christians forced their god on me long ago and imposed their ridiculous rules and told us stupid lies.

    Wow, okay, looks like you’ve got some built up frustration here. Explanation? – We live in a broken world, we are sinful people. That’s the WHOLE reason Jesus was sent here — to die for our sins, give us a chance to be saved. Sexual immorality is a big thing. We, in this very broken world, are tempted and tempted and tempted. That’s why we are advised to look to God and ask him for help. You keep saying that prayer is worhtless. And you know what? — If you aren’t meaning what you say, and if you’ve denied God all your life, then it means nothing. Christianity was never meant to be a faith, it was meant to be a way of life.
    Bible Verse: Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander
    Meaning: notice that sexual immorality and false testimony come hand in hand here. You cannot expect to live without sin if you don’t even acknowledge He who exists completely seperate from sin.

    6. No god tells me to hate people who look different than me, so I am free to see everyone as equal and the same, just with different packaging. No need to be racist. (Oh, yeah, Hitler was religious. So don’t even bother with that one, christians. He’s yours, not ours.)

    Hitler “believed” but didn’t live out that lifestlye. Again, Christianity is a way of life, not a faith. And once more — the people in the Old Testament were from Egypt, the Middle East, Jerusalem… So who exactly are we racist towards? God loves everyone, we know that… It’s just a matter of whether everyone decides to love him back. Oh yeah, and with the whole hating thing — I’ve already made my point that God wants us to love everyone.
    Bible verse: Luke 6:27 “But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.”
    Meaning: Love everyone, no matter the situation or their religion or their (lack of) love towards you. Simply, love one another.

    7. No god tells me to start a war over another land having the wrong god or the wrong types of people (see the one above), so I don’t have to support pointless wars that justify some ridiculous ancient prophecy or for other silly reasons, like god talking directly to the leader of my country. (Don’t even get me started on how scary that is. At least he’s gone now!)

    It’s too bad your presidents are all Methodist or Protestant, and ya know, God does have a relationship with them… awkward silence much? But really — God doesn’t tell us to make war. In fact, he built this earth hoping it would be a heaven, an Eden (meaning = paradise), and we screwed it up. We, as humans, sinned.
    Bible verse: Job 4:8 “…those who plant trouble and cultivate evil will harvest the same.”
    Meaning: We planted that first sin and now we are simply reaping what we sow — War is a product of sin. God cannot keep us from sin, and in a world full of sinners and people who don’t even know God, war is inevitable. He makes due, though.

    Another Bible verse: Deut. 9:4 “After the Lord your God has done this for you, don’t say to yourselves, ‘The Lord has given us this land because we are so righteous!’ No, it is because of the wickedness of the other nations that he is doing it.”
    Meaning: God usses this inevitable war to try and remove wickedness from earth. Turning more poeple towards Him, towards eternal glory and joy and peace will diminish war. Thanks be to God.

    8. No god makes promises to me about being a martyr, so I have no reason to strap a bomb to myself and blow up a train station or whatever kills the most innocent people.

    Um? You devote yourself to God in order to live an eternal life with Him, not die. So, you can forget your whole bomb thing…?
    Bible verse: Acts 13:52 “And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit”
    Meaning: As Christians, we accept that we all sin, every day, and that this earth is broken. We want to better it while we are here, and glorify the God of this earth while we can, but it will never bring us true joy because it is so sinful. By emptying us of ourselves, of that sinful nature, we are allowing that God, his son Christ, and his presence the Holy Spirit fill us, and we become eternally a part of their greatness.

    9. No god makes open-ended promises that will never come true about armageddon and going up to heaven soon, so I am responsible about the environment, and try my best to have a small impact on the planet, and also support research into making things better for everyone through science and smarter living.

    This earth is broken, and everyone who turns away from God, denies their Maker, denounces He who has given them the opportunity to live a life spent glorifying Him, a sinless being, will eternally reep what they’ve sown. THose who have lived their lives (whether doing good or evil) but have only done it for themselves will spend eternity with Satan, the angel who tried to be his own god (like non-christians) and failed (of course) — and this can only be done when this earth is finally gone. God will not allow that such a sinful place exist for his people.
    Bible verses: — read the book of Revelations, and read it as truth.
    Meaning: exactly what I just told you.

    10. No god promises eternal life to me, so I understand that this life is precious. I take personal responsibility seriously, and I live my life the best way I can because it’s the only one I’ve got. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason.

    Living a life full of good deeds is wonderful, and I applaud you for that. However, what makes Christians morally stronger, is that we (try) to do the same thing, but do it unselfishly. You do good deeds and take credit for it — by your own doing and by your own internal strength, you spread happiness, and then take ALL the credit. Christians recognize that God gives us the strength and the will and the want to spread good, spread Him, spread Joy, and, most importantly, spread the chance for eternal joy in Heaven with Him. We have rid us of oursleves. And we are Christians (meaning — little Christs).

    My advice to you? — Read the Bible, seriously. All those traditions you make fun of Christians for are inapplicable because when Jesus appeard on earth again, the 7 foot curtain was torn from top to bottom, and freed us from the traditions to which we were once tied.

    God has given you an opportunity to believe. And I know you want to, because I can sense how angry you are that your former prayers haven’t worked. Stop denouncing God, because you are ridding yourself of his grace by doing so, and your relationship with Him will better, and your prayers will be taken more seriously.

    When you can finally say to yourself in your heart that you love God and you are thankful that His son died so that we can spend eternity with Him, God will rejoice — because of you!

    I’m praying for you.

  • 272. BigHouse  |  March 16, 2010 at 9:45 am

    Shelby, are you sure you are Catholic? ;-)

  • 273. CheezChoc  |  March 16, 2010 at 2:02 pm

    What does it mean to have one’s prayers taken more seriously? Someone who prays must believe in what they are praying for or the being to whom they are praying.
    Does “taken seriously” mean the same thing as answered or fulfilled?

  • 274. Sune Marker  |  March 21, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    While I agree with most of what you have written, I don’t really find your arguments valid. You have stated your personal opinions about several matters, and then claimed this as a moral victory for atheism against religion. But this is false. While most of the bad things you talk about, is in many (if not most) cases directly cuased by religion, atheism does not in any way dictate that a person think differetnly about a given subject.
    I will use your first argument as an example. Here you state that because no god tells you to hate gays, you don’t, and that makes atheists morally superior to religious people. But since atheism is only about not believing in a supreme being, homophobia or the lack of it, has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is perfectly possible to be an atheist and still hate gays. It will not be for religious reasons, but does that really matter? As i see it, if you hate gays just because they’re gay, it doesn’t matter what you base this opinion on. You’re still immoral.

  • 275. DSimon  |  March 22, 2010 at 4:02 pm

    Sune Marker, that’s a good point, but on the other hand: what other type of justification do bigots ever use for hating gays other than religious ones? I mean, there are probably a few atheists bigoted against gays out there somewhere… but I have no idea how they’d sell that to themselves, or explain it to anyone else.

  • 276. Joe  |  March 22, 2010 at 6:58 pm

    DSimon—-

    I think you’d be surprised if you read about dictatorial atheistic regimes. Many of them do not tolerate gays, or anyone else for that matter that do not fit the state’s requirement of a “person”.

    Rather than “morals” being those of any religious creed, they are the morals the leader dictates. In many cases that can much worse, as annihilating those who “don’t fit” becomes much easier as the state itself, and it’s leader has become God.

  • 277. Travis  |  March 22, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    1. Where does God tell us to hate gays in the bible never read that verse before? As for a man should not lay with a man as with a women i doubt this have anything to do with God hating anyone but has more to deal with culture.

    2. if you go back to very own culture times women were not seen as to much of value this haves to deal with culture not God saying they have no value and Infact if yo read The old testament God had set certain rules for women for theire protection because he knew of times were in cetain ages of the world.

    3. i do not know of any verses that say do not take medical treatment and if God was infact so against this, then we would most likely see evidence in the work of Luke due to he was a doctor and help people.

    4. I do not know of any verses that tell people to hate others if they do not see God in the same way as others.

    5. it seems you support abortion having sex for fun and do not need to be committed to anyone I really do not see how this is moral at all.

    6. I’m not aware of any biblical verses showing to hate others because they look different.

    7. Most athiest are ignorant of why God brought war to other nations for example The Amalekite nation which killed there own child and people in offersing to their God and done things to babies that people would deem not mortal athiest or not. God wipe them out for all the evil he saw in that nation.

    8. point 8 has nothing to do with the bible or even in all Christianity history. we do not come a martyr to kill people we come a martr because others kills us for our beliefs.

    9. what empty promises? and it depends what you mean by soon time is not the same for God as it is for God. 1000 years might seem like a long time for us but that snap for God.

    10. God offers everlasting Life nothing Immortal about that unless you want to believe God was lieing and that your choice.

    in The end its not the bible you pick part many points you made can not be back up with scripture for your case but you had expose that some in any religion no matter what one can hate.

    just because a person may hate or a racist and they claim to be a christian does not mean that Historic Christianity teaches any such thing.

  • 278. Travis  |  March 22, 2010 at 8:29 pm

    like to fix my statement of about gays indeed culture plays a apart but it also command from God of something not to do and it does not deal with God hating gays.

  • 279. DSimon  |  March 23, 2010 at 12:36 pm

    Joe, good point. Perhaps it’s better to expand my definition from “atheist” to “rationalist atheist”, someone who doesn’t buy into dogma whether it is religious or non-religious. Even without having to restrict the selection to humanists, I think that would still exclude nearly everyone who is bigoted against gay people, because nobody I’ve seen has ever given a self-consistent non-dogmatic reason for that bigotry.

  • 280. DSimon  |  March 23, 2010 at 12:52 pm

    Travis, let me respond to a few points (it would take me all day to respond to all of them):

    1. So you’re saying that the Bible doesn’t say to hate gay people, just to throw rocks at them until they die if they ever have sex. You’ll excuse me if I don’t see much of a distinction there.

    2. 1 Corinthians 11:9 – “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” In other words, women are to serve men but not vice versa, according to the Bible.

    5. Why is having sex for fun immoral?

    7. If there are bad people in a country doing bad things, that justifies destroying the entire country and everyone in it? Even innocent people? Even children? God is supposed to be omnipotent; killing only the bad people would’ve been quite possible.

    10. The point is that an everlasting afterlife is a good motivation to not care about what happens in the life we have now.

  • 281. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    So you’re saying that the Bible doesn’t say to hate gay people, just to throw rocks at them until they die if they ever have sex. You’ll excuse me if I don’t see much of a distinction there.

    First thing you need to get a understanding of Torah laws it brought death many of it commands if broken brought death or exile if borken so the law that forbids the same sex laying with each other is not the only law that haves a death penalty or exile

    it deals not deal with hate i would ask you to read paul letters about the law or even email the very same question to scholars on the old testament.

    if The gay law was the only thing that broguht death or exile then you may have a point.

    2. 1 Corinthians 11:9 – “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” In other words, women are to serve men but not vice versa, according to the Bible.

    if you read other scriptures men are also to love their wives treat them like Christ love his Church etc…. men are to also to not blind eye to what women also haves to say if she may disagree.

    if you read the scriptures husband and wives are to work together.

    3. where is The commneted

  • 282. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 3:22 pm

    3. where is the bound between the person? marriage is what brings the bound. sex out of marriage is like a get out of jail free called because you can go out and have sex with anyone without having to be commited to them.

    7. If there are bad people in a country doing bad things, that justifies destroying the entire country and everyone in it? Even innocent people? Even children? God is supposed to be omnipotent; killing only the bad people would’ve been quite possible.

    One thing you need to understand The nation always repeat what they had done over and over again it called sins of the fore fathers. Every generation is brought up into these rituals for more information check out this site

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

    10. I do not share your view every thing that we do now does care if there is everlasting life.

  • 283. BigHouse  |  March 23, 2010 at 3:47 pm

    Travis, your rebuttals are staggeringly difficult to comprehend from both grammattical and moral standpoints. I am in awe that you could write what you did regarding gay bigotry and destroying nations with sincerity. I feel very sorry for you.

  • 284. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:23 pm

    Big house I’m not sure if i can write in any more clear plain English as for gays etc… rules commands in Torah Please go get a basic understanding many laws in Torah call for death or exile for many laws just cherry picking one rule out of 613 does not prove a case. God must punish sin and that what the law brought when broken punishment and another thing the law was part of The covenant that was made. God does not hate his own people but holds high standers. I had my self talk to other jews and they told me it is unusually for someone not to be given a chance to repent of what they had done

    as for destroying nations I ask you read that site I posted it clear you did not.

    Some people just do not understand sins of the fathers is NOT children being punish for their parents sins But The children walking in The same path of their fathers.

    This is repeated done with many enemies of israel and also israel it self where also punish for their sins of their fathers if they walk in their father sins.

    Nothing to do with God hating or people hating but everything to do with a nation generation after generation attacking israel.

  • 285. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:30 pm

    also the book of Ezekiel tells us that God does not take deloght in the death of anyone but wants them to repent and live.

  • 286. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 8:31 pm

    delight srry

  • 287. BigHouse  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:00 pm

    Your God is wicked and evil if he condones and orders the death of people and entire nations for their sexual orientation and for sins of their forebears and neighbors respectively. It’s that simple. Use your brain and figure it out rather than blindly following a 2000 year book of mythology like a leming.

  • 288. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    1.death of nations? again your ranting shows you have no basic understanding that God destroyed nations that continues in their wicked ways.

    As for God hating others with sexual orientation please give me the verse for I can study on that compare it to the biblical context.

    as for destroying nations of their forebears again you have no basic understanding of what sins of the fathers mean. it does not mean to punish people for their parents sin it means to punish them for walking in the ways of their fathers.

    as for putting the bible as just a myth it not and maybe you should check out Bar which deals with defending the bible from historic view point.

  • 289. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    abr sorry bible and spade website.

  • 290. BigHouse  |  March 23, 2010 at 9:45 pm

    The irony of your deriding my lack of “basic understanding” is delicious, given you write like a pre-schooler.

    But please, spare me a trip to another website, and state your argument for why the Bible isn’t mythology here if you can. Here’s one condition: You can’t use the Bible as the authority upon which you rest your defense of it’s place as the Word of God.

  • 291. Travis  |  March 23, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    Bighouse it would take pages of pages to through biblical archeology which I do not have the time to go through ever single finding.

    the website I posted is good and i give a few examples of what I believe gives the bible credit.

    1. people use to believe Pontius Pilate was made up by the new testament until first piece was found in 1961 giving the first evidence that he exist.

    2. People use to say The town of Nazareth did not exist in Jesus time until homes for found that date to the time of jesus which the website I given you proves that.

    http://www.biblearchaeology.org/publications/bibleandspade.aspx

    3. People use and some still believe the NT was written many years after the apostles death but yet we have The name of jesus and quotes of the NT that can be dated as far back as 70-90ad. The Book of Barnabas dated as far back as 70ad. clement letters around 95-96 ad and this is when the NT was already around to be quoted from.

    4. People use to believe the earth was flat but the OT says it around and before you tell me the old testament writer Isaiah view a half of snow globe type earth know the Hebrewf or round in Isaiah is in the masculine form and that means literal round like sphere like for more information visit this site

    http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Isawa/flatearth.htm

    The thing is I can go on all night giving examples of biblical findings etc… but I stop here.

    I would also like to add to say the both believers and Hostile groups in the first century all acknowledge the empty tomb and
    The story that the apostles stole the body is over 2000 years old and at the time of Jesus death The apostles were all afraid they would be nailed next if you read the scriptures and I believe that most logical to hide, if they went to the wrong tomb I also sure the Jewish Authority would have no problem taking them to their dead Jesus.

    I would check out abr site they even deal with emails from atheists etc…… and they are more way more an authority on scripture and scripture History context then I’m.

  • 292. BigHouse  |  March 23, 2010 at 11:47 pm

    Even if I stipulate your archaeological evidence as true, how does that support the story of a God becoming a man and dying and raising from the dead. Extraordinary claims require extraoirdinary evidence.

    Where is the evidence for your supernatural ghost story?

  • 293. Travis  |  March 24, 2010 at 12:22 am

    Big house like I said believers and hostiles noted Jesus tomb was empty. The New testament has the apostles fearing for their life’s and going under lock and key for some time yet some try to say they stole the body, others try a grave robbing thing but doubt that sense they usually go after things with worth. if someone thinks maybe someone is trying to blackmail the family that burden of proof is on them for that one.

    Another thing is in the time jesus lived in reading Jesus remarks and what other people said about him.

    Jesus made throughout the bible that he is God and lord and his followers also said the same thing.

    Now the roman empire All acknowledge that their leader is a god and lord and for someone else to come in roman territory announcing himself God or lord that is to the roman mind to reject roman rule which I believe the roman Government did everything it could to also try to try to put a stop to jesus movement. Pilate did not want Jesus dead duo to there was no physical evidence he done anything wrong but that does not mean Jesus was not under the watchful eye of roman rule, and once Jesus was dead The roman government supported t he fact that Jesus tomb should be guard to what jesus said 3 days later I shall rise again. The roman rule must of thought in their mind if this movement got too big it could try to take over roman rule or at least try to.

    To me everything points me down that something super natural had happen and I may not be able to 100% prove it but the on looks on things seems to support it on my out look.

  • 294. Travis  |  March 24, 2010 at 12:31 am

    another thing the stone it self would be a challenge to move duo it usually taken a good group of strong men to move it and I bet if there was a crowed moving it, it would not go without someone acknowledging.

  • 295. Travis  |  March 24, 2010 at 12:32 am

    acknowledging

  • 296. BigHouse  |  March 24, 2010 at 9:20 am

    Travis, as I suspected, your “evidence” is the same as has been proffered by apologists throughout my whole life. It’s extremely weak and unconvincing.

    You’re welcome to believe what you wish. But this is an online community for those who are seeking the truth and are finding the Bible’s claims severely lacking on many fronts. Most of us were fervent Bible-spouting Christians for many years who read our Bibles, faithfully attended churches, and spewed the same apologetic memes.

    So before you go off trying to “educate” us, it’d be more polite to understand your audience first. So far, nothing you have written I haven’t already heard a hundred times. And I am ashamed I hadn’t opened up my brain just a little a long time ago to stop pre-supposing the God of the Bible exists and analyze the claims objectively.

    I wish you peace in your life but also wish that your unwelcome preaching here well cease.

  • 297. Dale701  |  March 24, 2010 at 10:56 am

    Leo…..
    You were my hero untill today.
    It is understood by anyone with common sense, that you cannot do anything but use a broad brush when making statements about groups.
    There is an exception to every rule, this does not mean that we should abandon rules.
    Do you believe Nazi’s hated Jews?
    They killed 6 million of them.
    I bet there were many that did not hate Jews.
    Christians are good.
    Many Christians are in prison.
    Nazi’s are bad.
    I bet many were good people, just like many Republicans, even though I do not agree with there politics.
    Atheists are evil.
    Fundamentalists love gays.

    When I see statements like this, I assume the writer is meaning the majority of those in that group.
    If 50.0000001% are in agreement, the statement is true.

    In time Christianity will probably not see being gay as a sin, but I will not hold my breath, I am 61.
    Oh, and just to qualify, I am talking about the majority of Christians, lest you be confused with my broad brush statement.

  • 298. Dale701  |  March 24, 2010 at 11:03 am

    I recant, someone said Catholics aren’t Christian.
    The term Christian should be qualified, everyone does not agree on who is a Christian and who is not.
    To use this term would require a book of qualifiers and then we would still not have agreement.
    I will be watching you Leo, to see if you use it.
    If you do, I will label you a broad Brusher.

  • 299. Quester  |  March 24, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Dale,

    So, Leo was your hero until you read a comment of his from last May warning someone that hatred poisons the person doing the hating, while not affecting the hated? And now you are “watching” someone who hasn’t posted in months, in order to keep him accountable?

    Are you that bored?

  • 300. Travis  |  March 24, 2010 at 4:33 pm

    Big house if you have any substantial evidence that would go against The resurrection I’m all ears but to me The weak arguments are on the body was stolen or grave robbing, or they went to the wrong tomb. These are the arguments atheist gave me all throughout my life but it each does not seem substantial enough for me.

    people had said jesus really never died on the cross but was revived by the cold air in the tomb.

    Another weak argument duo to First he would not have the strength to push the stone Another Most important fact The spear that went through Jesus cause blood and water and modern day medical science shows that there is a small pack of water around the heart and when the spear went through it, it also went through the heart.

    The Top thing that leads me to the resurrection is the roman mind set. if you were travel back in time claim to be God and Lord of All you bet your money the roman government would be watching you or do anything from letting such a group get too big. The evidence for this is all throughout the roman empire in the earliest stages of Christianity. Romans were the first one to rise against Christians and Nero blame the fire on Christians even duo much people believe Nero order the fire for his new grand building.

    I also heard animals might off eaten the body but I doubt they be eating a tomb stone that weighs anywhere from 1-2 tons.

    If this substantial evidence is not enouch to make the resurrection even plausible then I do not know what is.

    if this substantial evidence is not good enough then maybe we should just agree to disagree and go our ways but if you want to continue I’m all ears.

  • 301. BigHouse  |  March 24, 2010 at 11:15 pm

    Big house if you have any substantial evidence that would go against The resurrection I’m all ears”

    Sure, here it is: PEOPLE DON”T GET UP AFTER THEY DIE.

    You don’t believe that anyone else in history or in any other story has ever risen from the dead, do you? Why do you believe this book when it tells you that without any better evidence to support it?

    The burden of proof is on the party making the extraordniary claim and the Bible and your apologetics are weak in providing evidence for this astouding feat. Therefore, it’s not believable, plain and simple.

  • 302. Travis  |  March 24, 2010 at 11:46 pm

    : PEOPLE DON”T GET UP AFTER THEY DIE.

    if you do not believe in God that but that really not an argument against the resurrection.

    You don’t believe that anyone else in history or in any other story has ever risen from the dead, do you? Why do you believe this book when it tells you that without any better evidence to support it?

    The fact is both believers and hostiles both agree the tomb was empty and when you play the game of elimination The atheist arguments seem to be the weakest.

    Do I believe any others were raise from the dead in history? if both parties had some sort of agreement I would say its possible God can do anything.

    stole the body grave robbing Jesus never really died on the cross animals eating jesus etc…… really?

  • 303. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 12:27 am

    Travis, first you have to prove that Jesus actually existed and is not a first century Betty Crocker. Secondly, it was people who would have placed the stone, so people could remove it (if it ever occurred).
    And what is it with christians? They have this micro-managing maniac at their head who can do anything, yet they insist on doing what they assume is the wish of their god. Just lay back and let Mr.High & Mighty do all the work, especially judging. He is capable of that, no?
    For an ineffable being, he sure is having a lot of people reading his “mind”.

  • 304. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:12 am

    Cag here is link for you

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexisthub.html

    and this one

    http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

    Also Not this The roman historian Tacitus wrote in the second century How nero went after Christians in 64ad.

    64ad is still in the lifetime of people who saw jesus who witness Him also in the life time of the apostles.

    Another thing if Jesus really was not real I pretty sure there would be evidence that would pre-date 70ad because after the war Only about almost not 1 % roman documents survive.

    the fact is there was followers of Jesus even as the New testament was being written and christians being mention in 60’s ad is strong evidence he did exist.

  • 305. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:13 am

    cag as for the stone it would not be a 123 thing it its moved it would taken a great deal of men

  • 306. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:21 am

    I would like to make my point my clear

    Tacitus was consider to be one of the worlds finest roman Historians and he had access probably to documents we no longer have and if Jesus really never existed there would be evidence in his work to support he was not real.

  • 307. BigHouse  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:15 am

    Travis, if an empty tomb is all you need to believe wholeheartedly in a supernatural death-defeating being walking among mortals then it’s no surprise you are a Christian. Good luck in life.

    If you ever ACTUALLY want to critically examine your beliefs, feel free to drop back in.

  • 308. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 12:19 pm

    Travis, Jim Jones had more “disciples” than Jesus. Just having believers is not proof of truth.
    What is it with christians about the stone? It would have been put in place by humans, so could just as easily be removed by humans. Of course for the stone story to be anywhere near true, your Jesus would have had to exist, which is a tenuous position at best.
    Being mentioned about 30 years after his death proves nothing. Aesop’s Fables predate the Jesus fables – does that make Aesop historically true?
    Your URL’s are for Christian sites – “Apologetics Ministry” and “reasonable apologetics”. Not what many of us on this site would consider authorative.

  • 309. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:35 pm

    I think I might of confuse His birthday with the time he had written about the fire and therefore I have to take back that He mighted of had first hand
    account of roman Documents. it is possible he had second hand information from people who may of saw such documents.

    Some Think Tactius may of was just repeating information that Christians were saying but This does not good down good to the fact of the very anti-christian under tone and I do not know any christian that would speak bad about it own religion. Some might think it is fake but majority of scholars hold tactics document to be real not something Christians wrote in his name.

    tactius was a good Historian and he is knew to not accpet things at face value, his best friend was Pliny the Younger which he could gotten his information from him but again remember tactius does not simple accpet anything what people say, he did not even believe everything piiny the younger told Him.

    it is out of his character to accpet things that are repeating to him without doing what Historians do best re-serach, in The end I trust tactius but it up to you to believe isi t just christian heresay or something more.

    The link to him is this site

    http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

  • 310. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 1:37 pm

    bighouse like I said if you have anything better then his body was stolen or aniamls ate him or jesus really never died on the cross or grave robbing please give me more theories what what you think happen to the body.

  • 311. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 2:21 pm

    cag

    Travis, Jim Jones had more “disciples” than Jesus. Just having believers is not proof of truth.

    really jim jones had more then 2.2 billion followers? or is it 2.4-2.5 now I lost tract of the worlds people that chose to follow Jesus.

    let me ask you this question do you think Jim jones would get thousands of followers right away if he was not real or would it take time for him to get followers? why would people come his disciples in His lifetime if he did not exist?

    take this question and aim it at jesus why would he have thousands of followers in the very short time of his preaching in his lifetime if he was not real?

    What is it with christians about the stone? It would have been put in place by humans, so could just as easily be removed by humans. Of course for the stone story to be anywhere near true, your Jesus would have had to exist, which is a tenuous position at best.

    Your forgetting that it would take a group of men to move it and if you think they can do this somehow secret without The roman government knowledge I say not really possible duo The government after his death consider his movement a threat to roman rule.

    Being mentioned about 30 years after his death proves nothing. Aesop’s Fables predate the Jesus fables – does that make Aesop historically true?
    Your URL’s are for Christian sites – “Apologetics Ministry” and “reasonable apologetics”. Not what many of us on this site would consider authorative.

    depends if you trust tactics or not wiki says no one is his equal he is straight foreward Guy.

    The sources of Tacitus

    Tacitus used the official sources of the Roman state: the acta senatus (the minutes of the session of the Senate) and the acta diurna populi Romani (a collection of the acts of the government and news of the court and capital). He read collections of emperors’ speeches, such as Tiberius and Claudius. Generally, Tacitus was a scrupulous historian who paid careful attention to his historical works. The minor inaccuracies in the Annals may be due to Tacitus dying before finishing (and therefore proofreading) his work. He used a variety of historical and literary sources; he used them freely and he chose from sources of varied opinions.

    even wiki says he very careful man and I doubt tactius would of said something or repeating without re-searching it first.

    you read read about tactics here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactius#The_sources_of_Tacitus

    also note tactius i was wrong was born 56 ad not 64 but I;m not sure if he would even have first hand roman documents on him at age 11 before the war.

    here are some wiki sites that what scholars have to say about jesus being real who Do have an Authority.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus#Scholarly_methods

    You also have the biblical scholars and classical historians saying this about the Christ myth.

    The Christ myth theory is essentially without supporters in modern academic circles,[3] biblical scholars and classical historians being highly dismissive of it,[4] viewing it as pseudo-scholarship[5] and some comparing the theory’s methodological basis with that of flat-earthism,[6] Holocaust denial[7] and moon landing skepticism.[8]

    such strong words against Christ mythers

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Myth

  • 312. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 4:49 pm

    Travis, Jesus had, according to the myth, 12 disciples that followed him around. There were over 900 that followed Jones to Jonestown, Guyana. That is the real, live Jim Jones. Giving numbers of christians today is not a valid comparison, only a testament to gullibility.
    Following up on the URL’s, there are entries both for and against the actuality of Jesus. As there are 2 billion christians, the prevalence of confirmation bias would be very strong.
    If you had been born 2040 years ago, the odds of you being a polytheist are amazingly high. People living then were just as sure of their gods as you are of your god. There are thousands of gods that you do not believe in, gods that only exist in human imagination. What would make anyone believe that the god of a tribe of nomads in the near east would be any different than all the other gods?
    The main reason for the strength of religion is the sword. To keep from getting killed, people converted. To keep their children from getting killed, the parents lied to them. Children being trusting and naive bought the lies and passed them on to their children.
    What would your belief system look like if you had been born in India?
    Why is my life without prayer peaceful and prosperous? I have no worries about crossing any deity. Only when I encounter silly beliefs on the internet does religion even cross my mind, as in now. I never worry about breaking any biblical rules. I must admit that I hold no god in front of your god, as that could only happen if there were actual gods.
    There are no gods except in the imagination. Some of us are aware of that, others cower in front of their imaginary master. No amount of apologetics will alter the fact that there are no gods. If Jesus existed, he was no more than a David Koresh or Jim Jones.

  • 313. BigHouse  |  March 25, 2010 at 6:54 pm

    bighouse like I said if you have anything better then his body was stolen or aniamls ate him or jesus really never died on the cross or grave robbing please give me more theories what what you think happen to the body.

    You continue to miss my point entirely. I will try one last time…

    YOU claim that Jesus was resurrected and use the empty tomb as your support for that claim. Claims of people resurrecting from the dead require ENORMOUS amounts of STRONG evidence in order to induce belief. You, and all of the other apologists, fall way short of the threshold, ergo, I don’t believe Jesus resurrected from the dead.

    I don’t have any personal theory of what happened at the time Jesus allegedly resurrected from the dead. But that doesn’t make a goofy supernatural explanation any plausible.

    Add to that a vast number of POSSIBILITIES other than your resurrection theory (Jesus never existed, Jesus is mostly mythological, the entire resurrection account being made-up, any of the resurrection account being made-up or embellished, grave robbery, etc etc) and the resurrection theory is thusly not worthy of belief.

    YOU are the one making a claim and thusly YOU must provide the evidence and argument to support it. You have’t done so.

    I don’t KNOW what (if anything) lives on Mars but I do not believe that purple unicorns live there. That I don’t have a better idea of what lives on Mars has no bearing on whether the claims of the purple unicorn believers are worthy of belief and hold up to scrutiny. They do not.

    And neither do the claims of the resurrection.

  • 314. Joe  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Dr. Clyde P. Carsgrove PHD, Director of Interplanetary Biological Studies, Jet Propulsion Labs:

    “After much thorough study and examination of the rugged Martian surface, and also chemical analysis of the many igneous rock samples obtained there, it is our strong opinion that the surface of this planet was once inhabited by, and may be the continuing habitation of purple unicorns. We can come to no other conclusion.”

    April 2009

  • 315. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 7:49 pm

    Travis, Jesus had, according to the myth, 12 disciples that followed him around. There were over 900 that followed Jones to Jonestown, Guyana. That is the real, live Jim Jones. Giving numbers of christians today is not a valid comparison, only a testament to gullibility.

    Did Jim jones pick out these 900 and THEN start his mission or did these 900 come over time?

    Following up on the URL’s, there are entries both for and against the actuality of Jesus. As there are 2 billion christians, the prevalence of confirmation bias would be very strong.

    yeah and The majority of biblical scholars and classical support he was real.

    People who Think Christ is a myth need to re-write History of The earliest fathers to be fake or that there letters are forge when pretty much no evidence for that good grief!

    Another thing about Josephus he mention jesus and there is debate if christians change a certain part but the majority believe that he DID mention Jesus.

    Also Josephus says in his writings James The brother of Jesus that so called Christ was stone.

    there is almost no debate that this part is real.

    You still did not answer my question if it possible Jesus was not real then how did he get thousands of followers in the time he was suppose to live?

    I think people would be smart enough and say wait a minute I live during this so called jesus time and report he was not real but we do not see any support for this do we?.

    f you had been born 2040 years ago, the odds of you being a polytheist are amazingly high. People living then were just as sure of their gods as you are of your god. There are thousands of gods that you do not believe in, gods that only exist in human imagination. What would make anyone believe that the god of a tribe of nomads in the near east would be any different than all the other gods?
    The main reason for the strength of religion is the sword. To keep from getting killed, people converted. To keep their children from getting killed, the parents lied to them. Children being trusting and naive bought the lies and passed them on to their children.

    Last time I check i do not see any scholars going around and saying Zeus or Hercules Poseidon Athena etc… really walk the earth.

    In myth they walk the earth but we do not see any scholars supporting they are even a real person.

    What would your belief system look like if you had been born in India?
    Why is my life without prayer peaceful and prosperous? I have no worries about crossing any deity. Only when I encounter silly beliefs on the internet does religion even cross my mind, as in now. I never worry about breaking any biblical rules. I must admit that I hold no god in front of your god, as that could only happen if there were actual gods.
    There are no gods except in the imagination. Some of us are aware of that, others cower in front of their imaginary master. No amount of apologetics will alter the fact that there are no gods. If Jesus existed, he was no more than a David Koresh or Jim Jones.

    Christianity is high in India with Christians being killed or torture or fundamental Hindus killing or burning churches down. if i was born there Good chance I be expose to Christianty as much as I’m here in usa. Most of the church are from foreign nations.

    as for the rest I really do not need to answer because your clear no amount of defense i make your never believe God is possible.

  • 316. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:21 pm

    big house

    You continue to miss my point entirely. I will try one last time…

    YOU claim that Jesus was resurrected and use the empty tomb as your support for that claim. Claims of people resurrecting from the dead require ENORMOUS amounts of STRONG evidence in order to induce belief. You, and all of the other apologists, fall way short of the threshold, ergo, I don’t believe Jesus resurrected from the dead.

    I was watching some court show and they were on a case on about this person but they had nothing to connect him physical that is but they believe he was the one that did the crime and they said we only have substantial evidence.

    They started to suggest He was there at the work time and he was the last person seen leaving where this crime taken place etc…

    The count of law works this way at times and sometimes is not enough to make a verdict but it makes it very possible.

    The resurrection is Like that we can start to go through all arguments against jesus resurrection and start to elimination them to the point the resurrection could of happen.

    (Jesus never existed, Jesus is mostly mythological, the entire resurrection account being made-up, any of the resurrection account being made-up or embellished, grave robbery, etc etc) and the resurrection theory is thusly not worthy of belief.

    1. for jesus to not be real Christ mythers have to go throughout the most earliest church fathers and show them to be fake or forge. infact this is what Christ mythers believe WITHOUT DIRECT evidence.

    They would have to prove the part where it says james the brother of Jesus the so called Christ was stoned and like i said there is almost no debeat this is fake and No DIRECT evidence to show it fake.

    the entire resurrection account being made-up, any of the resurrection account being made-up or embellished, grave robbery, etc etc) and the resurrection theory is thusly not worthy of belief.

    except one Thing over 90% scholars accpet Paul in letters in 56-58 ad that the one of the very firiest creeds about Jesus resurrection . I believe this is book 1 corth.

    Also for Christ mythsers for there case believe The church fathers are forge again without direct evidence. They have to late date the gospels which the NT it self was being quoted in 70ad. they have to challenge the writings of the earliest church fathers to be forge with No creditable Historian or scholar believers etc.. many things they need to change without DIRECT evidence.

    why would treasure hunters ( people who robe graves and other means) want a dead recent body?

    let me ask you this do you consider the statement Jesus was not real an extraordinary claim ? but they also on their side can not offer any direct proof? that what Christ mythers and others claim.

    also question many people die for what they believe to be true but would you die for what you know to be a lie?

  • 317. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:22 pm

    They would have to prove the part where it says james the brother of Jesus the so called Christ was stoned and like i said there is almost no debeat this is real and No DIRECT evidence to show it fake.

    typo srry i mean real not fake

  • 318. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    The other thing is no hostile would admit Jesus really rose from the dead but they do admit the tomb was empty .

    People were converting to Christianity like Hot cakes during the jesus lived and also died and you would wonder how thousands of people would be trick into believing a resurrection that never happen in the first place and I think if jesus stayed dead it would taken years for people , people outside of the time line Jesus live in to convert.

  • 319. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 8:57 pm

    cag if your not going to listen to me or the biblical scholars or classical Historians who would you listen to?

  • 320. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    Travis, can you not see that if Jim Jones can get over 900 followers at a time when we no longer think that rain comes from angels crying or lightning is thrown by Thor, then Jesus having followers does in no way prove anything about him.
    Your types make the claim that Jesus lived – this may be so, I have doubts but such a person may have lived. Your types then go on to claim divine origin for Jesus. This is where extraordinary proof is needed and not offered. The bible is not proof of anything except that there were storytellers in the bronze age.
    Jesus and Jim Jones were just humans who were no holier than I (and I’m definitely not holy).

    I think people would be smart enough and say wait a minute I live during this so called jesus time and report he was not real but we do not see any support for this do we?.

    You have got to be kidding – why would anyone report on a non-event. If that is a sample of the logic you use then I would suggest proof-reading with a critical (dare I say sceptic) eye!
    You are right that you will never convince me that there is anything supernatural out there. Every day there are discoveries about our natural environment – there is no need for gods. You obviously couldn’t figure out that the polytheism comment was to show that believing does not equate to truth. Just because there is (as you replied to BigHouse

    except one Thing over 90% scholars accpet Paul in letters in 56-58 ad that the one of the very firiest creeds about Jesus resurrection . I believe this is book 1 corth.

    Apart from not making much sense, 90% of any group believing in anything does not make it true.

    You have not proved anything to me. The easiest would be to prove that Jesus lived. If proved, that would not in any way prove that Jesus had any extraordinary powers (don’t quote the bible to prove the bible). If that hurdle is passed, the big one still remains.

  • 321. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:22 pm

    Bighouse I have no direct evidence from hostiles admitting his resurrection or any person that was there at the time so if that what you want as direct evidence and the evidence that thousands converting even after his death and resurrection is not good enough then i do not know how to convince you.

  • 322. BigHouse  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:47 pm

    Travis, you continue to lack an understanding of how to assess and qualify evidence so I am done trying to reason with you.

  • 323. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 9:57 pm

    I have doubts but such a person may have lived. Your types then go on to claim divine origin for Jesus. This is where extraordinary proof is needed and not offered. The bible is not proof of anything except that there were storytellers in the bronze age.
    Jesus and Jim Jones were just humans who were no holier than I (and I’m definitely not holy).

    The divine origin is not in question Here as if Jesus is God that is. That something that can not be proven or disproving base on faith on what Jesus had said.

    You have got to be kidding – why would anyone report on a non-event. If that is a sample of the logic you use then I would suggest proof-reading with a critical (dare I say sceptic) eye!

    so your saying if there was a non-invent and the apostles went on preaching about it No one would stand up and expose them? now YOU have to be kidding me.

    You are right that you will never convince me that there is anything supernatural out there. Every day there are discoveries about our natural environment – there is no need for gods. You obviously couldn’t figure out that the polytheism comment was to show that believing does not equate to truth. Just because

    if you read your own work carefull your commenting on Jesus existed base on The greek mythology on what would be the difference and the differents is no one accpets any real zeus but many do accpet a real Jesus.

    You ask the question what would be the differences from my God form theirs well One, The one i believe in that is God by faith walk the earth.

    You have not proved anything to me. The easiest would be to prove that Jesus lived. If proved, that would not in any way prove that Jesus had any extraordinary powers (don’t quote the bible to prove the bible). If that hurdle is passed, the big one still remains.

    basic your saying because jesus is to believe to have powers your not going to accpet any evidence for his existed and if top scholars classical Historians all agree that one.

    1. some part of Josephus writings might been corrupted but many accpet that jesus did have a part .

    also note what some people believe to be corrupted can be found in any other version of Josephus.

    2. Even thou There is almost no debate that the part that said james The brother of the so called Christ was stone your going to reject it base on your bias that Jesus never had powers.

    I have to say you rejecting on what many scholars and Historians find accurate just because you do not believe he had any powers weak and infact that the weakest arguments against jesus.

  • 324. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:00 pm

    big house k I guess the game of elimination which courts sometimes play is not good enouch for you.

  • 325. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:08 pm

    BigHouse, I’m with you. Travis, like every other overly religious person, has no real grounds for their irrational beliefs. They cannot be reasoned out of their beliefs as long as they cannot reason. They did not use reason to get where they are so they will remain in the bronze age while the rational among us look forward to tomorrows discoveries instead of yesterdays myths.

    Leave them in their cesspool of ignorance, and save your energy for reasonable discourse with nominal christians.

  • 326. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:17 pm

    Bighouse I strongly believe from your posted even if the most possible means can be rule out your not accpet the possible of the impossible means base on your bias

  • 327. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:18 pm

    opps sorry that comment was for cag well it can be for both but it was basic for cag

  • 328. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:23 pm

    BigHouse, I’m with you. Travis, like every other overly religious person, has no real grounds for their irrational beliefs. They cannot be reasoned out of their beliefs as long as they cannot reason. They did not use reason to get where they are so they will remain in the bronze age while the rational among us look forward to tomorrows discoveries instead of yesterdays myths.

    Leave them in their cesspool of ignorance, and save your energy for reasonable discourse with nominal christians.

    I think i can reason pretty good my self but if you thin other wise then ok but I find it very irrational and bias to reject any evidence from what biblical scholard or classical historians believe that hold true about jesus, just because you do not believe he had powers.

    The Point is you do not believe in the impossible so it would not matter if any possible means can be rule out.

  • 329. cag  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:35 pm

    Travis, against my better judgement, I will reply.

    You wrote

    I think people would be smart enough and say wait a minute I live during this so called jesus time and report he was not real but we do not see any support for this do we?.

    I replied

    You have got to be kidding – why would anyone report on a non-event. If that is a sample of the logic you use then I would suggest proof-reading with a critical (dare I say sceptic) eye!
    You replied

    so your saying if there was a non-invent and the apostles went on preaching about it No one would stand up and expose them? now YOU have to be kidding me.

    >/blockquote>
    What are you trying to say, in the first case you say that if there was no Jesus then people would report that there was no Jesus. That makes no sense. People do not report that there is no pink unicorn. Then you turn around and talk about apostles preaching about a non-event. There is no connection between the two.
    Even if your grammar and spelling was fixed you would still not make sense.

    I’m done arguing with this religiotard.
    -30-

  • 330. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    again your case against jesus is weak.

    why would anyone consider anyone rational if they reject his existed no matter what biblical scholars or classical Historians have to say because of there own bias that he not real because people claim he has powers.

    infant many others people even today claim to ahve powers are you going to doubt the people of today that claim this not real or their power?

    I was talking in the format if jesus is real and he died and stayed dead and then his followers go about claiming his resurrection you would expect people to expose them or testify against them.

  • 331. notimaginary  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:17 pm

    #330 – what does that say in English?
    The myth about resurrection was written decades after the “fact”, so the locals had no way of knowing that there were claims of resurrection. There are no people living today with any special powers.

  • 332. Travis  |  March 25, 2010 at 11:45 pm

    Notimaginary

    The myth of the resurrection was no written “decades” after the fact

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Corinthians

    The epistle was written from Ephesus (16:8), a city on the west coast of today’s Turkey, about 180 miles by sea from Corinth. According to Acts of the Apostles, Paul founded the church in Corinth (Acts 18:1-17), then spent approximately three years in Ephesus (Acts 19:8, 19:10, 20:31). The letter was written during this time in Ephesus, which is usually dated as being in the range of 53 to 57 AD.[1][2]

    First corth contains The resurrection it dated 53 ad no more then 20 years after The existed of jesus but everyone started orally before it is written down so paul could of been preaching about the resurrection even before he started to write it.

    Notimaginary…

    cag rejecting jesus existed on his bias that people say he had powers which is not really a good argument or oone at all against jesus.

  • 333. notimaginary  |  March 26, 2010 at 12:08 am

    #332 So it took 2 decades for someone to actually write about the “resurrection”? Must have been a really important event. Can you not see how silly this makes the whole business, an insider writes an account well after the fact and you expect a bunch of atheists to even consider this as plausible rather than pathetically laughable? You expect us to accept the word of one of the first spin doctors for your religion. That is highly unlikely.

  • 334. Travis  |  March 26, 2010 at 12:37 am

    332 So it took 2 decades for someone to actually write about the “resurrection”? Must have been a really important event.

    Like I said your lack of understanding everything begin orally and people would already knew from word from mouth before he started to write his letters.

    What i find pathetically laughable is

    1. the body was stolen The roman government consider Jesus movement a threat after his death and some people believe somehow a group of people taken on The roman government.

    What i consider laughable is that the roman Government was under mine in any way when it never lost to military combat but fell from within because of money issues Kind of like USA is in today.

    you have The theory jesus never really died on the cross but this is disprove to jesus was stab and blood and water came out, there is small patch of water around the heart and when the spear went through it went through the heart.

    You have Jesus body eaten by animals but i doubt they could eat through rock.

    You have grave robbing but what treasure hunter would want with a recent dead body?

    The Point is Everyone where is bias that the impossible can not happen and it will not matter if the most possible means can be ruled out.

    I said this before jesus annouce his self God and lord of all which would bring a shock wave to roman rule because they believe their leader was Lord of all in that area.

    You can bet the roman government like i said before consider The jesus movement a threat.

    the romans were the first to rise up agaist Christians.

    In The end sense no one here believe in the Impossible it would not matter if substantial evidence could rule out the very most possible means.

  • 335. Travis  |  March 26, 2010 at 12:49 am

    but I pretty much done here no sense for me to go on any more and I let people think what they want about the empty Tomb.

    but note everything begin orally and everyone can visit this site

    http://www.christian-thinktank.com/noquotes1.html

    Good bye everyone and cag i hope someday you lose the bias Jesus was not real because he was to have pwoers because there are people in ancient past that really lived and thought to have powers.

  • 336. notimaginary  |  March 26, 2010 at 12:54 am

    #334 What! Twenty years to write down what christians believe is the most important event in history, and recorded by someone who had a vested interest in making the story seem legitimate. The mind boggles. I’m going to emulate BigHouse and write you off as a pathetic loon who is so godbesotted that reason cannot penetrate your scull.

  • 337. amy  |  March 26, 2010 at 8:30 am

    The Point is you do not believe in the impossible so it would not matter if any possible means can be rule out.

    Uh, yeah, we don’t believe in the impossible. Because it’s, by definition, impossible.

  • 338. lexieydoodle  |  April 10, 2010 at 11:37 am

    Stuff like this always upsets me :(
    It is awful how nothing seems to spurn hatred as beautifully as religion does. But hatred is hatred and trying to compare religious folk and atheists doesn’t seem like a good approach, i think a better one is to try and live harmoniously. Atheists are no more moral then the religious and vice verse. People are people!
    Some are horrifying and others are beautiful.

  • 339. Robert  |  April 20, 2010 at 3:19 pm

    5. Abortions, while not the ideal solution, should be legal and safe. Sometimes they are necessary, and a woman or girl shouldn’t be bullied or forced into carrying a baby to term.

    10. I value the lives of others too, for the same reason

    Yeah, I’d say most atheists are definitely morally superior to religious fundamentalists.

    -Seriously that’s why a woman needs the option of a morning after pill. Who cares if two cells die you kill millions a babies each time you beat your meat. You really give a shit about something with no cognitive functions?

  • 340. Chris  |  May 4, 2010 at 8:51 pm

    rAmen! May his noodly appendage touch you.

    Good article. These religious folks really are a strange bunch. No wonder they hate atheists though, we who contantly point at the many flaws, errors and contradictions in their irrational belief systems.

  • 341. OnTheBrinkOfInsanity  |  May 5, 2010 at 1:53 am

    God is our enemy. What kind of a loving God creates humans who bicker with each other? We are supposed to be “brothers” and “sisters” shall we say. Not fucking enemies who constantly fight. I believe in a God but that does not mean I also have to support and love that God. I truly believe that God is selfish and jealous. He didn’t want anyone to be perfect like him so he made humans flawed. If humans were perfect, none of that stupid tree of knowledge shit would have happened and we would be living in times of ultimate peace and prosperity. Plus, why keep Satan around if you are against everything he stands for? That just makes God retarded or simply allows Satan to be around to put the blame on someone else for his own mistakes. Basically, because God doesn’t want to change his mind even if that change would bring benefit because if he does change his mind, that would mean he made a mistake and for some reason his damn ego is so large that he doesn’t want to accept his misguidedness. Jesus didn’t die for jack shit. The sins he died for were human sins but God made humans and that means as a result he created sin and cursed us with it to keep us in control and keep us from complete peace among humans. If God is against sin and hatred, why does he have them on the world he, according to many, created lovingly? Please, don’t say that if God made everything perfect he wouldn’t be needed. He would be needed because he would be loved by all, all over the world and he would be needed to keep the world at its perfect state. When I mean perfect, I mean their is no evil actions being allowed to be committed. For example, if a person plans to kill someone, they can’t kill the person no matter how hard a person tries because only good deeds could become reality and all evil deeds could only come as far as thoughts but not reality.

  • 342. Orion  |  May 5, 2010 at 8:56 am

    You certainly seem threatened by a divine power (not the Bible). I hope you don’t discount a higher power, as it is a mathematical certainty they exist. Oh well, you have extremists everywhere. Neece is just an extremist on the other side of the fundamentalists. Both spew hate for the other; neither is correct…

  • 343. DSimon  |  May 5, 2010 at 2:01 pm

    I hope you don’t discount a higher power, as it is a mathematical certainty they exist.

    That is the silliest thing I’ve heard this month. Though, it’s still early in May, maybe somebody will top it.

  • 344. Orion  |  May 5, 2010 at 4:00 pm

    It is very easy yo throw a blanket on something and call it “silly.” It’s more difficult to explain your blanket statement. Care to elaborate?

  • 345. withheld  |  May 5, 2010 at 5:10 pm

    Ok, please provide your mathematical proof of a higher power.

    Show all work.

  • 346. DSimon  |  May 6, 2010 at 9:36 am

    Orion, no scientist goes around making scientific claims (i.e. claims about the nature of the universe) by saying “It’s mathematically proven that this is so!”. Math is a very powerful tool often used in science, but just because something makes sense on paper is no substitute for falsifiable evidence.

    Having seen many of these before, I strongly suspect that this “mathematical proof” will start with some assumptions which make intuitive sense but aren’t rigorously defended or even well defined. It will then proceed to infer from these unwarranted assumptions that the fact that the universe exists at all is logically impossible unless we assume some very loosely defined factor X. It will conclude by renaming factor X “God” for no clearly explained reason.

    In other words, a word game, completely divorced from the real world it purports to describe, and totally unfalsifiable.

    However, as withheld said, please show or link this proof and prove me wrong. I’m perfectly willing to look at whatever evidence or arguments you’ve got.

  • 347. Lyra's Alias  |  June 12, 2010 at 12:13 am

    I’m interested to see how exactly this “mathematical certainty” looks as well.

  • 348. Kerberos  |  June 14, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    “Yeah, I’d say most atheists are definitely morally superior to religious fundamentalists.”

    ## Christianity – leaving aside the other religions/worships – is not necessarily hurt by that.

    But first: is “fundamentalist” as used in your article, simply a descriptor for “those crazy fanatics with their absurd BibleGod baloney who hate gays & attack belief in evolution & babble on about Armageddon & all that garbage” ? – or, are you including all Christians, worldwide, regardless of whether they are fundamentalists by the standards of US Evengelical Fundamentalist Protestantism ?

  • 349. Kerberos  |  June 14, 2010 at 7:36 pm

    “On the other hand, if you are truly interested in breaking free of the iron fist of god ruling your life and keeping you in ignorant fear, you can go to the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible and look around for yourself.”

    ## The SAB is interesting, but it’s woefully unconvincing. It may impress Fundamentalists, but it’s no threat to anyone who does not treat the Bible as inerrant, beyond criticism, morally and theologically perfect. The Bible does not stand or fall according to whether it historically or morally or otherwise faultless. 100 years ago, it still did, for many – but not now. Those issues are not what engage the interest of most Biblical scholarship; most scholars are more likely to be interested in the theology of the books – something totally ignored by the SAB; it ignores
    almost everything that is really important or interesting about or in the Bible. It shows the Bible is an entirely human set of books – but a) that is not a denial of its inspiration, which cannot be proved or disproved; b) the full humanity of the books is not an issue; it has been realised for a 100 or so years that to insist on its humanity does not imply a denial of its divinity; except among rationalists: a publication of the Rationalist Press Association in 1943 made some of the points the SAB makes, apparently supposing that they were disproof of its inspiration, when they are proof only of its humanity.

    The SAB’s approach is, for a lot of Christians (Jews I can’t speak for, not knowing much about Jewish attitudes to their sacred books), though not for all, very badly out of date. The criticisms read as though written by a Fundamentalist, but one *without* a Evangelical Christian faith. Maybe the author was an ex-Evangelical ?

    What I would like very miuch to come across, is a civilised discussion of the Bible between its non-Christian critics and those who revere it as sacred. It should be possible for such a thing to happen.

  • 350. Quester  |  June 14, 2010 at 10:43 pm

    What I would like very miuch to come across, is a civilised discussion of the Bible between its non-Christian critics and those who revere it as sacred. It should be possible for such a thing to happen.

    Meh, it might be possible, but once you’ve admitted that the Bible is a text created by humans, containing factual errors, inconsistencies, incoherent theologies and repugnant moral guidelines, there’s very little left to say. We could discuss the Bible as a sacrament (using St. Augustine’s sacramental theology), which would take about a paragraph. We could talk about the Bible being inspired as Adam was- worth maybe a footnote or two. Logos, Living Word, Incarnate Revelation- it’s all just synonyms for “I’m making stuff up because it makes me feel good.” No. I worked in ecumenical ministries for 20 years before deconverting. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are speaking from ignorance instead of intentional deceit as you attempt to describe those who see the Bible as inerrant to be in the minority. Frankly, the SAB is striking right at the heart of the matter. Once you’ve realized that the Bible contains errors, and that it is possible to list many errors, but impossible to list what might actually be true, all that’s left to talk about boils down to literary criticism, of a poorly written series of laws, genealogies, and fantasies. If that interests you, finding a bored and retired English professor with a lot of spare time might be your best bet.

  • 351. Thomas / Tomas S  |  June 15, 2010 at 6:41 am

    On the original topic of wether atheists have a better basis for morality than believers, I will recommend the book Living Without God by Ronald Aronson. Atheists have a stronger basis because they can consider the complex web of cause and effect for what it is. It doesn’t have to be broken down in to black and white absurdities, such as Mother Teresa saying that condom uses is just like abortion, and abortion is just like murder, leaving us to make our own syllogism that condom use is just like murder. (“I’ve used a lot of condoms in my life – what’s one more murder … for real this time.”)

  • 352. tradersam1  |  June 16, 2010 at 12:53 am

    This is a response to Quester: I think you have hit on a key point that most religionists in the world fail to acknowledge. The Bible is a flawed document. It is flawed because individuals have attempted to translate it who did not have the authority to do so. With the end of the apostolic age, the authority to act as God’s mouthpiece vanished from the world. We were thus plunged into a great apostasy (one of seven throughout biblical history). Constantine (murdered his brother and wife) called the council of Nicea to establish a canon, but it was too late. Early church fathers (Jerome, Origen) knew this and wrote of it, but their writings are lost to the unschooled. Until the world unites behind God’s prophet, they will know no differently than anyone has for nearly 2000 years.

  • 353. portwes  |  June 16, 2010 at 1:23 am

    Nutcase alert!

  • 354. Thomas / Tomas S  |  June 16, 2010 at 7:19 am

    Is it any more nutty to believe that correct biblical interpretation (and preservation) is limited to a privledged group than to believe that a clearly flawed book is flawless?

    For that matter, how do we know that the “contradictions” aren’t intentional paradoxes — koans designed to move us to think about a world beyond human comprehension?

    It could be that God has an imperfect communication path to humans (ever try talking to an ant?) and is progressively revealing himself through the years by blessing the mistranslations and dubious corrections.

    Or, it could all be rubish.

  • 355. DSimon  |  June 16, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Thomas, or alternately, God may exist but just be yanking us around for kicks.

    “No, seriously guys, you should’ve seen the looks on your faces when I told you about the eternal damnation thing! Priceless!”

  • 356. Thomas / Tomas S  |  June 16, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    Kind of like Frat hazing. Yeah, could be. “Hey, remember when you made me eat dog poop? That was a good one. Ha ha ha.”

  • 357. Anonymous  |  October 17, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Neece what you describe as the golden rule is considered to be a concept called “virtue” in philsophy. It is the main stay of every religion and belief to follow virtue in our approach in life.. and even though each religion is very different in regards to what they see as virtue, there is nevertheless a commonality of each religion that agree on certain virtues. Don’t lie, steal, kill, slander, etc.

    Simply put a virtue is any act, that if everyone in the world would do, would, as a result, end up in a positive effect for everyone. If someone performed an act that would not end up in a positive result, then it could be considered a pointless act or an anti-virtue.

    War, as an act, if everyone did.. would never result in peace or a positive outcome for everyone. Compassion and giving tohe poor, if everyone did, WOULD result in a positive income. I’m using giving to the poor and war as examples because nothing can be more stark and different/opposites to one another than that.

    Great article.

  • 358. BigHouse  |  October 18, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    I think your view is rather simplistic and thusly, not very informative, annonymous. There are many acts that are good in an instance but would be terrible if everyone in the world did them. And conversely, I can envision scenarios where worldwide war could generate positive outcomes.

    I think you have backed into why the term “moral absokutes” are also not very informative either. Generalizations tend to break down at the extremes.

  • 359. Tomas S  |  October 19, 2010 at 6:46 am

    I was thinking about Anonymous’s comment the other night. It seems to me that the same action can be seen as a “virtue” depending on how you word it. We can say that “war” is not a virtue by A’s definition, but then again, neither is ignoring inustice – which is what pacifism usually turns into.

    I like the way Ronald Aronson handles this question. He says that Atheists can be more moral than religous people exactly because they don’t have to believe in moral absolutes handed down by God. We can look at our actions and try to understand the complicated mix of good and bad effects, and then decide based on that.

  • 360. DEI  |  November 6, 2010 at 9:41 pm

    Define ‘moral’.

    You see, once you attempt to define moral you soon realise the by attempting to ascribe to some arbitrary morality you’re not really much better than the religious people. If you need ‘morality’ to be your guide in right from wrong, if you need to delude yourself into believing that you’re in anyway selfless and this isn’t all ultimately some selfish goal, how are you really any different from the religious person?

  • 361. Tomas S  |  November 7, 2010 at 9:26 am

    DEI – who cares, really? I’m sure many of the unbelievers who are aware of the diffficulty from a philophical point of view. In practice, we all know what we mean by “moral” and most of the poeple we run into on a daily basis have the same basic assumptions on what makes something “good” or “bad”. Why get hung up on a point we agree on?

  • 362. Kevin  |  December 4, 2010 at 8:27 pm

    “Reason is the greatest enemy of faith.” I actually saw that quote on a Protestant church’s sign. I think that’s the only time they were really honest with themselves, although they completely misinterpreted the results. Basically, this is their train of thought: thinking logically about Christianity leads me to the conclusion that it is false; therefore, i should not think logically about it. Wtf? Yeah, my position makes no sense if I really think about it. So I’m not going to think about it.

  • 363. Eve's Apple  |  December 15, 2010 at 8:28 pm

    Ok, let’s stop this playground pointing fingers at each other and saying “X is more moral than Y.” As far as I am concerned they are both equal.

    All through school I was bullied and harassed because I was different from other people. I started out in a godless, prayerless public school, then switched to a Catholic school where nearly everyone went to Mass daily, And you know what? There really wasn’t all that much difference between them. I was treated like shit both places.

    So you can argue all you want over who is more moral but the bottom line for me is how you walk the walk. I don’t care if you are atheist or believer. There are people out there who are hurting, who are in need. There are students who are being bullied while everyone, atheist and Christian alike, look the other way. There are injustices that need to be righted. In short, there is plenty of work to do. And in the long run, does it really matter? Which is more important to a hungry person, the food or the name the giver of the food calls him or herself? If just ONE person had stood up for me all those years of being teased, I would not have cared whether they believed in God or not.

    Bottom line: there are people who choose to get involved and there are people who choose not to, Religion or the lack of religion really has nothing to do with it,

  • 364. Candy Kisses  |  January 10, 2011 at 11:37 pm

    bahahaha. That was the most halarious article I have ever read! Ignorance is truely bliss your view is twisted lol. BAHAHA I am sorry but that whole article cracked me up so much I can not quit laughing. So long Monkey Boy.

  • 365. America! Fuck Yeah? « D3ATH ROW3  |  February 11, 2011 at 4:43 pm

    [...] sciences. We censor classic books to please whiny people too stupid to see how ironic it is. People treat others with selfish hate and intolerance based on fairy tales rather than embracing an form of true morality. This isn’t the same country that our [...]

  • 366. The Atheist Advocate  |  February 19, 2011 at 8:23 pm

    “I, nor anyone else, will ever prove God does not exist. However, science consistently proves he is unnecessary.” ~ Kenny Duit

    “Placing a gun to a child’s head expecting conformity is criminal. Threatening that child with eternal damnation is morally corrupt, mentally abusive, and criminally insane.” ~ Kenny Duit

    I have never seen a news report of an atheist strapping explosives to themselves and killing innocent people in the name of Atheistic Jihad. This alone, by default, makes atheists more moral than any religious group, who have plenty of atrocities to their names. Good people will always do good things and bad people will always do bad things, but for good people to do bad things takes religion.

  • 367. Joseph Morton  |  February 27, 2011 at 11:56 pm

    Atheist are as bad as fundamentalist – both claim to know something they do not know. Go team agnostic!

  • 368. Ubi Dubium  |  February 28, 2011 at 10:07 am

    Joseph, that’s a common misconception. Most atheists I have ever run into do not claim that they can prove there is “no god”. Our position is that the people claiming that there is a god have not successfully made their case. Until such time as there is sufficient evidence to show that there is a god, we are not going to believe in one. And given the success rate of the theists in supporting their claim so far, it’s highly unlikely that they will ever be able to provide adequate evidence.

    You can be both agnostic (lacking knowledge) and atheist (lakcing belief in a god) at the same time.

  • 369. tinman  |  March 10, 2011 at 4:48 pm

    A man stands next to a road in the middle of a desert. He is much too far from the known sources of water to be there, yet there he is- completely happy, hydrated and healthy. People pass him from time to time. Many are thirsty and know they will not make it far. Some ask the man for help. He gladly assists them, pointing toward a much closer water source so they will survive their journey. Others are thirsty but do not ask the man for help. They will survive on their own- or not- but the choice is theirs to make. Others pass the man but are not thirsty. The man knows they will not complete their journey unless they accept assistance. Some do. Most do not. It is their choice, not his. Still others mock the man, even attack him, saying “You fool! Why do you stand in the desert! You have no purpose! I can give you 10 reasons not to be here! Get a life!” These people make the man very sad. They are dying- and don’t even know they are thirsty.

  • 370. BigHouse  |  March 11, 2011 at 2:14 pm

    Is the man by the road in this little parable, Jesus? Is the knowledge of where the water is the plan of salvation?

    If so, this is a cute little allegory that actually parallels the Christian myth quite nicely.

    Note the man doesn’t volunteer the info he has at no cost to himself, lest he “save” people who incorrectly don’t know they are thirsty or that the man even knows how to fix thirst.

    You’ve successfully identified one of the major flaws in Christian theology: the incoherent notion that knowledge trumps free will.

  • 371. tinman  |  March 14, 2011 at 12:11 pm

    Everybody is thirsty whether they know it or not- it’s the attempt to alleviate the thirst that’s the cause of so much sorrow. Many people, even alot of Christians, believe that the “fix” to their pain is the the right relationship, or a better car, or the perfect body. They dull their pain with drugs and alcohol, or try to repair themselves with self help books. Eventually even the strongest soul comes across something they can’t explain, justify or bull their way through. Their child dies. Their spouse leaves them. They get a life threatening disease. And they crumble. Or they use the curveball life has thrown them to turn away from God or claim he doesn’t exist because things don’t go their way. Many Christians (a majority in fact) drop Christ when their lives take a downturn. It is a negative witness by them and creates a barrier- would you as a non-Christian look at a Christian friend as an example if he curses God when his life isn’t perfect? I wouldn’t! Just as a surfboard strapped to the top of my car doesn’t make me a surfer, neither does saying you follow Christ make you a Christian. “Facta, non verba!” I respect the atheist that lives his beliefs more than the Christian who doesn’t live his- but I’ll keep talking to both because both have value.

  • 372. Ubi Dubium  |  March 15, 2011 at 9:13 am

    Ah, tinman is not just a drive-by!

    Tinman, I appreciate your respect for an atheist that lives by their beliefs. We don’t tend to get a lot of that from xians around here.

    But I think you have a misconception about deconverting. Most deconverts I have talked with have not left their faith because of some major bad event in their lives (a few yes, but not many). Most of the ones I have talked to, and read the testimonies of, have left because of the day-to-day failure and inconsistencies of their religion. That searching for the perfect “fix” for their pain you mention is often because religion says that it has the “fix” but never delivers it. Then it pins the blame on the believer for not believing hard enough. “Just have enough faith and that will fix everything” says the church. But no matter how much faith someone has, it doesn’t fix anything. And often, what the believer winds up with is not peace, but guilt, worry, self-doubt and fear. That’s not what the pastors say religion is supposed to do for you. So we question it. “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!” thunders the Great and Powerful Oz. And then we look behind the curtain and find no “personal god with a perfect plan”, but just a sad humbug created by humans. So we leave it behind, find out that what we really needed we already had within ourselves all along, and finally grow up.

  • 373. tinman  |  March 15, 2011 at 12:24 pm

    Ubi-
    I love a good debate. The apostle Paul’s first stop in a new town was the local synagogue or pagan equivalent, where he would discuss Christ with Jewish rabbis, Greek philosophers, or anyone wishing to engage in open and honest discourse. As “steel sharpens steel” you are helping me to gain a better understanding of why so many believe that Christ is not the answer for them. Thank you!
    I agree that many Christians become “deconverts” (I don’t agree with the term but lets shelve that discussion- for now) because the church or the religon failed them in some way. Notice I said “church” and “religon”, not Christ. Christ died for us all (whether or not you believe)- why would He he pull a Lucy and yank the football away from us as we are trying to kick it? What you are relating is a leadership failure, not a God failure. Christ never promises us a problem free life. He promises joy despite circumstances, the “peace that passes all understanding.” Many pastors, bishops, shamans, witch doctors, etc punk out when it comes to explaining the great unanswerable question to their flock- “why do bad things happen to me?” They dump it back on the person by blaming their lack of faith, or not praying hard enough, or whatever. These leaders are wrong! Bad things happen to give God the chance to work in our lives. If your pastor gives you a laundry list of stuff to do then blames you for not doing it when things go wrong you need to find another pastor. That’s not biblical. If you believe that Christ is the son of God and died for your sins, live a life of gratitude to Him and love others the way Christ loves you, that’s it! It’s no guarantee of a problem free life, or even a worry free life, and it’s no “one and done” deal- it’s something you will struggle with daily. Christ freed us from the Old Testament laws and many present day pastors try to hamstring us with a bunch of rules to maintain some kind of hold on their flock. Got news for ya “Brother Big Hair”- it doesn’t go from me to you to God! I can build an incredible relationship with Christ without your intervention- that’s what Christ died for. Ubi there is an Oz. And the men behind the curtain pulling the levers are going to be pretty surprised one day to find out that it was God, not them really running the show.

  • 374. cag  |  March 15, 2011 at 2:18 pm

    Tinman, are you a biblical literalist? It is the bible that convinces us that the whole of christianity is the purest form of bullshit. The first 10 words of the bible claims that the earth is the centre of the universe. Pure bullshit, an inadvertent lie as the ancients did not know better. Do not tell us that this is metaphor when we are presented with a list of “this happened on day X”. The authors of the bible thought that the stars in the skies were no more luminous than fireflies, and of the “six” days, five were spent creating the earth and one day was for all the billions of galaxies. Not a very convincing argument for anyone who does not have a stake in upholding the bullshit dogma.

    Until you present real evidence, not wishful thinking, that your god is real (you would be the first person in history), your jesus remains just a fictional character in a horrendous fiction rag.

    I invite your god to strike me dead as I submit this missive. I have no fear of Superman, Batman, Spiderman, ganesh or your god – they are all imaginary.

    Repeat a lie often enough and many people will start to believe. It is still a lie. The religious have polished the turd but it still stinks.

    If you are one of the geocentric believers, please explain how geostationary satellites work.

  • 375. cag  |  March 15, 2011 at 2:31 pm

    Hey Tinman, I’m still here. Your pusillanimous, fictitious god, creator of ebola viruses, bilharzia snails, anopheles mosquitoes, plague bacteria and a plethora of other scourges, able to kill thousands in Japan, Haiti, Indonesia, Chile etc. is unable to silence someone who denies the trinity and actually calls bullshit “bullshit”.

    When will you stop believing the lies of those who wish to control your mind and pick your pocket?

  • 376. tinman  |  March 15, 2011 at 3:50 pm

    Cag-
    “In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth.” Sorry I don’t see any claim to the Earth being the center of the universe. Only that God created it. Please correct me if I’m misguided because I truly wish to understand your concerns. As to the literal interpretation of the Bible, just as the “ancients did not know better” as you say, wouldn’t it stand to reason that we could also be “ancients,” and the technology needed to disprove the literal interpretation of the Bible does not yet exist? Far fetched you say? Wouldn’t it be nice if Einsteins Theory of Relativity were disproven? Faster than light travel, folding the time space continuum- both could be possible! God tells us in Isaiah 55:8 “My ways are not your ways….” This can help reconcile the timeline in the first chapter of Genesis. We can, as scientists, look at carbon dating, fossil evidence, strata, etc as the basis for the age of the universe and use it to disprove the creation story of the Bible. The existence of these things are facts, how we interpret these facts are up to us. Once upon a time it was thought the Earth was the center of the universe and everything orbited it. Copernicus disproved that theory. Just as the Eternal Steady State Theory of the universe gave way to the Big Bang Theory. How future scientists reconcile Dark Matter, the Flatness/Oldness Problem, etc with the Big Bang Theory may help provide some additional evidence for the 6 day creation and alleviate some of your concerns. I truly hope so.

    As for you asking God to strike you dead, I’ll quote Jim Carrey’s Riddler from Batman Forever- ” If he’s dead, he won’t learn nothin’!” God has a plan for all of us- even you! The decisions you make are yours, but the ramifications of those decisions can be used by God to bring others closer to Him- and you if you one day earnestly seek Him. He’s actually using you right now. Many people have the same concerns as you and your courage in asking them allows us to discuss them where others can see. I’d like to think we’re helping one another.

    Sorry this took so long but I had to look up pusillanimous. What is more courageous than dying for people who doubt your very existence? God humanized himself to see what we go through, to feel our pain and our temptations, then willingly allowed himself to be killed in the most grotesque way imaginable so that we have the chance to live. Me, the Christian. You, the Atheist. Osama Bin Laden. Mother Teresa. Everyone.

    We can debate the questions “Why do bad things happen to good people” and “Why is there evil in the world” forever but the simple fact is that humans pay attention when tragedy occurs. Sucks, but it’s true. And God is in this for eternity. My friends had to bury their 12 year old son- a parasitic organism caused what they thought was meningitis. He picked it up while water skiing. The family’s faithfulness and reliance on God to bring them through the worst tragedy a parent can endure was a testimony- and other people chose to follow Christ as a result. Did God wish that boy dead? Of course not! Did God use a tragedy to enrich His kingdom. Of course.

    Just because I’m a Christian doesn’t mean that I allow any pastor, tv evangelist or street corner prophet to have sway over me. I read my Bible. I pray. And anything a religous leader says I verify. I give a percentage of my income to my church as a tithe because the Bible says so. But I also give to the Red Cross, the United Way, the Girl Scouts and Little League.

    As Paul wrote in Hebrews, “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

  • 377. cag  |  March 15, 2011 at 4:52 pm

    Tinman, earth being created prior to all other celestial bodies is the basis of geocentrism. If you don’t understand this, then I question your ability to read the bible with any understanding and your ability to verify the lies told by religious “authorities”. And I see that you voluntarily allow the religious liars to pick your pocket.

    I do not seek the imaginary. I do not indoctrinate children with lies that they will then pass on to their children ad infinitum. You are a victim of this vicious cycle.

    Your god does not exist, never existed and never will exist. You have not provided any evidence for any god, much less yours.

    The bible is fiction, your god cannot harm me because it does not exist. Thanking god for creating a parasitic organism that kills children is an indictment of the whole religious thought process. Atheists have morals, theists have rules/commandments.

    If the world we live in is part of god’s plan, may I request that the plan be revised to something that is more humane?

    Why is it that theists are always making excuses for their god (“My ways are not your ways….”, free will, etc)? Why do they have to do “god’s work”. Isn’t god supposed to be omnipotent. Why would an omnipotent being need help?

    Prove that any god exists!

  • 378. BigHouse  |  March 16, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    As Paul wrote in Hebrews, “Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

    Hope and lack of evidence are horrible foundations for establishing truth. It’s wishcasting pure and simple.

  • 379. Eve's Apple  |  March 16, 2011 at 7:41 pm

    “Did God use a tragedy to enrich his kingdom? Cf course.”

    Must be a pretty poor God and a pretty poor kingdom if tragedy is something that enriches it. And this is supposed to be the “good guy”. I guess we ought to be thankful that Satan isn’t God–though I wonder if there really is all that much difference when it comes down to it.

    Anyway, the way things have been going in Japan lately he’s really raking in the riches . . .Woo hoo, way to go. Hallelujah, rejoice. Somehow I don’t think the Japanese people are thrilled to be enriching God’s kingdom.

  • 380. Ubi Dubium  |  March 16, 2011 at 10:15 pm

    Did God wish that boy dead? Of course not!

    Tinman, if your god is omnipotent, and did not wish the boy dead, then the boy would not be dead. That’s part of “omnipotent”. So either your god does wish the boy to be dead, or your god is not omnipotent, or your god is imaginary. All of that “using tragedy to enrich his kingdom” stuff comes across as a weak excuse for not being able to deal with the problem of evil.

    The problem of reconciling a benevolent god with harsh reality goes away when you realize that there is no one up there. There’s just the universe, it’s laws are impersonal, and it doesn’t care about us. When bad things happen, no one is being punished, no lesson is being taught, it’s just that bad stuff happens and nobody gets a special exemption for having the correct invisible friend.

  • 381. tinman  |  March 17, 2011 at 12:20 am

    Cag-
    Belief in the Bible doesn’t mean you believe in geocentrism by default. There are Christians that are geocentrists, just as I’m sure you will find atheists who are geocentrists if you look hard enough.That’s about as relevant to the argument as my politics although I readily admit Christian geocentrists make a big, fat juicy target. I’ve studied Ptolemay’s theory and its refutation, and also how Copernicus and Galileo established geokineticism. Insult my intelligence “ad infinitum” if you like, but if you are trying to break my argument using geocentrism you will have to do better than citing the work of a minority of pseudoscientists. (As an aside, if you use terms such as “sunrise” and “sunset” you are embracing geocentrism, as we all know the Sun doesn’t move around the Earth, the Earth moves around the Sun.) As I read Genesis, light and dark was day one which means anything that radiates/reflects light which means Sun, moons, stars, planets etc. Dry land (earth) is day three. If you would like to get into the literal Hebrew translation of our English word “heavens” I’m game.

    Looking back on my post I don’t see where I “thanked god for creating a parasitic organism that kills children.” When I’ve debated atheists face to face in the past statements like yours usually cause the discussion to degenerate into “I didn’t say that!” “Yes you did!” Fortunately we won’t have that problem here.

    I agree many atheists have morals and many Christians have commandments. The difference is atheistic morals can be relative and subject to situational flexability. If I have a decision to make of a moral nature I consult my Bible. It doesn’t change. What is your “plumb line?”

    For God to create a “more humane plan” he’d have to get rid of the humans. It’s our inability to trust Him that creates most of our problems. (I said “most” not “all”)

    Give me a list of things I can do to convince you God exists. And don’t give me any of that “strike me down crap.” I’ll give it an honest effort.

  • 382. tinman  |  March 17, 2011 at 12:25 am

    BigHouse-
    You exhibit faith all of the time and may not realize it. Is there evidence that your car will start when you turn the key? Just because it started yesterday is no guarantee. Do you take off your clothes before you get in the shower? Then you have faith that you will have running water. The existence of the pipes is not evidence of the water, right? Then why is my faith “wishcasting?”

  • 383. tinman  |  March 17, 2011 at 12:47 am

    Eve’s Apple and Ubi-
    The unanswerable question is “why do bad things happen to good people?” You say randomness. I say God. Why would an omnipotent God humanize himself and come to Earth for people that deny his existence? You say he doesn’t exist. I say he does.
    God doesn’t ask us to try to understand Him or to like what He does. God wants honesty. My relationship with Christ became infinitely more real when I talked to him about everything- not just the good stuff but the stuff I hated and the stuff I didn’t comprehend. Occasionally I got beat on the head with the answer I was looking for. More often than not I didn’t get the answer I was looking for or no answer at all….yet. Can I explain Japan? 9/11? The death of my friends child? No, and any explanation would ring hollow. I only know this. The amount of peace and joy in my life is in direct proportion to my relationship to Him. I’ve had many more rough times since I became a Christian than I had before. But the bitterness, and anger and resentment I used to feel do not consume me. Constant worrying and feelings of powerlessness don’t overwhelm me. And those that knew me before I knew Christ notice that difference and want to know what happened. I wish I could point you to a web page or mail you a microscope slide that would give you incontrovertable proof of God. But I only have me.

  • 384. cag  |  March 17, 2011 at 12:56 am

    Tinman, the bible states that the earth was created first. This is the first lie in the bible. This makes the bible a work of fiction. Nothing else matters – the bible is crap. Your god is imaginary. You believe in fiction, I believe in the provable.

    Did God use a tragedy to enrich His kingdom. Of course.

    This looks to me like gloating.

    Where is the evidence for any god? Only your “god” can convince me of its existence, the words of the religiously committed are not convincing. Surely an omnipotent being (who “loves” me) can show me the error of my ways. I’m not interested in excuses, excuses, excuses for why your god can’t or wont deal with me personally. All the excuses just verify the imaginary nature of your god, or any other gods.

    If I have a decision to make of a moral nature I consult my Bible. It doesn’t change.

    Something about Matthew 5:17-18

    5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    So your morality includes slavery and misogyny among other things that atheists find abominable. Disgusting.

  • 385. Ubi Dubium  |  March 17, 2011 at 9:08 am

    Tinman,

    You exhibit faith all of the time and may not realize it. Is there evidence that your car will start when you turn the key? Just because it started yesterday is no guarantee. Do you take off your clothes before you get in the shower? Then you have faith that you will have running water. The existence of the pipes is not evidence of the water, right? Then why is my faith “wishcasting?”

    You are confusing “Faith” with “confidence”. I have confidence that my car will probably start, because It has started reliably over the last months, I know there is fuel in the car, and I recently had the battery checked. I have confidence that the shower will come on because I just flushed the toilet and saw that I had running water. I have direct knowledge of specific evidence that gives me a high confidence level that something will work. “Faith” would be if my car had never started before, but I expected it would start today because I wished really hard that it would, and also had a tribal shaman make some magic over it just to be sure.

    You are talking about “Faith” that there is an invisible man in the sky who will punish you forever if you don’t believe one particular set of ancient myths. You have a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy (etc.) of a bronze-age book, the word of some self-appointed preachers, and some anecdotes as your evidence. You say your invisible friend communicates with you, yet you have different answers from other people who claim that the same being talks to them. If there was a supernatural being actually communicating with human beings, I’d expect there to be more agreement about the nature of this god. There isn’t any.

  • 386. Ubi Dubium  |  March 17, 2011 at 9:31 am

    Now to respond to another of your comments:

    I agree many atheists have morals and many Christians have commandments. The difference is atheistic morals can be relative and subject to situational flexability. If I have a decision to make of a moral nature I consult my Bible. It doesn’t change. What is your “plumb line?”

    My “plumb line” is that I am a social animal living as part of a society of other humans on which I and my offspring are dependent for our survival. Anything that weakens that society endangers me and my family directly, and so is to be avoided and/or prevented. For that society to be at its strongest, it functions the best if people are honest, hardworking, nonviolent (exceot in self defense) polite, coopertive, considerate, intelligent and educated. And so I strive to be those things. Things like violence, bigotry, wastefulness, and theft weaken us. Religious fanaticism divides us, and so weakens us.

    Our society’s ethics and morals developed on their own, because societies with effective rule systems win out over those with rules that don’t work as well. That’s why most of the world’s cultures share the same basic rules – they work. The rules don’t come from an ancient book and never did.

  • 387. Anonymous  |  March 20, 2011 at 11:57 pm

    I’m going to be perfectly honest here. this article is completely one-sided, which is its major flaw. because you are only skimming and running on hatred for religion. you haven’t even stopped to consider the point of view of christians, or really even know what you’re taking about. Most of what you said in the article isn’t even true of Christians who actually follow the bible the way it was written. We are not supposed to hate ANYONE. Men are not more important than women. The fact is you haven’t even read the Bible, its very obvious by your defense against it. If you actually read into it knon of what you said would stand. Try reading the new testament. You’ll get a different picture of christianity.

  • 388. Ubi Dubium  |  March 21, 2011 at 7:24 am

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!

    Haven’e even read the bible!!!!! That’s the funniest one I’ve heard this week! Do you have any idea who you are talking to? Obviously not. Hint – read the posts linked at the BIG RED EXCLAMATION POINT on the side of the page before posting again.

  • 389. BigHouse  |  March 21, 2011 at 9:06 am

    …who actually follow the bible the way it was written

    First of all, what does this evene mean. Second of all, where does one get the proper secret decoder ring to decipher this WAY the Bible was written?

  • 390. tinman  |  March 21, 2011 at 1:41 pm

    Cag-
    Please quote me chapter and verse in the Bible where it states that the Earth was created first. Then I’ll address it. You’ve failed to do that so far and I’ve tried to explain the belief on geocentrism.
    I’ll briefly give you evidence of God. The Earthly existence of Jesus Christ is historically verifiable- the Jewish historian Josephus writes about him briefly and his “rap sheet” is a matter of Roman record as well. He was here. His death was witnessed by thousands. His appearance after his death was witnessed by hundreds. Many of these witnesses allowed themselves to be killed rather than recant their claims that Jesus was the Messiah and had risen from the dead. One person may die for a lie. But, with the exception of Judas (suicide) and John (exiled until he died of natural causes) every disciple was killed- usually quite brutally- without recanting.

    Of course God can show you the error of your ways. The point is that God wants you to CHOOSE Him, not beat you over the head with proof until you grudgingly give in. A God that made us in his own image would not create automatons. You call free will a cop out, but choosing God then serving Him out of gratitude for what He has done is the design. This dovetails nicely with your mention of Jesus’ Sermon On the Mount. While the first 5 books of the Old Testament do not outlaw slavery or the mistreatment of women, it radically (for the time) changes how they are both approached. In doing so God created a path for the eventual dissolvement of slavery and equal rights for women- the beginning of the end if you will. God knew that the immediate abolition of slavery and the equal rights of women would create infinitely more bloodshed than it would by fostering change from within. The people were not ready for it. The American Civil War was fought because an agrarian society was unable to come to grips with multigenarational slavery and the intended destruction of the only way of life they knew- and hundreds of thousands died as a result. Slavery is inherently wrong. God didn’t want it. But the idea to do away with it had to be as a result of humankinds spritual evolution and the fundamental understanding that all people were created by God and loved equally. Read the New Testament epistle Philemon. Man was still enslaving man thousands of years later, yet Paul was able to convince the slave owning Christian Philemon that Onesimus was a brother in Christ.

  • 391. tinman  |  March 21, 2011 at 2:12 pm

    Ubi-
    I’m “confusing faith with confidence”? You are giving me a series of non coralative events that you use as evidence that another event will occur. Why do you not allow me to do likewise? I’ve jumped in my car, confident that the battery was good and the fuel level was good only to find that the car didn’t start- a bad alternator. I’ve flushed the toilet, then walked over to the shower only to have it not turn on- hard water buildup at the head. Yet I’m sure when you woke up that day you didn’t preface every plan by saying “IF my car starts” or “IF the shower works,” so your belief transcended confidence- it was faith. There are many that live their lives saying “IF God exists.” They are the ones that, by their hypocritic lifestyle make it much more difficult to reach out to those that haven’t heard the gospel. These people act one way at church, another everywhere else. Their desire should be to live a life that proves their belief in God by their thoughts and actions- a life of faith.

    “societies with effective rule systems win out over those with rules that don’t work as well….” and
    “religous fanaticism does divide us…….”
    You must admit that society functioned better in America when Christian values were recognized as the standard. The problem with atheistic morals are that they can be situationally dependent. Without a clear cut definition of right and wrong (provided by the bible) anything can be rationalized. Stealing is wrong- whether i do it to provide for my starving family or simply because i feel entitled to a big screen tv.
    If societies with effective rule systems win out over those that don’t how did the assyrians conquer the israelites, or the barbarians overwhelm the romans, or the nazis overwhelm the rest of europe? If by “effective” you mean “the strongest tribe” I’ll have to agree. Historically the biggest bully on the block wins regardless of what their morals are. The world has been lucky (until recently) that, for the most part, Judao-Christian ethics have governed the United States. As more and more turn their backs on their faith this is beginning to change.

    I also agree that religious fanaticisms divides us- those that kill for their faith destroy any opportunities to win others. I won’t kill for my faith- only die for it. But hopefully not for a long, long time. :)

  • 392. cag  |  March 21, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    Tinman, what part of “In the beginning god created the heaven and the earth” do you not understand. The greater and lesser light (sun and moon) as well as all the stars were created on the fourth day, according to your fantasy book.

    Josephus wasn’t even born when your fantasy hero died. His records are hearsay as there were no accounts written down during the “lifetime” of your jesus.

    Over 900 died believing in Jim Jones. Dying for a lie is nothing new. Whacked beliefs result in Heaven’s Gate. People dying for what others see as stupid reasons are not proof of anything except stupidity. David Koresh was no more holy than any other human, but he was more deluded than most.

    While the first 5 books of the Old Testament do not outlaw slavery or the mistreatment of women, it radically (for the time) changes how they are both approached. In doing so God created a path for the eventual dissolvement of slavery and equal rights for women- the beginning of the end if you will.

    So the old fictitious fool could not have avoided all the pain, horror and inhumanity? How gormless is that?

    I’ll let you in on a secret, there is no pea under the shell you chose. Stop making excuses for your imaginary friend.
    I have no reason to believe that the undetectable is anything other than imaginary. Note that undetected (as yet) is not the same as undetectable.

    I await evidence of any god. There have been over 2000 gods created by the mind of humans. What these gods have in common is they don’t exist, but humans have been gullible enough to believe in them. Had you been born in some other part of the world, the lies you would cleave to would postulate a different god.

  • 393. Ubi Dubium  |  March 22, 2011 at 1:17 pm

    You are giving me a series of non coralative events that you use as evidence that another event will occur.

    .
    Wait, what? Are you saying that “my car has started reliably over the past months” is unconnected to “my car will probably start this morning? What kind of reasoning is that?

    Yet I’m sure when you woke up that day you didn’t preface every plan by saying “IF my car starts”

    Actually my car is rather old, and having a backup plan in that case is often in the back of my mind. I have a high confidence level, not “Faith”.

    There are many that live their lives saying “IF God exists.” They are the ones that, by their hypocritic lifestyle…

    Which is why Pascal’s Wager is such a weak argument. No use pretending to believe in something you dont, just in case.

    You must admit that society functioned better in America when Christian values were recognized as the standard.

    You mean back when slavery was legal, when discrimination against women and minorities was institutionalized, when it was OK to steal land from the natives and to beat schoolchildren? Heck No!! All of those things are specifically allowed and even encouraged by your ancient book. No frikkin way did society function better in some imagined “good old days”. As far as morality goes, our country now is the best it’s ever been. Not that there isn’t still room for improvement.

    If societies with effective rule systems win out over those that don’t how did the assyrians conquer the israelites…

    Because the Assyrians had a more effective system. Your precious Israelites weren’t the only ones with a strong moral code and societal rules, you know.

    I won’t kill for my faith- only die for it.,

    Really. Even if you deeply and sincerely thought you had received a message from god telling you to kill someone? You would trust your own moral judgment over god’s? And would you stand by and do nothing while others killed for your faith? Would you make heroes out of those who have? How many people did Joshua supposedly kill at god’s command? How about Gideon or Samson? Are they heroes or war criminals?

  • 394. H, K  |  April 2, 2011 at 2:47 am

    I’m sorry, my dear. I was with you until you started talking. You sound just as ignorant as the people you’re criticizing. Please stop making generalizations. Vitriol is not helpful, either. Love and understanding should perhaps be practiced, not just preached. I want to respect young, freethinking women, being one of them. The lack of creative arguments and overall bludgeoning I found in your article completely disillusioned me. Perhaps I will convert to Catholicism, or a more fundamentalist denomination… Who needs nuanced, progressive thinkers when we can be hopelessly black and white? (“we” in this case being you…) Read some philosophy next time, and don’t just parrot a bunch of grandiose cliched ideas. Just a thought…

  • 395. Robin  |  July 12, 2011 at 2:09 am

    Why atheists are more Christian than fundamentalists:

    1. They don’t ignore the fundamental part of the Bible. Love others and treat others the way you want to be treated. That’s the golden rule that Jesus taught.
    2. They are more like the good Samaritan. Unlike the priest and Levite that Jesus mentioned in the story, who passed the innocent man by, the Samaritan (likely to be a pagan) helped that man out.
    3. The pastor for the church I go to mentioned in one of his sermons that we have been given the wrong idea on what eternal life is. He commented that we have heard so many translations that use the word everlasting, that makes things into the idea of life after death. This pastor said that we have a life right here and now.
    4. In the Bible, Jesus is asked which ten commandments are more important, and the ones he mentions are NOT the ones about worship. Fundamentalists choose not to kill, steal, or lie (although a lot of them probably do tell nothing but lies) because these are the ten commandments. Atheists obey many of these rules because they understand why you shouldn’t.
    5. Atheists actually take care of God’s creation (whether they believe it’s His creation or not).
    6. Although I can’t completely make this generalization, most atheists seem to be against wars, especially over religion. There are wars fought in the Bible, but all of those wars go against one of the ten commandments, Thou shalt not kill.
    7. Many fundamentalists use Christianity as a way of getting money for themselves. They capitalize on it. Atheists don’t.
    8. I don’t have any sources backing me up, but I’ve seen more atheists donating to charities than I’ve seen fundamentalists. I’ve seen a lot of Christian charities, but these were not from fundamentalists.
    9. Atheists think of the different sects of Christianity as one and the same. Fundamentalists continue to for their own or are part of certain sects that go against others.
    10. Atheists don’t listen to or fear the false prophets that the Bible warns us about.
    11. Atheists don’t claim to have more religious authority than anyone else. Some of them claim to know more about the universe, but they don’t claim to be a worker for God.
    12. Although atheists choose not to believe in any God at all, they also choose not to believe in one who is so hateful.

  • 396. Ubi Dubium  |  July 12, 2011 at 9:45 am

    Very nice, Robin. Well said.

  • 397. Michael Steven Martin  |  July 19, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    I claim atheists are able to be more moral than religious people because we are able to be good for the sake of being good. When you have an authoritarian figure TELLING you what’s good, and that you MUST be good (lest you be punished) then that can hardly be considered “moral.” It’s like when a parent *forces* a child to say “I’m sorry.” Forcing someone is NOT the way to get genuine, meaningful results. Only when YOU are the one deciding your actions (and not living a life based on fearful submission) can you be truly moral.

  • 398. Nigerian Youth Forum  |  July 26, 2011 at 11:23 am

    Can’t believe this conversation is still happening… almost 2 years later.

  • 399. Michelle Araujo Silva  |  July 31, 2011 at 12:44 am

    Excellent article!

    >>”I drive the speed limit through town because I don’t want a ticket. I understand that there are consequences for my actions, and that I am personally responsible for everything I do.”

    If I knew how to drive, I would drive the speed limit because I wouldn’t want to lose control of the car and wind up hitting another car or running over a person or hitting against a tree or a lamp post where I could be badly injured. If one of those things happens because I was at high speed with my car getting a ticket would be the least of my worries (I would never forgive myself for hurting or killing someone because I was acting all stupid by recklessly driving a car)

  • 400. Norma Griblin  |  November 15, 2011 at 11:12 pm

    Cali,Great show, I’m a big fan. However, a hospital in Scotland is a Scottish Hospital’

  • 401. utedzz  |  January 3, 2012 at 12:12 pm

    wow … you make way too much sense … blasphemy !!!!

  • 402. Aleysha  |  February 11, 2012 at 6:35 pm

    Your arguments are strong except for the part when you said that you are entitled to what you decide to do with your body. Which means your body is rightfully yours and only you can control it.

    For just one minute, try to stop your beating heart while still being alive. Can you?

    Or sneeze with your eyes open.

    You can say it’s biologically impossible and clearly your body is confined to what science says. Doesnt really add up to your conviction, does it?

  • 403. ubi dubium  |  February 13, 2012 at 6:40 pm

    Aleysha,

    How does that have anything to do with whether we are entitled to make our own decisions? Because you can’t sneeze with your eyes open, that means somebody else has the right to make your reproductive and end-of-life decisions for you, without your consent? What? That makes no sense at all.

  • 404. William  |  March 14, 2012 at 12:14 pm

    “No god tells me to hate people who look different than me,”

    No god tells you to hate theists either, but you would make Chairman Mao and Stalin proud.

  • 405. cag  |  March 14, 2012 at 12:54 pm

    Aleysha, the sneezing with eyes open is another urban legend. Please check your facts before posting. Oh, sorry, if you’re a christian facts don’t mean anything to you, only myths.

    William, we don’t hate theists, it is a curable disease. We do, to varying degrees, detest theism. We laugh at it at times, we challenge theism, we point out its absurdity, we deplore the crimes committed by religions. We agonize when more child rapes are exposed. We are astounded that anyone could be so gullible. It is a mind poison that stifles the infected. Knowledge and critical thinking are the cure.

    Mao and Stalin were communists. Their actions were due to their political ideology not their opinions about gods.

  • 406. ubi dubium  |  March 14, 2012 at 1:58 pm

    “No god tells you to hate theists either, but you would make Chairman Mao and Stalin proud”

    Wow, William, you managed to get a strawman attack, and an ad hominem both in one short sentence. That takes some doing!

  • 407. godsradicaldaughter  |  June 10, 2012 at 10:04 pm

    Fine. Let’s say that atheists are so called moral than other religions. But my God is not a God of condemnation, he does NOT love me more or less if I break rules from the bible or am a morally unrighteous person. Christianity is not about critea, ticking off boxes- where only the ones with the most ticks can enter heaven. God is love- he has infinite grace for those who believe in him and gives us the kingdom of heaven. It’s not about how righteous or moral we are, because although a human being says they’re moral- i.e you, they’re dirty and empty inside because of this sinful, fallen world. Seek Jesus, he will give you rest and peace

  • 408. ubi dubium  |  June 11, 2012 at 8:08 am

    That didn’t make any sense.

    But my God is not a God of condemnation, he does NOT love me more or less if I break rules from the bible or am a morally unrighteous person.

    No, he only loves you less if you find the claims of one specific religion unpersuasive. Then you are condemned forever.

    Christianity is not about critea, ticking off boxes- where only the ones with the most ticks can enter heaven.

    As long as you have ticked off the “believe the following absurdities” boxes. Nothing else you do apparently matters.

    God is love- he has infinite grace for those who believe in him and gives us the kingdom of heaven.

    I read your book, twice, and I didn’t see grace. I saw lots of murder and genocide and smiting. I saw people saying there would be grace, but I didn’t see any actual grace in there. Are you sure you were reading the bible, and not one of those “Chicken soup for the soul” books?

    It’s not about how righteous or moral we are, because although a human being says they’re moral- i.e you, they’re dirty and empty inside because of this sinful, fallen world.

    A perfect god makes beings that are imperfect, then punishes them for being exactly the way he made them. Really.

    Seek Jesus, he will give you rest and peace

    I read where he said he didn’t come to bring peace, but a sword. I really don’t think we’re reading the same bible here.

  • 409. MINIMALHISM  |  June 11, 2012 at 12:06 pm

    “Seek Jesus, he will give you rest and peace.”

    I did that. It’s how I became atheist. The best thing I ever did was to honestly search for a god that wasn’t there. The joy of not finding him was immense and life changing. I’ve been better for it ever since. I encourage ALL theists to keep reading your holy books and praying until the day you find out it’s all in your head. Peace.

  • 410. Cindy  |  November 15, 2012 at 3:55 pm

    There is nothing wrong with religion per say it is the fanaticism, that can run into problems , I was a Christian for many years, as I am no longer I do understand the value in many “revealed religions”, they are not the absolute truth, GOD IS, One Deist, thanks

  • 411. cag  |  November 16, 2012 at 1:38 pm

    #410, Cindy

    There is nothing wrong with religion per say(sic)

    So there is noting wrong with vilifying people who do not believe in imaginary beings? There is nothing wrong with the vilification of people who refuse to pay extortion money to the religious mafia for an uncollectable offer? There is nothing wrong with lying to people? There is nothing wrong with threatening people with eternal punishment for artificially crafted “sins”? There is nothing wrong with announcing from the pulpit that some humans are lesser than others? The list is endless, and accepting religion as benign or advantageous is a crime against humanity.

    Stop polluting this site with assertions for which you have no proof, and don’t use words you do not understand (per se, not per say).

  • 413. Nandhini  |  December 7, 2012 at 2:33 am

    @ Neece

    An awesome thought !! Totally agree with u..
    and proud to be an atheist too !! I read this somewhere,
    and felt good. It goes like this :
    “There is no past life, and there are no past life sins. Anything
    that doesnt have a proof is just a theory. Hence believe in a
    theory that gives you happiness and peace and reject those that
    dont”. True, loved it. But people really fight for ‘something’ that
    never existed. People fight for Gods that are just theories !! Ridiculous !! :D

    Nandhini

  • 414. cag  |  December 7, 2012 at 1:43 pm

    Nandhini # 413
    Remember that there are different definitions for theory. Take special notice of

    Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word “theory” in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.

    As you are using it, theory is not the same as, for instance, Theory of Evolution. Do not give the ignorant delusionals any fuel for their irrational beliefs.

  • 415. Stefan ilievski  |  December 18, 2012 at 10:46 am

    Christians I ask you this: if god told you to kill your son, is it moral? If he said sacrifice him or go to hell? I’d gladly tell him to go fuck himself. Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.

  • 416. Goku  |  February 25, 2013 at 3:24 pm

    The chatholic church does not believ that people should hate gay people. Or hate anyone. And neither is god is stating this. God love all his children equally. You may be hard to believe but god loves satian as much as he loves someone as the pope. So the statement “god hates gay people is total bull”. Though the chatholic church has the stance that we should hate anyone for what they are like, we don’t support or agree in things like homosexual behavior. Also although hitler was stated to be a christen, he was never really a Christian in actions and words. For one thing he went against one of the most series important cammondment in Christian beleafs thou shall not commite murder. So the argument with using hitler is a poor way to argue against the Christian faith. And like anything there a whole ton of bad Christian out there that misread the bible. Which is common throughout time since the bible is hard to understand and easy to misinterpret, epesially the old testament. So just because you have read the bible it doesn’t mean you know what it’s talking about.

  • 417. Goku  |  February 25, 2013 at 3:30 pm

    Sorry it should have said the church says we should not hate gay people

  • 418. Goku  |  February 25, 2013 at 3:33 pm

    We should not hate gay people sorry for the the auto correct

  • 419. MINIMALHISM  |  February 25, 2013 at 3:46 pm

    To be clear, “God/god/gods” don’t hate gays or anyone; gods do not exist. Religion and holy books are not real, they are lies. The debate is over. Reason has won.

  • 420. Goku  |  February 25, 2013 at 9:34 pm

    The debate is not over. Also you have not said anything to be considered to be even a good argument. Stating god does not exist does not prove god is non existant. You have no points why god is not real.

  • 421. ubi dubium  |  February 26, 2013 at 1:00 am

    “You have no points why god is not real.”
    We don’t need any. Theists have failed to make a conclusive case for a god. So we don’t believe there is one.

    If you get to start your argument with the assumption that your god is real, then we get to do the same thing with Krishna, Zeus, Ra, Thor, the Tooth Fairy, the Thetans and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. You don’t get any special privilege for your ideas just because you are a member of a large and deeply-entrenched religious group.

  • 422. Goku  |  February 26, 2013 at 3:26 am

    There tons of good arguments to prove of gods existence. You said there is none like I said before you are incorrect. The fact you never seen any good proofs is because your not looking for them. Or ignoring them. The biggest problem with atheist. Is that they don’t keep an open head to the idea of god. You don’t go out find the truth you look to support and attack the chatholic faith. That fact that you have shown or tried to give reasons for your beliefs is that don’t know.

  • 423. Goku  |  February 26, 2013 at 3:28 am

    Not shown any proofs

  • 424. Goku  |  February 26, 2013 at 3:32 am

    Also you state you don’t believe cause there is no proofs your wrong. You don’t believe in god because you don’t want to.

  • 425. ubi dubium  |  February 26, 2013 at 8:17 am

    Arguments will never prove a god’s existence, because that’s not the way you verify things in the real world. Either one or more gods exist or no god exists. There is a correct answer to this question, If your discussion is not grounded in reality you can make arguments until you are blue in the face and it won’t get you any closer to the correct answer. What you want the answer to be doesn’t change what the answer actually is.

    We are not looking for arguments or “proofs”. They are pointless. We are looking for evidence. Real solid physical evidence.

    The stars rearranging to spell “Hi there, this is God!”, that would be a start. Or how about all those big claims about prayer in the bible actually working? (Have you moved any mountains lately? Have all those people praying for world peace actually gotten world peace?) Or everybody in the world that claims to speak for god suddenly coming to full agreement on what god wants. Or a KJV bible sprouting from the tree in my front yard.

    Or here’s a really easy one. I have a pass phrase, that I have never told anyone or written down. I’ve said it in my head many times, and if your omniscient god exists he knows what it is. And if he communicates with you he can tell you what it is. If your next reply starts with this phrase, you will have my undivided attention, and I’ll take what you say seriously. If it doesn’t, it’s clear that you are just another sheep who has caught a bad case of the mind virus, religion.

    I don’t believe in your god because I actually think that your god is a human invention. I don’t want “to not believe in god” or “to believe in god”. What I want is the correct answer to the question of whether there is a god. Unless you cough up some evidence I have no reason think you have the correct answer.

  • 426. MINIMALHISM  |  February 26, 2013 at 12:27 pm

    “There tons of good arguments to prove of gods existence. You said there is none like I said before you are incorrect….”

    That reply does all the work for us. Theists dig their own irrational, ill-informed holes while we stand by and watch. Viva atheism!

  • 427. Goku  |  February 26, 2013 at 7:56 pm

    the same as before there are lots of evidence of gods existence. Which you caim doese not exist. For example, the written documents of a man by the name of jesus christ living in Jerusalem, in the same time period of the events of bible takes place. Of course that evidence alone cannot PROVE gods existence. This just proves of the existence of a man called Jesus Christ. Ok now lets now try to see if he truly was god. In one part of the christian bible Jesus spoke to his disciples that he would be crucified, and then went to say that 3 days after he would be raised from the dead. The day came and he was truly crucified and died. And when the third day came he truly came back from the dead. Now one claim some atheist have used to try to disproved this was that Jesus had consumed a drug which would put him into an death like state. After the I heard this theory I spent time thinking about it and realized this theory doesn’t hold on. Jesus at the moments of his death was whipped, force to wear a crown of thorns then forced to carry a large wooden cross to where he would be crucified. He was then nailed to the cross with his hands and feet. 6 hours later he died. Before removing him from the cross they stabbed him in the heart to confirm his death. So this drug argument does not hold. Because even if he was drugged, he would have died because of the great amount of blood loss and the stabbing in the heart. Now the other argument is that the disciples lied about the resurrection. The people response to the disciples claims. They continuously tortured them, and they only thing that could save themselves from this intense torture, was to reveal that they had lied about these events. Did they, no and most of the disciples was tortured until they were dead. So would you as one of these disciples in case that it was a complete scam to gain faim and worship continue to hold onto a lie even if it meant you a sure slow lasting painful death. It does not seem reasonable. These deciples truly believed that Jesus Christ was the son of god. And they would have dismissed their faith, if what Jesus had told them did not actually happened. Also if Jesus never did came back from the dead, the catholic church would never NEVER would have been established.

  • 428. Goku  |  February 26, 2013 at 8:27 pm

    MINIMALHISM you state we are ill informed, well Im sorry but I think you its the other way around. I am not blindly stating that god exists i have spent a lot of time thinking about this. And continue to do so.

  • 429. ubi dubium  |  February 26, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    Goku, all of the stuff you just talked about assumes that the stories in your bible are actually accounts of real events. None of your gospels was written at the time Jesus lived, and none of the people who were actually writing at the time he supposedly lived mentions him at all. You have second, third or fourth-hand accounts written many years after the fact by people who had never met “Jesus” but who were trying to start a new religion. They had agendas, but they didn’t have first-hand knowledge. Paul, for instance, never talks about any of the details of Jesus’s life, and considering that he was writing quite a while before the gospels were written, and was supposedly working directly with apostles, I find that more than a little suspicious.

    And if you compare the books, a lot of the details don’t line up. (Try comparing the four crucifixion stories and see if you can figure out one narrative that corresponds with all the details of all of them.) You have two completely different birth stories, each of which are right in line with the typical miraculous birth stories of greek demi-gods. You have talk of judgment after death, which is absent from the OT, but is the overwhelming theme of Egyptian mythology. You have the Gnostic idea of being saved through obtaining some special secret knowledge or belief. The Zoroastrian conflict between good and evil. Sacred meals from the worship of Mithras. Wine as a holy symbol from the worship of Dionysus. The word “christ” is not Jewish, it’s Greek. And the image of the “dying and resurrecting god” is pervasive in most western cultures (Osiris, Odin, Heracles. Orpheus and The Horned One for a start). Your gospels read like an amalgam of mythological stories from many cultures inside the Roman sphere of influence, not like an account of historical events.

    Maybe there was a wandering apocalytic preacher in Judaea at that time, who was executed for being a rabble-rouser. (Probably more than one!) But by the time all those later writers got through spinning their stories about him, there’s not any good way to sort out what that preacher might have really said, from what all those other guys remembered that some other guy who knew an apostle SAID he said, and then embellished to make it sound more convincing.

    Plus, of course, we don’t have original manuscripts of any of it, which is an entirely different issue.

  • 430. Bruce  |  February 27, 2013 at 1:18 am

    Religion poisons everything good. The more science advances, the less relevant religion is. Don’t hurt one another. That is all the “religion” a person needs. Most people had “imaginary friends” as children. Why do you need them as an adult? You have life, here and now. Why waste your time, pining for a life in the Hereafter so you can spend eternity with the Big Guy in the Sky? It’s a myth, a fairy tale, and the biggest lie that ever conned humanity.

  • 431. Bruce  |  February 28, 2013 at 1:34 am

    A 15 year old girl has been sentenced to 100 lashes in the strict Islamic country of the Maldives. Her crime? She was repeatedly, sexually abused by her stepfather. She even bore a child by the stepfather which he killed and buried.

    Islam is such a just, compassionate, and peaceful religion, isn’t it?

    Founded by a pedophile. Promoted by the evil. Followed by the ignorant.

  • 432. Goku  |  February 28, 2013 at 3:31 pm

    Bruce, I disagree to the statement religion poisons goods. What truly turns people from good is selfishness. Not a religions like the Christianity. By stating Christianity is evil, by doing so you are stating that the christianity belief that the act of murder is evil, is evil and that murder is alright. And other things like greed you have stated is a good thing. I am not saying that you believe that things like hatred lust greed are good. But stating that christianity as evil, was stating that message. Your statement about the girl in the muslim country is not a good argument or story to support the idea that the Muslim faith is evil. You can state that the father of this girl was evil but not the faith. Of course if you have mention that the girl had to be punished because that the Koran book law stated that. Though do not state i am supporter of the Islam faith. What I know of the Islam religion it gets really corrupt and evil.

  • 433. ubi dubium  |  February 28, 2013 at 4:20 pm

    “By stating Christianity is evil, by doing so you are stating that the christianity belief that the act of murder is evil, is evil and that murder is alright”

    Goku, that’s ridiculous, and you should know that. I am not saying that every value that christianity teaches is incorrect. Most of those values pre-date your religion anyway, and your religion is just taking undue credit for them. But the basic premise of christianity is not “love thy neighbor” it’s “obey god”. And since no one actually knows directly what this god wants, it becomes “obey, without question, the men who claim to speak for god”. And that’s a very dangerous thing indeed.

  • 434. Bruce  |  March 1, 2013 at 1:31 am

    Goku:

    Let me clarify, if I may.

    ALL religion poison every thing. good.

    From ancient to modern times, religion has been the obstacle and impediment to human advancement. Except for my comment at 431, I don’t believe I have specified any particular religion, but since you have brought it to the discussion, let me state, Islam is one of the most evil aberrations of what constitutes everything anathema to modern, human progress. Following, a distant second, for refusal to accept anything that contradicts their Bible, would be Fundamentalist Christians.

    Science flew man to the moon. Radical Islam flew planes into the Pentagon and the Twin Towers. If that’s not evil, I don’t know what is.

    Anyone who says they speak for God is a liar and a con artist. Anyone who believes and follows him, is a fool.

    By the way, believe what you will, that is your prerogative, but I say this with absolute certainty, the God of the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims, is a complete monstrosity.

    And He doesn’t even exist. Except in the minds of the men who created Him, for the satisfaction of their lust for power and control over others.

  • 435. Goku  |  March 1, 2013 at 3:43 pm

    To inform you we do know what god wants. He wants that we follow his cammondments and love him. Your statement that god wants us just to obey him is a more closer to a viewpoint the Islam faith. Which the believe we are slaves to gods will. The chatholic believe is that we are gods childrens and the commandments that god commands were love thy neighbor, thou shall not murder etc.

  • 436. MINIMALHISM  |  March 1, 2013 at 4:00 pm

    “love thy neighbor, thou shall not murder”

    The Bible is FULL of examples of Yaweh instructing and commanding his followers to kill and steal. He clearly favors some people over others, and has no problem with his chosen people killing and obliterating those he doesn’t like. Have you not read the Bible?

  • 437. Bruce  |  March 1, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    Let me be clear and succinct.

    There is no God, just as there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, and no Tooth Fairy.

    Amazing how most children give up their childhood fairy tales by the age of 9 or 10. yet are perfectly willing to accept the insidious and malevolent fantasy of religion and all the accompanying nonsense it entails.

    The Bible, the Quran, and all such ancient religious texts are just so much bullshit, written for a more primitive time, with a more ignorant audience.

    People who believe in those texts, are not just fools, but delusional fools, afraid of the dark, afraid of death, afraid of their own mortality and that this life is all there is..They won’t enjoy the life they have, but focus on some imaginary paradise after death.

    ALL religion is crap, and man-made crap at that. Instituted by the few, to hold power over the many.

    Jesus is dead, and he ain’t comin’ back. For you Christians, get over it.

    Since evolution is currently accepted as the most logical of the answers to our beginnings, it is also logical to accept the point that people who follow the fairy tales of religion have slipped a rung or two on the evolutionary ladder.

    And finally, once again, now and forever – THERE IS NO God!

    P.S.:
    Goku, get spell check. You really need it!

  • 438. blahblahblah  |  March 31, 2013 at 5:42 pm

    lol why would any god give free will then say you can’t do these things. why would life be a test? why would we have no proof of god at all? why would even the most perfectly religious people have bad things happen to them? i can go on for ages. but most importantly, why is religion so vague? hardly any questions are ever answered in a straight forward manner. most arguments FOR religion are this: “you can’t prove it wrong, so it must be true.” …ridiculous.

  • 439. blahblahblah  |  March 31, 2013 at 5:45 pm

    @ubi, wow. very well said.

  • 440. Hashib Shaikh  |  April 8, 2013 at 3:51 pm

    Morality is the gauge by which we determine what is acceptable or not acceptable. To consider more actions as acceptable is to lower moral standards (i.e. someone who sees nothing wrong with murder would have lower moral standards and a higher level of tolerance). Therefore your “tolerance” can only show a lack of moral standards. This article is one big incredibly illogical argument that, since are not “forced” by any Deity to abide by any rules (in other words you have lower moral standards), you are somehow morally superior.
    I am disappointed to say the least. Please sort out the contradiction that lower moral standards which lead to higher tolerance are higher moral standards. Perhaps then you will understand the contradiction that higher morals which lead to lower tolerance are lower morals.

  • 441. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 11:45 am

    Let’s consider some atheist utopia’s and also consider their morality. Stalin’s Russia (60 million killed – current estimate). Mao Tse Tung’s China (70 million killed – current estimate) Pol Pot’s Cambodia (6 million – current estimate) You can call Hitler a Christian (hardly but he did have an interest in the occult) but he was a huge fan of Nietzsche (an Darwin). This is a matter of historical fact. Based on these facts forgive me if I don’t acquiesce to the moral superiority of atheism. In atheism there is no reason to be moral or even define morality. People have no more value than mosquitoes, geese or any other animal and are doomed to die sooner or later so what they do until they die is irrelevant. Do we care what a mosquito does before it dies ? As long as it doesn’t bite me is all good. That is the morality of atheism.

  • 442. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    NG,

    Not that old stuff again. None of the regimes you mentioned were “atheist regimes”. Hitler (and you’ve Godwinned the thread now, so you lose) was definitley Catholic, and used the existing religiosity of the Germans to help him manipulate them into doing what he wanted. The other totalitarian regimes you mentioned tried to replace the religions that the population already had with a new religion of “nationalism”. Unquestioning loyalty to religion was replaced with unquestioning loyalty to the State. Not one of these leaders proposed that people should “think for themselves” or “question authority”.

    The closest we have to “atheist utopia”? Sweden. Sweden has a very high standard of living, strong social safety nets, good education, good healthcare, low crime, low teen pregnancy, freedom of speech, and only one-fifth of the people believe in a god. That’s an example to follow.

    (The rest of your post was equally uninformed rubbish, so I’m not even going to address it. If you’re going to attack us, understand us first and attack us for what we actually are, and not the strawman your pastor told you about.)

  • 443. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 1:11 pm

    lol. Both Stalin and Mao, Pol Pot tried to eradicate religion and did not believe in God. How is that not atheist ? Your enhanced definition of atheist as questioning authority etc. may fly in a room full of atheists but in the free market of intellectual discussion. A question about Sweden. Does freedom of religion exist there ? Not really the atheist utopia Dawkins might desire, all the Christians haven’t been sent to death camps yet. As for my uniformed rubbish, I challenge all readers to investigate whether or not Hitler gave copies of Nietzsche’s writings to both Stalin and Mussolini. The connection to Hitler’s eugenics and social darwinism are so obvious I don’t blame you for not addressing them. Not a winning scenario for you. As for the value of human life, if people are just animals living on a doomed planet (heat death of the universe if nothing else) what is the atheistic foundation for assigning them greater worth than the animals we kill and eat for food ? Please inform me about who you actually are. I’m genuinely curious.

  • 444. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 1:24 pm

    “Please inform me about who you actually are. I’m genuinely curious.”

    No you’re not. You’re genuinely interested in preaching. If you were curious you would have asked the question first and listened to the answer before going off into the rest of your sermon.

    And Sweden does have freedom of religion. Most Swedes just don’t bother with religion anymore. I’ve never heard of anyone in the atheist movement who wants anybody sent to death camps. I don’t want to kill religion, I want it to just fade out because people realize that they don’t need it anymore.

  • 445. cag  |  May 10, 2013 at 1:43 pm

    This is a test. I have tried 3 times to submit my comment but nothing shows up. Perhaps there is a filter or the href is creating an error. If this posts I will resubmit my comment (for the 4th time) without the href to see if that works.

  • 446. cag  |  May 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm

    I posted this but it appears that it was lost somewhere. Apologies if it shows up twice. I have removed the href and just left the link. Some of this has already been covered by Ubi.

    NG, you are conflating communism with atheism. Atheists are all over the political spectrum. As an example, Sweden has a high proportion of atheists, but is known for its egalitarian approach to social issues, without human bloodshed.

    Claims that Darwin influenced Hitler come from religious sources, not neutral historians. Take a look at http://home.uchicago.edu/~rjr6/articles/Was%20Hitler%20a%20Darwinian.pdf for an academic rather than an apologetics conclusion.

    From the above link bottom of page 53:

    In order to sustain the thesis that Hitler was a Darwinian one would have to ignore all the explicit statements of Hitler rejecting any theory like Darwin’s and draw fanciful implications from vague words, errant phrases, and ambiguous sentences, neglecting altogether more straight-forward, contextual
    interpretations of such utterances. Only the ideologically blinded would still try to sustain the thesis in the face of the contrary , manifest evidence. Yet, as I suggested at the beginning of this essay, there is an obvious sense in which my own claims must be moot. Even if Hitler could recite the Origin of Species by heart and referred to Darwin as his scientific hero, that would not have the slightest bearing on the validity of Darwinian theory or the moral
    standing of its author. The only reasonable answer to the question that gives this essay its title is a very loud and unequivocal No!

    If your actions are based on following the commands of an imaginary power rather than acting without coercion to reduce harm and improve the human condition then that comes from obedience not morality. This life is of value to us because there is no afterlife. This inspires most atheists to make the best of the only life we have. Religion does not make a human more moral. If it did, we would not have to have prison chaplains or confessionals. Not all christians are good people, not all atheists are good people. That’s life.

    One of the things I do is to help Seniors in the complex where I live to better understand or fix their computers. For payment I ask them to make a donation to the British Columbia Children’s Hospital. I have no children of my own, but that does not stop me from wanting to make the lives of other children better. I do not pray to some sky fairy to make them better, I support humans who have studied medicine, not the bible, who can make them better in the only life they will ever have.

    The people who misinformed you about atheism have a financial interest in keeping you from knowing the truth. What else have they lied to you about?

  • 447. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 1:50 pm

    Based on the venom of your replies I would estimate it wouldn’t take much before you advocated things like charging parents with child abuse for teaching their children their religious beliefs (Richard Darkins), preferring to eradicate religion instead of rape if he had a choice (Sam Harris), even if you aren’t quite at the death camp stage of your campaign. I’m pretty sure you are familiar with the anti-christian rhetoric of the” four horsemen of atheism” It always astounds me that atheists, who in general adhere to some type of relative ethics and subjective values, feel free to criticize value systems (such as Christianity) that do not agree with their own. If there is no absolute right or wrong, what does it matter what people believe. Even worse, material determinists like Stephen Hawking believe genetics determine behaviour and belief yet publish books in order to change peoples minds and sway opinions. Now that’s funny. More consistent atheist thinkers have a more accurate view of atheist morality.

    Bertrand Russell believed that atheists have no choice but to build their lives upon “the firm foundation of unyielding despair.”

    Jean Paul Sartre denied that there are any objective values or meaning to life to be discovered. These are rational beliefs extending from the assumption of no God. I admire these atheist thinkers for their courage and rationality. Although I disagree with their foundational assumption, there is no arguing their conclusions. Assuming no eternal accountability and no absolute morality, it is not surprising that the amoral are often perpetrators of atrocities. Whatever helps them achieve their ends.
    Although many atrocities have been committed in the name of Christianity (a fraction of the humanist body count but still) none of the actions were consistent with the new testament teachings of the Bible. I see no inconsistency between the fundamental beliefs of atheism and the atrocities committed by adherents to that belief system. (Dare I say religion ?)

  • 448. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    In reply to 447. I enjoyed the attitude of your post. Much less confrontational. I appreciate that you have my best interests at heart. Now correct me if I am wrong but Hilter was out to establish the master race was he not ? Part of his process was to sterilize and/or kill those who he deemed unworthy to procreate was it not ? This sounds a lot like artificial selection, an idea closely related to natural selection accept madmen like Hitler deciding what traits/races were to selected for and/or against. Obviously this has no connection to Darwinism. My mistake.

    I would like to say for the record that I don’t think that atheists can’t act morally. Indeed I know many atheist people who live “good” lives, they adhere to social norms, they don’t let their dog poop on your lawn, that sort of thing. My assertion is more that they have no absolute reason for acting morally. There is no foundation for it. Let’s assume on day Joe the atheist, feels you have slighted him for not inviting him to your BBQ party. He’s always been a good neighbour, why should he be excluded ? Joe, feeling passive aggressive, feeds his Saint Bernard hamburger laced with Exlax and promptly walks him by your yard in the dark until he deposits the ultimate insult on your lawn. Were Joe’s actions wrong ? Impossible to tell without an absolute frame of reference ? Was their anything in his moral code that prohibited some behaviour ? As his moral code is largely a product of person preference, it’s edicts could be expected to be somewhat flexible and/or malleable. What flexibility would be there in cases of much more intense provocations ? On what basis would any “lines be drawn” morally speaking ? If Joe was feeling particularly upset perhaps he would park a truck full of fertilizer and diesel fuel outside your house and watch your house get blown off the side hill with your propane BBQ and patio furniture. Where’s the line and why draw it there ? (What moral standard will you use that will be seen as binding on Joe’s behaviour ?)

  • 449. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 2:27 pm

    There’s been no venom in my replies. I disagree with you and think you are using old, bad arguments. I think you should listen to us before you try to preach at us. And I think honest questions and discussion are better than preaching any day.

    I’ve met Dawkins, and read books by all four “Horsemen” as well as many other books. I agree with some of what they have to say, and disagree with other things. That’s what thinking for yourself looks like. For example, Dawkins is masterful when he is writing about biology, good when discussing belief, impractical on dealing with childhood religious indoctrination, and often clueless about women’s issues.

    I criticize value systems when they excuse or encourage anti-social behavior in those who hold them. No value system should have immunity from criticism, or be considered absolute. Even if such a thing as an objective moral standard were to exist (and I don’t think it does), the human understanding and interpretation of it should still be able to be questioned.

    The fundamental “belief” of atheism is that we don’t believe in gods. That’s it. From there, we’re on our own in working out what the best rules are for allowing people to live and flourish together. I don’t know any “amoral” atheists, and most of the atheists I know are very ethical people who think very deeply about such questions.

    As for Sartre, I would agree that there’s no objective meaning to life. The meaning of your life is not to be handed to you or discovered, it’s something you have the ability to create for yourself. And that’s much better “good news” than anything I ever heard in a church.

  • 450. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm

    Thank you for your more civil response. I agree that intellectual discourse should be more than insults and labelling and the use of inflammatory rhetoric. I don’t know that I would characterize my expression as preaching any more than I would characterize you discussion in that fashion. I am presenting a view point on the topic of atheistic morality. I am suggesting that atheistic morality is so ambiguous and non-commital as to be oxymoronic. As you have stated all atheists are free to adopt their own moral framework based on their own preference. Fair enough. You feel free to diverge from the more extreme positions of the foremost atheist apologists. Admirable. I do appreciate a free thinker. Now you feel free to criticize value systems that excuse or encourage anti-social behaviour. Interesting.
    Let us consider some of the societies we were discussing. Nazi Germany for example. What was socially acceptable in Germany was to round up jews, gypsies, visible minorities etc. and send them to death camps. Laws were passed, good citizen were expected to help with Hitler’s final solution. Anti-social in this content would be to hide those being sought by the state for execution. Many people did this. (Corrie Ten Boom writes an excellent biography related to this experience)
    Now a good atheist according to your expressed morality would adhere to the societal norm and hand over the individual for execution. In some societies, female circumcision is practiced, other societies are cannibalistic. Which social norms are right and which are not ? No fair saying, “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, that would be stealing Christian morality for your own nefarious purposes. Even if you used that to guide morality, why would it have any authority ? Because you say ? Because Dawkin’s does ? Any moral pronouncement made by the atheist is mere opinion and everybody has a right to their own. Even Hitler.

  • 451. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 3:01 pm

    NG @449

    Discussion, much better!

    First, we should agree on what a moral code actually is. A true hermit would have no need of “morals” because he would be unable to harm another person by anything he did. When I think of morals, I would say it’s those rules that we have developed to regulate interactions among people. These rules are slightly different in different societies, but most of the basic ones have come out the same (don’t kill people without reason, or hurt them without reason or take their stuff, etc.) because those are the ones that work. Cultures without those basic rules would not have survived.

    People are a mix of agressively selfish and naturally cooperative. So we need to work out rules that allow us to balance this. As a social animal, empathy is one of the things that allows us to live in groups. Reciprocal altruism is also important (I help you now, because in the future I may be the one who needs help). All of this goes into our “moral code”.

    I depend on the society I live in, and very few of us could exist without there being consistent cooperation among many many people. I don’t want to live in a society where people randomly blow each other up. I don’t want my children to live in such a society either. So I don’t do such things, and I support there being social pressure against it, laws forbidding it, and punishment for those who do. I don’t need a preacher to tell me this is a good idea.

    Enough for this post. Work to do, I’ll comment more later.

  • 452. cag  |  May 10, 2013 at 3:12 pm

    NG, when christians stop sending missionaries to lie to people about superstitious nonsense then you can complain about the fact that atheists have the temerity to actually write books and speak at events where attendance is voluntary. When christians stop killing Doctors for performing legal medical procedures then you can complain about atheists knocking on your door while you are eating dinner. That’s sarcasm, by the way. When christians stop denying other humans equal rights then you can complain about whatever.

    Hitler, like many christians at the time, felt justified in considering the “killers of jesus” as an inferior race deserving of extermination. There is a difference between Natural Selection and artificial selection.

    As to blowing things up, religion, not atheism, was the driving force for the World Trade Centre and other suicide bombings.

    It is the christian who can be forgiven for the most horrible atrocity. We have to live with our conscience, so we act in a way that our conscience does not need to be forgiven.

    Your story about Joe could equally be applied to the religious. Killing and religion do go hand in hand. Atheism, unlike religion or communism does not use killing as a recruiting tool.

  • 453. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 5:14 pm

    Hello cag,
    So it is O.K. for atheists to peddle their version of the truth but not for Christians (Buddists etc) to do the same. Nice double standard you got there. I hate to burst your bubble but in philosophical circles the arguments supporting the existence of God are much stronger than the ones against. I’ve still never heard a credible argument against the Kalam Cosmological argument for the existence of God.

    It is convenient that you distinguish between communists and atheists. Were Staliin and Mao Tse Tung atheists or not ? There is no doubt they were atheists and it is not surprising that communism and atheism are compatible ideologies.

    As to violence being done in the name of religion, that has happened in the past and currently occurs and it is wrong. (I mean that in an absolute sense) However it is not in any way accurate to judge a religion by its abuses while judging your own ideology by it’s best conduct. Do you want to compare the amount of compassionate aid done in the name of Christ to any other religion, or ideology ? No other group comes close. Have you ever noticed that most of the countries that currently have the most freedom and human rights are countries that were historically founded on Christian principles ? Islam is a different story but I don’t ascribe to the idea that all religions are created equal. It is a matter of debate as to whether the violence connected with Islam is in harmony with its basic teachings or no. Certainly we have reason to be sceptical in that regard. I would suggest that if one concedes the ideological connection between atheism and the actions of the communistic/atheistic regimes we have reason to be sceptical there as well. (Although I am not holding my breath on that one.) Either way you have still given no reason anyone should accept anyone else’s morality, just gone off on an anti-religion rant (partially justified) but not really dealing with the core issue here. That’s O.K. if the best atheist thinkers of the past and present haven’t been able to give a rational foundation for “atheistic morality”, I shouldn’t be surprised that none are offered here. Please reply with the rational foundation for atheistic morality or refrain. I’ve heard all the anti-christian hate rhetoric previously.

  • 454. cag  |  May 10, 2013 at 6:04 pm

    NG, just in the USA, there are some 300,000 churches. Stop and think for a minute. There is no indoctrination being done in those churches? In religious circles the wish for god is stronger than the desire for knowledge and truth. Bringing up prime movers without explaining how the prime mover came about does not make for a convincing argument. If your god wants us to accept it, then have it show itself, I’m not going anywhere soon.

    Stalin and Mao were motivated by what they call communism, not atheism. As shown by the Scandinavian countries, atheists who are not communists (i.e. most atheists) believe in improving the human lot, not suppressing it. Nowhere in atheism is there a suppression of humanity. Communism is not atheism. Sweeney Todd was a barber. That does not make every barber a serial killer.

    Have you noticed that the countries that have the most freedom and human rights are post christian? In the bible, in which jesus proclaims (John 5:18) that the Old Testament laws are still in effect, there is slavery, stonings for trivial offenses, mass extinctions caused by your god, all sanctioned by your bible.

    There is no such thing as “atheistic morality”. There is morality and there is blind obedience. I’ll give you the blind obedience, and hold on to a morality that does not call for killing gays or denying people equal rights. Morality is not an absolute. Many christians claim that if their god told them to kill, they would. That is not my idea of morality.

    You come to an explicitly non-religious site to spew your garbage and then cry if people here say that your childish superstitious beliefs are totally useless and your invisible friend does not exist. You throw up what an ideology that has nothing to do with atheists who do not believe in communism as being the fault of atheists rather than the fault of the communists. We can throw up Torquemada, the 30 year war, the Irish “troubles”, the crusades and other acts done in the name of christianity. Add islam to the mix and the atrocities multiply.

  • 455. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 6:55 pm

    NG,

    As to “Social Darwinism”, it should properly be called “eugenics”, because it really doesn’t have anything to do with Darwin’s work. Darwin observed that populations of animals change and diversify over time due to natural selection, a process that is not trying to produce any specific result. The most successful combination of traits for surviving and breeding in a particular environment is what is passed down to the next generation, or more simply “nothing succeeds like success”.

    Artificial selection has been known and utilized by human farmers for thousands of years. Our modern farm animals and plants are nothing like their ancient forebears, and this is a result of deliberate selective breeding. They are more specialized to our needs, and this always comes with a trade-off. Our cows must be milked twice a day, our sheep are stupid and must be sheared annually, our turkeys are so enormous that they cannot breed without assistance, and modern wheat and corn also require human assistance to spread. None of these could survive in the wild. As Temple Grandin says, they are “unbalanced”. They are not better than their ancestors, they are different, better in some ways and much worse in others.

    The only ideas that eugenics might have picked up from Darwin are that humans are subject to the same natural forces as other animals, and that we were once different than we are now. Thinking that we could or should try to do a better job of producing humans than happens naturally, that idea didn’t come from Darwin.

  • 456. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 7:11 pm

    As for peddling religion, it’s fine for buddhists and muslims and xians and hindus to peddle their religions almost everywhere, but not here. This website is specifically for supporting people leaving xianity. Being an evangelist here is like being a drug dealer barging into a Narcotics Anonymous meeting and offering to sell crack. We’ve had enough of what you’re selling, and we don’t want it in our lives anymore.

    Honest questions are fine. Telling us that we’re amoral and just as bad as Hitler is not OK.

  • 457. NG  |  May 10, 2013 at 8:48 pm

    Apparently this is a closed shop with no desire for a counter perspective. I had thought the site was for discussion about the topic of atheistic morality. My mistake. I will respect your right to choose to believe what you want to believe. I am a strong believer in free will. I will leave you to your sanctuary.

  • 458. ubi dubium  |  May 10, 2013 at 9:23 pm

    Thank you, NG. There are no shortage of places on the net to go if you want to engage in that sort of discussion with non-believers. This just isn’t one of them.

    I recommend the Forums at FriendlyAtheist, or the Forums at ex-christian.net, or if you are really up for a challenge there’s Pharyngula.

  • 459. Nemoque  |  June 23, 2013 at 4:03 pm

    It seems that the only people you hate are those are not part of the atheist group. You tolerance is overwhelming. Btw, just because some people do not agree about homosexuality does not mean that they hate gays. To borrow a cliché, you can hate the sin, but love the sinner.

  • 460. cag  |  June 23, 2013 at 8:06 pm

    Nemoque, we do not hate people, we detest religion. Most religious people are victims who create other victims. We want to eliminate victimization, not the victims. We want to make people realize that a book full of lies is not to be believed, not to be revered, not to be considered educational. We want people to grow up and stop believing in superstitious nonsense.

    This does not mean that we will not mock superstitious beliefs or even people who insist on evangelizing their idiotic beliefs. If you are religious, this site is not for you.

    How can something that is not chosen, such as homosexuality, be a sin? If I was born with 6 fingers on each hand, would that also be a sin? After all, it is not the norm.

  • 461. Anonymous  |  July 12, 2013 at 12:24 am

    your all wrong! Atheists and religious folk are always fighting and bickering. Now religion has its pluses and its negatives, this fighting is the negative…

  • 462. Anonymous  |  July 14, 2013 at 4:19 pm

    I am a Christian and Christ has not instructed me to do any of the ten things that you have listed.

    It seems to me that you are in some way frustrated with God and seek to vent this frustration by letting everyone know how awful you think He is.

    I would recommend you read the New Testament and look into the life of Jesus Christ. In Him, we see a more complete picture of who God is.

    So take a closer look into the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. You may be shocked at what you find.

    Best wishes….

  • 463. AK (@AK_83)  |  August 4, 2013 at 6:39 am

    1. According to the Islamic faith, God doesn’t endorse hatred of homosexuals. It endorses hatred of the act of homosexuality. The laws prescribed against homosexuality are only enforceable in the sole circumstance where the actual act of sexual intercourse has taken place in full view of at least 4 witnesses (ie. in public, which almost never happens!). The mere fact of “being gay” is not the issue, as he/she would be expected to curtail their homosexual desires just like one might be predisposed to other negative traits such as anger, jealousy, etc.

    2. You confuse equality with identicality. Islam recognises equality between the sexes in terms of status and value. But simply assigns different roles to the two genders in accordance to their physical and emotional strength and weaknesses (the two genders are not identical). Your subsequent comments at the end of your paragraph lightly touches upon this obvious point.

    3. Under the Islamic faith, there is no such complacent attitude endorsed nor promoted. There is a well-known quote of the Prophet Muhammad where he advises his companions to “tie the camel, and then pray to God”. What he was referring to was that we should take all measures to secure our camels and after having taken all measures possible by our own hands, do we then pray that God protects our herd. Being practical is just as important.

    4. Again, you lump all non-atheists into one. Not all theists are Christians, and your attempts to highlight the glories of being an atheist are largely an attack on Christianity rather than an objective self-assessment. Under Islam, there is no hate of the sinner, but there is a genuine hatred of the sin. There is a subtle but significant difference between the two.

    5. Islam encourages relationships under the protection of vows in marriage, the promotion of family values and in unfortunate cases, divorce too. Islam does not encourage celibacy, and regards marriage as half of religion. And permits sex education as long as it’s about permitted areas of discussion such as safe sex, contraception (allowed!) and other health matters. Islam doesn’t allow the promotion of homosexuality with sex education obviously. Again, your views here are more –anti-Christian, rather than anti-theist.

    6. You conveniently forget to mention Stalin and Pol Pot. He’s yours, keep him ;) Actually, I don’t believe in playing this “gutter game” of generalising people based on the fact that their community or ethnicity has unfortunately had people in the past conducting wars or committing atrocities in their name. And neither should you. It’s not intelligent.

    7. Your desires are your God. It doesn’t matter whether your assign a personality or name to your motivating force in life. The point is that any war or evil action committed by someone happened because they CHOSE to do so. Whether their motivating factor was God, money or lust – the fact is that the individual made a decision to do so and he is responsible for it. Not the ideal that he/she subscribes to. That would be as silly and stupid as generalising all animal rights activists as being of the same ilk as those who bomb and terrorise animal-testing scientists and technicians.

    8. But your country glorifies the dead all the same. Monuments of those who fought for your country, regardless of the country’s immoral invasions in countries such as Iraq, Vietnam or elsewhere. Replacing God with other ideals will result in immoral actions all the same for the same reasons as I mentioned in Point 8.

    9. Islam actually obliges the believers to take care of the environment and not to conduct mischief upon the land. If only you bothered to learn Islam from those who understood it properly, instead of listening to Fox News!

    10. And yet you endorse euthanasia – because you understand that “life is precious” (!) The Islamic religion values life extremely, both this life and the next. Do you?

  • 464. Larry  |  August 7, 2013 at 3:13 pm

    hey Neece..where are you?? you started this thread and then runaway?? i thingk you’ve just stirred people mind into convulsion!!! WHAT A WASTE GIRL!!!!

  • 465. Anonymous  |  November 12, 2013 at 6:14 pm

    I agree with much of what you have said. I caution, however, that you don’t paint all “religious” people with the same brush. Awful things have been done and said in the “name of God” that don’t represent him in the least. Much of what is taught in the Bible is the moral “ideal” and can’t be achieved but should be attempted.

    I see that you are quite passionate about this subject. Obviously you have seen through those who are misrepresenting what true love and acceptance is supposed to be. If Christ’s example is to be followed, folks need to remember that he loved and respected ALL of humanity. He also criticized those who held themselves out as to be morally superior to others and straight out called them hypocrites.

    Despite the fact that I am a Christian, I was honestly interested in what you had to say and I didn’t skim to gather points with which to attack you. There is a lesson to be learned from what you have said and I am going to examine my life to improve the areas where I am being a bad representative of my beliefs.

    While you and I may disagree in our viewpoints, I am glad that we are both living in a country that gives us the right to believe whatever we want and I respect that right for all.

  • 466. zeneece  |  November 13, 2013 at 5:57 am

    #467, thank you for your comment. I’m Neece, the writer of the article, and in my personal experience, I have hardly ever found a Christian who was willing to listen to both sides of the argument and try to be open-minded. So I wanted to take the time to address your comment.

    Most importantly, I want to note that this article I wrote does not use a broad brush to paint all Christians as morally lacking. This article is specifically about religious fundamentalists. It is stated clearly in the title, in fact.

    I know some moderate Christians who are kind, loving and quite moral. But they are not following the Bible when they treat their children with love and respect instead of killing them for disrespecting them, or refraining from stoning their daughters for having sex before marriage.

    They are not even following all of Jesus’ teachings, because they haven’t abandoned their families to follow the Lord.

    These Christians I know, and you included, I am pretty sure, have picked the good parts of the Bible and religious teachings and have eschewed the immoral, heinous and barbaric teachings and laws.

    For example, I am guessing you think slavery is wrong. The Bible very clearly talks about slavery in both the old and new testament as just the way it is, nothing wrong about it. It tells masters how they can treat their slaves, including beating them as long as they don’t die right away. And it tells slaves how to bow willingly to their masters. I’m sure you find this to a be horrid practice, for one person to own another. If you really followed your Bible, you’d have to say that slavery is acceptable and even preferred.

    I dearly hope that you do not believe that if a woman is raped she must then be forced to marry her rapist. And I hope you don’t go around stoning women who are not virgins but are not married. That’s just two barbaric practices in the Bible as an example. If you were a biblical literalist, you’d have to say that those things are acceptable.

    My argument is that if you are a strict fundamentalist, and you feel the Bible is the literal word of God, and you follow the Bible as it is written, your morals are barbaric, antiquated and unhealthy for you as well as society, and that I, as an atheist humanist am more moral than the fundamentalist.

    I do good just because it’s the right thing to do, not because I am threatened with punishment or offered a reward to get me to be a certain way.

    Also, when society matures and evolves, as an atheist, I evolve with it. I agree that gay people should have the same rights as straight people, and to that end, if they love each other and want to marry, I think that’s wonderful. A fundamentalist could never recognize their love and would condemn them. It’s Iron Age thinking, because they are following an Iron Age book.

    See what I mean?

    I’ve actually read the Bible several times and while you say much of what is in there is ideal, I can only assume you’ve never read it cover to cover because that is simply not true. Go ahead and do that. Mark every story or law that would be considered barbaric in a modern, healthy society. You’ll find you end up with many hundreds of bookmarks. People have actually done this. I’m sure you can find images of Bibles marked this way with a search.

    I am thrilled that you actually read what I wrote and are willing to see how you can grow from it. While the title is provocative, the content is meant to make people think, just like you say you will do. So thank you so much for taking the time to let me know and for reaching out to me in a kind and very humanistic way.

    I hope I’ve clarified some points, and maybe even encouraged you to read your Bible cover to cover, not just verses or parts that your pastor points out to you. The parts that pastors skim over are pretty morally base, and if they happened in our modern 1st world countries, they would be criminal.

    As an added bonus, just look at how fundamentalist Muslims treat their Quran and subsequently treat women and other humans. It’s barbaric, because their holy book was written by a barbaric man from long ago in a warring culture. If you can look at how Muslims act when they are following their holy book, maybe you can then see how what the Bible actually says is reprehensible and unacceptable throughout the many books that make it up.

    The few things that the Bible says that are genuinely good and wonderful were said long before the Bible was written (even the Golden Rule, which I use), and have been said by many since. It’s nothing sacred or special. Look into Secular Humanism. Many people believe in compassion and love and being good to each other. We certainly don’t think the Bible is the only source for figuring that out. It most definitely isn’t, and the little good in there isn’t even a very large part of the Bible.

    So thanks again! You seem like someone I’d enjoy having a nice conversation with about such things over a coffee. :)

  • 467. Anonymous  |  May 6, 2014 at 2:58 am

    you certainly don’t have strong points. Get some lessons.

  • 468. Anonymous  |  May 6, 2014 at 2:59 am

    i agree with the previous answer of you having no knowledge at all.
    my sister who is in grade 2 would have better points than you.

  • 469. Anonymous  |  May 6, 2014 at 3:00 am

    che… heck is this? is this even worth reading?

  • 470. Alban  |  June 9, 2014 at 4:32 am

    cag, at # 455, end of the first paragraph you challenge the previous writer to somehow invoke God to show itself to you. How many times throughout this entire site do you go there?

    I figure at the facility where you are kept you may not be able to go anywhere, but you are alive and can surf the net. Believe it or not in this day an age when information is so accessible, IF you follow thru with your adept ability to obtain information that gives you what you want, then check it out. Do a full search. I have recommended one or more sites previously that are extremely ‘hands on’.

    You do not have to be a criticizer the rest of your life unless that is what you REALLY want to identify with, and to your credit who wants to argue to the extreme you present. Even Lancelot seems to have thrown in the towel. But your wish here again at #455 keeps getting answered and it is ignored.

    What if you were a test case for the entire human race? You want “it” but when it is put on a platter right under your nose- where your breath enters and exits as well, you rationalize it away. So do you REALLY want to know or does your bitterness in disappointment, your expertise in skepticism, give your life meaning, a distinct identity that few can match?

    Maybe, just maybe there is another distinct part of you who will still express just you like you do because it is you. Nothing really changes except you have a gigantic amount of satisfaction to consume without rules to follow. Where did that satisfaction come from? Was in infused somehow in you, was it indoctrinated in you?

    Nope. Will you still have an edge in pointing out people’s stupidity? The interesting question at that point-maybe sooner will be, do you get that we are all weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world, but also have the chance to access the wisdom, the love and the fulfillment of all the ages? To discern stories, nonsense and half truths from reality? Would that be of benefit to you?

    The only obstacle in your way is you. Drop the disappointed identity. Put aside the anger. The edge is unique. It won’t go away. Thought you had happiness figured out? You did, but it has ALL been conditional.You think the how of this is supernatural, but it’s no more supernatural than using your own senses. It is actually more native to you than externally focusing those same senses. How did you forget?

    Enter religion with all the rules and morals, not they aren’t valid in a certain respect BUT in all of the explanations, all of the justifications, never is the obvious addressed ( a misunderstood sentence or two and a slew of examples put into parables). So unaware of it, when it is directly presented it seems as though it is supernatural.

    Is that “its” fault or were you not ready to take advantage? There’s an old story about another flood. A man who had built his house by hand from the ground up was faced with the prospect of leaving his house in order to save his life as the flooding worsened. He assumed his efforts over the years to maintain his home and his faith in God would save him and his house. So he prayed, “God, I trust you will protect me and my home from this flood.”

    Not once, but on 3 separate occasions as the water was rising a different boat came by and its occupant strongly suggested the man get in as the waters were being projected to get even higher. Each time from a higher perch he refused until the waters washed his house away and he drowned.

    When he awoke in the afterlife he demanded to see God. God came to him and the man was irate. “I depended on you. I was a good honorable man and I know you helped me build my house. And I always carefully maintained it for so many years. Didn’t you hear my prayers to save me and my home?”

    God replied, “I did and I couldn’t save the house. I suggested on a number of occasions to build your house on higher ground but you did not hear me. Then over the last few days I sent 3 boats so you could survive, but you did not hear me.”

    cag it is obvious at times the wish went out. Was your hearing obstructed by the minefields of your own skepticism or disappointment in religion? Does any of that matter to your wish despite its outer appearance of arrogance in # 455?

    As a test case you would hopefully not be regarded as typical. Yet despite a more agitated sense you do represent a lot of people. If we could learn to sense within what we are expert in focusing outward we could hugely raise the quality of our lives and end our cynacism. A separate issue from religion. One that has to do with a unique wish, a unique thirst. When the delivery of the possibility shows up, take advantage. At that point, the ball is in your court. The help is already there and quite competent. We, however in all of our ignorance are projects for ourselves. Position yourself to accurately hear, without a hair of supernatural.

  • 471. cag  |  June 10, 2014 at 1:18 am

    Alban, I fear no god, as none exist. Your god does not exist, and your attempts at insults are just childish as are your beliefs. Religion has no answers, servitude is not an answer to anything. Religion is a poison. Superstition solves nothing and the supernatural is bunk. Your word salad has zero calories and is void of micro-nutrients and vitamins.

  • 472. Alban  |  June 10, 2014 at 3:06 am

    cag, I am not talking about beliefs. And i am not insulting you. Almost everything I joke about you I have lived myself Though I understand how religion has held many together and will for some time as an oasis of sorts, the time has come for individuals to feel their thirst. Not for a sense of accomplishment but for what is self contained. IF you want or had wanted to see that possibility, it IS possible.

    Then a different kind of accomplishment can begin. One that MAYBE we could aim for, or dream of, but one that could NEVER occur if we could not tap into the key, the key being within each one of us. It is very practical, but as you exhibit, there is a lot of confusion and resentment to get thru. It is being addressed. I am like a sniper, not for a kill, but for a question to come to the surface.

    If that question or request is accurately targeted or close to, a lot of answers make themselves present. But the source of the answers is not outside our individual reach, and by that I mean self contained.

    What you outwardly fight against, you actually possess. You suggest I ‘believe’ or am religious and that is not true. What I have pointed out is that YOU and every other individual has a criteria for discernment which is a wisdom already there, NOT acquired. The journey to the ‘goal. itself opens many doors of understanding.

    Very enjoyable without being made to feel wrong or ignorant. Imagine that? Why? Because the acceptance is 2 way, the perfect match, NOT conditional.

    Like finding THE love of your life, it is obvious WHEN it presents itself. You can walk away and some do. Why? Not ready. There are no penalties for not being ready, although religion attempts to without the actual fulfillment, throws guilt into the potential outcome. Apologies to belief, that is 100% off base.

    Not assigning guilt to oneself might be considered at some point, the 11th Commandment in religious terms. It has eaten away the hope of many. For skeptics, moralists and plain good and some not so good people, just take some time to assess yourself, NOT in judgement, but in what you genuinely want. Disregard anything that “adds” anything onto you. Make a sovereign or independent decision to know yourself. Ignore your critics.

    That is one incredible thing to not let go of until you can TANGIBLY savor it. Then never let go. Superstition is n/a, cag.

  • 473. Alban  |  June 11, 2014 at 4:18 am

    Pastor Bobby Dupree at #13…what is the patient’s status now? Still wearing the helmet? #483, where is the reference to Houston drug treatment? Details are important. Maybe I missed it.

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

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Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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