September 20, 2009 at 11:00 am 16 comments

Why is it that people who put on such a show of high moral character and fine virtues are usually the dirtiest fighters, the biggest bullies, and the first to whine and cry when something might possibly be a little less than fair? Hypocrisy. That’s why. And I hate it. To me it’s one of the REAL 7 Deadly Sins.

Hypocrisy: noun- a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

I watch several different sports. I have a passion for Formula One racing, MMA and boxing. I’ve noticed parallels between sports, religion and politics.

While I love these sports, I do watch them differently than my husband does. I get interested in different players or drivers or fighters while he is more interested in other things that are beyond my poor female brain (JK!). I’m explaining how I watch them because I think that’s how I’ve noticed this thing about hypocrisy.

Here’s an example from boxing awhile ago: Mayorga is a trash talking guy who has little skill. He goes in there wildly. Mosely is a fighter who has real skill. He doesn’t talk trash.

Now things happen in boxing. Each guy is there trying to knock the other guy out. Sometimes they knock heads together. Sometimes punches go where they aren’t supposed to, like the back of the head, or anywhere on the back side of the boxer.

I watched 12 rounds of boxing between these two. Mosely never once complained to the referee when Mayorga punched him in the back of the head (obviously on purpose. It’s called a Rabbit Punch by the way). But every time Mayorga’s wild style made one of Mosely’s punches go a bit astray, Mayorga would look to the ref and whine and cry about it. By the way, Mosely knocked out Mayorga in the last second of the final round. It was sweet.

Ok, so you don’t watch boxing. But if you’re reading this, you’re probably agnostic or an atheist. Have you noticed that the same game is played with religion vs. atheism every day? The christian or other religious person will play dirty, use any tactic he or she can think of, including name calling and threats, to belittle and harass an atheist.

I’ve noticed most atheists these days either don’t fight back, or fight back fairly, carefully, and by the “rules”, using logic, science, reason, facts and (gasp) common sense. If the atheist should happen to resort to anything even remotely close to the belt, the christian will fall on the ground and writhe and scream for the ref to call the fight because of foul play. It’s insane.

Why do atheists have to play fair when christians get to play dirty?

It’s the same in politics. But I won’t even open that can of nasty worms. Whichever side you’re on, you would probably agree that your side plays fair and the other side plays dirty. Of course, the real problem there is that we are so polarized into 2 sides. No one wants to stand in the middle and think logically.

Well, I shouldn’t say no one. Because that’s what I do. I try not to take sides so much as make reasonable decisions. There must be lots of us Moderates out there, but our voices are lost in the cacophony of the extremists. A damned shame, too, because Reason is needed now more than ever before.

Anyway, I’m really just musing/ranting here. I have no idea how to deal with hypocrites, dirty fighters, rotten officials (oh yeah, that’s a big problem too… poor or downright dirty referees and officials, but I won’t even go there), and their ilk.

I do know I’m sick of being called “evil” for not believing in the invisible man in the sky, then being the only one in the fight playing fair and careful while so-called christians lie, cheat and basically make up awful stuff  just to get the upper hand.

Is it just that most people believe the fake mask that hypocrites show? Or is it something more? That it’s just difficult to call a hypocrite out when they say one thing and act the opposite?

Whatever. I’m sick of it. I think I’d rather be called a Militant Atheist (my favorite, since the only militants I’ve ever seen in the religion war have all been fundamentalist christians or muslims) and play hard than continue to get sucker punched.

On a side note, I’ve been an atheist for 9 years. Before that I was an agnostic for quite a few years. I never once tried to convert anyone to atheism. I never once told someone I knew or a stranger that they had to give up their religion for atheism. I never once knocked on someone’s door to try to scare them into religion. I was totally fine with christians believing whatever they liked, as long as they kept it personal.

But religious people aren’t content with keeping their god to themselves. They insist on forcing it down everyone elses’ throats and indoctrinating children with their dogma, and in making the government teach and embrace their god and his teachings as well.

That’s unacceptable. That’s why I keep blogging about atheism and related issues. That’s where I draw the line. Look, if you want to live in a fairy tale land of unicorns and miracles and magic, that’s your business. But keep it to yourself. Leave me alone. And keep your church out of my government.

- Neece

Cross-posted from Heaving Dead Cats

Entry filed under: Neece. Tags: , , , , .

What can I know? A caveman could figure it out (The Gog Monologues)

16 Comments Add your own

  • 1. 1minionsopinion  |  September 20, 2009 at 1:35 pm

    When Disney’s Hunchback came out, my cousin and I went to the drive-in to see it. We were really enjoying the show and the songs and the like and then it got to the bit where Judge Frollo sings that hellfire song about Esmerelda…

    Never have I see hypocrisy so well animated. It’s been part and parcel of faith for so long (look at all the history of sexual demonic possession across belief systems for example) maybe on some level they’re unaware of how it looks to the rest of us. Fish have no word for water, after all. And verses like in Romans 14 might provide all the rationality they require to maintain their divine right to play both sides:

    1. Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.
    4. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

    Objectivity is the real (sorry) god-send, as far as I’m concerned. I’d much rather be an atheist and approach issues objectively than cling to a blind subjective faith instead.

  • 2. Roi des Foux  |  September 20, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    re: politics
    I think I stand to the left of both American political parties and think logically.

  • 3. Brian  |  September 21, 2009 at 9:27 am

    I don’t know, I think in the popular debate, atheists do their own fair share of dirty fighting and hypocrisy too. Just look at “Religulous”. Sure, it’s easy to make ANY group of people look stupid when interviewing the crazees. At the very best, I think the bulk of atheists at LEAST tend to misrepresent what Christians really stand for. They look at the Jerry Falwells of the world and think that they represent the whole. They take immoral believers and think that that punches holes in the “word of god.” Honestly, I think the only people who fight fairly are people like us who have been on both sides of the issue. Whether they were christian and became atheist or vice versa. Because honestly we’re the only ones who truly understand the two different rule books that each side is playing with. We’re the only ones that can address an issue at it’s core and not have the other side go, “No, you miss the point completely.”

  • 4. DSimon  |  September 21, 2009 at 11:10 am

    I’ve been an atheist my whole life, Brian, but I always argue fair and avoid ad hominem attacks, unlike those stupid Christians. ;-)

    At the very best, I think the bulk of atheists at LEAST tend to misrepresent what Christians really stand for. They look at the Jerry Falwells of the world and think that they represent the whole.

    The thing is, I’m an atheist about moderate, peaceful religion as well; there’s plenty to say against fundamentalist religion, but there’s no requirement that we argue with kid gloves against moderate religion and its own host of (admittedly, far less threatening) problems.

    Greta Christina has a good article about this which explains it way better than I could.

  • 5. Joshua  |  September 21, 2009 at 11:16 am

    This post was extremely good.

  • 6. Brian  |  September 21, 2009 at 11:35 am


    I mean, clearly I’m making a sweeping generalization here. I know not ALL atheists play dirty like that. But it’s one thing to point out a contradiction in the Bible, which applies to ALL sects of Christianity. Fair game. It’s another thing to point at people like Fred Phelps and say, “that’s why Christianity is f—ed up.” Not fair at all.

  • 7. Roi des Foux  |  September 21, 2009 at 11:35 am

    I agree that having been a believer gives one an extra perspective, but I don’t agree with the rest of what you said. Atheists certainly aren’t perfect, but in my experience believers much more frequently resort to tactics such as ad hominem attacks and completely misrepresenting the issue.

    Atheists certainly need to be careful about targeting their criticisms, but I’ve had people respond to statements along the lines of, “It’s sad that 38% of Americans believe that their religious text is literally true and therefore reject any science that shows that the Earth is more than a few thousand years old,” with “How dare you accuse me of that! Not all believers are anti-science, so therefore that’s not an accurate critique of religion!”

    As for your last point, I don’t think it matters how well you understand both sides; no matter how much you pretty-up “It’s irrational to believe anything on faith and you don’t have any evidence for your beliefs,” you will almost always be met with “No, you miss the point completely.”

  • 8. MicThacks  |  September 22, 2009 at 3:10 am

    Wow my first post :D

    I’m ex xtian too btw.

    The reason we don’t play dirty, is because we don’t need to. Our ideas and arguments should speak for themselves. The only concern should be expressing things clearly and ensuring we are not misunderstood.

    If someone does resort to cheating, dirty play, ad hominem, it usually is just an indication of how insecure their position is. A good tell really.


  • 9. Joshua  |  September 22, 2009 at 10:53 am

    If someone does resort to cheating, dirty play, ad hominem, it usually is just an indication of how insecure their position is. A good tell really.

    Or perhaps that they play by a different set of rules.

    The real goalhere is that Christians and atheists have to submit to common rules first and then debate.

    But Christians submit first and foremost to the truth of Christ, whereas atheists submit to reasoned logic. So the Christian by default holds all the truths of his faith above the microscope of the atheist.

    Both sides think the other is “playing dirty”. The Christian thinks the atheist is ignoring the “deeper” (i.e. out of the reach of logic) truths of life by pretending like they can be debunked by logic. Atheists think the Christian is ignoring the fact that their faith claims should be submitted to reason and logic as well.

    The only way to demonstrate and convince the other side something is wrong is by… like Neece has pointed out… to show the hypocrisy where the other side is being inconsistent in the application of their rules.


  • 10. LeoPardus  |  September 22, 2009 at 1:07 pm

    The christian or other religious person will play dirty, use any tactic he or she can think of, including name calling and threats, to belittle and harass an atheist.

    Fallacy of parts: Some Christians do this, many do not. It’s certainly more prevalent among fundamentalists than most other types of Christians. If I were to hazard an estimate based on my own experience, I’d say the majority of Christians don’t behave this way. Likewise the majority of boxers don’t behave like Mayorga. But who gets noticed the most?

    I’d also say that a lot of Christians are just as disgusted with their dirty-playing brethren as you are.

    I’ve noticed most atheists these days either don’t fight back, or fight back fairly, carefully, and by the “rules”, using logic, science, reason, facts and (gasp) common sense.

    On the other hand, I’ve seen scads of atheists who use name-calling, ridicule, ad hominen attacks, and so on.

    It isn’t an atheist and religious issue. It’s a human one. People, regardless of philosophy, are often emotional, illogical, etc.

    Why do atheists have to play fair when Christians get to play dirty?

    This, as you basic tenet, is flawed. It’s a fallacy of parts, and somewhat of a straw man. Christians and atheists are guilty of what you call playing dirty. And I’ve seen more than a few Muslims, Wiccans, New Agers, etc playing just as dirty.

    But religious people aren’t content with keeping their god to themselves.

    Duh. They think others will suffer in some really bad way if the “truth” doesn’t reach through. If you really thought someone was going to try to fly off a building with two handfuls of turkey feathers, would you keep your knowledge of aerodynamics to yourself? So what it they are wrong. They think they are right and we are in danger. They honestly believe they are doing great good. I can fault their understanding or logic, but not their motivation.

    And keep your church out of my government.

    Ridiculous. Everyone is going to bring their personal philosophy into their voting, petitioning, law-making, and other government activities. It’s part of an open and more or less free republic. You don’t get something you think is bad out of government by barring them. You do it by defeating them.

    No. Christians aren’t supposed to play dirty. Neither are atheists, communists, or proponents of jaywalking. But they do. And they will always do so.

    And atheists are not shining pillars of logic and decorum. They rant, rave, and play dirty just like anyone else.

    So don’t paint US and THEM with a big brush. Isn’t that just the sort of tactic that gets decried so much here? Why adopt it?

  • 11. societyvs  |  September 22, 2009 at 1:28 pm

    I really liked the post and have to agree – many Christians do ‘play dirty’ when facing up some hard arguments they are unfamiliar with – so they take a route that all of us would consider a cop-out to avoid having to take the conversation seriously.

    Gods ways are mysterious or greater than our ways

    The gospel is foolishness to those who don’t believe

    God can do anything he wants and may defy our human logic

    They have the Holy Spirit so they are privy to some inside details most may not be


    In the end, it’s a cop-out from the actual stuff presented and put on the table for discussion – because they won’t admit this – but they lack the neccesary knowledge to be able to even be in the argument. They have their one-sided viewpoints and when someone presents more than that ‘one side’ it can be tough for them to hear and process.

  • 12. Frreal  |  September 22, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    I agree with Leo.

  • 13. HeIsSailing  |  September 22, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    Neece claims:

    “I’ve noticed most atheists these days either don’t fight back, or fight back fairly, carefully, and by the “rules”, using logic, science, reason, facts and (gasp) common sense.”

    OK. If you say so. To tell you the truth though, I have seen plenty of nonsense coming from the atheist side.

    Neece, you say you have been atheist for 7 years, and agnostic for several years before that. Were you ever a devout believer of any religion?

  • 14. HeIsSailing  |  September 22, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Wow, soceityvs. A real blast from the past! How you doing, man?

  • 15. Mystery Porcupine  |  September 22, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    Leo so smart. :)

  • 16. societyvs  |  September 22, 2009 at 3:32 pm

    HIS how’s life – me I am doing good! I am still a Christian (non-orthodox) and have continued to write even though I have less and less to say (lol). Life is good at this point in time – had a rough early part of the year – but I am basically past those problems (more personal than anything). Good to see ya on the sites!

    I still come and check on the deconverts – since some of the topics are very interesting (and I pride myself and hearing all angles of an idea). This topic won me over immediately – she likes mmma and used a boxing analogy – gotta love that!

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

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Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.



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