A caveman could figure it out (The Gog Monologues)

September 24, 2009 at 12:57 pm 111 comments

In talking with my wife once about my reasons for de-conversion, I set forth some very simple logic about why BibleGod could not be real. I basically said, “If the God of the Bible or Christianity is real, then there are certain, distinct traits about him that we can be sure of. Those traits have obvious and necessary outcomes. We simply need to look for those necessary outcomes. If we don’t find them, we are forced to conclude that the being we are discussing does not exist.”

Knowing the logic of this was unassailable, she derailed it all by saying, “That’s Enlightenment thinking. It’s all human reason as the ultimate. There are more things in the universe than what human reason can deduce.”

Of course the discussion was over then. Once someone takes logic and brains out of the discussion, there are no guidelines to go by. One can make up any specious claims and back it with tradition, “alternate thinking”, appeals to authority, or voodoo.

Of course I knew this was wrong “thinking”, but I needed a bit of time to think it through. Aside from the obvious problem of divorcing the only thinking organ we have in favor of ……..  whatever, the big problem with the “That’s Enlightenment (or Humanist) thinking” approach is that it’s bogus. It’s not Enlightenment thinking. It’s just thinking.

Straightforward logic isn’t something humanity only came upon after the Middle Ages. It’s been around since we first starting hunting and using tools. It doesn’t take a post-Enlightenment, college-educated, westerner to think that way. A caveman could do it.

To illustrate, let’s permit a caveman to do just that.

Ladies and gentlemen; meet Gog.geico-caveman

He’s a caveman. He and his buddy Og have been going around and around about Og’s deity. Let’s listen in as Gog talks about it.

“Uhm. Og say there big person in sky who have lotsa power. Him say, everyday him pray to big person so big person make everything OK for Og.”
“Little while ago, we have big mammoth hunt.”
“Og pray before hunt. Pray big person make hunt go well.”
“We go hunt. No kill mammoth. Tribe go hungry. Some little ones, some old ones die.”
“Me ask Og, ‘Why big person no help with hunt?”
“Og say, ‘Dunno. Maybe tribe bad; do things big person no like.”
“Me say, ‘Big person make little ones die because tribe no please him? That bad. Me no do that. Someone do something bad, I club that person. No club baby. That BAD.”

“Uhg. Og say big person in sky can heal anything.”
“Little while ago, Og family get sick.”
“Og pray for Og’s family to get well when sick. Og’s family die.
“Og also pray for Og’s fingers to grow back (lizard bite them off). Fingers no grow back.”
“Me ask Og, ‘Why family die? Why fingers no grow back?”
“Og say, ‘Dunno. Maybe big person think me need suffer.”
“Me say, ‘You need dead family? You need lost fingers? Me thought you said, big person love you. Me your friend, care about you. Me save your family if can. Me give you new fingers if can. Big person no loving.”

“Uhg. Og say, big person is everywhere, know everything, can do anything.”
“Me ask Og, ‘OK. Have big person do something.”
“Og ask. Many times, Og ask. Big person do nothing.”
“Me ask, ‘Why big person do nothing?”
“Og say, ‘He do things his way. Maybe him do things we no can see, hear, smell, understand.”
“Me say, ‘You ask big person to do things. Him do nothing you can see. How you know he do anything? How you know he even real?”
“Og say, ‘Him just am.”
“Me say, ‘Me think Og have head problem. He no use head.”

“Me have simple caveman brain. Og’s big person never do anything. Never do what Og say big person supposed to do.”
”Uhg. Me think Og’s big person no real. Me think Og little crazy in head.”

Well folks. There you have it. Gog, the pre-Enlightenment caveman managing “Enlightenment thinking”. Just simple, old-fashioned, “cave thinking” really.

It’s easy to figure out there’s no God. Even a caveman can do it.

- LeoPardus

Entry filed under: LeoPardus. Tags: , , .

Hypocrisy The Funk of it All

111 Comments Add your own

  • 1. Joshua  |  September 24, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    rofl.

    Love it.

    I remember going through a period where I had all those “maybe I am trying to submit God’s ways to my ways” and then suddenly realized what I was doing… I was trying to justify believing in whatever I wanted.

    Here is how I think of it:

    If God must be logical, then he is subject to the rules of logic, and therefore logic is greater than god and we are justified in using it in rejecting any deity.

    If God is not logical, then all theology is useless because nothing we say about God need follow anything we can understand.

    Those are the two options. Deal with them, Christians.

  • 2. Joshua  |  September 24, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    P.S. I do not think I am committing a fallacy of false dilemma here… I am racking my brain trying to think of any other possibility besides those two…

  • 3. DSimon  |  September 24, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    Well, the third possibility is that God is not logical, but chooses for some reasons to always abide by certain logical outcomes, though not all.

    In that situation, we’d be able to logically deduce facts about whatever aspects of that god’s behavior always stayed logical, but we wouldn’t be able to use logic to reject the deity outright, because the basic nature of the deity would be beyond understanding.

    That is, God is logical in the ways the believers think a deity ought to be, but not in any of the ways that would allow God to be disproven in their eyes. Of course, it’s supremely unfalsifiable, but it’s still a little better than the two situations you listed, Joshua.

  • 4. LeoPardus  |  September 24, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    God is subject to logic except in those areas or times when he chooses not to be.
    We cannot be sure when/where those areas/times are.
    Therefore, for all intents and purposes, God is not subject to logic.

    Back to the dichotomy we go.

  • 5. Joe  |  September 24, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    It’s so easy a caveman can do it? Only the Gecko really knows for sure.

  • 6. Joshua  |  September 24, 2009 at 3:35 pm

    Well, the third possibility is that God is not logical, but chooses for some reasons to always abide by certain logical outcomes, though not all.

    Right, but that isn’t logical and there is no logical way to know when God is being logical or not, so this is saying the same thing as God is not logical.

  • 7. Joshua  |  September 24, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    In other words, if God’s choice to be logical is not logical then there is no way to predict it and this inherently makes God untrustworthy.

  • 8. Lucian  |  September 24, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    If Galileo would’ve followed Your (caveman) logic, the memory of his name wouldn’t have made it into history. Seriously, if all the sky moves in one direction, what difference does it make that seven luminaries move the other way? If all people die and rise no more, what difference does it make that one came back from the dead? Or if all dead bodies decay, what difference does it make that some do not? Or if God never fulfilled any of my petitions, what difference does it make that He made one or even a few come true? — So much for following evidence wherever it might lead. Quality is superior to quantity, that was the lesson that Galileo’s experience taught us.

  • 9. Joshua  |  September 24, 2009 at 10:48 pm

    So who gets to determine the quality of an answered prayer? A Muslim?

  • 10. Ubi Dubium  |  September 25, 2009 at 8:48 am

    I’m sorry, Lucian, I don’t follow your analogy at all. Let’s translate Galileo into caveman terms:

    Church: My book say sky perfect, and everything in sky go around earth.
    Galileo: Sky not like you say. Me find something in sky going around something else.
    Church: That wrong! You must believe book true!
    Galileo: How about you look in telescope, see for self?
    Church: You shut up now. Or me hurt you!

    One lesson of Galileo is that reality trumps blind faith. I have no idea where you got your ideas. I’ve read Galileos Dialogues, and I don’t see anything there that would support your analogy.

  • 11. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 9:31 am

    The war is with Islam. Do not make any mistake about it.

    youtube walied shoebat. check it out, ex plo muslim.

    also, caroline glick, carolineglick.com, not a Christian, but has Obama pegged. Be sure to read her bio.

  • 12. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 9:40 am

    How pathetic. Just because you are not advanced enough to reason through the simple cause and effect universe we live in, like the latest find, 188 million light years away? You think there is no eternity?

    Here is the only problem, you cannot comprehend it. Simple as that. The thoughts are to high for you and all like you.

    You deny evil. You deny the reality of the nation Israel, the stated purpose recorded in the Bible.

    Strange how both Muslims and Jews are expecting a messiah soon. Sometime before Israel and the Arab states destroy this planet. Jesus Christ stated that at the end time, this will be the case. Abraham’s two sons. Here we are.

    Think not? Stay the fool.

  • 13. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 10:13 am

    Number two. God, for lack of a better name, is not a man. If we only use a few percentage points of our brains, what exactly are we missing?

    Why should you expect logic? All you are doing is saying, “If I were god, this is what I would do. Since god does not do what I think he should, he must not exist. I am free from guilt, the penalty for sin, there is nothing to fear at death.” That about covers the logic you attempt to place on God.

    You are deceived, and are deceiving others. You will die, and you will face judgement before the God you claim does not exist. Ofcourse, you have all heard this before.

    In one ear, and out the other. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN SIN NATURE. THAT IS WHAT GOD STATES WILL BE THE DIVIDING LINE FOR ETERNINTY. CHRIST DIED TO CORRECT THE GAP FROM A GOD THAT HAS A NATURE WE CANNOT COMPREHEND. STOP TRYING. RELAX.

    The Bible states the creation was perfect, before Adam. The Bible also states that even the creations need to be delivered from the hands of Satan, who was created perfect in wisdom.

    Doctrines of demons, this is what Jesus Christ stated of religion. In his first recorded discourse, a woman tried to explain the belief system her forefathers and current worshipers particapted in. Jesus cut her off, “you worship, but you know not what, for salvation is of the Jews.”

    Later in the conversation, he told her who He was. His claim to be the messiah, born to die. Why? Another reason you seem be flaunt you human logic at. Since none of us can understand perfection, nor a God who demands it.

    Like the Bible asks? Who can stand before Him? Apart from blood sacrifice, no one. Jews are the answer. They are set apart from all other races on earth. Think not? Wait and see.

    Jerusalem will be the issue, soon. Obama is stabing Israel in the back, no surprise there. He has no idea what he is doing.

    Israel will be blammed world wide very shortly for what is about to take place. If not in the next few months, surely in the next two years.

    Enter the peace treaty. The third temple rebuilt as part of a seven year peace treaty between the Arab states and Israel.

    News at 11:00

    The God who created heaven and earth has a code of justice that no man has ever met. That is the message of the Bible. The balance of the Bible is prophecy about one man, Jesus Christ.

    Israel is still the key

  • 14. LeoPardus  |  September 25, 2009 at 10:25 am

    George:

    I’m assuming you’re just another drive-by pseudo-christian troll. If you are still around, write coherently. That means slow down, think, write it out, read it carefully, rewrite so it makes sense to another person.
    If you can’t do this, I’ll delete your drivel.

    Don’t like that? Tough. Write intelligibly or get deleted.
    This is your one and only notice.

  • 15. LeoPardus  |  September 25, 2009 at 10:34 am

    If Galileo would’ve followed Your (caveman) logic, the memory of his name wouldn’t have made it into history. Seriously, if all the sky moves in one direction, what difference does it make that seven luminaries move the other way?

    Ubi pretty well shot this shit down.

    If all people die and rise no more, what difference does it make that one came back from the dead?

    Do I even need to explain to anyone the internal contradiction in this question? I hope not.

    Or if all dead bodies decay, what difference does it make that some do not?

    I’m guessing you’re talking about the idiotic Orthodox (and sometimes Catholic) belief that the bodies of some saints get dug up after a while and are found to be “undecayed”. I honestly don’t understand how anyone can be brainless and deluded enough to make themselves believe this. Have you ever even looked at one of these “uncorrupted” bodies? A while ago, I posted some links to pictures of several of these “undecayed” saints bodies. The images were gruesome.

    Or if God never fulfilled any of my petitions, what difference does it make that He made one or even a few come true?

    Do I even need to explain to anyone the internal contradiction in this question? I hope not.

    So much for following evidence wherever it might lead.

    Like those “uncorrupted” bodies? The evidence is rotting right before your eyes, but do you accept it?

    Quality is superior to quantity, that was the lesson that Galileo’s experience taught us.

    No. Quality and quantity are two different elements of evidence. Neither is superior. They must be taken together, in context, and with whatever other evidence you can apply.

    Really Lucian. Sometimes you do better than this, but not today.

  • 16. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 10:56 am

    YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND YOUR OWN SIN NATURE. THAT IS WHAT GOD STATES WILL BE THE DIVIDING LINE FOR ETERNINTY. CHRIST DIED TO CORRECT THE GAP FROM A GOD THAT HAS A NATURE WE CANNOT COMPREHEND. STOP TRYING. RELAX.

    GeorgeZ, read this and then fuck off. Unless you realize how stupid you sound to someone like me.

  • 17. DSimon  |  September 25, 2009 at 10:59 am

    Quality is superior to quantity, in that if you haven’t even got one piece of solid evidence, it doesn’t matter how much shoddy evidence you have. (See: UFO sightings)

    Of course, if you have whole piles of good evidence, that’s even better than one piece. (See: astrophysics).

    Lucian seems to be defining quality of evidence in a way that’s not useful for finding truth. In particular, the claim that it’s evidence for the existence of God that most prayers seem to be unanswered but a few seem to be granted seems to define quality evidence as “whatever evidence supports my hypothesis”.

  • 18. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:17 am

    Ouch, Leo.

    But, you are correct. Went too fast. Should have been stated more clearly, so a cave man could understand it.

    I was not driving by in my pseudo-christian car, trolling.

    Coherently, okay. A brief time line to help make the point

    1. God created man
    2. Man sinned, lost his relationship with God
    3. God chose Abraham, the first Jew
    4, Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Ishamel
    5. Ishmael is the father of the Arab race
    6. Ishmael was not the seed of promise
    7. 13 years later, Isaac was born.
    8. The people of Israel spend 400 years in
    Egypt, Moses leads them out after the
    Passover, bood sacrifice of an animal.
    9. Israel, after 40 years, enters the land
    promised by God.
    10. Israel is brought in and out of their land.
    The Bible records Babylon, Medo Persian
    Empire, Greece, then Rome. All deal
    with Israel in a major way.
    11. 33AD Christ death
    12. 70 AD Israel crushed by Rome, Titus;
    600-632 Mohammed claims a new
    message, correcting Jews and Christ.
    13. May 14, 1948, Israel reborn as a
    nation.
    14. 1967 Israel regains East Jerusalem
    15. 1973 Israel gains more land.

    Abraham was a selected man to start a race of people, not that they are special for any other reason but so man can trace the invisable working of God on this planet. This is the claim the Bible makes. I believe it to be truth.

    Now, in 2009 the world is demanding Israel gives land for peace, and maybe the Muslims will let them live. Not going to happen.

    The Bible states that Israel is the key to world history. That there is a God. He has chosen to show himself through the nation of Israel. Chose the Jews to bring the messiah to man for the purpose of redeeming man.

    I know it sounds far out. Granted. But, if a person is at all fair minded, you cannot deny the prophecy concerning Israel. It is very difficult to deny the evil of man through all recorded history. Why is it this way?

    Is it really just happenstance? If you do not want to retain God in your thoughts, your choice.

    I choose to look at the Bible as the only document on earth, excluding all others, for good reason, and be serious about what it states.

    Do not be fooled by thinking there is not a master plan at work.

    Do have a nice day. Thanks for the scolding, it was deserved.

  • 19. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:31 am

    Joshua, how it sounds to someone like you????

    Oh, you mean enlightened? Someone like me who is too stupid to know there is not a God who rules over man. That man will give an account to.

    Someone like you who is too well schooled to belive in the big guy in the sky?

    You are the fool the Bible refers to.

    You will not have the same beliefs you have now in the coming years.

    You, and all like you, unless you repent, will suffer the same fate. I hate to see that happen to you.

    And no, I will not f=off.

    Thanks for the offer, by the way, good name…..Isn’t that out of the Bible somewhere?

  • 20. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:34 am

    So you don’t have respect or gentleness. Nice.

  • 21. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:37 am

    You are the fool the Bible refers to.

    Sure, so the fuck what? Anyone could write something like what David wrote. His reasoning makes a lot of sense.

    Then why does the following verse talk about us committing vile deeds?

    What vile deeds?

  • 22. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:39 am

    You have nerve speaking to respect or gentleness. Are you insane? Read your post to me. Where do you get off talking about respect>

    THE FOOL HAS SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD.

    Is that you?

    You have already answered in your post.

  • 23. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:47 am

    You have nerve speaking to respect or gentleness. Are you insane? Read your post to me. Where do you get off talking about respect

    You are the one who is commanded to be respectful, not me :)

    Demonstrate you have the Holy Spirit or you might as well be a false prophet.

  • 24. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Hey, Joshua, you are right.

    Remember, I am a fallen creature.

    Thanks for the caps on Holy Spirit, they are well deserved.

    I am afraid I get to riled up at times. Forgive me?

    Thanks for the conviction, now I feel the guilt.

  • 25. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Haha, oh George. Hi, I’m Josh. I’d tell you I am the anti-christ but that would just be mean.

    I’m really, really messing with you… but it did feel good to let off some steam.

    Hope you are having a good day.

  • 26. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 11:55 am

    Remember, I am a fallen creature.

    I thought you were a new creation?

  • 27. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I am afraid I get to riled up at times. Forgive me?

    Nothing to forgive. I understand your reaction completely and have held nothing against you.

  • 28. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    George, you know how much stress it would relieve in your life if you understood that nobody is going to hell?

  • 29. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Zing!!

  • 30. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 12:20 pm

    Well, Joshua, all I know is what the Bible states. I do not know what hell is. I do know this, Jesus Christ spoke of hell as a reality, even though Jews, for the most part, do not.

    And, Jesus talked about hell three times more than heaven.

    So, Joshua, I need to be warning you. I have not thrown my intel to the wind in believing there is a creator to the universe. Cause and effect, even Richard Dawkins cannot explain it.

    I don’t know you, but I am begining to like you.

  • 31. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    I don’t know you, but I am begining to like you.
    :) All part of my evil plan for world domination.

  • 32. GeorgeZ  |  September 25, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    Yeah, I think your plan is working. I feel the evil.

    waliedshoebat.com youtube

    carolineglick.com read her bio she has a handle on Obama

    Check these out

    youtube………what the west needs to know about Islam

    Speaking of Satan, he is the author of the two state solution, Israel being divided for the hope of peace? Not

  • 33. societyvs  |  September 25, 2009 at 4:15 pm

    Is it just me or does George Z believe himself…a little too much…even takes the bible into a political battle he knows nothing about – yet feels free to make some judgments about it (Palestine and Israel conflict).

    For the record George, I am a Christian also – I just don’t think your outcomes are all that accurate. You seem to have something against Obama – what that is is quite beyond me…we could of used this jargon when Bush was in but I digress.

    I think what you have George is a single version of what is in the scriptures – and then base that around Revelations (which is really not smart since we don’t use apocalyptic literature anymore so who knows who is interpreting that correctly?). Your error is really revelations as a lense for determining what is happening now, then, or ever. You must admit your grasp on that book is miniscule at best?

    As for the topic of hell – research the terms used in more depth – gehenna, hades, and sheol. You will find one term is completely Jewish (sheol) and the other 2 are terms from Greco-Roman language. You need to know that hell as is understood in many Christian denoms is just plain fabrication and based on a system that was external to what Jesus himself would of taught (ie: sheol – the abode of the dead).

    Hades and Tartarus and Gehenna – well they are underworld type ideas (although gehenna is besically a fiery garbage heap) – ideas that would of existed like this order (from top to bottom):

    Life
    Death (sheol)/gehenna (garbage pit)
    Hades/Tartarus

    Fact is, the gospels introduce a new term – the underworld into theology that seems completely borrowed from Greco-Roman ideas. Prior to this – hades and tartarus – are unheard of in the Jewish texts (only sheol is used). Sheol being the place of the ‘dead’ – awaiting ‘resurrection’. As for the underworld scenarios – they make great video games but I am not sure of their validity.

  • 34. LeoPardus  |  September 25, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    George is caught up in a particular subset of christians who use all sorts of specious silliness out of the bible (esp Revelation) to paint a rather specifically detailed view of history.
    I was caught up by some of this about 25 years ago. It didn’t take me too long to start seeing how asinine it is.
    The trouble is that some people get really stuck in this silliness. Whether due to laziness, gullibility, dishonesty, or good-ole-fashioned stupidity I don’t really know.

  • 35. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    The trouble is that some people get really stuck in this silliness. Whether due to laziness, gullibility, dishonesty, or good-ole-fashioned stupidity I don’t really know.

    I think it’s pretty normal to get caught up in it, honestly. There are certain tones of voice, authoritative styles of preaching, etc. which humans are tuned to listen to and believe. In addition the people who do this type of teaching get the response they believe they should get if God is working through them and it all becomes a self-reinforcing social system independent of the truthfulness of the statements being made. It intrigues me to no end that a preacher can say the most obvious or inane thing in the world and if said with just the right tone, it will get everyone in the audience to clap as if it was quite profound:

    “… but Islam is prophesied in Scripture, thus demonstrating the eternal truthfulness of the Word of God. This is not we could have ‘self-fulfilled’ by any means of our own… it is God at work [slows voice] in… the… world… [speeds up slightly]… fulfilling everything in its time… [pause]… so as to bring all the glory to His Son… Jesus Christ… through whom all things were created and to whom belongs [in hushed, somber tones] all the glory, Amen. [longer pause to let it sink in] Thus we find ourselves in a place [complete non-sequitor] of true peace, not like the peace the world gives… knowing what must come and in faith that God will fulfill His Word. Can I get an amen?”

    *clap clap*

    (I made all that up, BTW.)

    Quite frankly, these systems are beautiful to me. Yeah, they suck to interact with from the outside, but whatever. It becomes an internal system of gullibility, natural human interaction, social reinforcement, fellowship, knowledge transfer, safety from all ‘real’ harms, etc.

    Honestly, I kinda like watching these systems… they are like clockwork.

  • 36. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 5:04 pm

    Societyvs………..First of all, you have no idea what I know about the Bible, Revelation of Jesus Christ, which is the true title of the Book of Revelation.

    Anyone with any experience in prophecy knows that Revelation has its equal in the Old Test.
    By the way, look into the last chapter of Daniel, he speaks to the issue of everlasting separation from God.

    As a child, I fully understood the different words in the Heb. and Greek for sheol, hell, etc.
    You show complete ignorance in reference to Obama. Obama, just a few days ago at the United Nations, called for a two state solution. Clearly against what God has given to the Jews.

    Islam is the complete oposite of Christianity. From Satan himself. Do you agree with this statement?

    I have placed several youtube sites to view. Check them out.
    Also, you refere to, we? “We don’t use apocalypic lit any more.”

    Just who are the “we” you are refering to? I would like to know.
    Back to Obama, he seems to be ignorant of the Abrahamic Covenant, are you aware of it. If so, you would understand the problem with Obama.
    The United States has been blessed as a nation for its support of the State of Israel. Do you understand this Biblical fact?

    Are you of the mindset that Israel is no longer the nation that God is jealous over? Do you believe God has turned his back on the Jews of Israel? I firmly hope not.

    What makes you a Christian? Is Jesus God? yes or no?

  • 37. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Joshua,
    Just when I was starting to like you, you shoot out the evil.

    Comon dude !!!!

    You guys really have a mutual admiration society going here.

    Can I get an AMEN ? ? ?

    clap, clap, clap

  • 38. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    All right everyone. Calm down.

    A term is just a term with a definition that is subjective to the individual using the term. Let’s disregard applying labels at all because people will interpret them differently and it will not be edifying to anyone.

    The truth is what we are concerned with here, and more fundamentally, how we determine what is true. isms and names and labels are just ways we describe systems of thought and epistemology. Let us not use them as weapons.

    Recognize that people naturally come to different conclusions based upon their experience in this world and the information they have received. Recognize that another person may not have all the background information you have and therefore that may be what is causing the the problem in communication. If we understood what another person was saying in its essence, not in its verbage, it will help us understand one another more properly.

    And for God’s sake, don’t get into the stupid “you’re not a real Christian” accusations or I’ll have to bring out the True Scotsman to kick your ass.

  • 39. Joshua  |  September 25, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    You guys really have a mutual admiration society going here.

    Exactly what we expect if what I say is correct, no?

  • 40. societyvs  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    “Anyone with any experience in prophecy knows that Revelation has its equal in the Old Test” (George)

    I can say the OT has apocalyptic lit in it also – agreed. But the last person I want defining some of that is someone that has no clue about apocalyptic lit – and only see’s literalism in those texts.

    “Obama, just a few days ago at the United Nations, called for a two state solution. Clearly against what God has given to the Jews.” (George)

    Okay Jack Van Impe – let’s hash this out real quick. Is it not true God was okay with the Jewish tribes Judah and Israel splitting the land into 2? Heck a few tribes from Moses era stayed behind – making a tri-party split within original Israel tribes. Now Israel and Palestine seek to ‘share’ the land and it’s a problem…with God?

    “Islam is the complete oposite of Christianity. From Satan himself. Do you agree with this statement?” (George)

    No I don’t agree – sorry. The complete opposite of Christianity would be a messiah-less religion (since Christianity at it’s crux is based in that idea almost solely).

    “Just who are the “we” you are refering to? I would like to know” (George)

    Modern society for about some 1800 years or more. The last text on this issue is really Revelations – and that is based on older apocalyptic lit ideas from centuries prior to it. How anyone in this modern era can think they have that style of writing figured out is just scared to admit they don’t.

    “What makes you a Christian? Is Jesus God? yes or no?” (George)

    Are you aware of the Torah covenant? God is One! Yet you ask me if Jesus (a man) is God? You have to be kidding me. Does beliving in One God make more or less a Christian – inquiring minds want to hear that answer.

  • 41. LeoPardus  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:19 pm

    We had another crazy named George not so long ago. Same? Dunno.

    This guy reminds me of a George I knew about 30 years ago. He also spewed rambling lunacy derived from his cultish christian experience. Loonier than a toon he was.

  • 42. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:33 pm

    Leo, don’t forget George Bush

  • 43. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:45 pm

    Spewed rambling lunacy? Like him already.

    You must be kidding me, right?

    The trouble is that some people get really stuck in this silliness. Whether due to laziness, gullibility, dishonesty, or good-ole-fashioned stupidity I don’t really know.

    Well Leo, I believe you are the gulible one, and lazy, stuck in the hope the Gospel is false. We will see who is the good-ole-fashioned stupid one, time will tell.

    The blind leading the blind.

  • 44. Roy  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    Ok guys. It’s all about love. Love thine enemy. Love thy neighbor as thy brother. That’s the gospel in a word.

  • 45. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    Now Israel and Palestine seek to ’share’ the land and it’s a problem…with God?

    Well, Society, there is one large difference, they were all Jews, this time it is Palestine. I hope you know where the name Palestine comes from. Do you know how, and when it was changed?

    Obama wants to make Palestine a nation, get it? Make Jerusalem an international city, or share the capitol with Islam. No way.

    I am amazed at the lack of knowledge, you attempt to sound like you understand, but you do not. You have ears, but no hearing.

  • 46. Roy  |  September 25, 2009 at 6:58 pm

    Please chill George. Everything will be okay.

  • 47. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Please chill George. Everything will be okay.

    Well, Roy, hope you are right. But, your buddies seem to be the attack dogs. I’m just a little kitten surrounded by these Dobermans.

    You hang with a tough bunch.

  • 48. Roy  |  September 25, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    They and you are both my buddies, George.

  • 49. Roy  |  September 25, 2009 at 7:43 pm

    And George, they’ve had enough preaching. They (and everybody for that matter) needs more love.

  • 50. George  |  September 25, 2009 at 8:48 pm

    I am a Lover. Four daughters, a son, and a great wife.

    Take care Roy

  • 51. Roy  |  September 25, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Great! Don’t forget to love your enemies too, if you have any.

    You take care of yourself too, George.

  • 52. Arthur  |  September 26, 2009 at 1:14 am

    George….If i told you that you would be going to hell because the Koran told me that you should would you accept this argument? no? well then why should i take YOUR old book seriously?

    first provide evidence your book is correct, then provide evidence the specific claims and passages are correct and then i would believe. I still wouldn’t be a worshiping christian (the god of the bible is evil, if he exists he wouldn’t be something to worship. fear and hate sure, worship no).

    see how that works? your basically coming off to rationalists like a crazy man screaming on the street. it doesn’t matter how much you believe this stuff. it simply doesn’t matter to me. what matters to me is the _evidence_.

    you don’t have it.

  • 53. Tuffnel  |  September 26, 2009 at 6:21 am

    There is no GOD!

  • 54. GeorgeZ  |  September 26, 2009 at 8:36 am

    Well, Tuffnel, you will just have to wait then, won’t you. Until your dead body releases you, the real you, which will never die.

    Then you will find the truth. Not alone does God exist, you will face the judgement promised. Your arrogance will cease.

  • 55. Roy  |  September 26, 2009 at 11:05 am

    George, you say you are a lover. We all need more love and less preaching.

  • 56. LeoPardus  |  September 26, 2009 at 11:28 am

    George:

    Rather than your silliness – which is only believed by a small subset of the christian faith – how about you get your deity into the game. Just about every former believer on this site spent quite a while trying to hold on to their faith. We prayed a lot, screaming and crying for something, anything to hang on to. Most of us have said that we would still be quite open to a “Damascus Road” experience. So tell your deity to get off the throne and toss a few blinding lightning bolts.

    And also try to think about this. Do you really think that spewing your apocalyptic lunacy is going to convince anyone here? No. You don’t. So take it somewhere it might be listened to. There’s surely a blog site for Glen Beck fans.

  • 57. Lucian  |  September 27, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    My phrases weren’t self-contradictory, but You know that already.

    I already knew of Your opinion on relics, since You’ve expressed it before (that’s what I was criticizing, among others). My advice? Take another good look at them.

    And to my knowledge Galileo wasn’t an atheist, and he seemingly had no trouble with the Bible supposedly contradicting his findings.

  • 58. LeoPardus  |  September 28, 2009 at 11:08 am

    My phrases weren’t self-contradictory,

    Yes they were. If, as I said, I must explain why, then the damage is probably organic and irreparable.

    Take another good look at them.

    Done. Yuck. You try the same now. Those are rotted corpses. If you can’t see that, it’s further proof of organic level damage. But then, I was pretty sure of that already.

    to my knowledge Galileo wasn’t an atheist,

    No one said he was.

  • 59. Joshua  |  September 28, 2009 at 11:29 am

    There is no GOD!

    As if shouting this was going to do any good. To a person who believes, God is as real to them as this keyboard is to me. So there is a God – even if it exists only in the minds of men.

  • 60. GeorgeZ  |  September 28, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Leo, you cannot say with any certainty than no one on this site will stop and think further on the faith they have forsaken.

    You cannot, any more than I can say someone will.

    Secondly, you have no right saying what I am stating is lunacy. No one has still delt with the nation of Israel, the prophecy of Joel.

    Joel deals with Israel, regathered back into the land, and the nations, world wide, trying to divide the land.

    You are very naive to think that this is all an accident of history and prophecy that matching current events. To believe as you do denies even the distant possibility that the Bible is relevant.

    This will become your, and all that believe as you do, shame.

  • 61. GeorgeZ  |  September 28, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Also Leo, man will not survive this plantet, regardless.

    Unless someone, one man, stops the carnage.

    We all know who the Bible says this will be, and the time period it will take place in. Twenty=two Arab, or Muslim states vrs Israel.

    The euro union, now the us with all the other 180 nations of the world will vote in the UN for a two state solution.

    Even if Israel is forced into this, it will only last for 42 months.

    The third temple gets built as part of a peace treaty.

    Watch for the coming events, you can watch them on line.

    Deny all you wish, you will not change what is coming.

  • 62. Notachurchgoer  |  September 28, 2009 at 11:51 am

    George, you have strong zeal, but unfortunately that same zeal is what blinds you. It’s amazing to see how non critical we are of things we want to accept, things that we don’t want to deny. I had that same zeal as a preacher, but when I saw things in reality that contradicted what the bible said, I began to search and see the true nature of things and the true history of Christianity. George, I’ll shoot you a message blog December 25, 2012 to wish you a Merry Winter Solces, by the way, prophecy has it that human kind will not see the world as we know it after December 21, 2012. We’ll see…

  • 63. Joshua  |  September 28, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    No one has still delt with the nation of Israel, the prophecy of Joel.

    Joel deals with Israel, regathered back into the land, and the nations, world wide, trying to divide the land.

    Fine, I’ll “deal” with it.

    Listen, Joel prophesies that Israel would be regathered – at least in your interpretation. Awesome! What are the chances that this prophecy would happen in the next 3000 years? EXTREMELY HIGH.

    Just as it was EXTREMELY HIGH chances that Tyre would be rebuilt, in direct contradiction to the prophecy in Ezekiel.

  • 64. GeorgeZ  |  September 28, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Josh, are you kidding me here? HERE IS WHAT YOU STATED

    Listen, Joel prophesies that Israel would be regathered – at least in your interpretation. Awesome! What are the chances that this prophecy would happen in the next 3000 years? EXTREMELY HIGH.

    Just as it was EXTREMELY HIGH chances that Tyre would be rebuilt, in direct contradiction to the prophecy in Ezekiel.

    Josh…….. Name a nation that has been re-established after a book based on the fact, written over a period of over thousands of years, read a believed by generation after generation, comes back 2000 years later.

    Not alone does it return, it is in the exact location even though they were attacked the same day by all the Arab states in the region, plus Britian. Get real.

    Miracle after miracle since then. Again, get real. Please

    You are so ill informed, and you talk about reason???????

    Claiming to the world, over a period of over 4000 years, the God of the universe was going to make a special point

  • 65. GeorgeZ  |  September 28, 2009 at 12:57 pm

    December 25, 2012 to wish you a Merry Winter Solces, by the way, prophecy has it that human kind will not see the world as we know it after December 21, 2012. We’ll see

    i AM NOT A DATE SETTER, NO 2012 IN BY POST ANY WHERE.

    Could something happen by then, sure. Will it? Do not know.

    I do know this much, the stage is set and Israel is the key.

    Islam will continue to rage. The world is in more danger because of Islam than it realizes. I see it, have studied it for over 50 years. Know the Bible, know the supposed contradictions. Have heard the arguements, creation vrs evolution, been to many debates from great minds on both sides of the issue. Now, ID is gaining more converts, as well it should.

    By the way, I see just fine, do you? I do not care what you preached, or how you preached it. You left. That is it.

    I have no idea what you preached.

  • 66. Joshua  |  September 28, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    By the way, I see just fine, do you? I do not care what you preached, or how you preached it. You left. That is it.

    You’re such an asshole GeorgeZ.

    By the way, I see just fine too. I do not care what you are preaching. I left. That is it.

    Two can play your stupid games. Just leave already. Joe, he reminds me of you like a year back.

  • 67. LeoPardus  |  September 28, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    George:

    You’ve really got to try thinking about what you say. I mean even aside from the frequent spelling and grammar errors it’s loony.

    Now I do actually a right to call your ravings lunacy. In fact I think it a duty. [And for a guy who thinks he has a right to call us fools and tell us his sky daddy is going to condemn us to unthinkable torture forever, I don't see where you'd have any room to talk back on this one.]

    Look George: you’re inside a box. It’s small, completely closed, and it’s dark in there. You’ve been telling yourself that it’s the whole world and that it’s filled with light. Dude, it’s just a tiny, flimsy, cardboard box with a lot of tape on it to keep it shut.

    I know you don’t want to come out. It’s warm, and tidy, and comfy, and peaceful, and predictable in there. You know it well. Out here it’s big, and messy, often noisy, and you never know what’ll happen for sure. And George; it’s bright. Very bright. If you ever look out, you’ll be momentarily blinded by the light of it all. But man, it’s the light of truth. And your eyes will be open for the first time.

    It’s very scary to come out of the box. You’ll want to crawl back in and put the tape back on at times. But after a while you get used to it. And THEN, there is the huge, incredible world to discover and enjoy. In time you even get perspective on the box and see it for what it is. And you can’t ever go back then.

    George: There’s no magic man in the sky. That ancient book you read (the one written largely by primitive, superstitions nomads) is a mythology of one, small people. Just like Greek myths (from which they got some of their myths). It’s not a great secret. And that guy in the second part of the book; the one you think you know: he may have existed, but he’s dead and gone now. (Yes, I know that’s the worst thing you can hear or read from anyone.) You don’t have a relationship with the dead guy. (no more so than you could with Julius Caesar).

    We can hear you raving from out here, but it doesn’t impress as you think it does. It’s sad really. And we wonder how much damage it can do.

    Well anyway, you’re invited to look out. We don’t expect you to. It’s too frightening for most people. Heck, it scared all of us… at first. Anyway, it’s really amazing out here. ….. Have a nice life either way.

  • 68. LeoPardus  |  September 28, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    George:

    You needn’t launch now. I could do it for you really. I’ve not just heard it before. I’ve said it myself.

    Please. Don’t bother. Try either thinking or going off on with your own kind.

  • 69. Mystery Porcupine  |  September 28, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    I am hoping that there will be more comment moderation on this site in the future. I feel like I found a home, but it is constantly being overrun by name-calling bullies who think we’re all going to hell. I get enough of that elsewhere. WordPress makes it easy to moderate comments or to ban someone from commenting at all. Though I enjoy free speech and a good debate, this is a privately-run site with a great purpose, not a forum for preachers. We can all go to church for that. Or do others here enjoy this endless circling?

    If you have something to say, make a point or two about the post you comment on. Ask a relevant question about the post. But there’s no purpose in referencing the Bible ad nauseum. Most of the people here DON’T BELIEVE in GOD or the book that you’re using to make sense of the world. You might as well be using the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.

    If you believe in Jesus, maybe you should use his model when dealing with people. [Keep in mind, when Jesus preached, the crowd chose to come listen to him, and WE are not gathered here to listen to anyone preach.] I cannot imagine Jesus coming back to the same people again and again arguing with them about things that they don’t believe. I can imagine him offering them some food if they were hungry, asking them one soul-serious question, or admonishing them once and walking away.

    Yes, try one of those Jesus-friendly approaches. That would be a refreshing change. :) And if your post ends up to be nothing more than a drive-by flame, a moderator could choose to delete it. Wouldn’t that be pleasant? :)

  • 70. Notachurchgoer  |  September 28, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Deep down I believe George wants us all to burn in the pits of Tarturus for not agreeing with him, what a farce.

  • 71. LeoPardus  |  September 28, 2009 at 4:03 pm

    You might as well be using the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy.

    Ya know. I think I’m gonna start doing just that.

    But, but, but, but the great Douglas says, “A towel is the most massively useful thing in the Universe.” so how can you say you can live without a towel??

  • 72. societyvs  |  September 29, 2009 at 11:07 am

    “Well, Society, there is one large difference, they were all Jews, this time it is Palestine. I hope you know where the name Palestine comes from. Do you know how, and when it was changed? I am amazed at the lack of knowledge, you attempt to sound like you understand, but you do not. You have ears, but no hearing.” (GeorgeZ)

    I have to answer this one thing back – not to offend anyone – just that he responded to me and I feel I should at least defend my position.

    George – the point is the land has been split for as long as anyone can personally remember – even God allowed it in the texts. Now yes, they may have all been Jews – but your a Christian and for you God is all inclusive – true? In fact, in case you never knew – Israel also was very inclusive…to foreigners and strangers.

    Now because you think Joel has a prophecy that is about to commence in the next few years – it is wrong to seek peace? I would ask – did not Jesus preach peace? What trumps what – teaching or prophecy?

    How can we be sure Joel was not already fulfilled in the return of the babylonian exiles to their homeland? Makes more sense to me. Then they built the temple – which we see in another Tanakh book – the dedication of this temple.

    I am amazed – that you believe that prophecy garbage. Even if it were true – what does it change George…for me, you, Leo, anyone on this planet? If it is prophecy isn’t it ‘inevitable’? No need to worry George – you and I can’t change anything by saying millions of things about or nothing…I like nothing.

    Also nowhere does Jesus proclaim we need to first and foremostly follow prophecy to be Christians (or disciples)…nowhere! Prophecy is just not an essential to being someone of this faith – it isn’t. You have fallen under the spell of American movements in this area – reachng back to the mid 1800’s – and have caused some of the most terrible church splits and doctrinal wrangling (including the JW’s and Mormons). Prophecy, as you know it, within America is a divisive game. You mine as well also be helping split Israel – because you are helping split Christians…add one more to the docket.

  • 73. Joshua  |  September 29, 2009 at 1:08 pm

    All I can think is that George believes that he – out of a small group of people – understands the truth of the world as it will happen in the near future. Because this piece of knowledge is rare, George sees it as extremely valuable. In addition, having this piece of knowledge – and understanding it as George does – will lead a person to a greater sense of peace because as one’s understanding of this universe more closely approaches the truth a person will be at greater peace. George wants us to avoid the lack of peace that will come from us discovering that we are wrong.

    George, however, believes that we somehow cannot comprehend this knowledge. This explains the repeated efforts to ‘defend’ his position. As a result, George himself cannot comprehend how we could be so stupid as to not see the obvious truth he so clearly sees, thus resulting in his obvious angst. He therefore must conclude that we are deluded or willfully ignoring the truth, which contributes to the angst even more. Since our lives will have to change according to the truths of the threats he presents, he feels he can safely call us fools. Why? Because we are fools for ignoring a threat which is so “obvious” so that we can enjoy some passing pleasures. After all, this is the only remaining option in his mind that he will willingly accept. The possibility that he is deluded and wrong is beyond him, because his mind cannot see any flaws with his position because all errors in prophecy or problems presented by us can immediately – and without a second thought – be thrown into the category of Satanic activity and confusion.

    Now George, for the sake of humoring us, can you please try to explain our position from our perspective with at least as little lucidity, proper grammar, sentence structure, and desire to understand as I have just presented? It would be greatly appreciated, as I think most of our frustration stems from a feeling that you are not willing to genuinely understand us before you try to communicate to us. Thank you.

  • 74. Joe  |  September 29, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    As an aside, and in an effort to completely sidetrack the conversation I offer the following words for the day with their definitions:

    Flatulence (n.) emergency vehicle that picks you up after you are run over by a steamroller.

    10. Balderdash (n.) a rapidly receding hairline.

    Thank you. :)

  • 75. Joe  |  September 29, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    And keeping with the religious theme I offer this:

    Circumvent (n.) an opening in the front of boxer shorts worn by Jewish men.

    Thank you. :)

  • 76. LeoPardus  |  September 29, 2009 at 3:13 pm

    How about
    Religious movement: What you get when you mix holy water with Exlax.

  • 77. George  |  September 29, 2009 at 7:46 pm

    Yes, try one of those Jesus-friendly approaches. That would be a refreshing change. And if your post ends up to be nothing more than a drive-by flame, a moderator could choose to delete it. Wouldn’t that be pleasant?

    Now George, for the sake of humoring us, can you please try to explain our position from our perspective with at least as little lucidity, proper grammar, sentence structure, and desire to understand as I have just presented? It would be greatly appreciated, as I think most of our frustration stems from a feeling that you are not willing to genuinely understand us before you try to communicate to us. Thank you.

    Now George, for the sake of humoring us, can you please try to explain our position from our perspective with at least as little lucidity, proper grammar, sentence structure, and desire to understand as I have just presented? It would be greatly appreciated, as I think most of our frustration stems from a feeling that you are not willing to genuinely understand us before you try to communicate to us. Thank you.

    YOU ARE KIDDING, RIGHT?

  • 78. paleale  |  September 29, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    George, what we’re basically saying is,

    STOP BEING A DICK

  • 79. paleale  |  September 29, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    I’ve been sitting back and watching this whole thing and while it’s often been entertaining, it’s absolutely pointless on both sides. George says something ridiculous and inflammatory, we say something reasonable yet exasperated or something way over George’s head.

    No one is making any headway here.

    George, before you blow a gasket, move on. We’re happy. We’ve heard it all. We disagree with you.

  • 80. GeorgeZ  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:40 am

    George, what we’re basically saying is,

    STOP BEING A DICK

    I’ve been sitting back and watching this whole thing and while it’s often been entertaining, it’s absolutely pointless on both sides. George says something ridiculous and inflammatory, we say something reasonable yet exasperated or something way over George’s head.

    No one is making any headway here.

    George, before you blow a gasket, move on. We’re happy. We’ve heard it all. We disagree with you

    Well, paleale, you get the award for being the most rude of the atheists.

    Nothing going on here is over my head. What is going on in the world is over your head.

    Lile the Bible states, “Thinking themselves to be wise, they have become fools.”

    You have idiots in this conversation who want to equate the myth of Greek gods, with Jesus Christ. Others who say Jesus Christ never existed.

    Others who have not a clue who Israel is. Why they are back in their land, and what is coming next. Sad.

    I am sure you all were Obama voters. Stay tuned, he does not have a clue, way over his head. He is becoming a the clown of world wide politics. I am sure he is your man.

    All of you fit into the same mold, predictable. Condone homosexuality, abortion, a womens right to choose, wise in your own eyes.

    Let me say something ridiculous and inflammatory, “You are the people who the Bible describes as reprobate. Leaving the faith, not enduring sound belief (doctrine).

    Do you really belive you are going to escape. If you do, what a sad conclusion you are going experience.

    You are in this world with no hope, dead while you yet live.

    This crap you and your friends spew out on how Jesus would act in this little chat room? Let me tell you. He would call you a generation of vipers. A group of people teaching doctrines of demons. He would tell you that if you did not believe He was the messiah, you would die in your sins.

    This is casting pearls before swine. You can repent and change. As Jude stated, “some save by fear, some by love.”

    You have rejected the truth of God for a lie.

  • 81. Blue  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:48 am

    To quote the movie Billy Madison “What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.” Thank you George for the laugh, my wife needed a chuckle.

  • 82. GeorgeZ  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:49 am

    You’re such an asshole GeorgeZ.

    Joshua, just caught that zinger, almost missed it.

    Here it is Josh. You think I do not understand someone walking away from faith in Jesus Christ? You could not be further from the truth. I believe I have a few years on you. I have seen many walk away, for a variety of reasons.

    Do not think you and your little fan club are unique, you are not.

    Time is fully on the side of truth. Time is against you, and all who hold to your interpretation of reality. I truly feel sorry for you and your obvious confusion. Also the pain your parents must be going through to watch you slide down this slope your are on.

    Josh, I sincerely hope you wake up.

  • 83. GeorgeZ  |  September 30, 2009 at 1:06 am

    Yes, try one of those Jesus-friendly approaches. That would be a refreshing change.

    I do not believe you know the Jesus of the New Testament, nor the Jesus who will be returning to this earth.

    This is very unfair of me, taking advantage of you this way. Knowing the truth of the Bible, stating with impunity the events that will soon take place.

    Take care.

  • 84. Joshua  |  September 30, 2009 at 1:28 am

    I believe I have a few years on you. I have seen many walk away, for a variety of reasons.

    This is very unfair of me, taking advantage of you this way.

    Now I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are an asshole. You are depraved.

  • 85. Joshua  |  September 30, 2009 at 1:31 am

    Congratulations, George. You are the first person on this site that I can genuinely say I wouldn’t mind never talking to ever again. However, I’ll still think about you from time to time, wondering if you ever figured it out.

  • 86. Mystery Porcupine  |  September 30, 2009 at 2:00 am

    Just imagine the quality conversations we could have if proselytizing and threatening were prohibited (moderated out of conversations) on this site. People could actually help one another, relate similar experiences, and share different points of view without all of this nonsense.

  • 87. The de-Convert  |  September 30, 2009 at 2:48 am

    Mystery,

    Consider it done :)

    Paul

  • 88. GeorgeZ  |  September 30, 2009 at 7:28 am

    Just imagine the quality conversations we could have if proselytizing and threatening were prohibited (moderated out of conversations) on this site. People could actually help one another, relate similar experiences, and share different points of view without all of this nonsense

    Thanks, Mystery, Joshua. By the way Joshua, appreciate that you will think of me from time to time. I suggest you think of me every time you hear Israel in the news. Especially when Obama and the clowns in the UN are forcing Israel to give up more land for peace lie.

    Think of me everytime you hear that Jerusalem seems to be a major sticking point for peace. I do not know if Israel is going to attack Iran, if they do, I will be thinking of you.

    Israel is the key to what will bring down the curtin on this 7,000 year play.

    PEOPLE IN THIIS POST SEEM SO SHOCKED TO BE CALLED A FOOL, WHY IS THAT?

    There is no new news in telling people, especially “de conversion”
    members, the verse that states, “The fool has said in his heart, their is no god.”

    Not just the God of the Bible, but NO god.

    It is interesting how you have formed your own church. I could suggest a few names. How about The Church of the Blind Leading the Blind, or maybe The Church of the, “I Hope We Have Not Been Fooled By Satan Club. You are looking forward to an eternal membership.

    You are eternal if you understand it or not. Amazing how 3 to 5% of the population of the planet are smart enough to figure this out.

  • 89. LeoPardus  |  September 30, 2009 at 11:03 am

    Well, paleale, you get the award for being the most rude of the atheists.

    imaginary being damn you paleale. I wanted that honor.

    But George is certainly well on his way to winning “most rude of the theists”. At least we know he doesn’t follow a “loving god”.

    George, you should learn to use quotes or something to separate what someone else has said from your response. It would clarify things immensely. But then, clarity doesn’t appear to be something you’re into. Maybe the 60’s weren’t good to you?

    Lile the Bible states,

    Is that any relation to Lyle the friendly Viking?

    Spelling, grammar, and syntax would help too George. I won’t ask you to use/learn logical thought though. That’s beyond you.

    You have idiots in this conversation who want to equate the myth of Greek gods, with Jesus Christ.

    We have an idiot in this conversation who knows next to zip about the Greek myths.

    Others who say Jesus Christ never existed.

    Ever read FF Bruce’s book on extrabiblical sources for Jesus? Mind you Bruce was a Christian scholar.

    I am sure you all were Obama voters.

    Actually not asswipe. [Can anyone tell that I'm getting less tolerant of this moron? Actually 'moron' is the wrong word. 'Moron' means IQ below 70. George is probably about 85-90.]

    Stay tuned, he does not have a clue, way over his head. He is becoming a the clown of world wide politics. I am sure he is your man.

    If you read a paper or were at all informed, you’d know how far off the mark you are here.

    All of you fit into the same mold, predictable. Condone homosexuality, abortion, a womens right to choose,

    Says a man who has taken no effort at all to get to know anything about anyone here. You just knuckle drag your troll but in here and start roaring and swinging your club. FYI, I’ve piped up many times about the dangers of male homosexual activity; I’m staunchly against abortion; I support a woman’s right to choose to sleep with someone if she wants to and use birth control if she likes, but if a child is conceived, she has no right to murder it.

    This is casting pearls before swine.

    Good point. The bible says you are not to do that. So go away.

  • 90. LeoPardus  |  September 30, 2009 at 11:08 am

    I did go back and forth about whether or not George Z should be allowed to stay for amusement purposes. But he has waaaaay crossed the line.

    One thing’s for sure: he is the ugliest, rudest, angriest, most hate-filled theist I’ve ever seen come in here. I’d even go so far as to call him evil.

    If he shows up again, under a new name, I say we spot him and ban him instantly. EVEN IF HE APOLOGIZES! I say that last because he would only use a pretended apology to gain time to post more ugliness.

    And if he shows up in any article of mine, I’ll simply delete his posts. For now, I’ll leave his stuff here as an example to all.

  • 91. Joe  |  September 30, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Leo—

    #76 :)

  • 92. Mystery Porcupine  |  September 30, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Paul – thanks for agreeing to handle the situation.

    I think George certainly brings out the worst in most of us. So then, not only are his preaching posts a pain to read, but so are our responses. See, I would prefer if people didn’t come here to call us idiots and vipers and such. But if we start calling him names, I suppose he has a right to fling the mud back. Are we back in middle school?

    I guess this situation is good practice for what I will encounter if and when I start telling more people where I stand. It is helping me to think of good responses. I won’t always have the great intellectual material you guys have, but there are other things…

    General responses to damning statements:
    * Well, THAT was unnecessary.
    * It’s sad that you think your God wants you to talk to me that way.
    * Bless you (as if maybe the person sneezed a demon out).
    * Can we discuss this over tea? [I might as well get some enjoyment out of damnation.]
    * Do you have a light? I never was a smoker, but I should probably start practicing.
    * Sorry to cut you off, but I have decided that I don’t discuss religion with people anymore. It’s very personal.
    * No, I don’t see it that way, but thank you for sharing. Would you like a hug?

    I find that I only get annoyed when I am not at peace within myself with something that has been brought up. So George has taught me a lot. I have learned it is really hard to have Scripture thrown at me in a damning way, because I loved Scripture for so long. It’s very interesting to go from being on the beloved side of the Bible-God to the hated side. But that has nothing to do with George, and to get annoyed with him misses the point. I’d rather learn why I react a certain way so that I can react more pleasantly the next time. :) Just because someone else lets religion get them all out of sorts doesn’t mean I have to do the same.

    I am still very much for comment moderation when necessary. ;)

  • 93. Joe  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    I know the conversation is basically over above but I did want to state one thing. George said that if Jesus was in here he would call everyone “a generation of vipers” (#80).

    Jesus did call the Pharisees a “generation of Vipers”, but that was because they were “hypocrits”. No one in here is being hypocritical as far as I can tell. They are flat out stating that they do not believe any more. Jesus’ anger was aimed at hypocrisy far more than unbelief.

    At the end of John 6 it says that “many turned back and followed Jesus no more”. There is no record there of Jesus castigating them, or calling them names for turning away. He simply said to those remaining disciples, “Will you also go away?”

    I just wanted to share that point because I think it is important.

  • 94. societyvs  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Isn’t by banning him you are playing into his mentality of ‘persecution’? He will take the slight of being banned as a sign of being right (it’s really a no win)…or persecuted = being right (for some reason).

    George is obstinate is all it is. Likely even in the church he attends he is the minority opinion…not saying much for his stance in the first place. This is a person, by his own admission, that is filled with pride and has ‘years on all of us’…and is from a time and place in Christianity when reason was considered an after thought.

    That being said, he never answered me back – he went straight to ‘judgment mode’ when he ‘couldn’t get his way’.

  • 95. The de-Convert  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    He’s not banned. Comments will go into moderation queue and have to be approved :) The purpose of the site is to develop a community of de-converts. Always have to balance this with genuinely answering inquiries from Christians trying to understand why we de-converted and their sincere attempts to give us the “golden nugget” that will cause us to see the light. However, there is a line there :)

  • 96. Joshua  |  September 30, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    You know, after this conversation it has occurred to me what an unusual lot of fellows we are. I like this.

  • 97. HeIsSailing  |  September 30, 2009 at 2:28 pm

    Joe says:
    Jesus did call the Pharisees a “generation of Vipers”, but that was because they were “hypocrits”….

    That is a good point Joe. I was thinking that myself, but I decided not to prolong the discussion with the troll. George, nor anyone else, has any idea what Jesus would say in any given situation. When people say this, they are just projecting their own words and thoughts into Jesus’ mouth.

  • 98. Joe  |  September 30, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    To quote the movie Billy Madison “What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.”
    (#81)

    Blue—

    Thanks for sharing that. Every time I’ve seen that movie that line just does me in. It and the line the old lady says after Bill Madison makes peeing your pants “cool”. The old lady says “If peeing your pants is cool I’m Miles Davis!” LOL

  • 99. Joe  |  September 30, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Billy Madison, not “bill”

  • 100. Joe  |  September 30, 2009 at 3:18 pm

    Hels (#97)—

    Very true. I noticed I spelled hypocrits wrong though—it should be hypocrites. :)

  • 101. paleale  |  September 30, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    Well, first I’d like to thank God not existing so I could have the honor of this award. I (sniff) never thought I’d ever get the Rudest Atheist award. I’ve worked for years trying to get over that hump and I finally made it! I’d also like to thank George for always pushing me to excel and all the other people who kept pounding away at me, but–ah.. I’d also like to give a shout out to all the (DAH DAAAAAAAH DAH DAAAAH, DAH DAAAAAAAH DAH DAAAAH, DAH DAAAAAAH DAH DAAAAH DAH DAAAAAAAAAHHH…)

  • 102. paleale  |  September 30, 2009 at 9:05 pm

    Kidding aside, I’m usually a pretty patient guy. But when someone comes into our house and starts bullying us and abusing us despite our efforts to be polite and reasonable, then continuing to antagonize and belittle going on and on and on, I can only take so much. George was being a tool. Plain and simple. You guys tried to engage him on a reasonable level but there was absolutely no dialogue with the guy.

    I kind of felt defensive for everybody here.

    Sorry for the name calling.

  • 103. Lucian  |  October 1, 2009 at 8:51 am

    Leo,

    You ignore wonders when they do happen, because of Your belief that they must constantly happen. — I’m sorry, but that’s not the way to handle facts or evidence.

    And no, my phrases weren’t self-contradictory (as any man who is not into pointless polemics can clearly see). — Look, I’m sorry, did my use of the general term “all” confuse You? (It obviosuly didn’t, but You chose to act like You were confused, and not only that, but used this further for unwarranted name-calling).

    When You’re prepared for serious conversation, let me know. Ok?

  • 104. LeoPardus  |  October 1, 2009 at 10:29 am

    When You’re prepared for serious conversation, let me know. Ok?

    I can’t even begin to imagine what that would look like for you. I mean I’ve read Lewis Carroll and always thought he was on a drug trip. Maybe your mind works like his.
    It’s not for no reason that I’ve seen you called “the weirdest character I’ve ever encountered on the internet”.

  • 105. Mel  |  October 1, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Leo, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder, do you? In reading the post on de conversion I am wondering why the ugliness?

    People have the right to believe what they will, correct?

    I have legitimate questions, but I do not sense the dialogue would be constructive, nor beneficial.

  • 106. LeoPardus  |  October 1, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Mel:

    I respond badly to people who are continuously illogical, thoughtless, deliberately obscure or obtuse, and so on. I also have a definitely straight on method of engaging in any debate. By my figuring, if you can’t handle someone subjecting your opinions to all manner of scrutiny, what is your opinion worth.

    In the interest of fairness, I am not at all merciful with my own opinions. The reason I stopped being a creationist was that I attacked my own beliefs and they fell. The reason I no longer believe in christianity is that I subjected my beliefs to unflinching scrutiny and they couldn’t hold up. The reason I am not a political liberal, conservative, or moderate is that none of those held up consistently under withering fire.

    I don’t have a chip, I just have this odd drive to know what is true about everything. And that drive is strong. As for ugliness; if someone comes in here all full of themselves and trollish, I figure that’s how they want to be treated. If they want peaceful discourse, they can set the tone.

    People do have the right to believe what they want. If they choose to tell me about those beliefs – especially in a forum that is designed for discussion and debate – they DO NOT have a right to have me glibly accept those beliefs. If you want that, go to a forum that is made to agree with your beliefs.

    So that said, you sound like you’d be the sort to ask honest questions and conduct civil debate. I quite enjoy that, so please feel free. If in the course of such discussion, you feel that you are being civil and I am not, say so. Usually I’ll admit it if I get out of line; and the other folks on this site are not afraid so pipe in and say, “Leo. You’re the one who’s whacked here.”

  • 107. societyvs  |  October 2, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    LOL @ Paleale – good comment!

  • 108. Anonymous  |  November 13, 2009 at 9:30 pm

    But by letting everyone die, God DID cure the sicknesses and gave everyone food even better than what they hoped for. They were sent to heaven.

    DUH.

    Even a caveman could figure it out :/ Why not you?

  • 109. Tara  |  November 13, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    But by letting everyone die, God did cure the sicknesses and gave everyone food better than they ever hoped for. They were sent to heaven, a better place than earth.

    DUH.

    Even a caveman could figure that out. Why not you? :/

  • 110. Joshua  |  November 14, 2009 at 12:33 am

    ugh, why we live on earth then? why not god make heaven first.

  • 111. CheezChoc  |  November 15, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Hey, Ugh, you’re about half a step above those guys in Quest For Fire. :)

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Attention Christian Readers

Just in case you were wondering who we are and why we de-converted.

de-conversion wager

Whether or not you believe in God, you should live your life with love, kindness, compassion, mercy and tolerance while trying to make the world a better place. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will have made a positive impact on those around you. If there is a benevolent God reviewing your life, you will be judged on your actions and not just on your ability to blindly believe in creeds- when there is a significant lack of evidence on how to define God or if he/she even exists.

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